Well, you can't really blame Paizo or the design of the system for what a 3rd party publisher puts out. I've been diving into a lot of them, and some are much better than others at "getting" the feel of the design philosophy of the game.
Well, you can't really blame Paizo or the design of the system for what a 3rd party publisher puts out. I've been diving into a lot of them, and some are much better than others at "getting" the feel of the design philosophy of the game.
Looks at the file. Oops. I didn't actually realize that it wasn't an official release. I think I saw it on the front page when I clicked it, too. *sigh* Oh, well. Yeah, after fumbling around with Mongoose crap, I've learned to avoid 3rd party stuff. I thought those bloodlines and feats looked fishy.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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Well, you can't really blame Paizo or the design of the system for what a 3rd party publisher puts out. I've been diving into a lot of them, and some are much better than others at "getting" the feel of the design philosophy of the game.
I agree. Some of them are quite good and others are a little on the sub-par side.
My impression is that, roughly speaking, one natural attack is on par with one feat.
So two claws would be ~= 2 feats, but given you already have an ability that's 2 claws a limited time per day...
I really think paying a single feat to have the claws 'at will' seems completely fair.
Howdy, all,
First off:
LordGriffin,
I love that you are playing more of an idea than an optimized build. I'm a huge fan of that myself, even if it leaves you a bit underpowered in some areas, its way more fun in the long run.
I read most all the posts (skimmed a few =P) and I didnt see anyone post/ask if you have discussed using the battle sorcerer variant (Unearthed Arcana iirc). This variant is very well balanced, i know from personal experience because i've played it myself.
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For those that arent familiar, the basic gist is this
BaB progression of cleric
d8 hp rather than d4 (D&D)/d6 (pfrpg)
proficiency/no casting penalties in light armor
proficiency with a single light/one handed Martial Weapon
-1 spell/day slot per spell level (min 0)
-1 spell known per spell level (min 0)
remove bluff and add intimidate to class skills
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Sorcerer_Variant:_Battle_Sorcerer
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Anyway, this variant would get rid of some of your magical adaptability in place of being able to actually use your melee ability a bit more, which it sounds like it may fit with your idea more, especially since you said you are going to veer away from "blasting" or "direct damage spells".
also, i know a few folks mentioned doing away with the claws' limited rounds per day issue (4+cha is not nearly enough for my tastes, too). you could get rid of the rounds per day and have them at will, i dont think this would be game breaking. but, in spirit with having a character concept that is more about roleplaying and embodying your concept, i have always found that ~some~ limitations really make you care more about your character because you have to take more stock in them.
one of the other posters mentioned having the 4+cha being how many times you can "summon" your claws per day. This would be a good way to go about using them. Another alternative would be changing the "rounds per day" to "Minutes per day" and making it so you have to spend the "minutes" in 1 minute incraments, thus giving you a number of good combats per day where you can rely on them, but you would still have to be conscious of how much you did in case your "minutes per day" ran out.
Regarding taking the "weapon focus", if i were DM'ing, i dont think i would have a problem with you doing "weapon focus: yourself" so you could apply it to both your claws and hands. Again, huge flavor without breaking the game is a very good thing. Another alternative would be wearing gauntlets (spiked maybe to look like claws, but still function as spiked/regular gauntlets) so you could still attack unarmed when you are out of claws/day usage. Maybe make them "open fingered" so you can summon the claws with them still on (maybe with a penalty similar to wearing a buckler or something to represent the weight difference with them on).
Also, excellent feat choices (at the risk of sounding like optimizing, which i'm not trying to do) would indeed be "improved natural attack". Bumping those up one claw size would make you a bit more self reliant/capable in combat.
Dont bother with Multi attack, as you pointed out you dont really have penalties to using claws/bite anyway.
From a DM point of view, i dont think i would have a problem with you making drawing your claws out durring an AoO. Again, not game breaking, but very good for story telling. Maybe your DM will allow you to do it "for free" should you take improved initiative or combat reflexes to show your "quick twitch" muscle mastery or something if he wouldnt let you do it otherwise.
Another feat you may want to take is "Arcane Strike". This would let you dole out just a bit more damage that would scale with you because your claws ~will~ lag behind before long, but that feat would help to limit that dragging.
Just remember, with the melee you are thinking of doing, that dragons also have lots of magic, so dont be afraid to whip out some nasty spells in the middle of combat (combat casting may be a necessity depending on how you play =P). for that, you may want to focus on spells that embody your dragon's choice. For example, if you do a White Dragon draconic bloodline, focus on Chill Touch/cone of cold/etc to really play it up. It may limit your functionality a bit, but sure does make for better roleplaying that if you did the same dragon bloodline and started firing off fireball or lightning bolt or something.
Other spells like "enlarge person", "rage", "transformation (much later)", etc can also close the gap between your melee and that of a dedicated melee'er (haste as well will be a godsend).
Anyway, sorry if i jumped around a bit. i'm low on sleep and i dont think my caffeen has kicked in yet =P
Oh, oh, also, i know it didnt really fit your idea as well, but the druid idea that was posted before may be a route you could take as well if you can talk to your DM and see if you could do Dragon shapes (wyrmling, young, etc) rather than animal/plant/elemental shapes. It would take a lot of work with your DM to balance it out and work out the kinks, but that may be a fun option for you as well. I mention this in large part because of the elemental nature of the druid's spells and abilities like "thousand faces" which fit perfectly with a dragon's identity (just imagine you asuming any humanoid shape, just like your grandpappy dragon!). Again, i know it doesnt fit as well with your idea, but there is a lot you can do if your DM is willing to work with you.
Congrats on playing the character you want to play and not what will dish out the best results in "X" situation. Optimized playing ~can~ be fun, but i definately prefer playing the idea a lot more.
Hope that helps ^_^
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I am currently running a RotRL campaign in which the PCs are now level 5 (just about to face off with the Skinsaw Man) and one of the characters is a barbarian 1/dragon sorcerer 4 going for DD. We currently use the limited use per day claws, but starting at sorcerer level 5, the same level they start counting as magical weapons, he will gain unlimited use. We figured that gaining this ability at 5th level would eliminate any danger of "dipping" and still allow him the thematic abilities he wanted.
Thus far the character usually uses his earthbreaker, and is the premier damagedealer of the party. He has a 14 Str, 16 Con, 13 Cha. He also acts as a secondary tank, especially now that he has Mage Armor. Even before that, while he was easy to hit he had a lot of meat. Seeing this character use Enlarge Person, rage, and power attack (and now Bull's Strength!) and scoring a critical hit with his earthbreaker to nearly one-hit the highest hp critter the party has yet faced makes me think that, optimization or not, sorcerers when properly built can be viable melee threats. He also pulls out the wand of magic missile when dealing with incorporeal creatures, and sometimes gets down and dirty with his claws as well. In fact, in a fight against the boss of the first adventure, I allowed him to cast shocking grasp on both hands (bronze bloodline) then attack for 1d4+4+2d6+2 damage with each claw. (3rd level at the time). It was a pretty cool visual, and has not caused any balance problems.
Hope this little excerpt was helpful.
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If only there was a feat in the Advanced Player's Guide, that would allow the Sorcerer to use his claws at will... and perhaps a feat chain that would increase the amount of rays and then allow the at-will laser show.
My own version of such a feat (which could be adapted easily enough to work for Claws as well);
Deep Reserves
You constantly train to use your Domain, Bloodline or Specialization school offensive abilities more frequently and striking with greater force.
Prerequisites: Cleric or Druid who has chosen the Air, Earth, Fire, Water or Weather Domain, Sorcerer with the Aberrant, Celestial or Elemental Bloodline or Wizard of the Conjuration, Evocation or Transmutation Specialization.
Benefits: You can use any of the following attacks; Lightning Arc, Acid Dart (Earth Domain), Fire Bolt, Icicle, Storm Burst, Acidic Ray, Heavenly Fire, Elemental Ray, Acid Dart (Conjuration Specialist), Force Missile or Telekinetic Fist, one additional time per day for each level you have in the class that granted that ability. Additionally, you always inflict bonus damage equal to your Intelligence (if a Wizard), Wisdom (if a Cleric or Druid) or Charisma (if a Sorcerer) modifier with these attacks.
Special: If you have multiple abilities of this sort (access to the Air and Water Domains, or levels in both Fire-Domain Cleric and Celestial Sorcerer, for instance), you can use this training with any applicable class abilities, but must use the relevant ability modifier for each classes granted abilities.
A similar feat could improve the damage potential, to make a Sorcerer into a third-rate Warlock (although it might appear funky to extend this Feat to the Claws power...).
Spell Burn
You can increase the damage of your domain, bloodline or specialization attacks by sacrificing spell slots or prepared spells.
Prerequisites: Cleric or Druid who has chosen the Air, Earth, Fire, Water or Weather Domain, Sorcerer with the Aberrant, Celestial or Elemental Bloodline or Wizard of the Conjuration, Evocation or Transmutation Specialization.
Benefit: As a move-equivalent action you can sacrifice a single prepared spell (or single spell slot) from the appropriate classes spellcasting ability to increase the potency of one of the following attacks; Lightning Arc, Acid Dart (Earth Domain), Fire Bolt, Icicle, Storm Burst, Acidic Ray, Heavenly Fire, Elemental Ray, Acid Dart (Conjuration Specialist), Force Missile or Telekinetic Fist by one die per level of the spell (or slot) sacrificed. The die is the same size as the base damage (1d6 for a Fire Bolt, 1d4 for a Force Missile), and only one die per spell level sacrificed is gained, even if the base damage is higher (such as the 2d6 nonlethal damage of Storm Burst). If the base damage is nonlethal, all extra dice are also nonlethal. If the attack has a secondary effect, such as the -2 to penalty to attack rolls imposed by Storm Burst, the duration is increased to rounds equal to the level of the spell sacrificed (which means that a sacrificed 1st level spell will not increase the duration from its base of 1 round, although it will add one extra die of damage normally).
Special: If you have multiple abilities of this sort (access to the Air and Water Domains, or levels in both Fire-Domain Cleric and Celestial Sorcerer, for instance), you can use this training with any applicable class abilities, but cannot 'burn' spells from the spell lists of other classes to fuel these enhanced attacks unless you are a Mystic Theurge, in which case you can use divine spells to augment
Bloodline or Specialization attacks or arcane spells to enhance Domain attacks, up to the level of your Combined Spells class feature (or any level at all, once you reach 10th level in that prestige class).
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As for the Claws thing, if you really hate Claws, take advantage of the idea of an Alternate Class Feature (name not OGL, so call it a 'Class Exchange' if you want), to swap out Claws for something that better fits your concept.
Abyssal (replaces Claws)
Chaos Lightning (Sp): As a standard action, you can cause chortling bruise-colored bolts of writhing lightning to converge from all directions on a single target within 30 ft. as a ranged touch attack inflicting 1d6 electrical damage +1 hit point per 2 class levels. A target with the Law or Good type is also Sickened for one round by these energies. You can use this ability a number of times equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Draconic (replaces Claws)
Deadly Spittle (Sp): As a standard action, you can spit forth a bolt of destructive power similar to the breath weapon of your chosen dragon type at a single target within 30 ft. as a ranged touch attack inflicting 1d6 acid, cold, electrical or fire (as appropriate) damage +1 hit point per 2 class levels. You can use this ability a number of times equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Or, for those other touch attacks you don't want to use;
Infernal (replaces Corrupting Touch)
Fires Down Below (Sp): As a standard action, you can target a single target within 30 ft. as a ranged touch attack with an oily reddish-black clot of flame that erupts around it inflicting 1d6 fire damage +1 hit point per 2 class levels. A target with the Chaos or Good type is also Shaken for one round by these energies. You can use this ability a number of times equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Undead (replaces Grave Touch)
Shadow Strike (Sp): As a standard action, you can direct a moaning shadowy form to strike at a single target within 30 ft. as a ranged touch attack inflicting 1d6 negative energy damage +1 hit point per 2 class levels. An Undead creature targeted by this effect is instead healed of an equal amount of damage, but cannot benefit from your healing more than once per day. You can use this ability a number of times equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.
Heck, if there's any Sorcerer Bloodline I'd *want* to have Claws (or slashing non-euclidean finger tendrils or whatever), it would probably be the Aberrant Bloodline, since Claws would at least synergize with Long Limbs (unlike Acidic Ray, which is just wasted there).
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Sorcerer. Bloodline granted claw attacks. Flaming claws even. Damage? Minimal. Purpose? In my own opinion...what better way to pimp slap a recalcitrant minion back into line than with three inch claws that suddenly popped out of my fingers, all glowing with eerie green flames? I am sure, to the OP, that with perseverance, you can kitbash something that will let you set the claws up to be the melee monster you said you wanted your Sorc to be. For me. claws on a character like that are all about flavor, impression and intimidation. That stubborn minion will think twice before stepping out of line again when he thinks about the nice new scars he has running across his cheek. ^^
Why? Because it's powerful for the level you get it at.
Look at it this way. For 3+Cha rounds per day, you're effectively getting Improved Unarmed Strike (doing 1d4, not 1d3), AND Two Weapon Fighting (without attack penalties, or a Flurry of Blows without penalty).
And it gets better. At 5th level, your claws are magic - you have a magic weapon that can't be disarmed. Further on it gets more damage and then gets extra magical damage.
Now, as you go up in level it becomes less attractive, but that's pretty much true of all 1st level bonus abilities - check out 'Heavenly Fire' for the Celestial Bloodline. Great at 1st level. Not so much at 10th level.
So the design philosophy for 1st level powers (Sorcerer and Wizard) seems to be: "Give them something nifty and strong at 1st level, but doesn't scale up (as well) as they gain levels*." I can see the logic behind this, as low level wizards and sorcerers are WEAK and needed the boost. At mid level these characters are no longer weak and no longer need boosting, so the power tails off.
So again, to answer "Why?": because it's very good for a 1st level power, that's why. And in my opinion, it's a defensive power more than an offensive one - best used when someone steps up to you to force you to cast defensively. You pop the claws and rip them up. At very low levels, it should be fairly effective, if you have a halfway decent STR (never understood why people neglect STR on arcane spellcasters - I like being able to carry gear without being medium load or worse). You're right, you don't want to get into melee as a sorcerer - but if you can't avoid it, those with Claws have an ace in the hole. Like when you get swallowed whole.
And since you asked for opinions, yes, I think it's both fair and reasonably balanced. I agree that focusing on this ability isn't really a viable option. Any more than focusing on any other 1st level Sorcerer power would be, I guess. If you want flavor for your Draconic bloodline, choose the feats listed as bonus feats for your bloodline (as regular feats). That would be flavorful.
Me, I'm still miffed that humans lost their free Martial Weapon Proficiency. Shoot.
* There are exceptions, of course. The Diviner Wizard power keeps getting better at a steady rate, for example.
Actually it isnt that powerful for the level you get it at. A 1st level sorc gets 2 1d4 attacks at +0 and +0. At level 2 its still +0 and +0. At 1st level a monk with their flurry of blows gets 1d6 attacks at -1,-1. A monk or 2 weapon fighter quickly outpaces a sorc's claws. The ability has a penalty included, that penalty just appears in your BAB instead of the ability. And like i said previously the claw attacks are completely useless unless you invest in them. Strength is a dump stat for casters. Casting stat, con, dex, int(if not casting stat) are all more important. Whether or not you understand why people dump strength, they do, and they should. And unless you have a HIGH strength your claw attacks are not going to hit anything.
All the other 1st level abilities that either sorcs or wizards get are things casters do already. Touch attacks, or ranged touch attacks, these are things that are often done in spells. No investment is needed beyond what is needed for those kinds of spells. A straight melee attack requires additional investment to be viable. Additional investment should yield additional return, which is why i disagree with the 3+cha times per day for this particular ability.
As for it improving, so do lots of other abilities. The 5th level ability to be considered magic, the monk gets that at 4th level and their's is a d8 at a higher to hit then the sorc by level 5(if they have the same attack stat which is unlikely).
To the OP, I have now played a couple sessions with a Dragon Sorc 5 Dragon disciple 5, with unlimited claw/bite use. I get more attack but less damage then the 2handing barbarian, and the two weapon fighter rogue mix way outdamages and outhits me. I really dont think there are any power problems with making it unlimited uses per day.
GMs in both games have house ruled that the Claws are permanent, mainly due to the fact that I made the builds during BETA and they just wouldn't have worked as well under PFRPG Rules, but also because they agreed with me that not having them full time was silly, especially since the damage got a Nerf.Wait, these characters have actually been played!? THIS is exactly what I wanted to hear about! Dragonblooded sorcerers that focus on their claws! Can you tell me more about how it went? Were these characters effective enough? Were they too effective? Did having multiple attacks at your full bonus pose problems? Did the other players feel that you were stealing their spotlights? I'm very curious.
While mine doesn't focus on his claws he is working towards arcane trickster and frequently uses them. It's going to be tough going if you are trying to use the claws every round. A second melee weapon is a requirement. One possibility is to go with a half orc sorcerer then you have a good backup weapon with the falchion. Elves have longsword but they don't get the CHA bump and the hit to CON will hurt.
So less obvious thoughts ->
Probably the most important thing is if you are a sorcerer your class ability is spell casting. You are never going to be dishing out the damage fighters or barbarians are dishing out. If you multi class or go Dragon Disciple you can do Ok as a caster
I'm learning more and more to make to I read all of Kolokotroni's posts. You make some excellent points. The main one being, of course, that every other 1st level ability is something that caster do anyway. Giving an ability that's difficult for the class to focus on really should have greater perks than otherwise.
To everybody who's still suggesting builds ... I don't mind if you're suggesting builds in a general sense, but I take offense if you're suggesting them to me personally. Here's the thing. Due to reasons of role playing, my race is already chosen for me. With anything less than Polymorph Any Oject, I don't have a choice in the matter. What is that race? I'm not telling because I don't want to be advised on how to optimize it. What I DO want (if this topic is still pertinent) is conversation relating to the balance and/or utility of the claw attack in general. Actual play experience would be the bread and butter of this topic.
If you want to discuss "character build", please do so with "balancing claws to make them usable" (or similar) in mind.
You know, not everyone is obsessed with character optimisation and not everybody thinks that role-playing should come second to character creation.
That said, unless you can pop those claws with the PF equivalent of an immediate action, you can't make claw attacks as an AoO unless they were already out in your action.
Actually it isnt that powerful for the level you get it at. A 1st level sorc gets 2 1d4 attacks at +0 and +0. At level 2 its still +0 and +0. At 1st level a monk with their flurry of blows gets 1d6 attacks at -1,-1. A monk or 2 weapon fighter quickly outpaces a sorc's claws.
I agree that monks do better unarmed than clawed sorcerers. This is a no brainer ^_^.
However, giving a monk-lite hand to hand power to a sorcerer is a strong addition to a sorcerer AT LOW LEVEL. The 'zap' powers of many bloodlines (or schools for wizards) offer little they couldn't get just by using a bow (elf), crossbow, or in some cases a thrown dagger.
Sure, Ranged Touch Attack is better than just ranged attack, but crossbows do more damage (esp. at low level) and have MUCH higher range.
Claws give you something a ranged attack doesn't - an extra melee attack on a full attack. It's worse than a monk's flurry, sure, but it beats stabbing with a dagger or swinging a club - even when you get into iterative attacks (two attacks at full BaB, or one at BaB and one at BaB -5 - you choose), unless you've got a +X dagger of something/something/something/etcetera.
And yeah, it sucks that you have to really invest in it to get the most out of it, but I'd argue that investing in Strength is of such benefit to casters that no-one should cry over having to take more Strength...I like carrying stuff...
OTOH, claws DO benefit from STR bonus, unlike other character's zap powers. So if you plan on playing a STR endowed sorcerer, claws by default get better. Zap powers get a slow, static damage increase by level. Claws get new features like bypassing magic damage reduction, and an added elemental damage.
Also, claws are and Extraordinary ability. They work in anti-magic fields (a small benefit to be sure). They DON'T provoke attacks of opportunity, however, which all the other 'zap' powers, being Spell-Like Abilities, do.
But I'll stand by my contention that a power that gives you functionally THREE limited feats is a strong one:
A.) Improved Unarmed Strike (1d4 even)
B.) Two Weapon Fighting (no penalty)
C.) Quick Draw
Nothing is going to turn a Sorcerer into an unarmed killing machine...nothing should. I, as a GM, wouldn't crap my pants if someone wanted unlimited claws...but I wouldn't do that if they wanted unlimited Acidic Rays or Heavenly Fire or whatnot. Like I said, better off with a crossbow. But at 1st level, this combination of feats rolled into a power is a strong melee buff for the sorcerer...and that's why it's limited uses per day.
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I'm learning more and more to make to I read all of Kolokotroni's posts. You make some excellent points. The main one being, of course, that every other 1st level ability is something that caster do anyway. Giving an ability that's difficult for the class to focus on really should have greater perks than otherwise.
To everybody who's still suggesting builds ... I don't mind if you're suggesting builds in a general sense, but I take offense if you're suggesting them to me personally. Here's the thing. Due to reasons of role playing, my race is already chosen for me. With anything less than Polymorph Any Oject, I don't have a choice in the matter. What is that race? I'm not telling because I don't want to be advised on how to optimize it. What I DO want (if this topic is still pertinent) is conversation relating to the balance and/or utility of the claw attack in general. Actual play experience would be the bread and butter of this topic.
If you want to discuss "character build", please do so with "balancing claws to make them usable" (or similar) in mind.
Shortly in a PBP game I am in, my 6 sorcerer(silver dragon)/ 3 Dragon disciple will be charging into battle ; ) This will be my test of the concept. I am like you, in that I choose to roleplay over min/max weird class mixing just to get extra stuff. My character is a gnome too, so even more crappy to optimizers (fits his background perfectly though). He's enlarged, so will have a medium sized test of exactly how effective the claws and bite can be in real play. We are in Abaddon though so my his demise may be at hand! lol
Also, claws are and Extraordinary ability. They work in anti-magic fields (a small benefit to be sure). They DON'T provoke attacks of opportunity, however, which all the other 'zap' powers, being Spell-Like Abilities, do.
But I'll stand by my contention that a power that gives you functionally THREE limited feats is a strong one:
A.) Improved Unarmed Strike (1d4 even)
B.) Two Weapon Fighting (no penalty)
C.) Quick DrawNothing is going to turn a Sorcerer into an unarmed killing machine...nothing should. I, as a GM, wouldn't crap my pants if someone wanted unlimited claws...but I wouldn't do that if they wanted unlimited Acidic Rays or Heavenly Fire or whatnot. Like I said, better off with a crossbow. But at 1st level, this combination of feats rolled into a power is a strong melee buff for the sorcerer...and that's why it's limited uses per day.
A power that does nothing without significant investment out of the ordinary is not powerful. If 1st level fighters got 'magical knack' which gave them eschew materials, scribe scrolls, and skill focus spell craft, that is not a 'powerful ability'. That is however 3 feats. And it will give just about the same amount of benefit to a normally built sorcerer (without much of a strength score which despite your insistence is what is typical, sorcerers have little to nothing to carry, unless you use lead clothing). Claws that don't hit anything dont mean anything, and are not 'powerful'.
Giving a class a bunch of feats counter their normal strengths is not the same as giving them to a class in which the feats mesh well. The fact that a sorcerer has to change their focus considerably to make the feats useful makes the ability far less powerful. You are taking it out of context. Put it into context of the class the ability is given to and it is not 3 feats, it is 2 relatively weak attacks that are easily surpassed by classes that actually are meant to hit things.
not too mention you can already do a monk dip for much the same effect anyway. don't see why dipping sorcerer instead would be such a big deal.
I agree, this is just needless complication, and gimpification of an abilility they can't really use that well anyway.
A.) Improved Unarmed Strike (1d4 even)
B.) Two Weapon Fighting (no penalty)
C.) Quick Draw
TWF=/=Claws
You do not gain additional attacks as your base attack increases, and you already have the worse base attack progression possible!
A.) Improved Unarmed Strike (1d4 even)
B.) Two Weapon Fighting (no penalty)
C.) Quick Draw
A.)You have 1/2 BAB
B.)You will likely either have a low strength OR a low casting statThen there's Treantmonk's point about TWF. Unless you get extra damage per attack (like rogues), you're not better off with two, weaker weapons. 2d4+double strength at most? A two-handed weapon might do at least as well!
While I really do appreciate Helic's points, I think that Kolokotroni is making better counterpoints. And Treantmonk who hasn't even joined this thread. :)
A.) Improved Unarmed Strike (1d4 even)
B.) Two Weapon Fighting (no penalty)
C.) Quick DrawTWF=/=Claws
You do not gain additional attacks as your base attack increases, and you already have the worse base attack progression possible!
Sigh. Does nobody read the part where I say 'for it's level'?
You get claws at 1st level. At 1st level your BaB is +0. A fighter's BaB is +1. A monk's BaB is +0. With claws, your attack routine is comparable to a fighter, and possibly better than a monks. BUT ONLY AT LOW LEVELS. The other classes outpace it quickly, and they should, as they're melee classes.
Sigh. Does nobody read the part where I say 'for it's level'?/QUOTE]
No, I gotcha. Here's the question, then. What's "it's level"? Or rather, when does it go from "very good" to "decent" to "utter crap"? By level 3, a sorcerer has 2 fewer BAB than a fighting class. At level 5, it's 3 lower and by 6 a fighter has two attacks of his own.
Granted, the claws DO scale with level, but only in terms of damage. Godlike damage does no good with a zero chance to hit. So ... when does this become completely useless, even for those that dump points into strength (or dex and finesse)?
Sigh. Does nobody read the part where I say 'for it's level'?
You get claws at 1st level. At 1st level your BaB is +0. A fighter's BaB is +1. A monk's BaB is +0. With claws, your attack routine is comparable to a fighter, and possibly better than a monks. BUT ONLY AT LOW LEVELS. The other classes outpace it quickly, and they should, as they're melee classes.
First of all a monks flurry BAB is +1 at level 1, not +0 (becoming -1 when flurrying. So in that at least you are not making the correct comparison. Second, I did not miss the part where you said 'for its level'. It just isnt powerful for any level.
At level 1 a typical sorceror will have a strength of 8. The pregen for Seoni in the back of the Council of Thieves is a prime example of this. An average AC for a CR 1 opponent is 14. Seoni at level 1 has a -1 to hit for 1d4-1 damage for 2 claws. With the AC of 14 she requires a roll of a 15 to hit. That is an average of .48 damage per claw attack. Less then 1 damage per round is not a powerful ability and certainly doesnt justify it being a limited number of times per day. That is the point you are ingnoring, it is the context of a sorceror that the ability should be judged and not in general.
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Sigh. Does nobody read the part where I say 'for it's level'?
You get claws at 1st level. At 1st level your BaB is +0. A fighter's BaB is +1. A monk's BaB is +0. With claws, your attack routine is comparable to a fighter, and possibly better than a monks. BUT ONLY AT LOW LEVELS. The other classes outpace it quickly, and they should, as they're melee classes.
First of all a monks flurry BAB is +1 at level 1, not +0 (becoming -1 when flurrying. So in that at least you are not making the correct comparison. Second, I did not miss the part where you said 'for its level'. It just isnt powerful for any level.
At level 1 a typical sorceror will have a strength of 8. The pregen for Seoni in the back of the Council of Thieves is a prime example of this. An average AC for a CR 1 opponent is 14. Seoni at level 1 has a -1 to hit for 1d4-1 damage for 2 claws. With the AC of 14 she requires a roll of a 15 to hit. That is an average of .48 damage per claw attack. Less then 1 damage per round is not a powerful ability and certainly doesnt justify it being a limited number of times per day. That is the point you are ingnoring, it is the context of a sorceror that the ability should be judged and not in general.
If you are building a sorcerer to use claws, you would bump the strength up a little bit. My DD I am playing now has a strength of 16(was 14 at level 1), so that put him on par with a monk at low levels. Now at level 9, he's still alright for me. It all depends on how you play them.
If you are building a sorcerer to use claws, you would bump the strength up a little bit. My DD I am playing now has a strength of 16(was 14 at level 1), so that put him on par with a monk at low levels. Now at level 9, he's still alright for me. It all depends on how you play them.
Oh I agree, my point is that a normal sorceror would not invest in strength and therefore the claws are useless to that str 8 sorceror. You have to invest differently (taking away from areas you normally would put stats and feats) in order to make use of the claws. Which means that the claws ability itself is not as poweful as it appears. An ability that 'gives the results of 3 feats) but requires you to reduce your primary stat in favor of a less important one (reducing con dex or even charisma for strength) and probably needs a feat or two (weapon focus claws, arcane strike, and power attack) in order to work, is not the same as an ability that just gives 3 feats that already work with your class (like flurry of blows). And because you have to invest that extra bit to make the claws work well they should not be subject to a 3+cha per day limit like the other powers.
First of all a monks flurry BAB is +1 at level 1, not +0 (becoming -1 when flurrying. So in that at least you are not making the correct comparison. Second, I did not miss the part where you said 'for its level'. It just isnt powerful for any level.
At level 1 a typical sorceror will have a strength of 8.
That is the point you are ingnoring, it is the context of a sorceror that the ability should be judged and not in general.
Agh, you're right about the BaB of a monk. I forget that flurrying gets the good attack progression. That said, taking a few points of STR is _not_ an onerous investment for a sorcerer, and if you're getting claws, it's all the better.
Off topic, about STR: Ever have to drag unconscious party members out a swamp after a big fight? I have (cleric down). Never again will I take a character with sub-10 STR. It ain't worth it. Also, you can carry more loot home when things go right. Been there too. ^_^
But my estimate of Claws is based mainly on a comparison of all the other first level attack powers given to sorcerers. They're mostly ranged attacks that do pathetic damage (repeat: get a crossbow) - claws gives the sorcerer a melee option that's viable at low levels. It's way better than 'get a dagger'. As far as bloodline bonuses at 1st level, I'd rate claws at #2 (and Arcane Bond at #1).
As to when it starts to suck, that depends highly on the magic items you'd get in a campaign. Once a decently enchanted melee weapon (+3 equivalent?) for the sorcerer shows up, he might as well switch. Going Dragon Disciple changes this a bit, as you add in another attack (bite) and eventually +4 STR. You could easily have a Sor5/DD6 (18STR) with an attack routine of 2D6+6/2D6+4/2D6+4 (though the base damage for bite is unclear, I'm assuming it's 1D6), though only at +6 BaB (which will be +10 due to STR). Nowhere near a 'true melee' class, but hey, you're a Sorcerer - you never will be close to a true melee class in terms of performance. Not even Eldritch Knight offers that (that's another thread...).
An 11th level Sorcerer's Acidic Ray? 1D6+5. An 11th level Sorcerer's Claws? 2D6+STR/2D6+STR. The ray is more likely to hit (touch ranged), the claws get more chances and do equivalent damage (with a chance of doing much more damage). Acid Ray has range, while Claws don't provoke AoO. Claws look like the better choice to me.
[Agh, you're right about the BaB of a monk. I forget that flurrying gets the good attack progression. That said, taking a few points of STR is _not_ an onerous investment for a sorcerer, and if you're getting claws, it's all the better.
For a point buy it is a poor investement normally, as it means less Cha, con, and dex. Even int and wis are more important to a sorceror.
Off topic, about STR: Ever have to drag unconscious party members out a swamp after a big fight? I have (cleric down). Never again will I take a character with sub-10 STR. It ain't worth it. Also, you can carry more loot home when things go right. Been there too. ^_^
This is why there is tensers floating disk, and bags of holding. Even if these arent available, its not the sorceror's job to do this. The fighter/paladin/barbarian should be dragging the cleric out of the swamp. If the sorceror is the one that needs to carry the loot around something is wrong in your party dynamic.
But my estimate of Claws is based mainly on a comparison of all the other first level attack powers given to sorcerers. They're mostly ranged attacks that do pathetic damage (repeat: get a crossbow) - claws gives the sorcerer a melee option that's viable at low levels. It's way better than 'get a dagger'. As far as bloodline bonuses at 1st level, I'd rate claws at #2 (and Arcane Bond at #1).
However all the other 1st level powers represent actions that sorcerors already do. Ranged touch and touch attacks mostly. They are already part of deal. That makes them more valuable compared to claws. In addition claws seem distinctly designed to remain viable longer. Their damage becomes magic, the die increase and then they get energy damage. This happens over a large portion of sorcerors leveling. This does not sound to me like it is in the same line as the 'give the caster something to fill out fights' that the energy bolts and grave touch are.
As to when it starts to suck, that depends highly on the magic items you'd get in a campaign. Once a decently enchanted melee weapon (+3 equivalent?) for the sorcerer shows up, he might as well switch. Going Dragon Disciple changes this a bit, as you add in another attack (bite) and eventually +4 STR. You could easily have a Sor5/DD6 (18STR) with an attack routine of 2D6+6/2D6+4/2D6+4 (though the base damage for bite is unclear, I'm assuming it's 1D6), though only at +6 BaB (which will be +10 due to STR). Nowhere near a 'true melee' class, but hey, you're a Sorcerer - you never will be close to a true melee class in terms of performance. Not even Eldritch Knight offers that (that's another thread...).
Actually a proper built dragon disciple WITH unlimited use of the claw attack is a pretty good meleer when buffed (things like enlarge person and haste). I am playing one right now and am rather satisfied with his melee first approach. The fact that you lose caster levels and gain strength means dragon disciple is a fighting class, not a casting class (or a mix if you will). And this ability you get from it Bite another one that improves at rather high levels, further lending the idea that the claws and bite are not a 'good at low levels' thing, and should be useful through the characters whole career.
An 11th level Sorcerer's Acidic Ray? 1D6+5. An 11th level Sorcerer's Claws? 2D6+STR/2D6+STR. The ray is more likely to hit (touch ranged), the claws get more chances and do equivalent damage (with a chance of doing much more damage). Acid Ray has range, while Claws don't provoke AoO. Claws look like the better choice to me.
For a normal sorceror? Not a chance. Sorcerors want to avoid melee at almost all costs. Not to mention the acidic ray is guaranteed more effective then the claws unless you put alot of resources into the claws, and you will get no other return for that investment. Ranged touch attacks, how many spells are ranged touch? A whole bunch, which means if I do invest more (which i dont have to because touch AC's are rather low most of the time) not only to i improve this acidic ray (higher dex, point blank shot, precise shot), i also improve all of my ranged touch spells. When i improve my claws (strength increase, weapon focus, power attack, arcane strike) i pretty much just improve my claws with the strength adding a little to my chance to hit with touch attacks (which are always a worse choice then ranged touch spell and dont really need the help to hit most of the time.
Lets look at your example shall we? Acidic ray does 1d6+5 damage from a distance with just a standard action. Against a typical level 11 Monster (whose touch AC can be as low as 10) The average of all the CR 11 opponents in the bestiary is 11.7 (lets say 12 shall we?). Sorceror with a 16 dex(which is low for a level 11 sorc since his belt slot ought to be going to a dex item) and has a bab of 5. That is a +8 to hit AC 12. That is an average of 7.6 damage with a single standard action. An average normal AC for a cr ll monster is 24. Same +5 bab and lets give them the benefit of the doubt and say its gotten its strength up to 16 (which is a waste of resources as I said before). He needs a roll of 16 to hit. That is an average of 2.7 damage per claw, so a total of 5.4 damage from a full attack in melee, vs 7.6 from a single standard action at range. 30% less damage on a full attack in melee. So how exactly is the claw a better option for a sorceror?
"Buying STR for a Sorcerer"
For a point buy it is a poor investement normally, as it means less Cha, con, and dex. Even int and wis are more important to a sorceror.
Of course all sorcerers will want CHA/DEX/CON, but the diminishing returns rule of point buy (attribute costs spike above 13) makes spreading points around more attractive. Maybe not the 'most optimal for a zapper', but probably 'more heroic' and definitely 'more versatile'.
This is why there is tensers floating disk, and bags of holding. Even if these arent available, its not the sorceror's job to do this. The fighter/paladin/barbarian should be dragging the cleric out of the swamp. If the sorceror is the one that needs to carry the loot around something is wrong in your party dynamic.
In a 5 man group, the Dwarf Cleric and Human Monk were down, leaving a Half-Elf Ranger, Human Wizard, and Halfling Rogue/Wizard (me). We had scattered the opposition (goblins) but they were going to be back soon and we were all low on HP and spells. We had to ditch half of OUR gear, and ALL of the dwarf's gear just to get them to a safe place. The fact that it was all the cleric's fault didn't help (don't spend 4 rounds buffing yourself when the fight's already started...). Dwarfs are heavy :-(
Oh, and carrying loot is everybody's job, and even bags of holding aren't weightless, and have their own problems (piercing attacks). I know most GM's won't exploit it, but it's a 2x4' sack. It's freaking huge - like 2 pillowcases large. It almost begs to be hit by arrows. ^_^
However all the other 1st level powers represent actions that sorcerors already do. Ranged touch and touch attacks mostly. They are already part of deal. That makes them more valuable compared to claws.
I disagree with the logic. Adding additional (weaker than actual spell) powers are not more valuable, they are less so. Add another ranged power to a ranged character DOES leverage his assets, yes, but it leaves him a one trick pony (and all that leveraging makes you better with ranged attacks in general - again, get a crossbow). Claws give options that the other powers don't. Claws don't require Concentration checks and don't provoke Attack of Opportunity, for one. So if/when you take damage, you can use them unhindered - unlike those Spell-like Abilities.
Sure sorcerers should avoid melee like the plague. They don't always get the choice. "Kill the squishy first" is practically a battle hymn, and 5ft steps and defensive casting (Concentration checks in general) have gotten worse in Pathfinder. Claws are a combat option far better than 'stab with dagger' (which you might have to pull out to begin with) if you are forced into melee range. You can probably use them while grappled, too, now that I think of it. Lots of things grapple.
Let me re-iterate, however; I consider ALL 1st level sorcerer powers to be 'weak', especially in the long run. I have no problem with any of them being unlimited use because of this. I simply consider claws to be better than 'zap' because it gives the sorcerer more options, rather than more-of-the-same.
Let me re-iterate, however; I consider ALL 1st level sorcerer powers to be 'weak', especially in the long run. I have no problem with any of them being unlimited use because of this.
I find it interesting that the greatest opposition in this thread to "unlimited claws" actually supports it. You just don't see a reason to single them out for special treatment.
Oh, and carrying loot is everybody's job
It stretches credibility in my mind to assume that every character should have a high strength. It's not necessarily good for "role players" (since it's reeks of metagaming) nor is it good for "optimizers". (I'm not saying you can't be both). Really, giving a sorcerer a high strength is a very personal decision that's not very well supported by the function of the class itself.
Adding additional (weaker than actual spell) powers are not more valuable, they are less so.
I definitely see your logic, and I want to agree with it. However, an option that's not usable is not an option at all. Okay, so you can make a claw attack in a grapple. Can you hit with it? At low levels, maybe. Even then, unless you're dedicated to using them, you don't want to have to use them. They're "emergency only". The rays are something you can rely on when you run out of normal spells (and even then you can't rely on them for very long).
So yeah, I guess it IS kind of pointless to single out the claws. ALL of the abilities are "emergency backups". And, as you keep pointing out, you're better off with a crossbow than trying to rely on something with so few shots.
I hereby expand my original question to ask ... Why are ANY of these abilities limited to times per day!? None of them are exactly game breakingly powerful.
Of course all sorcerers will want CHA/DEX/CON, but the diminishing returns rule of point buy (attribute costs spike above 13) makes spreading points around more attractive. Maybe not the 'most optimal for a zapper', but probably 'more heroic' and definitely 'more versatile'.
I think you and I have different views on 'versatile' and 'heroic' here. To me the diminishing returns is far more singificant if I am putting points into something that doesnt help me most of the time, then putting more points into something that does help me most of the time.
In a 5 man group, the Dwarf Cleric and Human Monk were down, leaving a Half-Elf Ranger, Human Wizard, and Halfling Rogue/Wizard (me). We had scattered the opposition (goblins) but they were going to be back soon and we were all low on HP and spells. We had to ditch half of OUR gear, and ALL of the dwarf's gear just to get them to a safe place. The fact that it was all the cleric's fault didn't help (don't spend 4 rounds buffing yourself when the fight's already started...). Dwarfs are heavy :-(
And how many times has this happened? It seems your party was in trouble from the beggining because it lacks a front liner. That is where your downfall was, not the fact that the sorceror couldn't carry the dwarf. And that said, I think it is 100 times an better idea to have a scroll or two of floating disk around instead.
Oh, and carrying loot is everybody's job, and even bags of holding aren't weightless, and have their own problems (piercing attacks). I know most GM's won't exploit it, but it's a 2x4' sack. It's freaking huge - like 2 pillowcases large. It almost begs to be hit by arrows. ^_^
If a gm sundered my bag of holding just because he wanted me to not be able to carry my gear I would probably get up from the table and go home. And I know they are not weightless. However given the very limited amount of stuff a sorceror actually needs to carry, the bag of holding fits nicely under light load. And as for it being everyones job to carry loot, um why exactly? Is it also everyones responsibility to cast spells? To heal? To absorbe hits and hit things back? Roles are split up for a reason, it is the strong guys responsibility to be strong and carry things.
I disagree with the logic. Adding additional (weaker than actual spell) powers are not more valuable, they are less so. Add another ranged power to a ranged character DOES leverage his assets, yes, but it leaves him a one trick pony (and all that leveraging makes you better with ranged attacks in general - again, get a crossbow). Claws give options that the other powers don't. Claws don't require Concentration checks and don't provoke Attack of Opportunity, for one. So if/when you take damage, you can use them unhindered - unlike those Spell-like Abilities.
You are ingoring the purpose of these abilities as stated by the creators. The whole point was to extend the life of casters, so they DIDNT HAVE TO BRING OUT THE CROSSBOW. The thing you keep mentioning is specifically what game designers said these 1st level abilities were meant to avoid. They are supposed to be weaker then spells, and add longevity to a character instead. Took out the big bad and just need to eliminate a few minions. No need to use color spray, just send an acidic ray at one of them.
And seriously how many times are your casters cornered without the ability to 5' step away? If thats the case chances are they are way better off using a withdraw action or 2 move actions then they are attacking with their claws. Squishy casters run when they cant slink away, they dont stand and fight hand to hand. In addition if you are completely cornered, you should cast your best spell. You are in serious trouble, and so long as you cast defensively there is no chance of an attack of opportunity, just an additional chance of failure of the spell (fail the concentration check). That is still going to be wildly more effective then breaking out the claws.
Sure sorcerers should avoid melee like the plague. They don't always get the choice. "Kill the squishy first" is practically a battle hymn, and 5ft steps and defensive casting (Concentration checks in general) have gotten worse in Pathfinder. Claws are a combat option far better than 'stab with dagger' (which you might have to pull out to begin with) if you are forced into melee range. You can probably use them while grappled, too, now that I think of it. Lots of things grapple.
I dont see how 5ft steps have gotten worse, the step up ability is not unique to pathfinder, and concentration checks still get pretty easy if you have combat casting (particularly if you knowingly cast a lower level spell in that situation). And while claws are better then stab with dagger, you probably should not be doing either. You can use them while grappled, but you can also cast a spell (with a concentration check that should be augmented by combat casting) which is 100 times a better option then attacking with a claw. So again, no claws are not some superior option.
Let me re-iterate, however; I consider ALL 1st level sorcerer powers to be 'weak', especially in the long run. I have no problem with any of them being unlimited use because of this. I simply consider claws to be better than 'zap' because it gives the sorcerer more options, rather than more-of-the-same.
Not when you consider thier actual design intent of extending the caster's combat day. They are meant to fill in between spells, not replace them, in which csae the 'zap' powers do a MUCH, MUCH better job. And like i have pointed out, the claws themselves dont give sorcerors more options, they give them no option, they are completely pointless without a few feats and a much higher strength.
I too find it interesting that we are on the same side of the argument just a different section in the stands. As wouldnt mind all of the 1st level powers being unlimited either, I just find the claws to be completely pointless without being unlimited. Where as I think the other powers fill their basic intended roll as they were written.
And how many times has this happened?
Once too often ^_^. Never when I was playing the cleric, which is usually. For some reason nobody else in our group likes them, despite the fact that they are made of sheer awesome.
If a gm sundered my bag of holding just because he wanted me to not be able to carry my gear I would probably get up from the table and go home.
Agreed, but Bags of Holding do have a HUGE weakness - big enough that I'd NEVER put anything in the bag that I couldn't afford to lose. Or anything I don't want to lose, like bags of gold, or gems, or magic items...I guess it depends on how the sack actually operates. Is it bulgy/bulky like a sack of grain? Or does it always operate like a heavy, empty sack? Can I stuff it inside a protective box?
But if you were carrying it and you fell into a spiked pit trap, could you honestly blame the GM for assigning a chance of the bag getting pierced? Like the default mass, the puncture flaw is a legitimate drawback of the device. Not something to hammer the heads of the players with, but a drawback they should take into account.
I'd put stuff like tents, oats for the horses, firewood and heavy iron camping gear in there...Handy Haversack is way better for most adventurers anyways.
And as for it being everyones job to carry loot, um why exactly? Is it also everyones responsibility to cast spells? To heal? To absorbe hits and hit things back? Roles are split up for a reason, it is the strong guys responsibility to be strong and carry things.
Medium load penalties are VERY bad for many characters (anyone who relies on DEX for AC - that includes sorcerers and wizards, btw, or anyone skill based), and even the 'tanks' of a group probably want more than +1 DEX bonus (heavy load) if they're carrying all the 'swag'. All the roles you mention are combat roles. What about standing watch? Keeping an eye out? Some things are shared responsibilities - carrying a fair share of the loot is one of them. Look, I'm not talking 14+ STR here, more like 10-12.
You are ingoring the purpose of these abilities as stated by the creators. The whole point was to extend the life of casters, so they DIDNT HAVE TO BRING OUT THE CROSSBOW.
Fair enough, though I didn't explicitly know this. Even then, only 3/10 sorcerer bloodlines get zaps - it's crossbow, melee, or melee touch for the for the rest. If they ALL had free extra zaps it'd be a better argument.
I dont see how 5ft steps have gotten worse, the step up ability is not unique to pathfinder, and concentration checks still get pretty easy if you have combat casting (particularly if you knowingly cast a lower level spell in that situation).
5ft steps ARE more easily countered. Step Up is now a core feat (i.e. non-optional splatbook feat) and Lunge is also there. Anything with reach generally makes a mockery of the 5ft step.
As for Concentration checks, defensive casting is 6 points harder (15+2 per level vs 10+1 per level) harder than in 3.5, and ALL checks are another 3 points harder (because you lost 3 ranks of skill from 3.5). So defensive casting is 9+CON bonus worse than the previous edition. THAT'S WORSE. Probably fair(er) than before, but now most any caster* has to roll a 16 to cast his best spell defensively, or 12 if he has Combat Casting. That's a 60% failure rate. Sure, if you're high level you cast lower end spells. Not much consolation to low level spellcasters though. Which makes claws more attractive IMO. At low levels, you don't have lots of feats to throw at anything, Combat Casting included. Taking Improved Initiative/Combat Casting at 1st level (human) may be the most optimal path, but...well, the whole thread is about an admittedly non-optimal build.
If I have to roll a 16 to cast my 1st level spell (or use my zap, which still has to make an easier to hit roll), do I have to roll a 16 to claw attack somebody? At low levels, probably not - and I get to claw him twice.
It's no surprise that people consider Combat Casting to be a 'must have', though. :-/
*sorcerers get a 1 point bonus thanks to slower progression. Top end casters get a bonus above and beyond once they can manage 9th level spells.
I find it interesting that the greatest opposition in this thread to "unlimited claws" actually supports it. You just don't see a reason to single them out for special treatment.
Pretty much. My opinion that claws are actually one of the better 1st level powers notwithstanding, none of those powers are great, and none of them are even good beyond, say, 6th level.
It stretches credibility in my mind to assume that every character should have a high strength.
Well, I don't consider 10-12 STR high. I don't consider STR to be a dump stat for anyone. I could accept a good character concept reason for low STR, I guess, but I like to think of adventurers as reasonably capable sorts, all in all.
I definitely see your logic, and I want to agree with it. However, an option that's not usable is not an option at all. Okay, so you can make a claw attack in a grapple. Can you hit with it?
See other post about concentration nerfing in pathfinder. Or concentration 'balancing', I should say, b/c I don't consider it unfair.
I hereby expand my original question to ask ... Why are ANY of these abilities limited to times per day!? None of them are exactly game breakingly powerful.
Agreed. If fighters et. al. always have a melee option available (which they mostly do, barring strangeness), letting casters always have a weak casting option is fine. I suppose cantrips fill this void, but 1d3 Acid Splash or Ray of Frost is a bit too weaksauce. Though an Evocation Wizard actually gets unlimited non-crap zapping (Ray of Frost at 1d3+1/2 level).
Side note: Draconic bloodline is still way cool no matter how you view the Claws ability, and THANK GOODNESS they made Dragon Disciple into something halfway decent. Thank you Paizo! ^_^
Side note: Draconic bloodline is still way cool no matter how you view the Claws ability, and THANK GOODNESS they made Dragon Disciple into something halfway decent. Thank you Paizo! ^_^
Very much agreed. The magical advancement system that 3.5 had was not only useless, but it was just plain stupid. Now we have the standardized "+1 spell level" that I can actually DO something with! Of course, they way they laid it out makes level 8 almost worthless. Oh, well.
Anyway, I agree that a "normal" adventure probably "should" have a 10-12 strength. However, in the context of this thread, I don't think that's enough to benefit the claws. Not only do you have low BAB, but you're getting +1 at most from strength, unless you REALLY specialize (like I did). Now I get +3 from strength, +1 from feat and my casting has become NOT good. All for ... 5 rounds of so-so melee. WHOO! I tried my best to optimize for claw use (barring a few rp considerations) and all I managed to do was to make them barely usable ... 5 times a day.
Anyway, I'm pretty sure that I understand all of the arguments that are relevant here. Continue debating this if you want, but I don't think there are many more points to make. Especially since everybody seems to be in agreement anyway. Thanks again to everybody who helped out, especially Kolokotroni and Helic! Your flurry of insights was exactly was I was hoping to get from this!
The Dragon Discipile is NOT and never has been billed as a "melee" class. Although once you get up there, who's going to care about some measly claws when you can pop out FORM OF THE DRAGON.
Remember, Form of the Dragon isn't something you can rely on in EVERY battle. You get it at level 12 (earliest) and only once per day. The claws are available from level 1. For a sorcerer, they're there for when you run out of spells. For a Disciple, they're for when you don't have any Forms left, or the fight is too small to waste using one. Of course, if using the claws wastes resources as well, than that defeats even that use for them.
Then there's the part about DD NOT being a melee class. Okay, it's not pure melee, but seriously. Medium BAB, d12 hit die, +4 strength, +2 con and +3 nat armor. You can also choose feats like Blindfighting, Power Attack and Toughness. Plus it gives you claw and bite attacks! What would you use all of that for? Shooting a crossbow? Making magic items? Throwing daggers? Pure casting? ... NO! The only thing a Dragon Disciple gives out that's not usable in melee is the +2 Int! Almost everything else isn't just melee, but Main Tank melee.
I don't care what you think it's been "billed" as ... it's stats are heavily geared for melee. Too bad you have to carry around a sword just to make use of any of that. It sure would be nice if it came with it's own, built-in, dragon themed weapon .....
I think the sorcerer claws (and the Draconic Disciple by extension) could make a decent melee build, IF the claws were unlimited, without a high STR. I'm thinking along the lines of Weapon Finesse, since you're likely to have a decent Dex a Sorcerer if only for the AC. Combine that with Greater Magic Fang for a bump in damage (you'll need UMD or a friendly Druid/Ranger). When the DD's STR bonuses kick in, it'll just be gravy.
Of course, this is just off the top of my head. I've no idea if the math for this makes it viable, but it seems like a fun idea. If only the claws were unlimited. *sigh*
The Dragon Discipile is NOT and never has been billed as a "melee" class. Although once you get up there, who's going to care about some measly claws when you can pop out FORM OF THE DRAGON.
Um....errrrwhhaaaaa?
Lets look at the class abilities shall we?
Things Not for melee
Breath weapon
+2 int
Blind sense (though this is neutral as its obviously useful to everyone)
7 caster levles over 10 levels.
Melee abilities
A total of +6 to your natural armor (remember it's increasing the Nat Armor granted by the sorceror bloodline too which is +1 at level 3, and +4 at level 15 so over the 10 levels of dragon disciple (assuming you entered it with 5 levels of sorceror) you get +3 from that in nat armor)
+2 strength twice
+2 con
A bite attack
3 feats to choose from a list that include toughness, power attack, and blind fight
The ability to turn into a badass melee dragon
Wings (which are something all melee classes truly enjoy, ask any meleer how much he'd like to have wings.)
D12 Hit die
3/4 BaB
I mean just the strength increase, form of the dragon and the d12 hit die say "USE THIS TO MAKE A FIGHTER/MAGE" in capital letters no less.
I am currently playing a sorc 5 dd 5 meleer and he is quite good at it, that is after all what the class is made for. And Since you dont get form of the dragon untill very deep in the class, the answer to who cares about claws? Every Dragon Disciple. It is his principle weapon. Without it he is just a lower level caster. Or someone swinging a stick around (you know, sorc weapon profficiencies and all).
Every Dragon Disciple. It is his principle weapon. Without it he is just a lower level caster. Or someone swinging a stick around (you know, sorc weapon profficiencies and all).
One thing people miss about the DD is you need ONE level of sorcerer, and 5 levels total of anything to qualify.
Fighter4/Sorcerer1/DD Anyone? That's a melee build for sure. Trade off some bonus feats and BaB for spells, dragon abilities and lots more (non magical) stats. And you wouldn't even need the claws - you're probably Weapon Specialized.
I havent read all through the thread now, only a bit more than half of the first page.
My question to the OP is: What keeps you from simply keeping your claws out all day? I cannot see any limitations to having your claws readily grown. Neither a limited time until they retract by themselves nor any penalties you get from having them out.
Checked it again, and I really can't find any reason why it should not be possible to keep out the claws all day. At first i was concerned that it affected somatic spellcasting components, but I didnt find anything that would hamper that either (your hands are still free). The only situation I can think of that would require you to retract the claws are social situations in which they would be invoking distrust, because they either reveal your sorcerous heritage to someone who'd better not know or are just plain intimidating. But you shouldnt stumble into situations like those more than maybe 2 times a day with fights in between.
The rule is not the number of times you can open your claws but how many rounds use you can get per day. So it's not simply a matter of going through the whole day in "Wovlerine mode" or "Dracoine" if you prefer :)I havent read all through the thread now, only a bit more than half of the first page.
My question to the OP is: What keeps you from simply keeping your claws out all day?
Huh, you're right. I should have looked at the english book, the german translation falsely states it as times per day, not rounds per day.
LazerX, I wasn't trying to say that a pure Sorc/Disciple should be a main tank. I was saying that everything that the Disciple gets lends itself VERY well to front line use. I was refuting your claim that DD is NOT a melee class. I loved how you said that it "never has been" a melee class. Did you even see the 3.5 version?! It sure as heck wasn't a casting class, I'll tell you that! Dragon Disciple has always been a good for melee. Pathfinder just made it good at casting as well.
And what part of +7 natural armor is NOT good AC progression for a warrior or anybody else? Heck, if you go pure sorcerer/DD, you can get that up to +9! That's either 2 or 4 points HIGHER than you can get with magic items and it stacks with other defenses that a "warrior" would normally have. "Not that impressive AC"?! Really?! Is it because a Dragon Disciple probably won't be wearing very heavy armor? Mage Armor + a decent dex is usually how casters handle that situation. And hey, if you're really worried about AC, get yourself an enhanced mithril buckler. It doesn't interfere with spellcasting, and you only lose the AC when you're attacking with both hands.
Because after awhile even with the buff they get later on, claws are going to be second rate to a decent weapon.
If they're an inferior option to a sword, then why limit them? Why even have them at all? If you're going to be using a giant sword, then you probably don't care about the fact that you can grow claws. If you're NOT using a giant sword, then you're going to need them to be more reliable than "a few rounds a day". Are you seeing the logic, here or do I need to wait until Kolokotroni shows up again to say things better than I can?
The Japanese translation must be especially entertaining.Huh, you're right. I should have looked at the english book, the german translation falsely states it as times per day, not rounds per day.The rule is not the number of times you can open your claws but how many rounds use you can get per day. So it's not simply a matter of going through the whole day in "Wovlerine mode" or "Dracoine" if you prefer :)I havent read all through the thread now, only a bit more than half of the first page.
My question to the OP is: What keeps you from simply keeping your claws out all day?
I think I'll use the german mistranslation as a houserule. Our sorcerer might be very disappointed if he had to find out, his claws are limited to 6 or 7 rounds a day (I'm not sure right now what his CHA score is)
Hey, in 3.5... you had to cast spells to gain claw attacks. Draconic claws are fine for the sorcerer bloodline. Dragon Disciples start off with claws but end up with turning into a dragon.
If you really want to use claws all the time, perhaps the answer is a spell that grants the claws?
If you really want to use claws all the time, perhaps the answer is a spell that grants the claws?
At which point I again ask, "Then why bother giving them as a class feature." *shakes head* Unless somebody from Paizo chimes in with some behind the scenes rationale, I'm going to have to agree with pretty much everybody else who says that the daily limits on sorcerer 1st level abilities is ridiculous and counterproductive to what we assume to be the initial design intent!
Now, as much as I love discussing this topic, unless somebody shows up with some brilliant new insights, perhaps this threat is better off left unbumped, yes?
Well, it isn't paticularly briliant, but what about allowing additional daily allotment of uses fo burning a spell level or two? (sacrifice lvl 3 spell to get additional 9 + 3 x cha modifier rounds of claws)?
Well, it isn't paticularly briliant, but what about allowing additional daily allotment of uses fo burning a spell level or two? (sacrifice lvl 3 spell to get additional 9 + 3 x cha modifier rounds of claws)?
As far as houserules go, everybody seems to be fairly cool with "unlimited", so I don't see any particular reason to complicate it any more. Your suggestion DOES seem to be fairly standard mentality for a feat, though. But seriously? If I'm going to spend another feat on those claws, I don't want to also have to spend spell slots.