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I'm a little confused with regards to magic item creation. The general rule on p. 548 it says...
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spelltrigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
The first part of the passage suggests that access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed, but the last sentence suggests it isn't for "spelltrigger and spell-completion magic items". Aren't a large proportion of magic items "spelltrigger and spell-completion magic items"? This would most certainly include potions, wands, and scrolls, but what about rods (metamagic) and staves (that cast many spells)? What about rings which duplicate spell effects (e.g. invisibility)?
I find this to be very confusing language. Can anyone please clarify for me? Thanks.
Keith
I'm a little confused with regards to magic item creation. The general rule on p. 548 it says...
"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spelltrigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."
The first part of the passage suggests that access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed, but the last sentence suggests it isn't for "spelltrigger and spell-completion magic items". Aren't a large proportion of magic items "spelltrigger and spell-completion magic items"? This would most certainly include potions, wands, and scrolls, but what about rods (metamagic) and staves (that cast many spells)? What about rings which duplicate spell effects (e.g. invisibility)?
I find this to be very confusing language. Can anyone please clarify for me? Thanks.
Keith
Keith,
If I understand the rules correctly, having access to a spell includes any items you have in your possession. For example, say you want to create a Wand of Fireball. Per the rules you must have access to the Fireball spell. Now this access can be direct (through your own spellcasting ability) or indirect (say from a spell scroll of Fireball).
If you stop and think, this makes sense. How can you create a Ring of Invisibility, or a Potion of Invisibility, or any magic item that has an invisibility effect is you don't have some sort of access to the Invisibility spell?
To me, the last sentence doesn't mean you can't use other sources for a spell, merely that there are some items, such as a luckstone or sovereign glue, that don't directly duplicate the effects of a particular spell. Spell trigger and spell completion items do, and thus you need the spell in question to create the item. It is still OK to use an external source for the "spell prerequisite".
I hope this helps.
DogBone
Yes, but I'm thinking specifically about having multiple casters assist in the creation of an item. The rules under Wand creation say, "the creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires". However, general item creation description says other spellcasters are allowed. So, if the mage crafting the wand doesn't have the desired spell, can he have another caster cast the spell for wand creation? The wand rules suggest not, but the generic item creation rules suggest so, except in the case of "spelltrigger and spell-completion magic items"... whatever that means. The rod rules are not as explicit as the wand rules and are subject to further interpretation.
My specific question is this. Can my mage with the craft rod feat make a metamagic rod of quicken spell even though he doesn't have the quicken spell feat, but has access to an follower that does have the feat (i.e. can the two wizards collaborate on the creation of the item)?
Thanks for your input.
It has always been my understanding that "having access" to a spell meant by any means possible. Whether that was by spellcasting, spell scroll, wand, rod, ring, etc... If you could use the spell "somehow", then it counts. That is what I believe, and until Erik Mona, James Jacobs, Jason Bulmahn, or one of the other gurus at Paizo say otherwise, that's what I'll go by. <Maybe they could clarify...are you listening...Happy New Year!!!>
Now, that being said...
My specific question is this. Can my mage with the craft rod feat make a metamagic rod of quicken spell even though he doesn't have the quicken spell feat, but has access to an follower that does have the feat (i.e. can the two wizards collaborate on the creation of the item)?
This is trickier. You are not asking about a follower providing a spell, but the item creation feat itself, which, according to the rules, is the one prerequisite that is an absolute must. In this example, it would be the follower, not your character, who is actually creating the item in question. Otherwise, any mage could create any item without needing the requisite feats; just find someone else who does. That makes thing too easy.
DogBone
Uhm,
Ok. If I understand correctly, here are some scenarios:
For all scenarios, we have a 15th level Human Sorcerer. Feats : Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Rod, Craft Magical Arms and Armor
First Scenario : Craft Belt of Dwarvenkind
Our Human Sorcerer meets the Caster Level (12th). DC to make is by default, 17 (5 + 12). However, our sorcerer is not a dwarf. That is a prerequisite he can never meet. So, the DC is instead 22 (17+5). Now, he doesn't have tongues as a spell, but he can get access to it via scrolls. If he gets a scroll every day and casts it from the scroll, then he's fine with that, and keeps his DC at 22. If he can't afford to do that, he can instead increase the DC to 27. At 15th level, he could have a spellcraft of (15 ranks + 4 INT + 3 Trained + 6 Skill Focus) 28. So it's better for him to just not even bother with the spell. If he had a cohort who had tongues, he could have his cohort prepare the spell each day and help instead. That would decrease his DC and cost no gold. Either way, he has the DC beat just with his skill. Taking 10 he can set his DC to 35 to craft faster and still do it easily.
Second Scenario : Craft Rod of Quicken Spell
Our Human Sorcerer doesn't meet the Caster Level. Now, nothing in the rules say you can't create the item if you don't meet the caster level, but they don't say you can either, that I've found. Let's assume the Caster Level is a prerequisite then. Since he doesn't meet it, his DC starts off at (17 + 5) 22. Now, he doesn't have the Quicken Spell feat either, which is another prerequisite. So that means his target number jumps up to 27. Some GM's I've heard of consider every level you miss your CL by to be a +5, which would increase our Sorcerers DC to 32.
Personally, in my games, if you can't hit the caster level, I don't allow you to make the item at all. Mainly because as we can see, our level 15 sorcerer could still make the rod without being 17th level taking 10 on all his rolls, even with the +5 per CL missed.
Either way, the point is that our sorcerer has the item creation feat, which is required and can't be dispensed with. Any other prerequisite, be it race, spell, or non item-creation feat, can be dispensed with by increasing the DC by +5. So, to answer the OP's original question, he can make the metamagic rod, if he's level 17, without having the metamagic feat. His cohort can't provide the metamagic ability because he can't have access to someone elses feat. He can get access to the spell (since the cohort could cast a spell for him into the item), but he couldn't give the crafter his metamagic feat.
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I allow crafting items without the requisite caster level unless the item makes a special mention of the requirement (such as bracers of armor, amulets of mighty fists and weapons and armor crafting). The reason for this is otherwise the wizard with craft wondrous can't craft a bag of holding I until level 9, even though it's rather cheap (affordable even at level 3, if you craft it). If I didn't allow such "over CL" crafting then the character just wouldn't bother with bags of holding lower than IV. The handy haversack also has a CL 9th requirement.
For many wondrous items the CL requirement is just the minimum CL to be able to cast the spell that is their prerequisite.
I also treat it as a flat +5 to the DC when not at the right caster level because the caster level is itself already calculated into the DC and adding a +5 per CL missing is pretty brutal.
Of course, this is just my interpretation.
Kenku Bard, the line that's confusing you is there to close a rules loophole which was introduced with the revised Spellcraft-based crafting method in PFRPG. Normally, if you don't meet a prerequisite for an item (such as access to the spell), you can take a +5 to the crafting DC and try anyway. In the specific case of spell trigger and spell completion items, this isn't a prerequisite (rules definition), but an absolute requirement (English definition). You can't make a wand of fireball without direct access (through your own spells, a friend's, or other items) to the fireball spell. Perhaps more importantly, you can't create a scroll of fireball from which you could then learn the spell!
Caster level is not a prerequisite, nor is it intended to be a requirement of any sort, and the text earlier in the chapter which says that you must have the appropriate caster level to create an item will be removed in future errata. (That's official, sorry I don't have a reference link handy.) So far as crafting is concerned, caster level only sets the DC of the Spellcraft check.