To America's credit, they did get what is today part of Ohio during subsequent peace talks.
yay. booyah.
Want it back?
No. Ohio is mine. Do you hear me? MINE! <shakes fist>
To America's credit, they did get what is today part of Ohio during subsequent peace talks.
yay. booyah.
Want it back?
No, but the Mexicans do want Texas. And the Hawaiians want their volcanoes back.
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We had a new company that opened up here for a time. It was a canadian company that while it was doing quite well in canada did not do so hot when actually based in america, even though they did all of thier other business here. Anyway I heard several very egotistical mentions about the war of 1812, of which I knew very little of at the time, saying that we had lost that battle to them. So maybe just a few do. Oh and I liked almost everyone I met. One of whom stayed because, well it is just so much cheaper to live here then where she was from. I can't remember the name of the city but it was up near Niagra falls.
No, but the Mexicans do want Texas. And the Hawaiians want their volcanoes back.To America's credit, they did get what is today part of Ohio during subsequent peace talks.
yay. booyah.
Want it back?
I do know some native Americans who'd like it back, though.
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I know the owner of the company that makes Shatner's hair piece. I feel so complete.Captain Kirk,....what is this earth thing called a......poutine?
"Whyit's.....oneofthe reasons.....I wearthis.....mangirdle. ThatI wear."
that's you in the pink metallic mesh jacket tending bar next to him?
that's you in the pink metallic mesh jacket tending bar next to him?
Pretty hot, aren't I?
Here that? Them canucks is taunting us about burning our capital down. They're sitting back, with their mooseheads, snuggling with their wives and laughing at us.
We gotta make this right.
We gotta BURN THEIR DANG CANUCK CAPITOL.Now which of them cities is it? I forget.
Ummm. Halifax?
Ironically the British troops didn't enter the city till an envoy ridding under a white flag was fired upon. Which was also strictly against the rules of war. As I understand it the British were on their way to discuss terms of surrender. Things went down hill from there :D
We do like to say that British (with some local British-Canadians) troops occupied Washington and burned down a good part of Washington DC. American textbooks that I've read refer to these troops as "hooligans". Truth told the attack on Washington was a response to the looting of York (omitted from the high school history texts I saw), where Americans pillaged a Canadian city. Up until York, such actions were not considered fair warfare... but hey, America tossed out the rules.
Something like that :P
On the upside, we ended up with a much spiffier, less leaky building for the Big Kahuna to live in.
Then again, since this was, what, 30 years after the Revolutionary War ended, hooliganism and American military tactics/strategy were pretty much identical. Go to so-and-so place ... and mug them. Or get shot trying, either way. ^_^
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Pretty hot, aren't I?
that's you in the pink metallic mesh jacket tending bar next to him?
Sorry; I can't tell. Not with Uhura in the room.
Vancouver? Sasquatchekhan? Outer Mooseburgia? Ottawa? Something like that. Or is it Molson?
Yah sure.
Brandon, Brandon ummm Ontario. That's the Capital.
(nothing nice there anyway, right?)
...Ironically the British troops didn't enter the city till an envoy ridding under a white flag was fired upon.... Things went down hill from there :DSomething like that :P
On the upside, we ended up with a much spiffier, less leaky building for the Big Kahuna to live in.
Then again, since this was, what, 30 years after the Revolutionary War ended, hooliganism and American military tactics/strategy were pretty much identical. Go to so-and-so place ... and mug them. Or get shot trying, either way. ^_^
Hehe. Other than a few of their political leaders, I doubt very many Americans were aware of any rules to "civilized" warfare.
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Captain Kirk,....what is this earth thing called a......poutine?
"Whyit's.....oneofthe reasons.....I wearthis.....mangirdle. ThatI wear."
There shall be no mocking of the greatness that is Captain James T Kirk
Or his looting of Canada during the War of 1812
Don't laugh. I was part of a strike force sent in to pierce the heart of Manitoba. A town called Bloodvein. Gargoyles perched atop liquor store roofs disgorged hot maple syrup down onto our hapless recon team. They died in sweet skin-bubbling agony. The rest of use were snuck up on by highly trained deathmoose, tied up and then whipped about the face with beaver tails (the bakery treat... not actual beaver tails cuz that would be ridiculous). They then untied us and sent us skateless out onto a frozen lake and lit us up with slap shot hockey pucks. Ferguson went down first, crushed temple. Melendez caught one in the throat and died of internal bleeding. I consider myself lucky for making it out of there with eighty six fractures and a bruised spleen.
How precise was their attack? The bruise on said spleen was shaped like a maple leaf. Don't mess with those guys. They mess back hard and weird.
Boiled man in syrup tastes awesome. You should have stolen a lick before they caught you. I mean they're Canadians. They wouldn't begrudge you that.
...or so I'm told.
After all the carnage I saw and smelled during our failed mission, even the sight of a pancake house causes me to enter a state of nauseous shock. PTSD at the IHOP.
Re: the looting of York
There's well-documented cases of British looting during the Revolutionary War, so really, claiming the British didn't loot a generation later is b%@#&~%s.
The war of 1812 was indeed some prime-grade foolishness, though.
That's a fact.
Except that I didn't make a b$!@!~!+ claim that the British didn't "loot a generation later". In fact they didn't just loot, they burned down buildings (Library of Congress, really... how tacky). They committed atrocities (Hessians, in particular had a reputation for doing so).
I figure that pretty well anywhere an army hunkers down they take what they can eat and carry. Women tend to get raped. Livestock gets eaten... and sometimes raped. Kegs get quaffed. Cash gets nicked. The Jade gets into drag and does a dance. Sometimes it even happens in friendly territory.
What happened in York, quite specifically, was that a governor's mansion was looted and the seat of government was burned down--and I think this was generally considered a faux pas as far as continental warfare was concerned because it involved the upper class and public structures--it certainly fueled the call to raid Washington as history tells it.
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What the USA fails to realize is that we have them trapped in a pocket reality thanks to their use of black hole weapons and their only option is to suck it up and surrender to Canada...Haddnt you noticed the European circle of stars on that early American flag? Possibility Manipulation has you by the testilces. :P
And may I add that those are yellowdingo's hands on your testes.
And may I add that those are yellowdingo's hands on your testes.I have no problem grabbin a man by the testes...9/10 times he drops the football and squeals like a gurll. just enough for a Goal.
Yah. I guess I forgot you were an Aussie.
To America's credit, they did get what is today part of Ohio during subsequent peace talks.
What part? I'm usually pretty up on American territorial changes but if some section of Ohio was ceded at the end of the War of 1812, I haven't heard of it.
To my knowledge, all British territory south of the Great Lakes and east of the Mississippi, save Florida, was ceded in 1783. (Spain got Florida back, then we stole it from them later.) That would include all of present-day Ohio.
Granted the British didn't really plan to hold to the treaty and kept forts in the land they'd given up in the Northwest Territory (present Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan, and a hunk of Minnesota, originally "Territory Northwest of the River Ohio", as it says on the tin) and border was defined ambiguously. These issues were mostly resolved in the Jay Treaty, which was fairly humiliating to the US since several of the main gains in it were things promised at the conclusion of our insurrection.
There were boundary issues adjudicated by arbitration, and some of those remained outstanding (and gained new company in the successive decades) but the main one that was resolved was over part of the border between Maine and New Brunswick.
To America's credit, they did get what is today part of Ohio during subsequent peace talks.What part? I'm usually pretty up on American territorial changes but if some section of Ohio was ceded at the end of the War of 1812, I haven't heard of it.
...
There were boundary issues adjudicated by arbitration, and some of those remained outstanding (and gained new company in the successive decades) but the main one that was resolved was over part of the border between Maine and New Brunswick.
I guess if you actually read my whole post (or even the rest of the paragraph you cited from) you'd know what I was talking about (bold added):
...We do enjoy referring to the bungled invasion attempt by America, however. The invasion was soundly repelled not just by red-coats, but also troops contributed by other European countries (Hessian mercenaries among them)... The way I hear it George Washington wanted all of Quebec. Some General named Thompson f&!@ed it up by leading the Americans right into a newly reinforced British entrenchment. To America's credit, they did get what is today part of Ohio during subsequent peace talks.
Failed again.
My bad. Remind me not to ask you an honest question again. Clearly a terrible mistake.
Canadian Cavalry.
They traded up from the moose?? <gasps>
Well, we in Ohio are thinking twice about Toledo, though.
Canadian Cavalry.They traded up from the moose?? <gasps>
Everyone likes to make fun of moose (including us Canadians) but they are fearsome when you see them up close and personal. So much mass and some times so much anger (especially in rutting season).
Ironically the British troops didn't enter the city till an envoy ridding under a white flag was fired upon. Which was also strictly against the rules of war. As I understand it the British were on their way to discuss terms of surrender. Things went down hill from there :D
You have it backward.
On August 25, the advance guard of British troops marched to Capitol Hill; they were too few in number to occupy the city, so Ross intended to destroy as much of it as possible. He sent a party under a flag of truce to agree to terms, but they were attacked by partisans from a house at the corner of Maryland Avenue, Constitution Avenue, and 2nd Street NE. This was to be the only resistance the soldiers met. The house was burned, but the soldiers were infuriated.
Relatively few buildings were actually burned though its true that those that were burned were burned in retaliation for the burning of some government building at York (Toronto) the previous year. Damage would likely have been significantly more but the British troops involved had not been involved in the fighting in Canada and so had not become accustomed to what had turned into a very brutal business along the Canadian frontier.
Ok if we are going to war with canada. I would like to volunteer myself and some other select gentlemen for a strike force to subdue all of those handsome well muscled canadian mountie type men.
We promise no harm will come to them(much) and I think we'll get along with them well. After all any group of guys that has "we always get our man" cant be all bad.
We have things we don't want you to know. The problem is with the internet there is no chance of you not finding out. Believing it is another subject however. :) Plus what could the canucks actually do if we invaded?
Vote Democrat (Except in Alberta).
Ummm. Halifax?
No burning down Halifax. Two of my sisters live there. :(
Besides they're still half destroyed from Hurricane Juan, so it's no fun to kick a city when it's already down...
We had a new company that opened up here for a time. It was a canadian company that while it was doing quite well in canada did not do so hot when actually based in america, even though they did all of thier other business here. Anyway I heard several very egotistical mentions about the war of 1812, of which I knew very little of at the time, saying that we had lost that battle to them. So maybe just a few do. Oh and I liked almost everyone I met.
The War of 1812 serves as a unifying myth in Canada in much the same way as the American Revolution serves as a unifying myth in America.
That said the War of 1812 was probably critical in keeping Canada independent from the United States. Most 'Canadians', by 1812, were actually Americans - a demographic shift that would likely have continued had the war not intervened. Its quite possible that Canada would simply have shifted so far into the U.S. orbit at some point on or after the 1830's without the War of 1812 that Britain would have lost the colony. Think of something along the lines of what historically happened with Texas.
In any case the myth rarely stands up to real scrutiny. In particular the idea that 'Canadians' defeated the invading Americans is false. More 'Canadians' actually fought on the American side then the British side (see that demographic shift I mention above). The real key to British successes lay in the combination of British Regulars and Native Indians. This combination would serve the British admirably in many of the early battles essentially because the Americans where not comparable to the British in any open space and the much loved American tactic of scattering into the trees to snipe at Red Coats tended to result in a Tomahawk to the back of the head.
There is also, if your interested in considering what might have been type topics, some interesting speculation on what might have happened had the war continued. By 1815 the Union was in tatters. Almost none of the States were taking any direction from the central government anymore and they had stopped handing over their taxes - they were hoarding them for their own militia's. The Regular American Army had actually reached its zenith in at least a year before and was quite literally disintegrating at this point due to the fact that the government simply was not capable of providing supplies or replacements. A hero like Jackson could compel the locals in several surrounding states to meet his needs (more or less) but most American forces where not so fortunate.
Whitehall was desperate for peace - they could see absolutely no gain for continued war but the British Commanders in North America itself knew better, they knew they had the makings of a victorious campaign, and were arguing as best they could for Britain to continue the War (The fact that the British had a very expensive but large and veteran army still around from the Napoleonic Wars added to this sense of confidence). Ultimately we know that Whitehall fell over itself dropping every demand they had from the Treaty of Ghent but if that had not been the case then the history of the continent would likely have been dramatically different.
The political union between the States would likely have been nearly irrevocably shattered (meaning no American Civil War since States Rights would likely have been far to powerful in whatever Confederation was cobbled together after the war) and, while the states themselves where unconquerable some kind of British protector ship over some form of Indian Confederation that covered significant parts of the west was not out of the question (extremely stymied westward expansion - no outlet for European immigrants at least in North America).
That said the War of 1812 was probably critical in keeping Canada independent from the United States. Most 'Canadians', by 1812, were actually Americans - a demographic shift that would likely have continued had the war not intervened. Its quite possible that Canada would simply have shifted so far into the U.S. orbit at some point on or after the 1830's without the War of 1812 that Britain would have lost the colony. Think of something along the lines of what historically happened with Texas.
I think you are spot on with the unifying myth Jeremy, but you must also remember that many of the 'Americans' that were living in Canada at the time were Loyalists: Colonial Americans who wanted to remain loyal to Britian. They moved en masse to places like Nova Soctia and New Brunswick to escape the Revolution. They wanted no part of America, and hated the place (and their descendants still harbor grudges).
When I have talked to Canadians in that area (and my discovered biological family, which has a strain of Loyalist in their pedigree) that mass exodus still resonates 230+ years later. In fact, there is still quite a bit of latent hostility to Americans reaching back from this time, and of course all the perceived slights thereafter. I don't think Canada ever had any chance of becoming American without military force. If we had done that then we would have a dozen Quebec-like states (including Quebec, LOL), continually agitating for self-rule.
Texas was a different story, with Americans moving into a foreign country illegally (how ironic) and then overwhelming the resident Mexicans, who hadn't established a strong presence there.
That said the War of 1812 was probably critical in keeping Canada independent from the United States. Most 'Canadians', by 1812, were actually Americans - a demographic shift that would likely have continued had the war not intervened. Its quite possible that Canada would simply have shifted so far into the U.S. orbit at some point on or after the 1830's without the War of 1812 that Britain would have lost the colony. Think of something along the lines of what historically happened with Texas.I think you are spot on with the unifying myth Jeremy, but you must also remember that many of the 'Americans' that were living in Canada at the time were Loyalists: Colonial Americans who wanted to remain loyal to Britian. They moved en masse to places like Nova Soctia and New Brunswick to escape the Revolution. They wanted no part of America, and hated the place (and their descendants still harbor grudges).
When I have talked to Canadians in that area (and my discovered biological family, which has a strain of Loyalist in their pedigree) that mass exodus still resonates 230+ years later. In fact, there is still quite a bit of latent hostility to Americans reaching back from this time, and of course all the perceived slights thereafter. I don't think Canada ever had any chance of becoming American without military force. If we had done that then we would have a dozen Quebec-like states (including Quebec, LOL), continually agitating for self-rule.
Texas was a different story, with Americans moving into a foreign country illegally (how ironic) and then overwhelming the resident Mexicans, who hadn't established a strong presence there.
There are more recent American Immigrants then Empire Loyalists and hence more 'Canadians' join the invading Americans then serve the Crown. Thing is after 1815 every single 'Canadian' will swear on his mothers grave that he's an Empire Loyalist and they all have some story about him and seven other guys holding off an American Horde as numberless as the stars.
You see the same sort of thing in the American Civil War. In the opening days of the war they had to bring regiments down from New England to keep the rowdy Marylanders in check, hold onto Baltimore and keep the supply lines to Washington open. In 1866 however you'd have to really work at it to find a southern sympathizer in Maryland.
thoughtful reply
I conceed your point. I was basically just talking anecdotally, from things said about that period by Canadians. Revisionism is a fun sport no matter what side of History you perch upon. And you are right: I doubt there is a Canadian alive who would proudly point to their ancestor as having joined the Americans in 1812, any more than you can find an American who proudly points to his Loyalist roots (though I did meet one dude who admitted to a Hessian ancestor who snuck off from the Revolution and started a farm)
I don’t know guys, Canada’s got Bioware. I’d change sides in a heartbeat for a copy of Mass Effect 2 and a SWtOR beta key.
I don’t know guys, Canada’s got Bioware. I’d change sides in a heartbeat for a copy of Mass Effect 2 and a SWtOR beta key.
Don't forget Dragon Age. If I could get a free copy I'd switch sides AND sing the Canadian national anthem.
You lemmings!
Canada's too bloody cold.
Now, if they had those uber honeys like the Scandinavian countries do, then I suppose I could switch sides too for that kind of cold snowy weather. But alas...
:P
Even that's not enough for me. Cold is COLD.
I live in the desert for a reason.
Now, if they had those uber honeys like the Scandinavian countries do, then I suppose I could switch sides too for that kind of cold snowy weather. But alas...
:P
Hehe...
<-- proud Scandinavian here :-D
and for most it was business as usual.
Except the New Englanders, who were crippled by the shipping embargo placed by Jefferson in 1808. They were totally anti-war, and when their efforts to stop it failed, they were lambasted as traitors. In fact I found these intersting couple of quotes from pro-war papers at the time when open war was declared:
"WAR IS DECLARED, and every patriot heart must unite in its support."
"he who is not for us is against us."
Hmm, Plus ca change plus c'est le meme chose ..