I'm updating from 3.0 to Pathfinder now (yeah, pretty much stopped playing around the time 3.5 came out and am picking up RPGs again. I've already heard all the jokes I'm emerging from the stone-age. Also, get off my lawn you damn kids) and I'm thinking of allowing these to stack. I've never had a problem with this in 3.0, but looking at the critical focus line of feats, a rapier build looks like it can be quite powerful, especially with the fighter capstone. I know a lot of people house-ruled this back into 3.5, so I'm wondering if anyone's allowed this for Pathfinder and got away without any trouble.
While we're at the subject, do burst effects cap out at x4 crit damage? Now that weapons like the scythe can get to x5 crit damage with the fighter capstone, I'm wondering if it's intentional or an oversight that burst weapons will still function as though the crit multiplier was x4.
I'm updating from 3.0 to Pathfinder now (yeah, pretty much stopped playing around the time 3.5 came out and am picking up RPGs again. I've already heard all the jokes I'm emerging from the stone-age. Also, get off my lawn you damn kids) and I'm thinking of allowing these to stack. I've never had a problem with this in 3.0, but looking at the critical focus line of feats, a rapier build looks like it can be quite powerful, especially with the fighter capstone. I know a lot of people house-ruled this back into 3.5, so I'm wondering if anyone's allowed this for Pathfinder and got away without any trouble.
While we're at the subject, do burst effects cap out at x4 crit damage? Now that weapons like the scythe can get to x5 crit damage with the fighter capstone, I'm wondering if it's intentional or an oversight that burst weapons will still function as though the crit multiplier was x4.
I think I got single digit crits once using that method*. I think its better to not allow them to stack. I don't have the build anymore, but I could try to recreate it.
*The chance to do this depends heavily on what books you allow.
Don't worry about the fighter capstone; how much time do you spend at level 20?
Never gotten a campaign that high, but it's conceivable a similar ability has been printed or will be printed in some splatbook somewhere, plus I'm kind of curious about it in a more general way. And what do you mean by "wasting any crit range."
Are you okay with making Critical Focus about half-again as good as it is now?
I don't know man, you tell me whether that's a bad idea and I'll tell you whether I'm comfortable with it.
Besides I was more worried about the x effects on a critical line of feats. Stunning critical looks good with a rapier, considering you'll be critting with almost every attack that hits. Edit: Just noticed the 17 bab requirement. Guess this isn't going to be coming into play either.
Actually a lot of us house ruled that out in 3.0, so it's said.
It's already easy enough to get a very large critical range, not really any reason to make it somehow even easier.
Yeah but in 3.0, assuming the core books, it didn't need to be house-ruled out. Splatbooks did make it rather powerful, granted, but I'm probably sticking with just the core pathfinder book for now.
I think I got single digit crits once using that method*. I think its better to not allow them to stack. I don't have the build anymore, but I could try to recreate it.
*The chance to do this depends heavily on what books you allow.
It's Not That Uber. Assuming a 18-20/x2 base crit mod, each additional point of crit-chance is worth ~4.3% more damage, until you crit every time you hit and then it's worthless. For comparison, +1 to hit is an increase between ~5.3% (going from 3+ to 2+) and ~110% (going from 20+ to 19+) unless you hit on a 2+ or only hit on a 20.
It feels like a lot of damage because you're critting a lot. But if you're trading off resources that give you +hit or +damage, then you might not really be doing more damage.
I think part of the build was the Weapon Master(Oriental Adventures IIRC). It gave you a +2 on top of whatever your crit range was, and it increased the multiplier by one step also at one point.
scythe 17-20 x 5 is a 20% chance at a one shot.
Taking scimitars and falchions and allowing the imp crit-keen combo is bad enough, and adding the +2 means almost every hit is a crit.
Never gotten a campaign that high, but it's conceivable a similar ability has been printed or will be printed in some splatbook somewhere, plus I'm kind of curious about it in a more general way. And what do you mean by "wasting any crit range."If your crit range is 15-20, and you only hit on a 17+, then you waste some crit range.
I don't know man, you tell me whether that's a bad idea and I'll tell you whether I'm comfortable with it.Up to you, really. Right now, it's a feat worse than Weapon Focus pretty much all the time. If you stack Keen and IC, then it's still worse than Weapon Focus most of the time.
If you only hit on a 17 then you should not be in melee. Now if I misunderstood you as not meaning you need a 17 to hit then I am kind of lost.
I think if you crit with a scythe with a power attacking melee type at x5(crit multiplier) then something(maybe the boss) is going to die. I don't mean with a theoretical build where you get to spend 100% of your wealth exactly like you want it, but in a real game.
MiB is a pretty knowledgeable guy and he may be right, but I am worried about the amount of damage from one hit. I will throw something together to tomorrow showing average and max damage.
Here is someones house rule for it, I wouldn't necessarily use it myself, but I'm thinkinf of doing so.
Keen & Improved Critical
The Keen enhancement (and the Keen Edge spell) and Improved Critical stack. However, the threat range is doubled +1 rather than tripled, e.g. a Keen Longsword wielded by someone with Improved Critical will have a threat range of 16-20 (rather than 17-20 as it is now or 15-20 if they all stacked normally).
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Sean K. Reynolds weighed in on this very subject a while back. Here's a link to his rant.
Rant: If Keen and Improved Critical Don't Stack, The Terrorists Will Have Won
Personally, I like the way d20 SW does it, each level of Keen/Improved Crit only adds 1 to the crit range of the weapon (Crits are much more powerful though)
The fighter isn't the only one who gets to autoconfirm crits. Ranger gets to as well against favored enemies at lvl 11, and barbarian can do it 1/rage at lvl 12.
I think the real question is how common do you want crits? Do you want people critting on 12s? The status ailments on crits could get bad, but only if you get that high lvl.
3.0 had may things that made lots of crits broken, like mercurial weapons (increased crit range and crit mod if I remember correctly). Stacking crit effects gor dumb.
Crits do so little damage? Yes and no.
I am playing a crit-specialist in our current game, and can usually get 1-2 crits per full attack action (4 attacks). My crits provide a little less than x2 damage, but they make my damage per strike fairly respectable. The point being with my particular build I can get them fairly consistently. Over the course of a campaign I count on my crits adding a considerable amount of damage (and other situational modifiers once we get to higher levels and I have access to those crit feats) to my overall damage output.
The half-orc barbarian in our group rarely gets a crit with his greataxe, but when he does whatever he hits is dead. Recently he took out the two opposing fighter types with back to back crit shots. Nasty business. When he gets them they are memorable, but he doesn't get them that often. Over the course of a campaign his crits won't add a significant amount of damage to his considerable damage output.
Sean was right, when it came to 3.5. But notice he's on the Pathfinder team now, and he's no longer lobbying for that. Why? I'm guessing it can be summed up in two words: critical feats.
Blinding an opponent is MUCH more useful than dealing 0.023 extra points of mean damage. Keeping the critical feats, and allowing keen and Improved Crit to stack means that all fighters will use scimitar and shield (if shield-bashers), scimitar and kukri (if 2-weapon fighting), or falchion (if going for 2-hd. weapons) -- because lower-crit weapons are such a poor choice in comparison to a 45% chance of blinding your enemy (assuming that hits and you confirm).
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Sean was right, when it came to 3.5. But notice he's on the Pathfinder team now, and he's no longer lobbying for that. Why? I'm guessing it can be summed up in two words: critical feats.
Blinding an opponent is MUCH more useful than dealing 0.023 extra points of mean damage. Keeping the critical feats, and allowing keen and Improved Crit to stack means that all fighters will use scimitar and shield (if shield-bashers), scimitar and kukri (if 2-weapon fighting), or falchion (if going for 2-hd. weapons) -- because lower-crit weapons are such a poor choice in comparison to a 45% chance of blinding your enemy (assuming that hits and you confirm).
Also the Critical Hit deck. Our scimitar-wielding, Improved Critical taking Paladin of Saerenrae was a nightmare with that deck and that was before he took blinding critical and made my days even worse.
Sean was right, when it came to 3.5. But notice he's on the Pathfinder team now, and he's no longer lobbying for that. Why? I'm guessing it can be summed up in two words: critical feats.
Actually, it's because I haven't gotten around to analyzing the math of it in PF, which requires taking those feats into account. ;)
Actually, it's because I haven't gotten around to analyzing the math of it in PF, which requires taking those feats into account. ;)
Right on.
(crit range) * (chance of hitting and confirming) * (opponent's mean damage) * (chance of failing save) * (50% miss for blindness)...I might play with that myself a bit.
I'm not sure I'm going to change anyone's mind one way or the other, but I do find arguments about the specialness of a thing (in this case crits) meritless. If they weren't so special (read: cool! badass! wish I could do that again!) why waste time trying to get more of them? From a game balance perspective I find arguments on both sides to have merit, but I have to say, from a specialness point of view each and every crit my characters get is special to me. How could I choose one to love over the others? And over the years I have birthed many criticals indeed! I still love them all as much as the day I first rolled them. They're my babies. And being maintenance free, I can't wit to have more. I know, I know, I should wait until I meet the right DM, but... I just love rolling the dice. I'll open my dice bag to anyone who catches my eye in a special way. Even if it doesn't work out with them, I'll still treasure the time we spent rolling together, and I'll love each and every crit that results, even the ones for minimum damage. That's how special crits are to me. So...every crit is special, and the more the merrier. That's how special they are.
