(laugh)
Well, what I'm saying is that the inability of a creature or object to block other creatures doesn't magically make it nonpresent.
Also, consider there's no listed size. Maybe it IS really tiny. It only has an effective Str of 2, after all!
The only interaction listed is area effects, which sounds like it's effectively a member of a swarm... missing the swarm.
So maybe it's more like a ladybug than I first thought.
(laugh)
Well, what I'm saying is that the inability of a creature or object to block other creatures doesn't magically make it nonpresent.
Also, consider there's no listed size. Maybe it IS really tiny. It only has an effective Str of 2, after all!
The only interaction listed is area effects, which sounds like it's effectively a member of a swarm... missing the swarm.
So maybe it's more like a ladybug than I first thought.
Actually we have already established that it can't be tiny. At tiny size it couldn't move the amounts the spells say it does -- only at the default size of medium does the Str 2 work.
Actually we have already established that it can't be tiny. At tiny size it couldn't move the amounts the spells say it does -- only at the default size of medium does the Str 2 work.(laugh)
Well, what I'm saying is that the inability of a creature or object to block other creatures doesn't magically make it nonpresent.
Also, consider there's no listed size. Maybe it IS really tiny. It only has an effective Str of 2, after all!
The only interaction listed is area effects, which sounds like it's effectively a member of a swarm... missing the swarm.
So maybe it's more like a ladybug than I first thought.
That strength chart only applies to creatures. The thing has no stats so it can't be a creature.
That strength chart only applies to creatures. The thing has no stats so it can't be a creature.** spoiler omitted **
I understand that, but doesn't the Str2 count as a stat?
Ok, so it has one stat, but it still has no charisma meaning its not a creature, which is a requirement by the rules.
Note to self: Don't debate off memory again.
Man, what a great debate, and how well argued by both sides!
I remember someone trying to ride a Floating Disc once, I pointed out that it's only form of movement was to "follow" you. It follows you at a distance of 5ft. "unless you direct it otherwise", so would that "otherwise" include being commanded to fly forwards if you're sitting on it? I say no. I would say the "unless you direct it otherwise" part is to allow you to approach it to put stuff on it; otherwise it will constantly be 5ft. away from you...
Anyhoo, it's an example of how one spell can be interpreted in different ways. This sort of debate will only ever go away when we get a very clear FAQ, or better written descriptions even though it probably doesn't look like one is needed when a Spell/rule description is first put down on paper.
This must be a complete nightmare for Jason, just when he thought the FAQ was complete up comes a debate over Unseen Servant!
I just noticed this little flawed assumption that slipped away.
I would point out that there is a spell that can do this already with the same spell level and twice the duration taking up four times the space -- the Mount spell.
The mount spell is conjuration summoning, it brings an actual horse or pony into play. A creature, with complete stat block.
When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have.
The spell that creates a mount from thin air is Phantom Steed, a 3rd level spell.
Clearly more powerful than US which is 1st level.
And it lists the stat block for the mount also.
Except the mount spell still summons a mount that lasts 2 hours per level and takes up four squares... You didn't point out anything that wasn't covered in my initial post... you simply picked out a line and moved from there.
Excuse me, flawed assumption was badly phrased.
It's me who confused the two spells; mount and phantom steed.
Except the mount spell still summons a mount that lasts 2 hours per level and takes up four squares... You didn't point out anything that wasn't covered in my initial post... you simply picked out a line and moved from there.
Yes I did, my point is that US is a creation spell and mount and SMI are summoning. The latter bring creatures with complete stat blocks that can act on their own and cannot be controlled directly by the caster. Unlike unseen servant which is in some way an extension of it's will.
I've already said that getting something out of a level 1 spell to block a square(or four) is not going to blow the game. It can be done, just not by the unseen servant.
The difference is in the subschool, not the comparative power of the spell.
So I say that phantom steed, which is in the same subschool, should be the spell to make the comparation, not Mount or SMI. That would be comparing apples to oranges.
And the Phantom Steed is a clear example of a creation spell listing in its description some of the properties needed to occupy and block a space: Namely size, AC and HP. And it's 3rd level.
I see what you are saying now.
Except the mount spell still summons a mount that lasts 2 hours per level and takes up four squares... You didn't point out anything that wasn't covered in my initial post... you simply picked out a line and moved from there.
The problem with comparing it to mount is that mount has stats and is visible and can be attacked by mundane means. Unseen servant is essentially invulnerable to anything other than area effect spells.
If you wanted to give the unseen servant a statblock and make it vulnerable to normal attacks this would be much more reasonable.
Except the mount spell still summons a mount that lasts 2 hours per level and takes up four squares... You didn't point out anything that wasn't covered in my initial post... you simply picked out a line and moved from there.The problem with comparing it to mount is that mount has stats and is visible and can be attacked by mundane means. Unseen servant is essentially invulnerable to anything other than area effect spells.
If you wanted to give the unseen servant a statblock and make it vulnerable to normal attacks this would be much more reasonable.
Actually US is specifically not invulnerable. You can bullrush it, overrun it disarm it et al without any problem since it automatically fails. You simply spend the action to do so. In addition to the fact it has a slower speed and would need a move action to redirect. So while it can't be hurt by simple physical attack it is still not likely to buy more than a round in any combat. This was something I pointed out earlier too.
Actually US is specifically not invulnerable. You can bullrush it, overrun it disarm it et al without any problem since it automatically fails. You simply spend the action to do so. In addition to the fact it has a slower speed and would need a move action to redirect. So while it can't be hurt by simple physical attack it is still not likely to buy more than a round in any combat. This was something I pointed out earlier too.
That's not what the text says; the US is never allowed an attack roll. That doesn't imply that it fails automatically, it implies that it cannot perfom any action that includes an attack roll.
When you attempt to perform a combat maneuver, make an attack roll... if you cannot make the attack roll you cannot use a maneuver. So US cannot perform maneuvers, but we alredy knew that.
The other side of the equation is Combat Maneuver Defense: Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers.
If the US was a character(which is not) or a creature(which is not either) it would have a CMD, implying that it can be the target of a maneuver.
So no CMD exactly means that the subject has no ability to resist combat maneuvers, at all. No need to spend an action then.
Theres another case where all this no attack no saves stuff applies, unattended objects.
And to cite a case of a medium sized object occuppying a space but not blocking the square nor hampering movement there are corpses.
. It cannot be killed, but it dissipates if it takes 6 points of damage from area attacks. (It gets no saves against attacks.)
It can be attacked. In this regard I see it a bit like an object in that you still have to move it out of your way (i.e. bull rush it, overrun it, et al). Since it can hold things it can be disarmed, otherwise that Str 2 can resist everyone in the universe!
That "no saves against attacks" is clumsy but since most attacks don't allow saves anyways it is easy to extend that to "no defense against attacks"... which also makes sense for the spell.
You can't "No action take something from the unseen servant" any more than you can "no action take something from someone unwilling"... extend to the other such actions as well.
. It cannot be killed, but it dissipates if it takes 6 points of damage from area attacks. (It gets no saves against attacks.)
It can be attacked. In this regard I see it a bit like an object in that you still have to move it out of your way (i.e. bull rush it, overrun it, et al). Since it can hold things it can be disarmed, otherwise that Str 2 can resist everyone in the universe!
That "no saves against attacks" is clumsy but since most attacks don't allow saves anyways it is easy to extend that to "no defense against attacks"... which also makes sense for the spell.
You can't "No action take something from the unseen servant" any more than you can "no action take something from someone unwilling"... extend to the other such actions as well.
Except the US is holding something right there convieniently for you with no force to resist you
. It cannot be killed, but it dissipates if it takes 6 points of damage from area attacks. (It gets no saves against attacks.)
It can be attacked. In this regard I see it a bit like an object in that you still have to move it out of your way (i.e. bull rush it, overrun it, et al). Since it can hold things it can be disarmed, otherwise that Str 2 can resist everyone in the universe!
Again heres's where we disagree, it can't be attacked. It can be dissipated by area damage but that's not attacking it. You do not roll to hit it and you do not designate it as a target.
Even if it's there you cannot bullrush or overrun it any more than you can bullrush thin air.
It does not oppose resistance, following the air example: air exerts a force like the unseen servant, it's called pressure. Variations on pressure are what make planes fly... This is how I envision this spell just as a force that obeys the caster's orders.
If the US is "holding" anything such object just floats idle in the spot, unattended. You do not need to disarm the floor when you pick something from it.
That "no saves against attacks" is clumsy but since most attacks don't allow saves anyways it is easy to extend that to "no defense against attacks"... which also makes sense for the spell.
I can't see where are you going here, no saves against attacks just means this, area effects deal full damage against the US.
You can't "No action take something from the unseen servant" any more than you can "no action take something from someone unwilling"... extend to the other such actions as well.
To pick an object is a move action, I do not discuss this.
US is not unwilling since it has no will of it's own. Nothing to extend here.
You can always tell the Unseen Servant to hold a dagger, be under a sheet (or wear a shirt and pants) and stand between you and your enemies.
While this won't stop an enemy who realizes what is going on, it will probably slow them down while they figure it out.
You can always tell the Unseen Servant to hold a dagger, be under a sheet (or wear a shirt and pants) and stand between you and your enemies.
While this won't stop an enemy who realizes what is going on, it will probably slow them down while they figure it out.
What size shirt and pants or sheet? If it doesn't have enough substance to hold a square why does it have enough to wear clothing?
What size shirt and pants or sheet? If it doesn't have enough substance to hold a square why does it have enough to wear clothing?
As the Unseen Servant can do all kinds of chores, I do not see why it could not hold up a sheet (or shirt/pants).
It is not "controlling" the 5' square, it is just something to make others go hmmm, something is there. Would your PC charge into a square with a floating shirt in it? At least the first time, I suspect that anyone would treat it as something to be careful around.
Personally, I can't see an Unseen Servant tactically controlling a map square (especially when most could not even see it). But I can see it doing things to confuse the issue as to what is there (like holding up a suit of leather armor that has been sewn together to be a single outfit with a few hoops to hold it open, in humanoid shape).
You can always tell the Unseen Servant to hold a dagger, be under a sheet (or wear a shirt and pants) and stand between you and your enemies.
While this won't stop an enemy who realizes what is going on, it will probably slow them down while they figure it out.
Holding a dagger, a sheet or even a full set of light clothing, since there's no listed limit on the number of objects it can carry besides the STR limit, is not beyond the capabilities of this spell.
These are all clever and legitimate uses of this singular spell but his is not what is being discussed here.
What's being discussed is if the US by itself can behave like a creature, uccupying his square and as a consequence block another creature from entering it. A thing that I and many others here think is beyond the possibilities of this spell.
A little subterfuge can do wonders to make opponents lose actions, but it's the deceit and the assumptions the foe does that cost them actions, not some liberal interpretation of the wording in a spell description.
What's being discussed is if the US by itself can behave like a creature, uccupying his square and as a consequence block another creature from entering it. A thing that I and many others here think is beyond the possibilities of this spell.
I believe that I stated that I too believed that the spell would not allow the occupation of a square by the Unseen Servant.
One of my goals was to provide another method of using the spell to accomplish the goal of denying use of the space by an opponent.
What's being discussed is if the US by itself can behave like a creature, uccupying his square and as a consequence block another creature from entering it. A thing that I and many others here think is beyond the possibilities of this spell.I believe that I stated that I too believed that the spell would not allow the occupation of a square by the Unseen Servant.
One of my goals was to provide another method of using the spell to accomplish the goal of denying use of the space by an opponent.
You did; in the post I quoted and confirmed it in the next one, you posted while I was typing and I missed it.
Excuse me if I didn't seem to acknowledge it. I do.
I see where you're going in the first part of your post, and I agree.
But please clarify something for me, here:
But, this brings up a point. On slippery surface, like a Grease spell or Sleet Storm, can US push a fallen opponent away? Would it really need an attack roll? And how frictionless is the surface created by such spells? Is 20lbs enough to move a creature?
when you say fallen you mean dead or inconscious? helpless? or just prone?
The US can drag 100lb, I'd allow more in slippery terrain so if the thing dragged is not resisting; dead, inconscious or helpless I'd say yes. If the opponent is just prone then no, US cannot grapple.
I see, then no.
As I said, a grapple or another suitable maneuver would be necessary to move an unwilling foe and this is beyond the power of the US.