That's something that came up in the creative spells use thread.
I could see this done with floating disks, but unseen servants? They are not corporeal and have a really limited strength.I like to have unseen servants carry various wands and staves for me so I can access them quickly and easily.They are also nice for blocking squares in combat to prevent flanking and the like... though I wouldn't assign them both tasks at the same time since disarming an unseen servant is really easy...They are corporeal or they couldn't do anything. Yes with a str of 2, but that doesn't mean they don't take up space... and space is what you need them to take up.
Now they'll auto fail on all combat maneuvers as well as being easy to hit... but most weapons can't hurt them and any time spent on them is time not spent on you... almost like a summons that can't attack.
So I want to share my doubts with you; How is the unseen servant spell supposed to interact with the enviroment aside rom the effects listed in the spell description? Does it take space, for example?
Well first lets post a copy of the spell description just so it's quickly available:
"An unseen servant is an invisible, mindless, shapeless force that performs simple tasks at your command. It can run and fetch things, open unstuck doors, and hold chairs, as well as clean and mend. The servant can perform only one activity at a time, but it repeats the same activity over and over again if told to do so as long as you remain within range. It can open only normal doors, drawers, lids, and the like. It has an effective Strength score of 2 (so it can lift 20 pounds or drag 100 pounds). It can trigger traps and such, but it can exert only 20 pounds of force, which is not enough to activate certain pressure plates and other devices. It can't perform any task that requires a skill check with a DC higher than 10 or that requires a check using a skill that can't be used untrained. This servant cannot fly, climb, or even swim (though it can walk on water). Its base speed is 15 feet.
The servant cannot attack in any way; it is never allowed an attack roll. It cannot be killed, but it dissipates if it takes 6 points of damage from area attacks. (It gets no saves against attacks.) If you attempt to send it beyond the spell's range (measured from your current position), the servant ceases to exist."
In addition it is a first level conjuration(creation) spell for wizards, sorcerers, and bards, with a duration of 1 hour per level that disappears if it gets more than short range away from you.
We know that it is invisible, and mindless, and that it doesn't have a shape. The last one seems the most pertinent to the conversation since that suggests it might not even be around so to speak. However there are creatures that can easily not have a form: Oozes, water elementals air elementals could all simply be shapeless lumps of what they are made of without any recognizable "form". So shapeless doesn't mean without space.
So the real issue we have to contend with is it's spacing... which isn't covered.
We have a couple of options on how to chose it size. First off we could put it at tiny... but then it couldn't do its tasks... as a strength of 2 and tiny size means it couldn't actually expend even 20 pounds of force... same for a small creatures with a strength of 2... in fact only a medium size creature with a strength of 2 has the abilities as listed.
Carrying capacity chart:
Str -- light -- medium -- heavy
"2 -- 6 lbs. or less -- 7–13 lbs. -- 14–20 lbs."
so we have a reference point based on it's abilities to set it's size at medium.
We know it has to be somewhere since we know it has a move speed of 15... it wouldn't need a move speed unless it had to move from place to place to do its actions.
So now we have a reference point for its size and a reference point for it actually needing to be somewhere in space. With those we can deduce that it must in habit a square and as such it probably blocks movement. Since standing still is a task with a DC under 10 the unseen servant could block a square.
Now lets consider this in view of similar spells power of which we have 2 -- Mount and summon monster 1.
Summon monster 1 could conceivably do everything the unseen servant can do plus attack with better move speed. However to counter this it has less duration and is vulnerable to regular attacks too.
Mount summons a mount that has better speed, but no ability to attack. It lasts longer but is vulnerable to normal attack.
So we have:
Attack, vulnerable to attack, shorter duration, better movement.
Non attack, vulnerable to attack, longer duration, better movement.
Non attack, invulnerable to attack, middle duration, power movement.
Now each of mount and summon monster can be used to block flanking, and are balanced against the unseen servant spell... so I don't see the ability to block flanking as a bad thing for the unseen servant, or particularly over powered.
I've always figured that Unseen Servant was a kind of limited Telekinesis, better than mage hand, but weaker than Telekinesis itself.
However, reading the spell description, this is clearly conjecture on my part. (maybe a previous edition described it as a kind of telekinesis, I can't remember.
An unseen servant is an invisible, mindless, shapeless force
I read this, and I can't see any reason to believe unseen servant takes up space...
If an air elemental takes up space, and regular air doesn't then I don't see why the unseen servant shouldn't. Same with a fire or water elemental, both things people can move throw with little issue. All three of which are shapeless. Mindless creatures take up space... see golem and skeleton for that... force takes up space hence wall of force and the various hand spells. So none of those three things limit something from taking up space. After all the air elemental is air... and we move through air without a problem anyways. The unseen servant must plainly be somewhere on the board otherwise there would be no point to it having a move speed.
It's unseen and can't attack. I'm not sure how it can block space, would people trip over it? Do enemies say "I can't go into that space because that thing that isn't there that I can't hit and can't hit me...."
I suppose if you have it holding a dagger then intelligent enemies might assume there is an invisible creature holding a dagger there. Alternately maybe you can give it a sheet to hold up in the air and wiggle around...
So you could probably have some effects that would effectively block the space but I don't see it blocking the space just by being there.
Regardless of logic used, however convincing, I highly doubt that if Jason were to chime in here he would remotely agree with having an US have a form substantial enough to block a space. Doing so would suddenly grant the spell very many additional mechanical benefits and effects not within the scope of the spell.
By saying its shapeless its basically the same as incorporeal without using the same terminology. I think the spell is poorly (too vaguely) worded and attempting to use it to gain benefits that far outstrip its spell level should be doomed to failure. While I applaud creative uses of spells, there comes a point where a DM simply has to say "that is not what the spell designers intended and it is too powerful for the spell level." I'd love to see Jason's thoughts on this, though I am confident he would agree.
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Regardless of logic used, however convincing, I highly doubt that if Jason were to chime in here he would remotely agree with having an US have a form substantial enough to block a space. Doing so would suddenly grant the spell very many additional mechanical benefits and effects not within the scope of the spell.
By saying its shapeless its basically the same as incorporeal without using the same terminology. I think the spell is poorly (too vaguely) worded and attempting to use it to gain benefits that far outstrip its spell level should be doomed to failure. While I applaud creative uses of spells, there comes a point where a DM simply has to say "that is not what the spell designers intended and it is too powerful for the spell level." I'd love to see Jason's thoughts on this, though I am confident he would agree.
How is it suddenly so powerful if it simply blocks a spot?
A mount gives you a height advantage to attack from, summon monster does damage, both of which block at least one square. Either of which can do several of the things that the unseen servant can do (if not all of them generally better).
I'm not trying to be argumentative I just don't see how suddenly this makes the spell too powerful for its level.
If the servant occupies space (as suggested) then what happens when another creature attempts to move through its square?
Can an enemy and the unseen servant occupy the same square?
Does it block line of effect? Certainly not line of sight, but what about line of effect?
Can a creature (friend OR foe) charge through a space occupied by a servant? If it has some semblance of solidity or form, then I'd say no. If its insubstantial and formless then I'd say yes, you could charge right through it.
All of these questions go away if you say that it has no form and occupies no space, which, as I said, I'm sure Jason would agree with if he were here.
I'm not saying its massively powerful. I'm simply saying I do not believe it works that way. Of course you and your DM can do whatever you like in your own game.
I just posit that would not be a correct interpretation of the rules (were one to be made).
We know that it is invisible, and mindless, and that it doesn't have a shape. The last one seems the most pertinent to the conversation since that suggests it might not even be around so to speak. However there are creatures that can easily not have a form: Oozes, water elementals air elementals could all simply be shapeless lumps of what they are made of without any recognizable "form". So shapeless doesn't mean without space.So the real issue we have to contend with is it's spacing... which isn't covered.
First of all I don't think that allowing an US to occupy a space would be overpowered, just weird.
About wether US takes space or not, as you say, the spell description doesn't cover it. Note that said description goes to great lengths to describe all possible interactions with this spell.
Like Dennis and jreyst say, if we allow an US to occupy space but it is effectively denied all the mechanics that describe interaction between objects and creatures(AC, maneuvers, attacks). Then how can it reliably do it within the rules?
But let me take a different approach to this issue.
What do we Know for certain about US?
US is a conjuration(creation) spell
ConjurationEach conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling); create objects or effects on the spot (creation); heal (healing); bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or forms of energy to you (summoning); or transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation). Creatures you conjure usually—but not always—obey your commands.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.
The creature or object must appear within the spell's range, but it does not have to remain within the range.
From the school description we know that conjurations deal with creatures, objects, effects and forms of energy(healing is positive energy manifestation to me).
From the spell subschool(creation) we know that US must be either an object or an effect.
So it can't be a creature, it could still occupy space if it was an object.
From the spell description we know that an US vanishes if sent beyond the spell's range.
The last bolded section says that only creatures or objects can move beyond the spell range.
We know that an US cannot do it therefore it can't be a creature nor an object. It can only be an effect.
I'm comfortable with creatures(mount, summmon monster) or objects(floating disk, spiritual weapon) taking space, but not effects.
edit: BTW Thank you all for your input. :)
We also know that it can be destroyed.
"The servant cannot attack in any way; it is never allowed an attack roll. It cannot be killed, but it dissipates if it takes 6 points of damage from area attacks. (It gets no saves against attacks.)"
It takes damage from area affects... so it has to be in an area. It can't attack since that is directly in its description, but then neither can the mount from the mount spell. It gets no saves against attacks so most attacks simply hit it, however an AC is not given for it my understanding is that it isn't needed... the US can't move out of the way or even attempt a dodge... it just gets hit. Not that it does any good (unless you hit it with say a bomb or alchemist fire) as you don't really damage it.
However as a force with a Str of 2, you can in fact keep something out of an area. not very well by it's not going to be where you are -- simply put force is something and two somethings can't occupy the same space without something really fun going on.
So if it has a move speed, is something, has a strength score, and can be attacked -- how can it not have space?
Every other spell that creates an "effect" such as this has space -- the 'force' hands, the mage's sword, floating disc, wall of force, resilient sphere, forcecage, spiritual weapon, et al.
The only unfortunate thing is simply lumped all the force effects into a descriptor they didn't feel like fleshing out or defining. So we don't have anything there to go on.
We also know it is something -- It is a servant. So something is there... it is shapeless, invisible, and mindless but it is also a servant. A servant isn't an effect, it isn't evocation either it is conjuration and something is created -- per the creation subschool:
"Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates. If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature or object vanishes without a trace. If the spell has an instantaneous duration, the created object or creature is merely assembled through magic. It lasts indefinitely and does not depend on magic for its existence."
So it's not an effect it's an actual thing.
We also know that it can be destroyed.
You seem to infer that the US is corporeal from this premise, because it has HP.
But the premise is false. The US does not have HP.As you conveniently quote:
"The servant cannot attack in any way; it is never allowed an attack roll. It cannot be killed, but it dissipates if it takes 6 points of damage from area attacks. (It gets no saves against attacks.)"
The US cannot be killed as in reduce it's HP to 0. It Specifically says so. The US dissipates if enough damage is dealt to the area it occupies.
It takes damage from area affects... so it has to be in an area. It can't attack since that is directly in its description, but then neither can the mount from the mount spell. It gets no saves against attacks so most attacks simply hit it, however an AC is not given for it my understanding is that it isn't needed... the US can't move out of the way or even attempt a dodge... it just gets hit. Not that it does any good (unless you hit it with say a bomb or alchemist fire) as you don't really damage it.
I accept that the US has a location. I'm not convinced that it blocks said space though.
However as a force with a Str of 2, you can in fact keep something out of an area. not very well by it's not going to be where you are -- simply put force is something and two somethings can't occupy the same space without something really fun going on.
"a something" doesn't sound like a great description to me...
Force(from wikipedia):
In physics, the concept of force is used to describe how a massive body is affected by acceleration or mechanical stress.
Force can also be described by intuitive concepts such as a push or pull that can cause an object with mass to change its velocity (which includes to begin moving from a state of rest), i.e., to accelerate, or which can cause a flexible object to deform.
Force has both magnitude and direction, making it a vector quantity.
Magnitude and direction are described for the US: STR 2 and a list of actions it can perform.
So if it has a move speed, is something, has a strength score, and can be attacked -- how can it not have space?
It has a move speed, is a force, has a strength score and can be dissipated by indirect damage. Note that you cannot target it.
Every other spell that creates an "effect" such as this has space -- the 'force' hands, the mage's sword, floating disc, wall of force, resilient sphere, forcecage, spiritual weapon, et al.The only unfortunate thing is simply lumped all the force effects into a descriptor they didn't feel like fleshing out or defining. So we don't have anything there to go on.
These spells you mention are evocations, and all of them are considered objects. US is not.
We also know it is something -- It is a servant. So something is there... it is shapeless, invisible, and mindless but it is also a servant. A servant isn't an effect, it isn't evocation either it is conjuration and something is created -- per the creation subschool:"Creation: A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates. If the spell has a duration other than instantaneous, magic holds the creation together, and when the spell ends, the conjured creature...
Conjuration(creation) is not limited to create objects or creatures, it also includes effects, like forces.
As I said before, US is a force, it says so in the spell description. It is not a creature and not an object.We've both quoted the rules text. Here and in my previous post.
I think I made a point about what an US is within the rules.
If we are to discuss semantics then let me add something more.
Shape(from wikipedia):
The shape of an object located in some space is the part of that space occupied by the object, as determined by its external boundary – abstracting from other properties such as colour, content, and material composition, as well as from the object's other spatial properties (position and orientation in space; size).
Mathematician and statistician David George Kendall defined shape this way:[1]
Shape is all the geometrical information that remains when location, scale and rotational effects are filtered out from an object.
An unseen servant is an invisible, mindless, shapeless force that performs simple tasks at your command.
Shapeless implying that while US can indeed have a location, it has no space defined. Therefore it cannot block anything like an object or creature can.
It's not just a "something" it is specific in what it is -- a servant. That is spelled out direction in its effects line.
I didn't say it had HP -- I said it could be destroyed. Subtle difference but still important. However an area of effect effect that does less than six points of damage does nothing to it (not even a reduction in its "hp" as it doesn't really have any... it simply is destroyed if hit in an area of effect for more than 6 damage. However you can't tell me someone couldn't aim a fireball at the "location" that the unseen servant is in to destroy -- and that would be targetting the unseen servant -- as would hitting it with a bomb or alchemist fire both of which are area of effects with splash... so it can be target we just don't have an AC to aim at currently).
shapeless doesn't mean without size. After all oozes are shapeless they still have size and space. As can any of the elementals (they don't have to have a shape, they just usually do). Heck even incorporeals take up space.
There is another spell with this issue too: Mage's Faithful Hound
However to sum up the length of this thread we need the following information for the spell to have any sort of real closure on the topic:
1. Does the Unseen servant have space. (this one would end the conversation out right of course)
2. What is the Unseen Servant's AC regardless of it's space (since it can be attacked by inclusion of splash effects) -- this one needs answered either way since the Unseen Servant can be destroyed by area of effects (which splash weapons are). This is needed since there are already effects that could take out an Unseen Servant with a direct attack. IF those effects aren't supposed to be able to destroy an Unseen Servant that needs spelled out too.
3. What all is covered in the {force} descriptor. Which would be generally useful information -- Point of interest why are all the other force creation type spells Evocation instead of Conjuration(creation). There really isn't a difference between Unseen Servant and the various Hand spell, Phantom Steed, Mage's Sword, and Mage's Faithful Hound... as a point of order these should probably be all clarified in one school, as their effects are so similar.
4. Can {creation} effects be destroyed? This would include things like acid from acid arrow (can the acid be washed off before it deals damage again?), solid fog, cloudkill, stinking cloud (of which we know some methods for destruction), and any other spell I didn't notice at first glance. If they are Created effects and therefore are actual instead of just "energy" like the various evocation spells they should be subject to "normal" laws of reality -- such as the washing off of acid... it's something that is covered in several of the spells directly however spelling out some general guide lines in the explanation of the creation subschool would be nice.
1. Does the Unseen servant have space. (this one would end the conversation out right of course)
I disagree. An object in a square does not block a space. If there were a size small inanimate object such as a lamp in a square you would be able to occupy the same square as the lamp and still attack. I might make the space difficult terrain but otherwise it does not interfere with entering or leaving the space. Blocking a space requires something be able to actively engaged in combat.
1. Does the Unseen servant have space. (this one would end the conversation out right of course)I disagree. An object in a square does not block a space. If there were a size small inanimate object such as a lamp in a square you would be able to occupy the same square as the lamp and still attack. I might make the space difficult terrain but otherwise it does not interfere with entering or leaving the space. Blocking a space requires something be able to actively engaged in combat.
So someone cowering doesn't block a square? A small size inanimate object does block for anything up within two size categories of it, just like a small creature does.
So someone cowering doesn't block a square? A small size inanimate object does block for anything up within two size categories of it, just like a small creature does.1. Does the Unseen servant have space. (this one would end the conversation out right of course)I disagree. An object in a square does not block a space. If there were a size small inanimate object such as a lamp in a square you would be able to occupy the same square as the lamp and still attack. I might make the space difficult terrain but otherwise it does not interfere with entering or leaving the space. Blocking a space requires something be able to actively engaged in combat.
You cannot occupy a square with another creature in it. Unseen servant has no statblock, and is not a creature.
To be honest I don't see why you couldn't co-occupy a square with a cowering creature but that's another argument which I don't care to get into.
It's not just a "something" it is specific in what it is -- a servant. That is spelled out direction in its effects line.
Yes, it is a servant. In function, not form.
As you say this is listed under the effects line, not the description.There it's described as being a force.
I didn't say it had HP -- I said it could be destroyed. Subtle difference but still important. However an area of effect effect that does less than six points of damage does nothing to it (not even a reduction in its "hp" as it doesn't really have any... it simply is destroyed if hit in an area of effect for more than 6 damage. However you can't tell me someone couldn't aim a fireball at the "location" that the unseen servant is in to destroy -- and that would be targetting the unseen servant -- as would hitting it with a bomb or alchemist fire both of which are area of effects with splash... so it can be target we just don't have an AC to aim at currently).
I disagree, the US cannot be directly targetted. the fact that you can indirectly guess it's position does not change this.
Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.
Area effects are a different kind of bird.
shapeless doesn't mean without size. After all oozes are shapeless they still have size and space. As can any of the elementals (they don't have to have a shape, they just usually do).
I also disagree, oozes and elementals a can be amorphous(they have a shape but it's undefined), not shapeless. They have boundaries, US does not.
Remember:
The shape of an object located in some space is the part of that space occupied by the object, as determined by its external boundary – abstracting from other properties such as colour, content, and material composition, as well as from the object's other spatial properties (position and orientation in space; size).
By this definition, a shapeless object does not occupy space.
Heck even incorporeals take up space.
Incorporeals are not shapeless.
There is another spell with this issue too: Mage's Faithful Hound
Yes, similar situation.
However to sum up the length of this thread we need the following information for the spell to have any sort of real closure on the topic:
1. Does the Unseen servant have space. (this one would end the conversation out right of course)
I think this has been answered; shapeless = no space occupied. Regardless of location or size. See above.
2. What is the Unseen Servant's AC regardless of it's space (since it can be attacked by inclusion of splash effects) -- this one needs answered either way since the Unseen Servant can be destroyed by area of effects (which splash weapons are). This is needed since there are already effects that could take out an Unseen Servant with a direct attack. IF those effects aren't supposed to be able to destroy an Unseen Servant that needs spelled out too.
US cannot be directly targetted, also see above, thus it needs no AC. Rules for targetting grid intersections are already in use, see combat, splash weapons.
3. What all is covered in the {force} descriptor. Which would be generally useful information -- Point of interest why are all the other force creation type spells Evocation instead of Conjuration(creation). There really isn't a difference between Unseen Servant and the various Hand spell, Phantom Steed, Mage's Sword, and Mage's Faithful Hound... as a point of order these should probably be all clarified in one school, as their effects are so similar.
I've always found that magical schools are at least arbitrary, but they are part of the game and we must cope with them. If we need to start modifying rules so they adapt to our notion of how things work, maybe our assumptions are wrong. Occam's Razor applies here.
4. Can {creation} effects be destroyed? This would include things like acid from acid arrow (can the acid be washed off before it deals damage again?), solid fog, cloudkill, stinking cloud (of which we know some methods for destruction), and any other spell I didn't notice at first glance. If they are Created effects and therefore are actual instead of just "energy" like the various evocation spells they should be subject to "normal" laws of reality -- such as the washing off of acid..
I think you've already answered you own question here. Yes they can, it takes time and resources but it an be done.
it's something that is covered in several of the spells directly however spelling out some general guide lines in the explanation of the creation subschool would be nice.
Nice yes, but necessary... that would depend on your DMing style.
Does Unseen Servant occupy a square? Absolutely. It has to. How else are you keeping track on whether or not it is keeping up with you/staying within the spell's range.
Does it block movement or hinder other creatures by its presence? It doesn't appear so. You could order it to somehow become a hindrance, however (such as picking up a large, light object and then blocking with that).
Does Unseen Servant occupy a square? Absolutely. It has to. How else are you keeping track on whether or not it is keeping up with you/staying within the spell's range.
Does it block movement or hinder other creatures by its presence? It doesn't appear so. You could order it to somehow become a hindrance, however (such as picking up a large, light object and then blocking with that).
Occupying a square for the sake of this debates means another creature can not enter the square. By your requirements an incorporeal creature occupies a square, but would not stop anyone else from standing in the same spot.
Occupying a square for the sake of this debate means another creature cannot enter the square.
I'm aware of that. That's why I had a clarifying second statement. I was merely stating my position on the matter.
In any event, you need to know where your servant is at any given time.
Sunshine occupies a square for the sake of keeping track of it. It does not however impede progress or threaten any adjacent squares.
You might get an unseen servant to untie shoe laces or carry the end of a rope to your accomplice but I think it is simply wrong to assume because you know where a summoning is, it is a combatant. You have to respect the intentions of the game or the game becomes unplayable.
This is not clever, IMHO, it is semantic opportunism.
Sunshine occupies a square for the sake of keeping track of it. It does not however impede progress or threaten any adjacent squares.
You might get an unseen servant to untie shoe laces or carry the end of a rope to your accomplice but I think it is simply wrong to assume because you know where a summoning is, it is a combatant. You have to respect the intentions of the game or the game becomes unplayable.
This is not clever, IMHO, it is semantic opportunism.
RAI? HAHA..HAHAHAHA...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
You sir are a comedian of the first order!
Sunshine occupies a square for the sake of keeping track of it. It does not however impede progress or threaten any adjacent squares.
You might get an unseen servant to untie shoe laces or carry the end of a rope to your accomplice but I think it is simply wrong to assume because you know where a summoning is, it is a combatant. You have to respect the intentions of the game or the game becomes unplayable.
This is not clever, IMHO, it is semantic opportunism.
The simplest way to answer this is to answer one simple question:
Can I have my unseen servant stand in a 5'-wide doorway and block any and all enemies from coming through, because it's "occupying" the space?
As the unseen servant is neither a wall of force, nor does it have attacks of opportunity, clearly the answer is no. By logical extension, the unseen servant thus can't "block" an enemy from flanking you.
As a DM, if anyone attempted to claim such a ridiculously cheesy tactic should work in my game I'd smack them.
So it's the lack of attacks of opportunity that cause you to block stuff?
Come on now, come up with something that makes sense.
How is this cheese by the way? It's not like the US is dropping stuff on things heads.
You really want cheesy you HATE it when I have the unseen servant stuff the portable hole into the bag of holding at maximum distance from me, but right up beside the BBEG...
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I, as the DM, would just red-stamp this "denied due to cheese-factor" next?
Occupying a square for the sake of this debate means another creature cannot enter the square.I'm aware of that. That's why I had a clarifying second statement. I was merely stating my position on the matter.
In any event, you need to know where your servant is at any given time.
As you do with a mage hand, another force effect that moves stuff around for you with very limited strength.
Does the mage hand prevent movement into the square as well?
For Unseen Servant to actually occupy a square, preventing movement through the square by others, it would need to say so in the description.
It would need HP (real HP), and a CMD as well. It doesn't have these things, which would suggest that these things are not needed.
It is cheese because you are asking that a 1st level spell with a 1hr\level duration create a disposable party member. Flanking is a big part of 3.x combat tactics - this would be a big deal.
Though the spell explicitly says "The servant cannot attack in any way; it is never allowed an attack roll." you are expecting it to threaten or disrupt attacks. Even though it is invisible and formless you expect opponents to not only see it but to react as if threatened simply because you can say 'its in the square'.
Its not a bad idea for a spell but I think if you stand back and look at the contribution an illusionary ally would make to combat it's not a 1st level spell with 1hr\level duration. Because you likely know this is asking too much, it is cheese. One could easily stand in the same space and never know there was a US there.
If you had a tactic or action you were directing the US to do I might allow the action to disrupt an action based on a concentration check or save or something. As most of these would be attack rolls though I think you're scuppered by the spell description. If you had the US carry a skull at approximate shoulder level and ventriloquism to make it wail etc. etc... you might make a case. Even then you couldn't actually do anything if someone rushed the square.
Sigurd
It would need HP (real HP), and a CMD as well. It doesn't have these things, which would suggest that these things are not needed.
I would suggest that the CMD isn't needed because it automatically fails defensive checks.
@Sigurd
I'm not expecting it to disrupt attacks anymore than I'm expecting say a box to disrupt attacks. I'm expecting it to take up space. Yes it could prevent flanking... from all of one square. It hardly even buys a round of time with the five foot step. Considering it would take a full move action to redirect the servant every round into a new square it's hardly powerful even.
I would point out that there is a spell that can do this already with the same spell level and twice the duration taking up four times the space -- the Mount spell.
Now the Mount does come with the draw back of actually having HP but it also comes with the other bonuses I pointed out -- the doubled duration, the larger size and the gear needed to ride it.
In order to occupy a space it would have to be at least a certain size, and I am sure such information would have been included if it did take up space. Size is important because if two creatures are far enough apart in size they can occupy the same square. The fact that a size is not listed means it was never intended to actually take up space.
Personally, I would allow a player to command an US to block a space, and it would ready an action to block the first person to move into that space. This would then be an opposed str check against the US with its effective str of 2.
Personally, I would allow a player to command an US to block a space, and it would ready an action to block the first person to move into that space. This would then be an opposed str check against the US with its effective str of 2.
Which the US would automatically fail -- it doesn't get a roll and can't succeed on any task with a DC higher than a 10.
Personally, I would allow a player to command an US to block a space, and it would ready an action to block the first person to move into that space. This would then be an opposed str check against the US with its effective str of 2.Which the US would automatically fail -- it doesn't get a roll and can't succeed on any task with a DC higher than a 10.
Well, I guess that answers the question of whether or not it can block the space, doesn't it :)
could you have it drag round a 100lb 5ft x 5ft x 5ft 'device' you have had specially designed to provide you cover / occupy the space?
have your floating disk carry around the device till its needed then Mr US does his stuff when it is needed?
it could then drag said device over pressure plates and would activate traps!!
Well, I guess that answers the question of whether or not it can block the space, doesn't it :)Personally, I would allow a player to command an US to block a space, and it would ready an action to block the first person to move into that space. This would then be an opposed str check against the US with its effective str of 2.Which the US would automatically fail -- it doesn't get a roll and can't succeed on any task with a DC higher than a 10.
Not at all -- just because it can't resist or cause combat maneuvers doesn't mean it doesn't take up space -- A mount can't perform combat maneuvers but still takes up space.
Not at all -- just because it can't resist or cause combat maneuvers doesn't mean it doesn't take up space -- A mount can't perform combat maneuvers but still takes up space.Well, I guess that answers the question of whether or not it can block the space, doesn't it :)Personally, I would allow a player to command an US to block a space, and it would ready an action to block the first person to move into that space. This would then be an opposed str check against the US with its effective str of 2.Which the US would automatically fail -- it doesn't get a roll and can't succeed on any task with a DC higher than a 10.
If I can't interact with it, how can it prevent me from moving into the space?
Not at all -- just because it can't resist or cause combat maneuvers doesn't mean it doesn't take up space -- A mount can't perform combat maneuvers but still takes up space.
Yes, this is true, but it also makes the point moot. An US cannot resist an Overrun attempt, nor can it act on the AoO provoked by the overrun. So, as an US will always automatically fail an Overrun attempt, there is no reason to assume that it can block a space. It will always be automatically overrun. Same with a Bull Rush. So because the US cannot hinder character movement, it doesn't matter if it takes up a space.
The difference is that small character could not overrun a large mount, and if the character did not have the Improved Overrun feat, it would provoke an AoO from the mount that may end the Overrun.
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I hate it when posts get eaten :( bah.. forum monster, give it back!.
Anyhoo.
To me, whether or not the US "blocks a square" is entirely dependent on the perception of the person who it is blocking. And by perception i don't necessarily mean the skill.
Rather, I mean whether or not they can perceive it and whether or not they know it for what it is.
If I conjure a non-tactile illusionary wall then that wall blocks that square until the person wanting to go through it determines that it is not actually a wall. The wall can not attack. it can not really do anything but sit there looking like a wall.
Similarly the US is so limited. It can not attack it can not defend. It merely sits there invisibly. If you give it a dagger to hold, then an opponent can perceive its existence through conjecture. (i see a dagger, something must be holding it!) and so -to them- there is something inthe square that would stop them from entering the square.
Now we know that they could step into it anytime they wanted. the US doesn't get AOO's. It can't attack.
The would-be attacker however -does not know that-.
All they know is that a dagger is floating in the square.
if they can see invisible then they could see it. If they've seen a US before they might even recognize it. If they have spellcraft they could identify the spell effect (using the Spellcraft rules).
If they can't see it, it isn't holding a dagger (or some other object) then for all intents and purposes the US doesn't exist for the attacker. That is to say- it doesnt' block the square because it can't be seen and can't attack. The best you might could assume is that the would-be attacker feels itself bump into something in the square but given that he is probably going for the wizard and the invisible something didn't gut him with an AOO for entering the square he would probably ignore it and continue on with killing the wizard. (he could however try to pin point the invisible something and try to attack it though which would be resolved normally for trying to find and then attack an invisible creature).
Of course this is all conjecture on my part since the rules themselves do not specifically say what happens with the US in combat, but it seems to make the most sense to me to look at it from the stand point of the opponent rather than from the wizard.
just my .02.
-S
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Player 1: "I move into flanking position next to the evil wizard."
DM: "You can't enter that space, there is an invisible, shapeless form there."
Player 1: "Can I Bull Rush it out of the way?"
DM: "Nope"
Player 1: "Can I trip it, overrun it, do anything to get it out of my way?"
DM, consulting the spell description: "Doesn't seem like you can."
Player 1: "Can I attack it? I'll take the 50% miss chance, but I know what square I'm attacking into."
DM: "Nope, it can only be destroyed by area attacks."
Player 1, playing a fighter/rogue/non-spellcaster: "Ok, can I throw this vial of alchemist's fire into that square and kill it?"
DM: "You can throw it, but alchemist's fire is not an area attack, it's a splash weapon. Soooo you really can't hurt it that way."
Player 1: "But it does splash damage, isn't that kinda like an area attack?"
DM: "I guess so, but it only does 1 point of splash damage."
Player 1: "So you are saying I have to spend 6 rounds throwing alchemist's fire onto the ground to get rid of an invisible, shapeless force that has an effective strength of 2???"
DM: "Ummm... yeah, it seems so..."
Player 1: "&^$#@($*^!!!"
Charisma (Cha)
....... Every creature has a Charisma score. A character with a Charisma score of 0 is not able to exert himself in any way and is unconscious.
The thing has no stats so it is definitely not a creature.
If it's an object it would have to be a certain size to block terrain. I don't see a size listing either.
Not at all -- just because it can't resist or cause combat maneuvers doesn't mean it doesn't take up space -- A mount can't perform combat maneuvers but still takes up space.Yes, this is true, but it also makes the point moot. An US cannot resist an Overrun attempt, nor can it act on the AoO provoked by the overrun. So, as an US will always automatically fail an Overrun attempt, there is no reason to assume that it can block a space. It will always be automatically overrun. Same with a Bull Rush. So because the US cannot hinder character movement, it doesn't matter if it takes up a space.
The difference is that small character could not overrun a large mount, and if the character did not have the Improved Overrun feat, it would provoke an AoO from the mount that may end the Overrun.
Actually by forcing the character to overrun it the US would eat up an action (1 action only), thereby buying the mage a round, possibly. However positioning the US to do such would eat up a move action on the mage's part... something that may have been better spent getting farther away (highly dependent on the situation).
TO be clear I never said you couldn't move the force by bullrushing it or such, and implying I did is incorrect. The US couldn't resist such a manuever and specifically fails the checks according to the spell description. It could be disarmed (you really don't even have to roll), bullrushed, overran, et al without any problem other than the action spent.
I'm not saying that once in place the US would be "invulnerable" or even the "ultimate blocker" because it isn't. With a move speed of 15' a move action being required to direct it, and the ease of 5' stepping around such an obstacle this would be a delaying action at best.
Animated objects don't have a charisma score either so that's not a test in this situation either.
Spells that interfere with movement such as the hand series of spells state so explicitly. I see no such statement for US.
The point in me saying US does not have a charisma score was to disqualify it as a creature.
Since Animated Object are creatures they do have a charisma score. See below
Animated Object CR 3
XP 800
N Medium construct
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Perception –5
DEFENSE
AC 14, touch 10, flat-footed 12 (+4 natural)
hp 36 (3d10+20)
Fort +1, Ref +1, Will –4
Defensive Abilities hardness 5 (or more); Immune construct traits
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee slam +5 (1d6+3)
STATISTICS
Str 14, Dex 10, Con —, Int —, Wis 1, Cha 1
Base Atk +3; CMB +5; CMD 15
SQ construction points
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Enough has already been said about why, by RAW, the servant should or shouldn't be allowed to occupy a space in combat. Here's why I won't allow it:
Servant Horde (from the Spell Compendium.) Simply put, I don't want my NPCs or my PCs to be able to surround themselves with unseen hostages. Consider a level 7 wizard in a 15ft. wide hallway who calls up 2d6+1/lv (max 15) unseen hostages. Even with the bare minimum of 9 hostages, the wizard can line up three on either side of him and have them move down the hallway out to the distance of the spell. Unless his attackers have ranged or area attacks or they can tumble, burrow or fly nobody is going to touch him. And he can always recall his servants and put a buffer of 5-15ft between himself and any tumbling rogues. If he's against a wall at the end of the hallway, he can put 25ft. of hostages between himself and his attackers if he gets all 15 servants.
No. This dog don't hunt.
Exactly. End of discussion, nothing else to see here, keep it moving folks.
If there's a ladybug on the ceiling, it's not blocking traffic, but it's still going to take damage from area effects.
Next?
could you have it drag round a 100lb 5ft x 5ft x 5ft 'device' you have had specially designed to provide you cover / occupy the space?
have your floating disk carry around the device till its needed then Mr US does his stuff when it is needed?
it could then drag said device over pressure plates and would activate traps!!
Yeah, I could see the US moving an object around to block a space. If you could find an object large enough to block but light enough for US to move. Maybe US could push around an oversized hamster ball.
Yeah, I could see the US moving an object around to block a space. If you could find an object large enough to block but light enough for US to move. Maybe US could push around an oversized hamster ball.could you have it drag round a 100lb 5ft x 5ft x 5ft 'device' you have had specially designed to provide you cover / occupy the space?
have your floating disk carry around the device till its needed then Mr US does his stuff when it is needed?
it could then drag said device over pressure plates and would activate traps!!
I might put the ballence check for a giant hampster bal greater than 10 :)
If the designers intended for the unseen servant to interact in melee they would have included rules for it. A stat block, or a bestiary entry. Having a mobile force that makes impassable spaces which cannot be destroyed except by a specific mechanism is way beyond the scope of a 1st level spell. In particular since the Unseen Servant is invisible. Imagine how this could be used against players.
Barbarian: I charge the wizard.
GM: You are stopped 5' short of him by an unseen creature
Barbarian: I swing at the invisible creature
GM: You swing but can't damage it. The wizard laughs and pulls out his crossbow and shoots you.
Barbarian: I step around it
GM: There is another invisible unattackable creature next to it. The wizard shoots you again.
Barbarian: I pull out my bow and shoot the wizard
GM: Wizard has cover from the creature you can't see or hit your attack is at -4
Basically casting unseen servant 4 times would give a wizard an invisible shield and making him almost impossible to attack in melee.
So simple, show me a stat block for US and I'll agree with you. Until I see one it's simply what the spell says "an unseen force".
I might put the ballence check for a giant hampster bal greater than 10 :)Yeah, I could see the US moving an object around to block a space. If you could find an object large enough to block but light enough for US to move. Maybe US could push around an oversized hamster ball.could you have it drag round a 100lb 5ft x 5ft x 5ft 'device' you have had specially designed to provide you cover / occupy the space?
have your floating disk carry around the device till its needed then Mr US does his stuff when it is needed?
it could then drag said device over pressure plates and would activate traps!!
Make it a giant hollow 20 sided shape which the US pushes around. Ideally with numbers printed on the side so I have a good token to represent it on the battle mat.