My suggestion would be to drop all the items that provide flat enhancements to statistics armor bonus, shield bonus, natural armor, attacks/damage, and saves, replacing them with the following:
Heroic Distinctions
True heroes are far from static, realizing great power as they come into their own. Starting at 3rd level, each character gains one heroic distinction every level. Unless otherwise noted, a character cannot select an individual distinction more than once.
Defensive Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn.
Improved Defensive Training: The character receives a +2 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn. A character must be at least 6th level and have the Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Greater Defensive Training: The character receives a +3 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn.. A character must be at least 9th level and have the Improved Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Penultimate Defensive Training: The character receives a +4 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn.. A character must be at least 12th level and have the Greater Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Perfect Defensive Training: The character receives a +5 training bonus to the effective armor bonus of any armor or shield worn. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Penultimate Defensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Offensive Training: The character receives a +1 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon.
Improved Offensive Training: The character receives a +2 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 6th level and have the Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Greater Offensive Training: The character receives a +3 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 9th level and have the Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Penultimate Offensive Training: The character receives a +4 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 12th level and have the Greater Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Perfect Offensive Training: The character receives a +5 training bonus to attacks and damage with a single type of weapon. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Penultimate Offensive Training distinction before selecting this distinction.
Lucky: The character receives a +1 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves.
Blessed: The character receives a +3 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves. A character must be at least 7th level and have the Lucky distinction before selecting this distinction.
Exalted: The character receives a +5 resistance bonus to their Fortitude, Reflex, and Willpower saves. A character must be at least 13th level and have the Lucky distinction before selecting this distinction.
Hardened: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +1. A character must be at least 6th level before selecting this distinction.
Grizzled: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +3. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Hardened distinction before selecting this distinction.
Iron Skinned: The character's natural armor bonus improves by +5. A character must be at least 14th level and have the Grizzled distinction before selecting this distinction.
Strong: The character receives a +2 training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Dextrous: The character receives a +2 training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Hearty: The character receives a +2 training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Intelligent: The character receives a +2 training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Wise: The character receives a +2 training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Charismatic: The character receives a +2 training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 5th level before selecting this distinction.
Mighty: +4 Training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Strong distinction before selecting this distinction.
Adroit: +4 Training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Dextrous distinction before selecting this distinction.
Unyielding: +4 Training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Hearty distinction before selecting this distinction.
Inspired: +4 Training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Intelligent distinction before selecting this distinction.
Attuned: +4 Training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Wise distinction before selecting this distinction.
Majestic: +4 Training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 10th level and have the Charismatic distinction before selecting this distinction.
Herculean: +6 Training bonus to strength. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Mighty distinction before selecting this distinction.
Alacritous: +6 Training bonus to dexterity. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Adroit distinction before selecting this distinction.
Titanic: +6 Training bonus to constitution. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Unyielding distinction before selecting this distinction.
Brilliant: +6 Training bonus to intelligence. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Inspired distinction before selecting this distinction.
Enlightened: +6 Training bonus to wisdom. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Attuned distinction before selecting this distinction.
Awe Inspiring: +6 Training bonus to charisma. A character must be at least 15th level and have the Majestic distinction before selecting this distinction.
For balance reasons it would probably be wise to remove the spells that provide the equivalent enhancements, or at least prevent them from stacking (as they normally wouldn't stack with a permanent enhancement from an item).
This doesn't quite cover everything, I left out Deflection bonuses from items like a Rings of protection, as well as all the "flavor" bonuses like flaming, keen, etc.
For a completely no-magic setting, I'd suggest removing those as well, changing it to two distinctions per level, and writing up the "flavor" items using these as a guideline.
I dunno, I really don't think a massive arms pile of magic items is necessary, and actually I have found the bigger the pile gets the smaller the fun gets.
I think it was back in the late 80's we became jaded with the concept of a Fighter with his +5 Longsword, +5 Shield with his +5 Full Plate etc... simply, it became all about the gear, and just about any putz cardboard cut out could drive that stuff around so 'personality' became important.
If you want to strip the Magic Items from your game, or just leave a couple of signature items kicking about, then go right ahead and do it - the whole flavour of the game changes (I feel for the better) and it has no drawbacks so long as the GM has the nous to bear this in mind when looking at the style of encounters he plans to put up.
Then again, as a GM you can feel free to throw ANYTHING at the party you choose, CR or no CR, as its usually their decision to attack or not, and sometimes running away or designing tactical scenarios (to overcome the disadvantage - think 300 at Thermopylae; CR mismatch much?) adds to the story.
Erm... Brodiggan... didn't you go to a bit more trouble than necessary? Why make a 5 separate +1 distinctions when you could have instead just stated that you can take the +1 attack and damage distinction 5 times, and cannot take it again for 2 levels therafter and use something similar for the rest?
I considered just rolling the various levels of each bonus type into one ability, but I decided to lay them out separately for a few different reasons. One, it follows the same basic format that Feats and some class abilities follow, and there's definitely something to be said for readability. Second, it makes it easier to tweak for balance, if it turns out that something needs to be moved a level or two to keep it from being overpowered, but moving it up at the high end wouldn't work, I can just adjust each level independently. And third, it's just kind of fun to say that your character is "Blessed" or "Inspired" or "Herculean"... admittedly, the various levels of Offensive/Defensive training are kinda lacking in flavor, but having the others as distinct abilities lets you add some appeal to the whole process, and make it feel a little less like you're just filling out a spreadsheet or an order form.
I'll reiterate my suggestion to check out the Star Wars Saga Edition Core book to see an example of this.
Saga Edition does indeed work in such a way that assumes low item bonuses. However, a good deal of that power is also made up for in Talents. While I do like talents, I'm not entirely sure how to convert them over. I can't just import the entire system. Then I'd either be re-writing the entire game OR I'd be playing Saga Edition .... which defeats the point of playing D&D. Also, that system isn't as "perfectly balanced" with Pathfinder as I would like, either. I don't know if "+1 damage every two levels" is going to work, here.
"Houserules are hard to write/balance, so you should make the simplest ones which do the job"
I do agree with this. This is why I've been pushing for a static chart of bonuses that coincide with what players would "normally" get. The "invisible item" idea also seems like a good fix, too. I'm concerned that PC's will clamor for abilities that don't fit the campaign,though. I really am more concerned with eliminated the enhancers, which are purely numeric. I'm less concerned about duplicating the effects that many items bring to the table. Don't get me wrong, it's probably a very workable idea, and if people want it, then I'm glad it came up. However, I am personally not fond of it. But hey, just cause I started this topic, doesn't mean I want to limit what's talked about. Provided the conversations stay on the topic of "How to get rid of necessary magic items" I'll be happy to read along!
Lord Griffin: I've increased the rate at which you get ability score boosts from 1 every 4 levels to 1 every two levels, as I grew tired of all my players wanting stat boosting items. I can't blame them… although I love the AP, Age of Worms, one thing that annoyed me was that just about every NPC had at least one stat boosting item late in the campaign, and it just got old.
The only thing I would suggest is to cap how much you can put into one ability score and limit access to stat boosting items. I didn't want them completely gone from my game, but as far as magic items go, potent or not, they are pretty uninteresting.
I'll reiterate my suggestion to check out the Star Wars Saga Edition Core book to see an example of this.Saga Edition does indeed work in such a way that assumes low item bonuses. However, a good deal of that power is also made up for in Talents. While I do like talents, I'm not entirely sure how to convert them over. I can't just import the entire system. Then I'd either be re-writing the entire game OR I'd be playing Saga Edition .... which defeats the point of playing D&D. Also, that system isn't as "perfectly balanced" with Pathfinder as I would like, either. I don't know if "+1 damage every two levels" is going to work, here.
"Houserules are hard to write/balance, so you should make the simplest ones which do the job"I do agree with this. This is why I've been pushing for a static chart of bonuses that coincide with what players would "normally" get. The "invisible item" idea also seems like a good fix, too. I'm concerned that PC's will clamor for abilities that don't fit the campaign,though. I really am more concerned with eliminated the enhancers, which are purely numeric. I'm less concerned about duplicating the effects that many items bring to the table. Don't get me wrong, it's probably a very workable idea, and if people want it, then I'm glad it came up. However, I am personally not fond of it. But hey, just cause I started this topic, doesn't mean I want to limit what's talked about. Provided the conversations stay on the topic of "How to get rid of necessary magic items" I'll be happy to read along!
The simple thing to do then, I think, would be to use the 'invisible item' method to buy level-appropriate items. You create the list\menu of choices for each character class\race\concept. I don't have it handy, but pathfinder has on its npc chart an amount of gold for each type of item (offensive, defensive, etc.) by level, you could use the percentages of PC wealth (to buy invisible items, not actual wealth) there to figure out limits on individual items, etc.
These are sort of like 'talents' in saga (which I put forth as an example, not necessarily a purely compatible system). Fighters have access to one list, wizards another. You could include some 'special effects' as well as pure enhancements to spice it up, but keep them 'non-flashy' such as speed, fortification, holy, etc. (or flashy if you want).
If you're looking purely for a scaled enhancement to weapons and ability scores, here's a quick idea I had (a thought experiment in process):
In the pathfinder game, the characters are assumed to have a certain amount of worth of gear per level, and the NPC table breaks it down by type. A 20th level NPC has 34 percent of their gear allotment in weapons. Multiplying the PC's 'wealth' by 34 percent at 20th level, you end up with the number rougly around 304,000. That would by 3 +10 equivalent items, with a little leftover to buy some magic arrows. But the party doesn't need 3 +10 weapons (since the bonus\onus is on the character), so we'll just assume that a 20th level character has +10 capabilities (you could make them 'specialize, but that's your choice, i.e. they have to buy 3 weapons bonuses)
Anyways, the pc's skill at that level reasonably matches a +10 weapon in the low-magic item campaign.
Scaling back evenly, every even level, give them the equivalent bonus on weapons of +1. Eventually, they will need to choose special effects. If you don't want special effects (speed, flaming, radiant burst), then do a +1 every four levels.
EVERY PC gets that. You could make it every +2\+4 on BAB if you want to give fighters and rogues a little more oomph. Or just say fighter-typess are the only ones that can choose certain special effects, etc. so they get the +1 every 2 levels. The same goes for AC (characters get a +1 to whatever they're wearing every four levels, starting at 2 or 4.
Also, then give one or two extra ability score point for the 'prime requisite' (there's a blast from the past!) every four starting at level four (or three or two to avoid being on at the same time as the primary ones, or keep them if its easier to remember. This assumes you'll get the +5 enhancement bonus at 20th.
That SHOULD bring the numbers in nearly identically with a geared PC of a similar level. You still have to watch that you don't give them critters that they can't defeat (unless that's the idea).
The "invisible item" idea seems to work, but what's the diference between having a visible and a invisible one? You are still using money to buy attributes and nat armor, for example, they just don't present themselves as shinning magic itens. I don't know if this is what you're looking for.
And as MIB pointed balancing a chart may be hard.
Some other ideas:
You could go E6 (or E8, or whatever). If you aren't familiar with it, it's a mod idea where you stop leveling at level 6 (or whatever) and instead gain a bonus feat every 5000 xp -- your character gets better in indirect rather than direct ways.
The benefit of E6 is that you avoid some of the weird features that creep in as you get to mid-high levels. Since many of the 'festooned with magical tree ornaments' issues become noticeable around level 10...
Another possibility is limit direct enchantments to, say, a total of X (say, 8000 gp). Everything else must be a potion or 'interesting' magic items.
Theoretically, this would mean the fighter is 'balanced' because he has a ring of spell storing, winged boots, and other stuff. Sure, he'd still have a pile of magic loot, but it'd be more interesting than '+4 this, +2 that'
To differentiate invisible items from magic shoppe items, it needs terms. We need a name for the abstract gp (I've been using " karma" to get my shadowrun loving players on board) and someone should cook up feat-like names for the individual purchased bonuses. The other unresolved issue is how to manage slots - I think you should allow 15 item slots and invisible item slots combined. Basically an invisible item takes up one "anyslot". I'm presuming that a gm might want to hang on to quite a few magic items that are tough to rationalize (flaming weapon?) and just get rid of the boring "common" magic trinkets.
Mok, I was hoping you'd show up. A couple questions about your chart. Where did it come from? I assume that most of the bonuses are progressive (ie, a +2 ring replaces the previous +1 ring), however the "ability boost" section jumps around a bit. Are those supposed to be separate items altogether?
William Timmins, I found the E6 idea. It would be a hard sell to my group, but I REALLY like it conceptually. I'll have to look into it more and maybe fashion a game around it. Thanks a ton for bringing it to my attention.
Silver Eye, although I don't think I'll be using the "invisible item" idea, I do admit that it is MUCH better than using actual items. First of all, I doubt that any of us are talking about using actual gold pieces to purchase these abilities. Every level, when you level, you get X amount of "karma points" to spend on new abilities. This has several advantages.
1. No more constant looting of everything. This works fine in video games where you can quickly click-to-own and click-to-sell, but the tedium of writing everything down, finding buyers and finding sellers can make the game unnecessarily tedious.
2. It "feels" more heroic. If you don't understand the importance of this, than I really can't help you.
3. It's more story-like. Seriously, read a fantasy novel or watch a fantasy movie. I gave a few examples in my original post. I challenge you to find a serious title where the main characters are awesome because they have nice things. Even the D&D movie, which spoofs this system, only showcased the plot relevant gear.
4. .... Okay, I could go on and on, actually. And while most of my points don't focus on "invisible items" specifically, it IS important to note that I'm in favor of any system that does away with "Ye Olde Magik Item Shoppes" that no GM seems to like and that all GMs have to include.
finding buyers and finding sellers can make the game unnecessarily tedious.
I dunno, I reckon you miss an awesome campaign hook for the party Rogue in developing a network of Fences, or even starting his own Guild to provide an outlet for all the booty...erm...'Merchandise and fine wares'
Makes sense :)
I was more concerned that buying and selling can be a fun part of the campaign and don't HAVE to be relegated to the status of a red-headed step child :p
Yeah the wealth levels can get a little crazy.
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Have the monk (who can't bypass DR) aide another so that SOMEBODY can hit with attacks that WILL work."I spend my turn giving him +2. Your go."
It's not fun. Make sure you're not doing this to anyone.
Just to jump in with a small proposal, from the story of Hercules and the Nemean lion, the phrase "genie-wrestling monks of Jalmeray" in the CS and an incident with a character of mine and a gargoyle:
Allow grappling damage (strangling, constricting, body slams, bashing against objects and the like) to bypass DR.
Monks would do well out of this, but it would remain at best a second-rate option for high-STR melee characters and a pretty stupid idea for anyone else.
One complication or quibble I can see arising is that falling damage and objects dropping on a creature, which would seem to be very similar effects, don't avoid DR (they just do large amounts of untyped damage to get through it). I'd be happy to say that grappling is a manifestation of the same PC glow that explains high-level hit points and jumping distance, but as I say, some might complain.
LordGriffin:
Quite welcome! Stumbling on threads about it really blew my mind. Mainly because it's a very SIMPLE change that has far-reaching effects.
I mean, by setting an E6 or E8 game, you stop some of the weird spell effects in mid/late game that turns a fantasy game into a scifi 'teleport ambush'-rich game with weird arms races, you avoid some of the number wonkiness (I roll 1d20 and add... 38? Meh), you avoid some spells that can drastically change the game, etc.
At the same time, with PF, you can still make scrolls of whatever. It's hard, it's tricky to cast... but you can still cast that teleport when it's very important.
Instead of fiddling around trying to rework the system to avoid loot weariness later in the game, you ... don't.
Granted, I understand about the hard-sell. I've been trying to talk my players into it for about a year now. :/
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the "vow of poverty" feat from book of exalted deeds that exchanges magic items for abilities see this link for a discussion by class:
You could assume that all characters have the feat involuntarily.
It was brought up in the initial thread.
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My group already does the low magic item games. On the surface it seems you have to change very little to get by with this. Just up CR's of some monsters and such. But the reality is a bit more complicated, you need to adjust some of the spells to or the melee types get completely over shadowed by casters.
We found the effort was more than worth it. Now magic items tend to be rare but have real importance to them. We pretty much did away with just a +1 sword and instead added little something to them to make them a bit more interesting.
You know, that hadn't really occurred to me.
There's something to be said for low-balling most treasure rewards, and then rolling up most of the value into rare big caches.
So, instead of 20 +1 swords sold at the local Spellmart (buy smart! Buy Spellmart!), you get a Mace of terror.
Hmmm.
Silver Eye, although I don't think I'll be using the "invisible item" idea, I do admit that it is MUCH better than using actual items. First of all, I doubt that any of us are talking about using actual gold pieces to purchase these abilities. Every level, when you level, you get X amount of "karma points" to spend on new abilities. This has several advantages.1. No more constant looting of everything. This works fine in video games where you can quickly click-to-own and click-to-sell, but the tedium of writing everything down, finding buyers and finding sellers can make the game unnecessarily tedious.
2. It "feels" more heroic. If you don't understand the importance of this, than I really can't help you.
3. It's more story-like. Seriously, read a fantasy novel or watch a fantasy movie. I gave a few examples in my original post. I challenge you to find a serious title where the main characters are awesome because they have nice things. Even the D&D movie, which spoofs this system, only showcased the plot relevant gear.
4. .... Okay, I could go on and on, actually. And while most of my points don't focus on "invisible items" specifically, it IS important to note that I'm in favor of any system that does away with "Ye Olde Magik Item Shoppes" that no GM seems to like and that all GMs have to include.
Oops! I think I should have been more specific.
I really like the idea of this threa of get rid of this whole +1, +3 , +5 thing.
Actually I'm sick of MUST HAVE itens because they're just boring. I have to use a +5 sword because without this I won't hit anything isn't very heroic as you say.
I was just speaking of 'invible itens' but in favor of others systems presented here.
Personally I like the idea of giving a +1 to two attributes every two levels and create a progression of AC (maybe a point every two levels or depending on the bab). This option seems the more heroic because the character will grow in personal power and learn to defend better with time. Becoming more powerful, wise or intelligent than an ordinary being of their race.
A friend and I are working on this option for balancing the development of these numbers. I hope it is useful.
Hi,
I've posted a set of rules that might provide some bits towards what LordGriffin is trying to achieve. These rules provide replacements to items, in the form of bonuses, computed against the WBL, and following either character level, BAB or caster level. Some other ideas have been added to help with the disappearance of scrolls, wands, etc. I've also added the idea of marks, that I got from Eberron. I wish to expand that system and add marks, but have not finished yet.
Feel free to chime in on this thread and give me your thoughts.
Regards,
DW
Of the years I've been playing D&D (and now Pathfinder because it's just plain better), I've had the same DM most of the time.. He plays VERY low-magic and low-wealth. Right now, we're starting a game at level 6 with 3500 gold per PC (wealth by level suggests 16,000) and a max of one magic item each, just to give you an idea.
Once you get used to playing under such strict wealth control however, it's quite a lot of fun. In fact, my group has gotten so good at making the right kind of characters and thinking tactically, that the DM still often has trouble providing a true challenge for us after level 10 or so without being openly cheesy. (I just about threw my Pathfinder book at him last time we fought a group of assassins in magic armor only to be told at the end of the battle that their armor was in ribbons and would be irreparable, due to the ferocity of the battle.. Personally, I would've just made them a race that had innate DR/- or given them barbarian levels instead of taunting is with that magic aura.)
I fought him tooth and nail for a long time about upping the power level of the game, but now that I've learned to just let it go, it's a lot of fun most of the time. I still want to throw my book sometimes, though.. and I think the Pathfinder book would be at least 2d6 as a thrown weapon. :p Of course, that's all just his style of game, and I would never run a game the way he runs them, but DMs are like snowflakes..
I just want to say that the ideas in this thread have really inspired me, and my next campaign will likely use some form of "invisible items" as character advancement. I like the idea very much, although I'll try to restrict overtly magical things (flaming weapon) and emphasize those that could be attributed to personal strength (ability or save increase).
Thanks for the constructive discussion all, it reminds me of old times.
I just want to say that the ideas in this thread have really inspired me, and my next campaign will likely use some form of "invisible items" as character advancement. I like the idea very much, although I'll try to restrict overtly magical things (flaming weapon) and emphasize those that could be attributed to personal strength (ability or save increase).
Thanks for the constructive discussion all, it reminds me of old times.
Good luck and make sure you let us know how you handle it and how it goes.
I'm thinking of terminology to help divorce the concept from "invisible items". Mana of all things, in its original Polynesian sense, more or less captures the concept exactly. It has developed a different meaning in gamer culture, though, which might put some people off.
In general though, we're just trading Ye Olde Magick Shoppe for a Karmic Magic Shoppe. It's a great compromise for those who hate Ye Olde Magick Shoppe, because it makes magic scarce and powerful while preserving the balance of the game and emphasizing the internal strength of characters.
Well done, friends!
Think of it as totems and blessings of the gods.
Why are you magically stronger? Because you've honored the spirit of the Bear, who watches over you.
Etc.!
Hi,
I've posted a set of rules that might provide some bits towards what LordGriffin is trying to achieve. These rules provide replacements to items, in the form of bonuses, computed against the WBL, and following either character level, BAB or caster level. Some other ideas have been added to help with the disappearance of scrolls, wands, etc. I've also added the idea of marks, that I got from Eberron. I wish to expand that system and add marks, but have not finished yet.
Feel free to chime in on this thread and give me your thoughts.
Regards,
DW
Sorry, missed the linking thingy... One more time!
Think of it as totems and blessings of the gods.
Why are you magically stronger? Because you've honored the spirit of the Bear, who watches over you.
Etc.!
Could work, but I hope to avoid conceptual interactions with divine magic. It would be nice to drop into any pathfinder campaign that way. To that end, let individual players interpret the purchases as they wish. But we still need some terminology for the GMs to agree on.
Mana (or similar) works because it is based on the central tenet of murder-based advancement: kill a thing, take its strength. What matter if it is a bauble from 'round its neck or the vital energy from consuming its still-beating heart — 'tis loot just the same!
Here is a rough draft of a concrete reference for our "Karmic Magick Shoppe". I am eager to ensure that all the unintended effects are addressed, so I have stubbed in a few issues I predict will be important. Please comment and let me know what I might be missing!
Dreaming Warforged, I'll look at your thread when I get home tonight.
For now, I would like to point out that I ran some numbers. I went through the Beastiary and averaged all of the monster's attack progression by CR. I also used the Player's Handbook II, which gives a level by level list of what items the PCs "should" have at any given level. I ALSO went through, level by level to figure out how much AC the PCs should have via the Wealth by Level chart. (I assumed a 35% investment into defense).
I have a nifty line chart, but I don't know how to post it. Basically, though, as you advance in level, even if you continue to gain AC, it becomes easier and easier for monsters to hit you. A level 1 monster can only hit an average level 1 PC on a 16 or better. By level 10, that drops to a 7.
Here's the interesting part. According to Wealth by Level, everything after 10 (11-20), an average monster will always need a 5 or better to hit a properly equipped character. If I use the Player's Handbook II, though, that number continues to drop. By level 20, a monster needs to roll a -2 to hit on it's primary attack. These numbers DO make a few assumptions about armors and feats, of course. However, a TOTALLY decked out ranger or barbarian would only be able to get that number up to about a 4 if that was his entire focus (max dex increases, AC feats, +5 magical everything, etc.)
I'll see if I can make a page to post my numbers in a more appeasing way. They're actually fairly interesting.
ALSO went through, level by level to figure out how much AC the PCs should have via the Wealth by Level chart. (I assumed a 35% investment into defense).
Hey LG, were those figures run on 'stock' Pathfinder with all the toys one would expect, or just in "Low Fantasy Land"?
My vague understanding is that this is pretty much how the AC progression runs anyway, and that eventually you pretty much abandon AC and try get Avoidance.
The way we approach it is that in mid to late game AC becomes important to get missed by iterative attacks and to reduce the times enemies use power attack.
I don't know how much this changes in PF.
Why not switch game engines to something that's actually built around this type of play?
Harn, Burning Wheel and GURPS with a low magic campaign are all geared towards "You get the Awesome Boost because you are the Big Damned Heroes."
Trying to make Pathfinder work for this is sort of like saying "I like pizza, but only after you remove the meat, the cheese, the sauce and the mushrooms."
One of the default assumptions of 3.5 and its ilk is that by about 8th level, you make people with Detect Magic wear sunglasses to avoid being dazzled.
Here's a funky idea... positive levels.
You know, like you have negative levels, which are -1 to most things and -5 hit points?
Have Positive Levels, which give you +1 to most things and +5 hit points. Every 5 levels? Every 4 levels?
Thoughts?
Wouldn't do this in my campaigns, this is an interesting thread:
What about simply expanding on Table 3–1: Character Advancement and Level Dependent Bonuses in the core book (p.30)?
Using the list from the link Mok provided as a guide, a preliminary format might look like :
4th: +1 to all saves, +1 bonus to AC (+1 dodge bonus if no armor)
6th: +1 to all attack rolls, +3 bonus to AC (+1 dodge bonus if no armor)
8th: +2 to all saves, +4 to AC (+2 dodge bonus if no armor), +2 to one ability
11th: +2 to attack rolls, +6 to AC, +3 to saves
12th: +7 to AC (+3 dodge bonus if no armor)
14th: +3 to attack rolls, +9 to AC (+4 dodge bonus if no armor), +4 to saves, +2 to one ability
15th: +10 to AC (+5 dodge bonus if no armor), +5 to saves
16th: +4 to attack rolls, +12 to AC, +1 to one ability
17th: +13 to AC (+6 dodge bonus if no armor), +2 to one ability
18th: +5 to attack rolls, +16 to AC (+7 dodge bonus if no armor), +2 to one ability
19th: +6 to attack rolls, +17 to AC (+8 bonus if no armor)
20th: +7 to attack rolls, +18 to AC, +3 to one ability
Maybe tweak it some to even out the progressions (getting a bonus a level earlier or later shouldn't be a big deal). Then change the wealth by level table by simply adding what all the enhancements would cost and subtract that amount from the values given in the table for each level.
Dreaming Warforged, I'll look at your thread when I get home tonight.
For now, I would like to point out that I ran some numbers. I went through the Beastiary and averaged all of the monster's attack progression by CR. I also used the Player's Handbook II, which gives a level by level list of what items the PCs "should" have at any given level. I ALSO went through, level by level to figure out how much AC the PCs should have via the Wealth by Level chart. (I assumed a 35% investment into defense).
I have a nifty line chart, but I don't know how to post it. Basically, though, as you advance in level, even if you continue to gain AC, it becomes easier and easier for monsters to hit you. A level 1 monster can only hit an average level 1 PC on a 16 or better. By level 10, that drops to a 7.
Here's the interesting part. According to Wealth by Level, everything after 10 (11-20), an average monster will always need a 5 or better to hit a properly equipped character. If I use the Player's Handbook II, though, that number continues to drop. By level 20, a monster needs to roll a -2 to hit on it's primary attack. These numbers DO make a few assumptions about armors and feats, of course. However, a TOTALLY decked out ranger or barbarian would only be able to get that number up to about a 4 if that was his entire focus (max dex increases, AC feats, +5 magical everything, etc.)
I'll see if I can make a page to post my numbers in a more appeasing way. They're actually fairly interesting.
Its only the heavy armor shield guys that AC is supposed to matter against the highest level monsters. Everyone else is just trying to get it high enough so secondary or iterative attacks have a decent chance of missing. But certainly against primary attacks AC becomes less and less important. But then again, PC's have more HP, so in terms of %of HP damage per round, it remains pretty balanced if secondary and iterative attacks are missing, to when at lower levels, the primary attacks were missing.
Hey LG, were those figures run on 'stock' Pathfinder with all the toys one would expect, or just in "Low Fantasy Land"?
These are relatively "stock" numbers. Basically, I assume the best armor with maxed out max dex at any given level. This also includes an "off-hand" AC bonus. Heavy shield provides up to +7. Off-hand sword gives up to +5 (with the defending trait if you go that route). Monks and Duelists add Wisdom or Int, which CAN get up to +7 or so. If you don't have Off-hand AC, then the numbers are going to be lower than I factored for. I also didn't consider Feats, which can add 2 more points (Dodge, Shield Focus, Two-Weapon Defense).
As far as I can tell, you're supposed to get hit by a primary attack most of the time, so an 80% hit chance seems about right. But if that number gets much worse, then there's little point in HAVING AC at later levels (which has been pointed out before, of course). I'm probably going to cook up some numbers that will give that 80% chance (from levels 11-20) without all the extra baggage.
Why not switch game engines to something that's actually built around this type of play?
Harn, Burning Wheel and GURPS with a low magic campaign are all geared towards "You get the Awesome Boost because you are the Big Damned Heroes."
Trying to make Pathfinder work for this is sort of like saying "I like pizza, but only after you remove the meat, the cheese, the sauce and the mushrooms."
One of the default assumptions of 3.5 and its ilk is that by about 8th level, you make people with Detect Magic wear sunglasses to avoid being dazzled.
There are hundreds of different systems, and I'm rarely in the mood to learn a new one just to see if I like it. And, by and large, I don't like most systems. I've actually run "Medieval Shadowrun" before, and that was a HUGE hit, but sometimes people want "good ol' D&D". We just think the magical item requirements are retarded. I'm not going to learn 3 new systems just because ONE aspect of a system isn't working out for us. Chances are pretty good that they'll have other issues I don't like ... and less fan support to go with.
I don't know the other two, but GURPS and its superdeadly combat and exponential returns on skill investments aren't the game the OP is looking for, either. Having a pile of magical junk is assumed for D&D but hardly inextricable from the game.
Super-deadly combat is something of a truth, in that one hit that gets through armor can impair you, and one solid hit that gets through armor can put you down.
Handing out Hero Points (which lets someone roll an active defense twice when they need to) is one way to get around the "Wait, sword blows HURT."
As to exponential returns on skill investments...the real problem with GURPS' skill model is that once you get a skill to about level 16, there's very little that getting it higher will do, other than combat circumstantial penalties. Getting it to 25 pretty much means the nastiest circumstantial penalty in the game will drop you to merely succeeding 95% of the time.
For the kind of game described (where players aren't festooned with glowie magic items by halfway through their adventuring careers), GURPS works well. (GURPS works less well for the kinds of things that Pathfinder is good at.)
Now, LordGriffin has said he's not interested in learning a new system, so the recommendation is moot. But yeah, there are some ill chosen inheritences in the D&D model.
LordGriffin, the following probably won't do what you want for an RPG, but it uses the same mechanics as D&D does (Roll d20, add modifiers, compare to target number). Minimus
It's also only four pages long, and many of its elements can be ported over to D&D/PF, like the Bennies system. (In short, you accumulate Bennies for pursuing character goals; when used, they allow you to roll multiple d20s and take the best result. Or force someone else to roll multiple d20s and take the worst result.)
It will probably make Man In Black's skin crawl, because it doesn't boil down to DPS calculations ("How fast does my cheese grater slice off hit points?"), but many of the concepts are system neutral.
There are hundreds of different systems, and I'm rarely in the mood to learn a new one just to see if I like it. And, by and large, I don't like most systems. I've actually run "Medieval Shadowrun" before, and that was a HUGE hit, but sometimes people want "good ol' D&D". We just think the magical item requirements are retarded. I'm not going to learn 3 new systems...
Well you get a few choices here
1) Switch to a mundane, non-magical setting/system
2) Don't run any games past, maybe 8th level
3) Rebalance the ENTIRE game to take into account PCs don't have access to magic items.
Please let's not get bogged down in the pros and cons of switching systems. It was always an option, but I think many of us see merit in the idea of a fix for pathfinder.
I, for one, would stop way short of a system switch - not because I don't like and play other systems! I just happen to dislike mundane magic items. Especially those for which it is not readily apparant what they do in the game world because if is just an abstract bonus.
There have been great solutions mentioned already here for my goals, so I'd rather not be told that the thread is pointless an I should just switch systems. Let's move on from that debate, if possible. Thanks!
Here is my take on it. I believe these ideas can supplement sufficiently the lack of magic items, as they follow in a good part the WBL guidelines. Of course, the item creation feats are not accessible. These have been posted on a separate thread.
These rules should be implemented when a DM tries to stay away from “The Big Six” magic items, and wishes to grant only very rare access to magic items.
DR/Magic
This requirement is replaced by DR/Mithril. Mithril still is equivalent to silver regarding DR, but not the other way around.
Incorporeal opponents
Normaly, magic weapon had a 50 % chance reduction of their bonuses, while ghost touch weapons were doing full damage. Silver and Mithril give the same advantage than
Defensive Training
Every character level, a character gains a +1 bonus to defense. The bonus can be applied as an armor enhancement bonus to AC, a deflection bonus to AC, a natural armor bonus to AC or a resistance bonus to one of the three saving throws. The choice is made every time a bonus is received and cannot be changed. The armor bonus must always be higher or equal to the other two bonuses but cannot exceed any of them by more than +3. For example, you can have +4 armor, +4 deflection, +1 natural armor, +1 fortitude, +2 reflex, +0 will, but your next bonus must then go to your will save before you could raise your armor bonus, though you could raise all other, except deflection.
Armor bonuses can be imbued with special abilities, like Fortification. The decision can be changed every time a new enhancement bonus to armor is gained.
Physical and Mental Training
Starting at level 7, and every two character level after, one of your attributes receives an enhancement bonus of +2. Three attributes must be raised to the same level before an attribute can be raised further. For example, three attributes must have been raised to +2 before one of them can be raised to +4.
Martial Training
Starting at BAB +4, a character receives an enhancement bonus to hit and damage made with a weapon or a natural weapon of +1. This bonus goes up by +1 for every three points of BAB he has above +4 (so +7, +11, +14, +17, +20). A character can apply this bonus to more than one weapon, used simultaneously, albeit the bonus is reduced by one for all attacks.
Mystical Training
A character can also use his martial training bonuses to imbue his weapon, as a ten minutes meditation, with special abilities like flaming. These bonuses can be applied to two different weapons, with a +1 cost, or all his natural attacks, with a +2 cost. The character can only change what special abilities he can imbue every time he changes level. For example, a 7th level fighter can imbue a weapon with the Holy enhancement (equivalent to +2). Upon reaching level 8, he can now modifie this enhancement to Ghost Touch and Keen, or apply Flaming to a weapon Frost to two weapons to be used simultaneously. The character cannot give the enhancement to someone else’s weapons. These bonuses do not stack with the likes of Magic weapon, Greater magic weapon, Magic fang or Greater magic fang.
Esoterical Training
Every day, a full spellcaster can recollect a number of spells, which levels add up to half his caster level. For example, an 11th level cleric can recollect up to five levels of spells: one 1st, one 2nd and one 3rd, or a single 5th level spell, etc.
The spells recollected have a minimum casting time of ten minutes.
Spell Storing
Spellcasters can imbue special items to store their magic. Items must be wielded for the magic to be restored, as a standard action, or more if the casting time was longer. A caster can have spells of levels adding up to his caster level stored at any one time. Putting spells into items takes one hour of preparation per spell level and expends the spell on the caster list. Only the spellcaster can use the item.
Vast Knowledge
Spellcasters know one extra spell per spell level they can cast. For the wizard, it is spells he can add to his spellbook. For the bard or the sorcerer, it is spells known.
Skill Training
Skill training is only available to character who have levels in classes other than full spellcaster or full BAB classes. For each five levels, they can select a skill as their focus. They receive an enhacement bonus of +5 to that skill.
Marks
Characters can use feats to gain spell-like abilities. Those feats grant special marks that scale with the level of the character.
Least marks give access to a spell of level 1 or less, twice per day. For every four levels beyond the first, the character gets another use of the spell.
Lesser marks give access to a spell of level 3 or less, once per day. For every four levels beyond the fifth, the character gets another use of the spell. Characters must have the least mark of the same family and have a related skill with 5 ranks.
Greater marks give access to a spell of level 5 or less, once per day. For every four levels beyond the ninth, the character gets another use of the spell. Characters must have the lesser mark of the same family and have a related skill with 9 ranks.
Supreme marks give access to a spell of level 8 or less, once per day. For every four levels beyond the fifteenth, the character gets another use of the spell. Characters must have the greater mark of the same family and have a related skill with 15 ranks.
The following families of marks are available: binding, birth, cunning, death, detection, finding, freedom, nature, healing, hospitality, magic, passage, making, protection, scribing, secrets, shadow, thunder, truth, warding.
Regards,
DW