Monks: A Treantmonk Guide (Optimization)


Advice

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So have we settled on a ruling on whether you can MacFlurry without a weapon?

The book says...

"any combination of unarmed
strikes or attacks with a special monk
weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff,
sai, shuriken, and siangham)

I see the "or" to mean you can MacFlurry with unarmed strikes only, or, Minky weapons only, or, any combination of the two.

If you had to have at least one weapon wouldn't it read...

"any combination of unarmed
strikes and attacks with a special monk
weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff,
sai, shuriken, and siangham)

I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not sure...


A Man In Black wrote:
Since I am epically uninterested in statting out a full monk, let's do a scratch attack line for a level 10. Starting 16 str

That's less than I recommend for a 10 point buy. 18 is the standard. Read the guide.

Quote:
+2 amulet of mighty fists. (Let's set aside holy/element for now; it's situational and less good for overall damage than you'd think.)

Let's not. I can get a +2 enhancement from other sources. If you want less situational, make it flaming/frost or something. However, I still recommend Holy for dealing with DR.

Quote:
Target AC for a skirmisher at level 10 is 22 (AC 24 standard, -2 for flanking)

Average AC for a CR 10 critter is 22. (22.18 to be more precise). So target AC should be 20 unless this is a harder than average target.

Quote:
How much damage can a monk do in a full round?

We don't know yet.

Quote:
Okay, maybe he power attacks. And let's say the GM is nice and gives you flurry BAB for power attack.

Why wouldn't he?

Quote:
+13/+13/+8/+8, d10+14 dmg, extra attack 7-9 times a day

So lets go with +14/+14/+14/+9/+9, d10+15 dmg, (plus 2d6 per attack vs evil) vs. target AC of 20.

Average damage per hit: 20.5 vs good/neutral, 27.5 vs evil

Average damage per round: 57, or 89 vs evil.

Vs. the 130 hp creature - if it's evil, that's a 2 round kill (even if the flanker does nothing).

If a flanking rogue can do equivalent damage, then that's a 1 round kill.

Quote:
It's about on par with a single-weapon, unhasted, not-optimized-for-damage rogue. (If the rogue TWFs or gets more attacks from haste/Boots of Speed it's no contest.)

I would like to see a comparison.


A Man In Black wrote:
Since I am epically uninterested in statting out a full monk, let's do a scratch attack line for a level 10.

If you are 'epically uninterested', why bother with the thread?


Treantmonk wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
Since I am epically uninterested in statting out a full monk, let's do a scratch attack line for a level 10. Starting 16 str

That's less than I recommend for a 10 point buy. 18 is the standard. Read the guide.

Quote:
+2 amulet of mighty fists. (Let's set aside holy/element for now; it's situational and less good for overall damage than you'd think.)

Let's not. I can get a +2 enhancement from other sources. If you want less situational, make it flaming/frost or something. However, I still recommend Holy for dealing with DR.

Quote:
Target AC for a skirmisher at level 10 is 22 (AC 24 standard, -2 for flanking)

Average AC for a CR 10 critter is 22. (22.18 to be more precise). So target AC should be 20 unless this is a harder than average target.

Quote:
How much damage can a monk do in a full round?

We don't know yet.

Quote:
Okay, maybe he power attacks. And let's say the GM is nice and gives you flurry BAB for power attack.

Why wouldn't he?

Quote:
+13/+13/+8/+8, d10+14 dmg, extra attack 7-9 times a day

So lets go with +14/+14/+14/+9/+9, d10+15 dmg, (plus 2d6 per attack vs evil) vs. target AC of 20.

Average damage per hit: 20.5 vs good/neutral, 27.5 vs evil

Average damage per round: 57, or 89 vs evil.

Vs. the 130 hp creature - if it's evil, that's a 2 round kill (even if the flanker does nothing).

If a flanking rogue can do equivalent damage, then that's a 1 round kill.

Quote:
It's about on par with a single-weapon, unhasted, not-optimized-for-damage rogue. (If the rogue TWFs or gets more attacks from haste/Boots of Speed it's no contest.)
I would like to see a comparison.

Is it here where I mention the monk is level 10 and probably has medusa's wrath?


Ben Adler wrote:
Quandary wrote:
Re: Shuriken, is there anything by RAW preventing Flurrying + Rapid Fire?
Nope, you can also add in Multishot as well.

Actually not for that, since it specifies bows and arrows (also barring X-bows) unlike Rapid Fire which just says "Ranged weapons".


A good guide with solid recommendations, as usual. Thank you.
But I wonder why you didn't explore the dexterity centered Monk route. Ok, it is more feat intensive as you have to take Weapon Finesse and possibly Agile Maneuvers but imho it is well worth it.

Based on your 25 point buy example(Str is now 14, Dex 19):

- More AC and a better reflex save (2 points, 3 after the bump to Dex 20)
- 2 points better Acrobatics, Escape Artist and Stealth checks.
- Power Attack only has Str 13 as a prerequisite and you don't need a higher strength score to use it to its full potential.
- You might loose 2 points of damage from each hit but trading Dex for Str with finessable weapons will only marginally decrease your average damage.
- Ranged attacks(Shuriken) will really hit their mark.


Tholas wrote:

A good guide with solid recommendations, as usual. Thank you.

But I wonder why you didn't explore the dexterity centered Monk route. Ok, it is more feat intensive as you have to take Weapon Finesse and possibly Agile Maneuvers but imho it is well worth it.

Based on your 25 point buy example(Str is now 14, Dex 19):

- More AC and a better reflex save (2 points, 3 after the bump to Dex 20)
- 2 points better Acrobatics, Escape Artist and Stealth checks.
- Power Attack only has Str 13 as a prerequisite and you don't need a higher strength score to use it to its full potential.
- You might loose 2 points of damage from each hit but the increased to hit chance will more than make up for that(for Monks and most 2WF types).
- Ranged attacks(Shuriken) will really hit their mark.

Mentioned this as well, in a previous post, and what you will see is that a dex monk doesn't see his higher dex bonus used as much as a higher Str bonus. Dex differs from strength in that it increases a monks defense rather than offense. If a monk didn't have a crap-ton of attacks it would be more of an even trade (that is, a monk probably is attacking more times than an equal CR opponent is attacking him back). Does a Dex monk work? it works alright. Is it optimized? not as much as a strength based monk.

Grand Lodge

Oh great and powerful Treantmonk, please enlighten me. Monks also get crossbows. Is the investment of rapid reload, and then the feats to make you an 'archer', so deep as to make it a Red (to use your color guide) choice? Wouldn't it allow a monk to basically work like your 'Switch Hitter' ranger build?

Dark Archive

Don't forget the biggest deal to monk builds are comparatively lower to hit and ac; damage isn't the only thing funneled through strength. Also your CMB


A Man In Black wrote:
Anburaid wrote:
oh common, man. That is an obvious exploit. Even if its not spelled out in the RAW, no DM would let that fly. If that were true monks would be stupid to not be jumping for their movement at all times. Their horizontal jumping distance often match's most people's speeds.

Man, I know, it's going to make monks totally overpowered!

:|

If the jumping rules are not useful for jumping over things, what are they useful for?

Laughed for a solid two minutes after reading that. Good job.

I'm a big fan of the Bladed Scarf myself. only a d6 but hell, reach, no penalty to adjacent, 19-20 crit range. It's a decent weapon to build around. Drop a level or two in Rogue for some sneak attack damage and you'd be surprised how quick the enemies drop.

As for the wave of people griping about...well, whatever class its fashionable to gripe about today, Monk's are good. My fiance is playing a monk/roge/shadowdancer, and it's a neat, flavorful build.

Monks are best suited for fighting humanoids. Against a mage or cleric you're going to own. My stance on them has always been that they are heavily geared to take down player-types. Grappling, and any Combat Manuevers for that matter, get exponentially better as a monk levels up. You can grap a caster, keep them grappled, and beat on them all at the same time!


nathan blackmer wrote:
I'm a big fan of the Bladed Scarf myself. only a d6 but hell, reach, no penalty to adjacent, 19-20 crit range. It's a decent weapon to build around. Drop a level or two in Rogue for some sneak attack damage and you'd be surprised how quick the enemies drop.

Where can I find that weapon? I don't remember seeing it in the main book.


QOShea wrote:
nathan blackmer wrote:
I'm a big fan of the Bladed Scarf myself. only a d6 but hell, reach, no penalty to adjacent, 19-20 crit range. It's a decent weapon to build around. Drop a level or two in Rogue for some sneak attack damage and you'd be surprised how quick the enemies drop.
Where can I find that weapon? I don't remember seeing it in the main book.

Pathfinder Campaign Setting, and it's nasty.


Don't know if this has been mentioned yet. Being lazy and don't want to look thru some 100 odd posts.

How do people feel about the temple sword from Pathfinder Campaign Setting? Viable option for the Monk to spend a feat on or is it better spent on something else?


nathan blackmer wrote:
QOShea wrote:
nathan blackmer wrote:
I'm a big fan of the Bladed Scarf myself. only a d6 but hell, reach, no penalty to adjacent, 19-20 crit range. It's a decent weapon to build around. Drop a level or two in Rogue for some sneak attack damage and you'd be surprised how quick the enemies drop.
Where can I find that weapon? I don't remember seeing it in the main book.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting, and it's nasty.

And it's being updated to conform to PRPG norms in the Adventurer's Armory.


Quandary wrote:
nathan blackmer wrote:
QOShea wrote:
nathan blackmer wrote:
I'm a big fan of the Bladed Scarf myself. only a d6 but hell, reach, no penalty to adjacent, 19-20 crit range. It's a decent weapon to build around. Drop a level or two in Rogue for some sneak attack damage and you'd be surprised how quick the enemies drop.
Where can I find that weapon? I don't remember seeing it in the main book.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting, and it's nasty.
And it's being updated to conform to PRPG norms in the Adventurer's Armory.

I figured it would be, but as of now it's legal. I'd like to hope they don't monkey with it too much, I don't think it's too dangerous at 1d6. The weapons are too vanilla as is, I'm looking forward to more in the Armory. The real nasty one from the Campaing Setting is the Falcata, at 1d8 19-20 X3 it's a beast.

Dark Archive

I would assume they took away either reach or close range; they wanted to eliminate "spike chain" sillyness, and the weapon you described was functionally a spiked chain (1 damage for a threat range is a typical dnd trade).

The Exchange

nathan blackmer wrote:
Quandary wrote:
nathan blackmer wrote:
QOShea wrote:
nathan blackmer wrote:
I'm a big fan of the Bladed Scarf myself. only a d6 but hell, reach, no penalty to adjacent, 19-20 crit range. It's a decent weapon to build around. Drop a level or two in Rogue for some sneak attack damage and you'd be surprised how quick the enemies drop.
Where can I find that weapon? I don't remember seeing it in the main book.
Pathfinder Campaign Setting, and it's nasty.
And it's being updated to conform to PRPG norms in the Adventurer's Armory.
I figured it would be, but as of now it's legal. I'd like to hope they don't monkey with it too much, I don't think it's too dangerous at 1d6. The weapons are too vanilla as is, I'm looking forward to more in the Armory. The real nasty one from the Campaing Setting is the Falcata, at 1d8 19-20 X3 it's a beast.

I actually like the Sawtooth Sabres. A TWFer with EWP in these is weilding 1d8/19-20X2 as light weapons. Then you start getting the 2 for 1 feats like Improved Crit on them, Weapon Focus, and you are doing some cool stuff.

And BTW, if you wanted to do a monk with a Temple sword it would work but I personally don't think the return on investment for the feat is good enough. I would have loved to see the monk be able to use one of it's bonus feats for proficiency in ANY one weapon and have that weapon count as a monk weapon.


Abraham spalding wrote:


From the PRD:
"monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

RAW wouldn't this suggest that you don't need the Amulet of Mighty Fists to enchant your unarmed attacks? (in particular the effects line?)

If so the amulet would still be useful from the perspective of stacking effects on your hands while getting the enhancement bonus to hit and damage.

Liberty's Edge

Well, the thing about weapons is there's limits to what they can do without unbalancing things.

I did an in-depth look at this in 3.5, and here's what I figured:

Base weapon is 1d6, 20x2 crit range. That's for a medium size, one-handed weapon. Increasing wielder size or handedness increases the base damage by one die step (the die step progression is not even, but that's a separate issue). Decreasing does the opposite.

Beyond that, each weapon gets a certain number of 'points' (for lack of a better term). Simple Weapons get two points, martial get 4, and exotic get five.

Increasing the weapon's damage by one die step is two points, and can only be done once. Increasing the Crit Range by one step is two points, and can only progress on one axis. Anything else is one point.

So a Club is 1d6, 20x2 threat range, with one point in 'throwing 10ft range' and one point in 'free'. A Morningstar is 1d8, 20x2 threat range, with two points in increasing damage. A longsword is 1d8, 19x2 threat, so two points in increased damage and two in threat range. A Bastard sword is three points in damage and two in threat range. etc.

Some traits are basically flavor, like a morningstar doing piercing and bludgeoning or a falchion doing 2d4 instead of 1d8. Monk weapons had a problem; the rules treated being a monk weapon as something the item had to 'pay for' in points, and it shouldn't have, since it's just flavor.

The Dagger, the Rapier and the Spiked Chain all stuck out as being technically overpowered, but I didn't see any real problems with the first two. The Spiked Chain was crazy overpowered, and we all know it.

So, reviewing the previous posts, there's a couple points. First, the weapon with 1d8, 19x3 crit range is fair if and only if it's exotic and that's all the traits it has.

Second, the scarf is... problematic. 1d6, 19x2 threat range. I'm also going to guess exotic. So 5 points. Two for the threat range, one for increased reach, so that's three. The ability to strike at adjacent foes on a reach weapon only popped up on Spiked Chain and its derivatives, which were all broken, and on a funky Exotic spear in Arms and Equipment that was otherwise just a longspear. I guess being able to strike adjacent with a reach weapon would be two points, so it's fair if it's an exotic weapon.

Back on topic: how should we deal with the Monk Weapon issue? Every martial art includes a different set of weapons they train in - some use the Monk Core weapons, some use Clubs, some use Swords and Falchions.
One the one hand, just letting monks pick, say, "any four martial weapons" for free seems wonky to me. On the other hand, forcing them to spend a feat or enhancement bonus on just that seems even more wonky.
I think the solution lies in providing special options for the classes' first level feat, something I believe WotC did in Ebberon. Like they could take "Lunge" and gain proficiency in Longspears, or Step up and get Falchions, but only if they did so with their first level monk feat.

I leave it to someone who's better at typing rules to hammer out the details, but there's potential here.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Quandary wrote:
Ben Adler wrote:
Quandary wrote:
Re: Shuriken, is there anything by RAW preventing Flurrying + Rapid Fire?
Nope, you can also add in Multishot as well.
Actually not for that, since it specifies bows and arrows (also barring X-bows) unlike Rapid Fire which just says "Ranged weapons".

Awww, if they say it works for crossbows, it should work for everything.

I can't imagine much harder to do than loading 2 bolts in one crossbow and firing it accurately (or at all).
And all other ranged weapons are mechanically inferior to bows pretty much.


I know reality is sort of irrelevant, but weren't Shuriken actually thrown by the handful anyway?


Evil Lincoln wrote:
I know reality is sort of irrelevant, but weren't Shuriken actually thrown by the handful anyway?

Depends on the shuriken. Bo-shuriken were decently damaging spikes. Hira-shuriken were very small discs. Most of the point of using hira-shuriken was to distract, annoy, or poison, as opposed to dealing lethal direct damage.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just thought I'd throw this out there. But two feats the monk in my RotRL game enjoys using are Hamatulatsu (PFCS, pg. 83) and Belier's Bite (Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax Empire of Devils).

Both have made her quite scary in combat. Hamatulatsu allows her treat her attacks as bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage. Every round she changes the damage from the attack her treat range decreases by one, max 16-20 after 5 rounds. Plus if she confirms a crit she can make an intimidate check to leave her foe shaken, and her threat range resets. Hamatulatsu is available to monks at 2nd level as a bonus feat.

Belier's Bite let's her unarmed strikes do extra bleed damage.


Lazaro wrote:

Just thought I'd throw this out there. But two feats the monk in my RotRL game enjoys using are Hamatulatsu (PFCS, pg. 83) and Belier's Bite (Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax Empire of Devils).

Both have made her quite scary in combat. Hamatulatsu allows her treat her attacks as bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage. Every round she changes the damage from the attack her treat range decreases by one, max 16-20 after 5 rounds. Plus if she confirms a crit she can make an intimidate check to leave her foe shaken, and her threat range resets. Hamatulatsu is available to monks at 2nd level as a bonus feat.

Belier's Bite let's her unarmed strikes do extra bleed damage.

Darn good point. Hamatalatsu is nasty. I was just looking at that for a bad guy the other day.

Sczarni

Regarding Beliers Bite, does anyone know if the bleed damage actually causes constant bleeding or is it just a name?

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The bleed damage continues until the target gets healing of some kind, DC 15 Heal check or a spell that cures hit point damage.


Beliers Bite was written oddly. While it references that it does extra 1d4 bleed damage in addition to unarmed damage it doesn't state that the target continues to take the damage. The way it reads it sounds that the target just takes 1d4 additional damage from each unarmed attack and thats it.


sysane wrote:
Beliers Bite was written oddly. While it references that it does extra 1d4 bleed damage in addition to unarmed damage it doesn't state that the target continues to take the damage. The way it reads it sounds that the target just takes 1d4 additional damage from each unarmed attack and thats it.

That's why you look up the Bleed in the condition area. All bleed is bleed and subject to the bleed rules...

It could have been clearer though.


"Anburaid' wrote:
Is it here where I mention the monk is level 10 and probably has medusa's wrath?

Yes it would. My mistake. Make a stunning fist work anywhere within the Flurry of Blows and Medusa's Wrath kicks in, increasing damage to:

88 vs good or neutral

OR

130 vs. EVIL - TADA! One round kill.

Quandry wrote:

Shuriken, is there anything by RAW preventing Flurrying + Rapid Fire?

Not that I'm aware of, however, I would look carefully at the cost/benefit. You are already getting alot of Shuriken - getting one more at a cost of -2 to hit on all of them may do more harm than good.

Tholas wrote:
But I wonder why you didn't explore the dexterity centered Monk route.

It is a trade of offense and Combat Maneuver effectiveness for Defense. That's a bad trade for Monks.

Also, that +2 damage per attack increases with level as the Dex focused Monk focuses on Dex instead of Str in regards to stat increases and those magic belt enhancement bonuses.

I did explore the dexterity Monk enough to come to the conclusion that you don't want to take that route - at least from an optimization standpoint.

Dax Thura wrote:

Oh great and powerful Treantmonk, please enlighten me. Monks also get crossbows. Is the investment of rapid reload, and then the feats to make you an 'archer', so deep as to make it a Red (to use your color guide) choice? Wouldn't it allow a monk to basically work like your 'Switch Hitter' ranger build?

Yes it would be red, no it wouldn't work like the Switch Hitter Ranger build.

The switch hitter is working off a full BAB, has a good ranged weapon, and is getting bonus archery feats.

The Monk would be using an inferior weapon, working off 3/4 BAB, and would be spending valuable feats on an inferior attack that doesn't get the benefit of Flurry of blows.

Go ahead and take a crossbow for situations where you otherwise can't do anything, but Monk is not the class to focus on Crossbow.

Really, crossbow is a pretty lousy weapon, but if I was to make a character that used one, I wouldn't be a Monk.

Maybe a Bard for Arcane Strike? Or maybe a rogue?

sysane wrote:

How do people feel about the temple sword from Pathfinder Campaign Setting? Viable option for the Monk to spend a feat on or is it better spent on something else?

Sorry, I can't comment as I don't own the book.

Petrus222 wrote:
RAW wouldn't this suggest that you don't need the Amulet of Mighty Fists to enchant your unarmed attacks? (in particular the effects line?)

You are suggesting for a Monk to get his fists directly enchanted?

"BobChuck' wrote:
Back on topic: how should we deal with the Monk Weapon issue?

Actually, houserules are off topic. There was a thread regarding "fixing" Monks. That's where houserules for Monks should be discussed.

This thread is for making the best of Monks as they appear in the rules.

Thanks!

Dark Archive

How do you feel about Boots of Striding and Springing at lower levels? Bonus to acrobatics and +10 foot movement.

After reading this guide, I've built a half orc monk and am awaiting a time to play him :)


Todd Morgan wrote:

How do you feel about Boots of Striding and Springing at lower levels? Bonus to acrobatics and +10 foot movement.

After reading this guide, I've built a half orc monk and am awaiting a time to play him :)

Let us know how he turns out.

Frankly, I think slower classes benefit more from the boots. Monks have pretty good acrobatics ability and good land speed.

That said, overall, I think boots of striding and springing are a decent item for any class. I just don't think they are especially suited to Monks in particular.


Todd Morgan wrote:

How do you feel about Boots of Striding and Springing at lower levels? Bonus to acrobatics and +10 foot movement.

After reading this guide, I've built a half orc monk and am awaiting a time to play him :)

Please note that while the acrobatics bonus is nice, the speed bonus is a complete bust for the monk... it's an enhancement bonus... same as his class ability.

So actually boots of S&S are near useless for the monk.

A ring of jumping provides the same bonus to jump checks (please note the boots specify that the bonus to acrobatics is for jumping only) at less than half the cost.

Dark Archive

Good call, I'll have to relay that to my friend who just purchased them who plays a dwarven monk.

I went for a more balanced approach with a 20 pt buy:
Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 14
Cha 10

I also took the Cheliax Feat to cause 1d4 bleed damage to make up for the 5% loss to hit and 1 pt damage from not having an 18 str.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Treantmonk wrote:
Average AC for a CR 10 critter is 22. (22.18 to be more precise). So target AC should be 20 unless this is a harder than average target.

I'm using the monster creation table, because it covers both monsters (which tend to have lower AC and higher HP) and classed humanoids (vice versa). Even if you shift the numbers around, the monk is still doing about the same amount of damage as a TWF rogue if the monk pops a ki, and slightly better than a 1h rogue if not.

Quote:
Quote:
Okay, maybe he power attacks. And let's say the GM is nice and gives you flurry BAB for power attack.
Why wouldn't he?

Because the feat says that you use 3/4 BAB for qualifying for feats. I've seen GMs make calls either way.

Quote:
Quote:
+13/+13/+8/+8, d10+14 dmg, extra attack 7-9 times a day

So lets go with +14/+14/+14/+9/+9, d10+15 dmg, (plus 2d6 per attack vs evil) vs. target AC of 20.

math

You increased the damage and to-hit, added holy apparently for free, lowered the target AC, and assumed a popped ki. Doing things like that to my scratch numbers will give you unrealistically high results, sure. I was comparing it to the rogue from the rogue TWF thread, where I applied similar limitations.

I'll cover monks in the DPR Olympics thread for some proper numbers.


Treantmonk wrote:


Petrus222 wrote:
RAW wouldn't this suggest that you don't need the Amulet of Mighty Fists to enchant your unarmed attacks? (in particular the effects line?)

You are suggesting for a Monk to get his fists directly enchanted?

Yes.


So... how does one get masterwork fists? Good genes?


Tholas wrote:

A good guide with solid recommendations, as usual. Thank you.

But I wonder why you didn't explore the dexterity centered Monk route. Ok, it is more feat intensive as you have to take Weapon Finesse and possibly Agile Maneuvers but imho it is well worth it.

Based on your 25 point buy example(Str is now 14, Dex 19):

- More AC and a better reflex save (2 points, 3 after the bump to Dex 20)
- 2 points better Acrobatics, Escape Artist and Stealth checks.
- Power Attack only has Str 13 as a prerequisite and you don't need a higher strength score to use it to its full potential.
- You might loose 2 points of damage from each hit but trading Dex for Str with finessable weapons will only marginally decrease your average damage.
- Ranged attacks(Shuriken) will really hit their mark.

I made such a monk once (the other was Str-based) and it was fun to have her jump around the battlefield. The other thing she got was Combat Reflexes, and she made a good use of these attacks of opportunity. After all, how many times a round can you Greater Trip? :-)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

This thread and the guide make me tempted to try either a shuriken thrower monk, or one armed with a longspear (and the 3.5 feat that made it a monk weapon) and spec'd for preventing movement and spellcasting.


Thanks for a great guide. Anyway. Half-orks no longer get the +2 Str bonus, they get a +2 bonus to one ability score of their choice. I know you know this since you mention this in your other guides so I guess it's just a minor mistake.
Can you update your bard guide with 20 point buy and 25 point buy options (I'm going to create a 25 Point buy Bard and would love an updated guide = your advice). I really love you have all three options (15, 20 and 25 PB) in your monk guide.
We had a 3.5 monk a long time ago who use disarm and spring attack.
The first thing he did was run over to the foe grabbed his/her weapon.
Bows, X-bows, wands, even melee weapons. And now with the CMB boost the monk has this tactic should be even more fun.
I guess it's still unclear if you can use spring attack and combat Maneuvers. Have you heard anything?
Thanks again for a great guide.
I hope you create a barbarian guide. They really need one. I think the monk, bard and barbarian are the weakest classes. That's why it's so nice you are doing these guides.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Ben Adler wrote:
one armed with a longspear (and the 3.5 feat that made it a monk weapon) and spec'd for preventing movement and spellcasting.

How do you intend to make this work?

Dark Archive

Bonjour Treantmonk,

Once again I thank you for all your guides and most of all : I like your style. I am not a fan of power gaming but optimization is a good trade-off. And you make an honest optimizer.
Nevertheless I have one request. Could you put these guides in Google Documents (as for ranger and Wiz i think) instead of SRD ?
This Damn Firewall from my company blocks me from reading your guide and to be completely honest I don't feel like going to see the IT Director to ask him to remove the blocking of SRD Site. ;o).
That would be absolutely great for one of my player who's playing a monk ;o). And for me too.

If you can do the same with all guides....

Merci TreantMonk !


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
A Man In Black wrote:
Ben Adler wrote:
one armed with a longspear (and the 3.5 feat that made it a monk weapon) and spec'd for preventing movement and spellcasting.

How do you intend to make this work?

Trip and Stand Still mainly, for preventing movement.

Since longspear gives the monk a 10' reach, and he still retains threatened squares from his unarmed attack (since he can use legs etc...) he gets just as good of a threatened area as a Spiked Chain does.
This means he can do a reasonable job of locking down a fairly large area.

Now he won't be able to get Disruptive/Spellbreaker, which is a shame, but forcing a mage to cast on the defensive is harmful enough, and with a 10' reach/threatened area mages won't be able to 5' step outside threat range.

I prefer using monks for threatening casters, since they have much better saves, better speed (than fighters), and some nice little add-ond like SR later on, all of which make it harder for mages to take them out.
That aside, it's one of the few areas monks can actually excel in.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Ben Adler wrote:
Trip and Stand Still mainly, for preventing movement.

Neither of these things synergize with a longspear.

Quote:

Since longspear gives the monk a 10' reach, and he still retains threatened squares from his unarmed attack (since he can use legs etc...) he gets just as good of a threatened area as a Spiked Chain does.

This means he can do a reasonable job of locking down a fairly large area.

Except that he doesn't "lock down" any but the adjacent squares, since he can't trip or use Stand Still at reach.

Quote:

I prefer using monks for threatening casters, since they have much better saves, better speed (than fighters), and some nice little add-ond like SR later on, all of which make it harder for mages to take them out.

That aside, it's one of the few areas monks can actually excel in.

*sigh* Monks don't fly, they don't see invisible, and they don't see through illusions. They're slightly better at avoiding harm from spells but except for situationally applying Stunning Fist they're even worse at inconveniencing spellcasters than straight full-BAB melee, and keep in mind that spellcasters resemble clerics (clerics, druids, some adepts, spellcasting classes on a higher-HD race, etc.) as often as they resemble wizards. Being the guy who picks on soft targets really sucks when you can't keep up with the soft targets and when not every fight has a soft target.

"Monks are spellcaster killers!" is misinformation that punishes people who don't know better.


Chewbacca wrote:

Bonjour Treantmonk,

Once again I thank you for all your guides and most of all : I like your style. I am not a fan of power gaming but optimization is a good trade-off. And you make an honest optimizer.
Nevertheless I have one request. Could you put these guides in Google Documents (as for ranger and Wiz i think) instead of SRD ?
This Damn Firewall from my company blocks me from reading your guide and to be completely honest I don't feel like going to see the IT Director to ask him to remove the blocking of SRD Site. ;o).
That would be absolutely great for one of my player who's playing a monk ;o). And for me too.

If you can do the same with all guides....

Merci TreantMonk !

Try HERE

Or copy and paste: http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AcNyxDTKvAmqZGRtZzhzdjZfNTB3YzJ0NzlkOA&am p;hl=en

into your navigation bar


Man in Black - First evaluation wrote:
It's about on par with a single-weapon, unhasted, not-optimized-for-damage rogue. (If the rogue TWFs or gets more attacks from haste/Boots of Speed it's no contest.) That's...kind of depressing.

No contest if the rogue TWF's (which they pretty much all do)? Yes, that would be depressing.

Man in Black - Second Evaluation wrote:
Even if you shift the numbers around, the monk is still doing about the same amount of damage as a TWF rogue if the monk pops a ki, and slightly better than a 1h rogue if not.

So now the damage is on par with a TWF rogue (who I assume is targeting a sneak attack applicable target) when he pops a Ki.

Nothing wrong with that.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Treantmonk wrote:
Man in Black - First evaluation wrote:
It's about on par with a single-weapon, unhasted, not-optimized-for-damage rogue. (If the rogue TWFs or gets more attacks from haste/Boots of Speed it's no contest.) That's...kind of depressing.

No contest if the rogue TWF's (which they pretty much all do)? Yes, that would be depressing.

Man in Black - Second Evaluation wrote:
Even if you shift the numbers around, the monk is still doing about the same amount of damage as a TWF rogue if the monk pops a ki, and slightly better than a 1h rogue if not.

So now the damage is on par with a TWF rogue (who I assume is targeting a sneak attack applicable target) when he pops a Ki.

Nothing wrong with that.

Nothing changed between the two. The damage is depressing if the monk doesn't pop a ki, and merely okay if he does. Needing to pop a ki AND needing to stand and full attack to do more than pitiful damage is more restrictive than setting up a flank, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm going to do another take on Melvin in the DPR thread and then go to bed.


A Man In Black wrote:
Treantmonk wrote:
Man in Black - First evaluation wrote:
It's about on par with a single-weapon, unhasted, not-optimized-for-damage rogue. (If the rogue TWFs or gets more attacks from haste/Boots of Speed it's no contest.) That's...kind of depressing.

No contest if the rogue TWF's (which they pretty much all do)? Yes, that would be depressing.

Man in Black - Second Evaluation wrote:
Even if you shift the numbers around, the monk is still doing about the same amount of damage as a TWF rogue if the monk pops a ki, and slightly better than a 1h rogue if not.

So now the damage is on par with a TWF rogue (who I assume is targeting a sneak attack applicable target) when he pops a Ki.

Nothing wrong with that.

Nothing changed between the two. The damage is depressing if the monk doesn't pop a ki, and merely okay if he does. Needing to pop a ki AND needing to stand and full attack to do more than pitiful damage is more restrictive than setting up a flank, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm going to do another take on Melvin in the DPR thread and then go to bed.

Is a non-Ki full attack any more depressing than a rogue who hasn't gotten the opportunity to flank or catch an enemy flatfooted? Nope. A monk can full attack for this damage all day, against creatures that are crit immune as well. This is getting back to fighters vs wizards though, where one class is massively effective while he has ammo or the conditions are right, and the other does less damage all the time.


A couple of things:

Quote:

Greater Magic Fang on two fists: This is huge - so get it if you can. It means you can use that Amulet of Mighty Fists (which doesn't need a +1 minimum enhancement) to use exclusively on other enchantments.

You mean greater magic fang on unarmed strike, right?

Quote:
Magic fang gives one natural weapon or unarmed strike of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls.

Unarmed strike in 3.X/PF refers to all parts of the body -- head, knees, fists, etc. Magic fang buffs either a single natural weapon *or* all forms of unarmed strike.

Also, you mention getting the ring of force shield. This isn't a good option most of the time -- because it causes you to lose your monk AC bonuses:

PRD wrote:
An iron band, this simple ring generates a shield-sized (and shield-shaped) wall of force that stays with the ring and can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield (+2 AC).
PRD wrote:

AC Bonus (Ex): When unarmored and unencumbered, the monk adds his Wisdom bonus (if any) to his AC and his CMD. In addition, a monk gains a +1 bonus to AC and CMD at 4th level. This bonus increases by 1 for every four monk levels thereafter, up to a maximum of +5 at 20th level.

These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses these bonuses when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armor, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load.

It doesn't matter if he's not really carrying a shield, he wields the ring's force shield as a shield -- thus he loses AC bonuses.

Other than those things, pretty good guide (:


Oh, about the 5-foot step thing. . .

Isn't a 5-foot step considered "no action" -- that means it isn't a full-round, standard, move, free, swift, or immediate action.

Acrobatics checks can only be made as part of an action. . .

PRD wrote:
Action: None. An Acrobatics check is made as part of another action or as a reaction to a situation.

You can make an acrobatics check as part of a full-round, standard, move, free, swift, or immediate action. But can you make an acrobatics check as part of "no action"?

Unless you can prove that "no action" is an action, you can't make an acrobatics check without an action to go along with it.

And no reasonable person would consider a 5-foot step "a reaction to a situation" -- that's for the slipping off a surface reaction and the avoiding falling damage reaction. The 5-foot step is additional movement you can do on your turn, but it isn't an action or reaction itself.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Anburaid wrote:
A monk can full attack for this [non-ki] damage all day, against creatures that are crit immune as well.

It doesn't matter.

Being able to attack for pitiful damage "all day" isn't a useful ability. The practical difference between doing 15 DPR and 25 DPR is essentially nil. Under both circumstances, you are completely failing to make a reasonable contribution to the fight, pose no threat to level-appropriate foes (meaning CR of party level -4 or higher), and should not risk getting involved in melee save desperate circumstances.

If you are doing less DPR than the druid's pet you need to stand in the corner until you figure out how to do better.

meabolex wrote:
It doesn't matter if he's not really carrying a shield, he wields the ring's force shield as a shield -- thus he loses AC bonuses.

There's a 150 post thread about this very dumb argument around here somewhere. The upshot is that nobody knows how it's supposed to work.

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