How do I optimize from this?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


2nd level Halfling Barbarian.

STR 13, DEX 18, CON 14, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 10 (25 point build, adjustments to STR, DEX and CHA factored in already)

HP 26, AC 21 (10+4+4+2+1), Fort: 5/7, Refl 6, Will 1. Move 30'

Feats:

ExWProf: Bastard Sword (can use a human scale longsword with no penalties, GM isn't allowing Monkey Grip)

Rage Power: Strength Surge

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The character fights sword and shield for now. Conventional wisdom says that taking ExWProf for anything other than a straight fighter is a dumb idea.

Background is that he was a halfling who grew up in an Orc tribe...and when you're a 3' tall teenager in an Orc tribe, you're either a sneaky, vicious SOB, or a corpse. The ExWProf is there because it let him use the swords that were actually available. I accept that I burned a feat to be able to do an extra point of damage (on average) per attack in combat. It was suboptimal, but it fit background. Most everyone else has made similar decisions.

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We'll probably hit 3rd level after the next two sessions. I'm trying to figure out what the next feat chain I should start on.

Right now, his combat role is that he's got a bucket of hit points (about 50% more than anyone else in the party) and is hard to hurt on top of that, because against 2 HD monsters, an AC of 21 is hard to hit...and he hits hard enough and often enough when raging to be too much damage to just ignore.

I meet the pre-reqs for damned near every 'combat' feat out there. It's mildly tempting to go down the garden path for Whirlwind Attack.

His notable gear is a masterwork chain shirt, a masterwork heavy shield, a warhorse that has half as many hit points as he does (!), a telescope, and a bullseye lantern with Everburning Flame cast on its wick.

I know what I want to do with Rage powers (Knockback, Vitality, then the DR boosting ones). I know what I intend to do with stat boostage (STR all the way).

Feat chains I'm considering:

1) Dodge > Mobility > Spring Attack > Combat Expertise > Whirlwind Attack
2) Combat Reflexes > Stand Still
3) Dodge > Shield Focus > Combat Expertise (AKA 'Pimp My AC')
4) Two Weapon Fighting > Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword > Double Slice

We are in a low magic campaign, one where magic items are roughly 5-8x the 'list price' due to scarcity. (The GM has ruled that magic items take 1 day per 150 GP of list price in time to create, rather than 1 day per 1000 GP), and the level requirements for the Craft Magic Item feats (other than Scribe Scroll) are all three caster levels higher than book. Craft Wondrous Item got split into two feats.

The party had a chance to buy a wand of Cure Light Wounds with 13 charges left on it for about 1500 GP, and promises to be extracted later. We declined and may regret it.

For the record, all of us agreed to these changes because we like a grittier fantasy feel, where magic items all have backstories. So optimize for a 'rare magic item' world.

Higher level challenges are also expected to be scaled back somewhat. This is all an attempt to extend the 'sweet spot' of d20/PF past level 12, which is where, in prior campaigns, it began to break down.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

It's too late to change anything? You're in really bad shape as-is. That feat is dead weight, 13 str is painful at melee, and you're a halfling. I know the last is for concept purposes and assume it can't be changed but it compounds all the other problems. Plus, low magic gear bones melee hard, starting in about three levels.

The next feat you need is Power Attack. This is non-negotiable if you want to be able to kill things.

If you want to go TWF, that's your next feat, followed by ITWF and Double Slice. Wield a bastard sword and a short sword (or whatever other light weapon tickles your fancy). It's not going to be super but it'll do. This suffers from the fact that you just can't afford one decent magic weapon, let alone two.

Otherwise, the level 5 feat is...um. Dodge, I guess? Weapon Focus? Sheesh, there's nothing worth taking. Get some filler for level 7 and get improved crit at level 9. Get Improved Crit at level 9 no matter what.

You can try intimidating. With 10 cha and small size you're bad at it, though, I will warn you.

Spring Attack is pretty poor for you, since you're better off charging anyway. Combat Expertise with a non-reach weapon is an utterly lost cause, and Stand Still is a completely awful trap feat that nobody should take. Whirlwind Attack is a loooooot of feats and much less cool than it looks on paper, and I would highly recommend avoiding it.

Knockback and Strength Surge are not winner rage powers. (Strength Surge is really situational and you're bad at maneuvers, and Knockback just gets you killed.) Winner rage powers include Clear Mind, Scent, and some high level stuff you can't take. Intimidating Glare is a winner if you want to go intimidate but -4 to intimidate against everything really sucks.

I really don't know what to tell you, man. You're playing a class that hits people and you've got the deck stacked against you in the hitting people department.


Not entirely disagreeing, but here's the logic behind Strength Surge and Knockback:

I won't get knockback until 4th level. At 4th level, STR will be 14. Should this campaign actually reach level 12 and still be viable, STR will be 16, with some minor stat boosting items probably getting it up to 18, or 24 with Improved Rage.

Anyway, back to 4th. If I'm calculating it right, for one knockback attempt per range, I'll get a CMB of:

10+4+4-1+4=21. Which seems respectable, given that most of the CMDs I'm likely to see are in the realm of 16-19 or so. (Remember - STR 18 when raging.)

It's situational, granted. In a low magic campaign, things shoved off of cliffs are less likely to fly, though...

While right now I'm pretty far ahead of the AC curve, I can see the writing on the wall unless a Mithral breastplate in my size should appear. AC will go up by a small amount (a larger amount if I take Combat Expertise).

One meta-game reason for the ExWProf is that it's letting me use a Medium Longsword. Which will be the likeliest form of magic sword on a treasure hoard, and it's going to be challenging to buy an enchanted sword made custom.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

AdAstraGames wrote:
It's situational, granted. In a low magic campaign, things shoved off of cliffs are less likely to fly, though...

It's so situational that it's not even worth bothering with. Once per rage you can blow your only attack for a chance to push people 10-15'? Do you spend a lot of time fighting mountain goats?

Also, remember that you're a halfling and thus completely screwed for no good reason when it comes to combat maneuvers. If it's Large or larger, this auto-fails.

Quote:

While right now I'm pretty far ahead of the AC curve, I can see the writing on the wall unless a Mithral breastplate in my size should appear. AC will go up by a small amount (a larger amount if I take Combat Expertise).

One meta-game reason for the ExWProf is that it's letting me use a Medium Longsword. Which will be the likeliest form of magic sword on a treasure hoard, and it's going to be challenging to buy an enchanted sword made custom.

If the GM is going to quintuple magic item costs AND not give you appropriate gear, then you're just boned. No amount of optimization will keep you on the CR curve.


You could have went with lower dexterity and higher strength for start and perhaps better wisdom for perception and will saves.

I'd also vote for simply taking the human sized longsword as a two hander (bastard sword is a martial weapon when wielded that way) and took weapon focus instead to make up for the lack of accuracy. Next on the road would be the power attack and perhaps you can try to focus on tumbling later to help you with flanking, you are probably going to move about a lot, so there are the vital strike and wind stance feat chains.

Don't forget that you can play on your racial strengths and arm yourself with throwing thingies. In that case the feats of the power attack tree would work too (rage also improves thrown weapons damage, so...)

Shield is not the way I'd go. It would be better to be able to have one hand free and able to throw things around while you are moving about.

Of the rage powers aside from those already recommended You may want to look at guarded stance (if you are concerned about AC) and powerful blow, that you can use multiple times if you do't spend all your rage at once and perhaps quick reflexes.

Aside from that when you are using an orc tribe for background you can also try different weapons, like axes, spears and perhaps scimitairs (can't help myself, but the attempt to use highest crit-range possible weapon for the greenskins in 3.5 MM was kinda meh), or even improvised things like clubs that grow around almost for free.


One thing I'm not lacking in right now (at least compared to others in the group) is accuracy. The Small size gives me a +1 to hit. Right now I've got 2+1+1=+4 in Melee, +7 for ranged, and +6 Melee when raging.

Our Greatsword fighter is at 1+4+1-1=5. (18 STR, BAB +1, MW Weapon) [He's got a level in Sorcerer]). And +2 in ranged. (He has Power Attack, Dodge, and Improved Initiative, his 1st level Sorcerer spells are True Strike and Feather Fall). He's running around in a breastplate with a DEX of 12, and Dodge.

Our archery Ranger is at 2+3+1+1-1=+6 (BAB, DEX 17, Point Blank Shot, MW Weapon, Deadly Aim) and his melee is +3. (2+1=3). He's running around with an AC of 16. (MW Studded leather+DEX)

Barb: +4 Melee (1d8+1), +7 Ranged (1d4+1), 21 AC
Fght: +5 Melee (2d6+9), +2 Ranged (1d8), 18 AC
Rngr: +3 Melee (1d8+1), +6 Ranged (1d8+3/+4), 16 AC

At 4th level (projected, assume STR bump, Power Attack and a MW sword for the Barbarian)

Barb: +6 Melee (1d8+6), +9 Ranged (1d4+2), 21 AC
Fght: +8 Melee (2d6+12), +5 Ranged, (1d8), 18 AC
Rngr: +5 Melee (1d8+1), +6/+6 Ranged (1d8+5/6), 17 AC

Now, this may simply be that we're making making the League Of Sub-Optimum Meatshields here, and are causing Man In Black to look longingly at the tequila to kill the pain that our feat choices are bringing him...but I don't seem to be falling too far behind.


And, being silly (and following my own poorly received optimization guide)

Assume Two Weapon Fighting, and a pair of masterwork longswords at 4th level.

I'd be hitting 4+2+1+1-4 = +4/+4, and +6/+6 when raging, for 1d8+2/1d8+4. I'm not sure the extra attack on a full attack action is worth +2 AC. I'm not sure it isn't, either.

My net attack bonus remains the same if I do TWF with a light and a medium weapon as with the post above with PA, and I'm effectively trading a flat +4 bonus to damage for 1d4+2. This seems about even to me - until you factor in losing the 2 AC for not having the shield.


When the DM is taking away the loot, that is the time to optimize to make up for it. If some guy is running around as a caster, and wearing armor I guess the DM will adjust for the group. If that is the case you guys can do what you want, however if its not the case, well I don't think I need to go down that road.


Neither of the fighter's 1st level spells have penalties for being cast in armor; I suspect he's only going to do a two level dip into Sorcerer. My gut hunch is that he's going to do Weapon Specialization for Greatsword and Vital Strike, then Improved VS, probably with Spring Attack.

Any time he can get a True Strike off and then charge on the following turn, he pretty much gets a guaranteed hit; so far doing 2d6+9 with no chance of missing has put a serious dent in a couple of 'boss fights'.

Should they ever exist in quantities and prices that aren't eye-searing, he can also use Arcane wands and scrolls.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Some suggestions:

1) Switch from using a shield (I'm assuming a heavy shield from the AC) to using a buckler. This will allow you to quickly switch between buckler+medium longsword and using the longsword two-handed (for extra damage when raging; you can easily afford the -1 penalty on attack rolls).

2) You don't have the feats to be effective at two-weapon fighting unless you started at 1st level (or multiclass as fighter or ranger), so you should look at Dodge (for AC), Extra Rage, Improved Initiative, and Power Attack (for damage) as some of your top options. Iron Will is almost a must have by the time you reach 9th level, as well.

3) If you want to build toward Whirlwind Attack, then the Rage Powers No Escape and Swift Foot are excellent complements to Mobility and Spring Attack. Fleet is a possible feat choice, as well, if/when you can spare the feat slot.


I would go with some levels of rogue. And get two-weapon fighting and shield related feats. The rogue levels can help you with that.


AdAstraGames wrote:

...

Now, this may simply be that we're making making the League Of Sub-Optimum Meatshields here, and are causing Man In Black to look longingly at the tequila to kill the pain that our feat choices are bringing him...but I don't seem to be falling too far behind.

Don't look for a way how not to suck, look for the way to excell ;)

(I'm not saying that your group sucks, just referring to original theme of this debate)

Seriously you SHOULD be more than their equal while raging, at least in melee.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Dragonchess Player wrote:
2) You don't have the feats to be effective at two-weapon fighting unless you started at 1st level (or multiclass as fighter or ranger), so you should look at Dodge (for AC), Extra Rage, Improved Initiative, and Power Attack (for damage) as some of your top options. Iron Will is almost a must have by the time you reach 9th level, as well.

TWFing is less feat-intensive (three core feats: TWF, ITWF, Double Slice; the rest is gravy or bad) than WW or Spring Attack and more useful unless you fight a LOOOOOOT of lowbie mooks. Plus, it comes online right now, instead of 5-7 levels from now. It's probably the only decent way to wring full damage out of that bastard sword feat because 1h/shield is way too feat intensive for a barb.

Also, please, god, don't take Renewed Vigor (if that's what you mean by Vitality). 1/fight worse-than-a-cure-spell for a standard action is absolutely horrible.


What I'm eyeballing is this:

3rd level: Power Attack, and switching over to a buckler. (AC down to 20)
4th level: Guarded Stance, +1 STR.

At 4th level, when NOT raging, I've got an AC of 20, hit on a +6 for 1d8+6, or hit on a +8 for 1d8+2. If I two-hand the bastard sword and PA, I'm hitting on a +5, with an AC of 19, for 1d8+9.

When raging, I'm almost certainly going to be two-handing the bastard sword. I'd be hitting on a +7 with an AC of 18 for 1d8+12.

Combat Reflexes is still tempting, largely because to date, the GM has hit us with swarms of Goblins.

The place where Renewed Vigor is appealing is around 10th level, where it cushions the "My rage will kill me" aspects of coming out of the rage.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

AdAstraGames wrote:
The place where Renewed Vigor is appealing is around 10th level, where it cushions the "My rage will kill me" aspects of coming out of the rage.

At level 10, you've got a 30-HP window, and enemies generally do more than 30 HP per round. It's not going to come up much.


Not to mention that you can use this thing only once per day... better to mother a potion to quaff at such opportunity. Perhaps you may want to take the moment of clarity rage power if the DM has problems with doing such things in rage (some of mine actually did).

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Zmar wrote:
Not to mention that you can use this thing only once per day... better to mother a potion to quaff at such opportunity. Perhaps you may want to take the moment of clarity rage power if the DM has problems with doing such things in rage (some of mine actually did).

My suggestion? Just ask your GM to allow you to make potions from the blood of your enemies.

Anyone who says you can't drink a bottle of the blood of your enemies in a fight does not deserve to be GM. :D


A Man In Black wrote:
The next feat you need is Power Attack. This is non-negotiable if you want to be able to kill things.

QFT.

Quote:
Winner rage powers include Clear Mind, Scent, and some high level stuff you can't take. Intimidating Glare is a winner if you want to go intimidate but -4 to intimidate against everything really sucks

If you multiclass - Animal Fury can be OK if you go Rogue + TWF as it's an additional attack per round that will get full sneak attack bonus.

Fearless Rage and Internal Fortitude are both OK ways to avoid status effects.

Moment of Clarity can be useful depending on your future progression - especially if spellcasting or UMD ever comes into the mix.

I like No Escape as well. Maybe better for a heavy-hitter though. However - if you go the TWF route - definitely worth considering as it's a way to keep in full attack range.

OFF TOPIC: MiB: I was remembering our discussion of the Fear spell - and I've got to say I like the idea of Fear + Terrifying Howl for synergy. Anyone who makes a save vs. the Fear saves again...


A Man In Black wrote:
Zmar wrote:
Not to mention that you can use this thing only once per day... better to mother a potion to quaff at such opportunity. Perhaps you may want to take the moment of clarity rage power if the DM has problems with doing such things in rage (some of mine actually did).

My suggestion? Just ask your GM to allow you to make potions from the blood of your enemies.

Anyone who says you can't drink a bottle of the blood of your enemies in a fight does not deserve to be GM. :D

Now that's a suggestion! You bleed, you replace lost blood from other sources. A botthe? Who's the Barbarian around? BITE AND DRINK!

And gm can shove the potions... oh, palnts and skellies aren't good for drinking, but veggies are supposedly good for your health and bones also need replacements... hmmmmmmmm

The Exchange

A Man In Black wrote:
If the GM is going to quintuple magic item costs AND not give you appropriate gear, then you're just boned. No amount of optimization will keep you on the CR curve.

This seems like a situation where the game isn't going to be following the CR curve very much. He already mentioned that the decision for a low-magic game was consensual; I take that to mean that the GM is sensible and trustworthy in the eyes of the players, and can be expected to make encounters that are a reasonable challenge given the conditions.

To the OP, I'd personally go with whatever path fits the concept best. In this situation I don't think optimization is really all that necessary. You've all agreed to play in a game that follows different conventions for the sake of fun, so just play for the sake of fun and take feats will make this character memorable.

Your concept is very similar to my one and only 4th edition character. He was a halfling who was abandoned as an infant and raised by a human farming family. He was never told that he wasn't their own child, so he assumed he was just a very small human. Long story short he had Napoleon Complex and was constantly boasting and doing stupid things to show how brave and strong he was.


Compared to the rest of your party your good at least until the fighter takes more levels of sorcerer and starts self buffing. But as for advancement beside some of the good suggestions above you could do mounted combat and eventually get a blink dog and just charge people constantly while raging or just ride-by-attack or over-run.

Besides that Im not sure what else would help since you have a high int so you could take the combat expertise stuff but your size and really works against you CMB wise.

Liberty's Edge

I'd go for a serious Rogue dip and 2-weapon fighting. Animal fury as rage power and finesse rogue as rogue talent, even if that means throwing away a feat(ditch that longsword and get 2 short swords!)

Heading for barbarian 4/ rogue 3 as a milestone with that selection could get you 5 attacks per round with dex bonus to attack. Go for sneak damage while flanking with the fighter. That would be 2d6 extra damage in each attack, 10d6 if all of them connect.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
A Man In Black wrote:
Dragonchess Player wrote:
2) You don't have the feats to be effective at two-weapon fighting unless you started at 1st level (or multiclass as fighter or ranger), so you should look at Dodge (for AC), Extra Rage, Improved Initiative, and Power Attack (for damage) as some of your top options. Iron Will is almost a must have by the time you reach 9th level, as well.
TWFing is less feat-intensive (three core feats: TWF, ITWF, Double Slice; the rest is gravy or bad) than WW or Spring Attack and more useful unless you fight a LOOOOOOT of lowbie mooks.

To be effective, Two-Weapon Fighting (except by a rogue with Sneak Attack) really needs to be paired with Double Slice, Improved Shield Bash, or even better both (IMO). It also requires the character to pretty much stand in one place (5 ft step only) so they can full-attack.

Spring Attack + Power Attack + two-handed weapon, on the other hand, allows powerful attacks and movement; it also prevents the opponent from full-attacking, unless they have enough reach or switch to a ranged attack. This works best with a high move speed, which is why I made the suggestion:

Dragonchess Player wrote:
3) If you want to build toward Whirlwind Attack, then the Rage Powers No Escape and Swift Foot are excellent complements to Mobility and Spring Attack.

I agree that Whirlwind Attack is not a great choice for a small character, since enlarge person or other spells that increase size don't improve reach (small and medium characters have the same reach); this limits the character to attacks against adjacent foes, unless using a reach weapon. Great Cleave provides a similar mechanic, but stops when you miss an attack roll and penalizes your AC; however, Great Cleave is a standard action, instead of a full-attack action.


This is a fun character (: I'll give you my optimization spiel first, as aMiB did. . .

The problem here is that your stats and race are working extremely hard against you. Halflings prioritize around Cha and Dex. If you're not working around those stats (Cha is effectively your dump stat), then you're significantly behind the power curve. Because you're focused on the bastard sword, you can't really make use of your Dex for melee attacks via Weapon Finesse.

And no, your current character isn't going to be a problem in terms of effectiveness in the current state of your game. What you've done is simply outclass the attack rolls of wimpy goblins with superior AC. Your DM may have lowered the CRs to compensate for the lower magic setting, which is fine. Because you're using light armor and it doesn't look like you're buffing Dex, that AC advantage will disappear over the next few levels unless CRs stay very low. Furthermore, since magic items are going to be scarce, the AC pain will be even more pronounced.

Quote:
1) Dodge > Mobility > Spring Attack > Combat Expertise > Whirlwind Attack

Keep in mind barbarians aren't feat sacks. Completing this chain will take you 9 more levels.

Quote:
2) Combat Reflexes > Stand Still

A possible option (given the high Dex), but you'd want to use a reach weapon. . . you could throw Lunge in there to make your bastard sword effectively a reach weapon, but again, that's quite a few levels off.

Quote:
3) Dodge > Shield Focus > Combat Expertise (AKA 'Pimp My AC')

If you expect to keep up your AC in any reasonable manner, you may be forced to go this route. Keep in mind barbarian rage works against this strategy by lowering your AC.

Quote:
4) Two Weapon Fighting > Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword > Double Slice

A possible option given how Dex-crazy TWF builds are. I'd take Improved TWF over Double Slice (that's level 7). WF isn't a good plan because it ignores your non-bastard sword off-hand. I'd go for something like Two Weapon Defense to keep your AC up with the shield gone -- since you often find yourself tanking.

There is a ranged potential for the halfling barbarian, but it primarily involves throwing weapons. The halfling sling-staff is an option, particularly before you get multiple iterative attacks and in the case where you need better range. But eventually Quick Draw + throwing axes will be your best bet. Even then, you'd need a sack of feats (Point Blank Shot + Precise Shot) to get this working -- which is painful if you aren't human and aren't focusing.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

meabolex wrote:
The problem here is that your stats and race are working extremely hard against you. Halflings prioritize around Cha and Dex. If you're not working around those stats (Cha is effectively your dump stat), then you're significantly behind the power curve. Because you're focused on the bastard sword, you can't really make use of your Dex for melee attacks via Weapon Finesse.

Int could be the dump stat if this character is going to grow up to be higher level. Intimancers are pretty fun in PF but you need a barb/fighter multiclass to make it happen (Intimidating Glare, Shattering Strike, and that one double-damage/con bleed feat) and it doesn't kick in until 11th level. :/

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