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Does the armor training ability granted by the fighter work with shields as well? Normally I would say no since it is not titled 'armor and shield training' but one of the guys I play with thought it would since both are included in equipment chart under armor? Thanks for the help.
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Staight away I would have to say no. Armor proficiencies and shield proficiencies are not the same, so armor taining should not be read as shield training (but there are cool shield feats). Plus, doubling the armor training bonuses for using armor and shield would overpower an already powerful ability and make sword and board the absolute must be for fighters.
Overpowering? Doesn't the armor training just decrease the armor check penalty and increase the dexterity modifiers? I could see if the beta version was used to gain a higher AC but shields don't have any dex restrictions anyways. The only benefit I see a reduced armor check penalty of 1 for a heavy shield (after masterwork reduces by 1 already).
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It seems to me that shields are considered armor. A shield does not have a "Shield check penalty." Shields have Armor check penalties. Armor and shields are grouped together in the books. Ultimate Combat has a Fighter Archetype that specializes in tower shield use, but features an improved version of Armor Training. I think that shields are armor, and that armor training applies to shields.
Does the armor training ability granted by the fighter work with shields as well? Normally I would say no since it is not titled 'armor and shield training' but one of the guys I play with thought it would since both are included in equipment chart under armor? Thanks for the help.
By Rules as Written, yes. However, the wording can lead to one nonsensical result, so I would apply a dab of interpretation.
Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing armor. Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), these bonuses increase by +1 each time, to a maximum –4 reduction of the armor check penalty and a +4 increase of the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.
In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor.
Armor Check Penalty: Any armor heavier than leather, as well as any shield, hurts a character's ability to use Dexterity- and Strength-based skills. An armor check penalty applies to all Dexterity- and Strength-based skill checks. A character's encumbrance may also incur an armor check penalty.
Shields: If a character is wearing armor and using a shield, both armor check penalties apply.
Since the penalty to skills from a shield is call an Armor Check Penalty, the Fighter's Armor Training can reduce that penalty. The Armor Training reduces the sum of the Armor Check Penalty from armor, the Armor Check Penalty from shields, and the Armor Check Penalty from encumbrance. The distinction between reducing the Armor Check Penalty from armor and the sum off all three Armor Check Penalties is hardly noticeable. In a few cases, it does matter; for example, an 11th-level fighter wearing a chain shirt (penalty -2) and using a light shield (penalty -1) would have a Armor Check Penalty of -3 reduced to 0 by his Armor Training.
The nonsensical part of the wording is that Armor Training applies only when the fighter is wearing armor. So if that 11th-level fighter took off his chain shirt but kept using the shield, his armor training would stop working and his Armor Check Penalty would be -1 instead of 0. I would houserule that that clause, "Whenever he is wearing armor," is fluff rather than a real condition. My guess is that the Pathfinder author who wrote down the rules for Armor Training had a momentary memory lapse and forgot that Armor Check Penalties could come from two other sources besides armor.
No.
Fighter class wrote:
Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing ARMOR. Whenever he is wearing ARMOR, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his ARMOR by 1.
It specifies ARMOR. Yes, shields give an armor check penalty, but the ability the fighter gets says specifically that it affects his ARMOR. Not ARMOR and/or SHIELD.
The point is, as much as Armor and Shields are both on the same page, they both have specific in-game meanings, and the ability only references the one.
It seems to me that shields are considered armor.It seems to me that shields are not considered armour. Shields grant a shield bonus to AC. Armour grants an armour bonus to AC. Armour requires "Armour proficiency" feats; shields require "Shield proficiency" feats.
The reason shields use "armour check penalty" rather than "shield check penalty" is that penalties (almost) always stack, so there isn't any confusion about it. [Bonuses to AC only stack if they are different types, with the explicit exception of Dodge.]
Exactly.
Does the armor training ability granted by the fighter work with shields as well? Normally I would say no since it is not titled 'armor and shield training' but one of the guys I play with thought it would since both are included in equipment chart under armor? Thanks for the help.
In our games we do allow armor training to work on shields as well. It is in the spirit of the ability and does not cause any undo balance issues at our table, especially considering that you can easily get shields with no Armor Pentalty with a minor expenditure of character wealth.
The Pure fighter concpet would support that shields would also be covered, and the tower shield will still wield an appreciable minus, even if made from Mithril on a high level Fighter.
No.
Fighter class wrote:Armor Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter learns to be more maneuverable while wearing ARMOR. Whenever he is wearing ARMOR, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his ARMOR by 1.
It specifies ARMOR. Yes, shields give an armor check penalty, but the ability the fighter gets says specifically that it affects his ARMOR. Not ARMOR and/or SHIELD.
The point is, as much as Armor and Shields are both on the same page, they both have specific in-game meanings, and the ability only references the one.
I have changed my position. A fighter's Armor Training applies only to armor.
I checked some similar phrasing in other rules, such as a Hellknight's Hellknight Armor ability and a Metal Oracle's Armor Mastery revelation, and it appears that the italicized "the" in the phrase, "Whenever he is wearing armor, he reduces the armor check penalty by 1 (to a minimum of 0) and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1." is used as a possessive referring back to the armor rather than as a definite article. My understanding of English grammar would require "its" instead of "the". I guess the odd use of "the" is a regional dialect in the Seattle area.
I also agree with Gilfalas that it would cause no problems to houserule that Armor Training applies to shields, too. Nevertheless, that would be a house rule.
Are there any fighter NPCs in the NPC Gallery that have armor training and shields? We could probably determine the RAI simply by reverse engineering the stats. EDIT: Turns out there are plenty (bandit lord, cavalry, sellsword, and viking). Anyone here willing to do the math? /edit
I personally, believe that it either...
1) Applies to armor only, or...
2) Is subtracted from the sum of the armor check penalty (as Mathmuse originally believed).
