Let's not forget the Oriental adventures feats and abilities. Falling Star Strike, Freezing the Lifeblood, etc..
I still feel kicking it in at 3rd would be ideal, due to everybody else who does melee using bigger and better weapons with more strength, however, level 6 is a decent spot to hit, granting a +2 bonus.
It works out well :)(I agree 1/2 monk level is a bit much given the number of attacks they tend to throw down when they get a full attack. I'm not afraid of it in my games, but I can see alot more people not using it if it were 1/2 rather than 1/3.)
One possibility would be to make it 1 plus 1/3 (rather like the 3.5 feat progression actually) rather than delay all the stuff (except the ability to use it on non-monk weapons, that's a good delay) you could have it all hit at level 1 and then simply scale.
Yeah, it still needs tweaking, and I was doing it in my previous post. :/ After thinking about it, I don't know how appropriate it is for a monk to suddenly get +4 to hit and damage with any weapon. It might make more sense for that to happen gradually, like a fighter's weapon mastery ability. So I scrapped it. Monks could also do with a few more ki points, so I added that and a saving throw and Stunning Fist boost in instead. 1 + 1/3 seems like a good idea, too, but then I'd want to start everything from 1st level, and I think Monks get enough to start out in the early levels.
Warrior's Insight As Monks gain experience, they become better able to exploit weak points in their opponent's defenses and improve their ability to avoid attacks. Monks can add an Insight bonus to a variety of attacks and skill checks equal to 1/3 their total monk level rounded down, to a maximum bonus equal to their Wisdom modifier. At every 3rd Monk level they are able to add this bonus to more skills and abilities.
- A 3rd level Monk can add this bonus to all Acrobatics and Escape Artist checks.
- A 6th level Monk can add this bonus to attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and monk special weapons only. He also gains additional ki pool points equivalent to this bonus.
- A 9th level Monk can add this bonus to his CMB. He now also treats opponents who are larger than the monk as one size category smaller when attempting a Combat Maneuver against them.
- A 12th level Monk can add this bonus to the DC to resist the Monk's Stunning Fist attacks. Also, Stunning Fist attacks can be delivered when attacking with monk special weapons.
- A 15th level Monk can add this bonus to his CMD. He now also treats opponents who are larger than the Monk as two size categories smaller when attempting a Combat Maneuver against them.
- An 18th level Monk can add this bonus to his saving throws.
(Edit: Maybe swap 15th and 18th level ability?)
hrmmm, i'm pretty sure you went over your wealth even before the misc magic stuff. lvl 11=82000gp. i count 89000 for the non misc stuff.
Items:
Monks robe 13K
Belt of Phys Ed +2 16K
Headband Wis +4 16K
Bracers of AC +4 16K
Ring of protect +2 8K
Amulet of Mighty Fists - Holy 20K
Potions of Enlarge Person, barkskin, heroism, fly, cure wounds, etc.That's easy to fix. Remove the Bracers of Armor +4, and buy Potions of Mage Armor. Dropping the Bracers will leave him 9K to spare, or 180 Potions.
The same applies to all monk builds presented in this thread. I don't understand why any monk would use Bracers instead of the good ol' Mage Armor. The potions are dirt cheap, and last for an hour - so there's plenty of time to quaff(*) one before the fight.
(*) Or even better, purchase Oils of Mage Armor, and rub them to your bare chest before a fight!
You don't always get to choose when to fight, and if the mage armor is not active at fight time, you have to take your first round applying a potion.
Some of us actually like to role play, not roll play. But whatever floats your boat man.
I have been summoned--- we are not munchkins
Monks should fight like ninjas use smoke sticks and blind fighting, flank with the rogue and then combat reflexes a trip in there. Play Lawful fight Chaotic.
Mr. Fishy grapples your plate mail wearing butt and makes you the rogues...Mr. Fishy is a Gentlefish and there are Ladies here.
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I'll explain this speficically for you: 1d4 + Str + some small number from enhancements is less than 2d6 + (Str x 1 1/2) + much bigger number from enhancements. The latter is a valid way to bypass DR and the former is not, because not only in latter case you simply have a better chance of having enough enhancements, but - be prepared for another shocking revelation - enemies attack you too! And - be sure read this part very carefully, as grasping it is essential - this means, that you statistically have sharply limited time to make them die, therefore damage output matters, and not only for being able to punch through DR with sheer damage.
In short, your position, if it can be called that, cannot stand the contact with basic math and logic.
I see what you're saying, but your wrong once again. It is a vaild way to bypass DR, and you will only use the weakest of means as your counter point. Clearly, you're trying to prove a case that has no basis. If we're going to compare the weakest monk possible, he should be compared to the weakest fighter possible then judged. Why not try building an optimized monk for chance, oh doubter of monks.:P You'll start to come around.
Also, Mr. Fighter doesn't tend to pick up a different weapon in combat as he tries to blast through DR, or calls on the aid of the Cleric or Wizard. The Monk does the same, as does the rouge, cleric, bard, you name it. There is always more than one way, if you can just use your brain. Not everything happens to be a slugfest at the lowest common denominator, unless you're trying to reenact a pokemon fight.
Also, thanks for the demeaning tone you direct specifically at me. I appreciate it when a person does this, it shows that they don't believe their own position as they're edging closer to ad hominem.
Because monk (Wiz + class bonus) < bonus from typically used armors. Witness the wonders of basic math. Rogues also have more opportunities to prioritize Dex without raping themselves.
I'm sorry, but again you're saying the Monk = a Fighter or = Rogue. This is simply not true. You're making assumptions, and not actually bothering to even play a monk. This is like in the Playtests, you actually have to play with something to see how it works.
"Buttmonkey", "load", "henchman" and "b!&@%" are not valid party roles. An extra explanation specifically for you again: as the only function of monk in combat is to hit things in melee, he should hit things in melee as hard or almost as hard as classes that are good at it. But he's actually much inferior to PF fighters. Who by themselves need extreme monofocus to remain barely adequate at medium levels.
Why should a monk do the same damage as a fighter? The reason "Because" isn't a good one, nor is it even a reason. You're simply refusing to see that they're not fighters. Throwing around a lot of off-collar remarks isn't going to get you very far either, since it doesn't seem you've even really looked at what they're supposed to do.
Role: Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, striking where it's least expected, and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most.
That I think sums it up pretty nicely. You're saying the monk class is a fighter, but clearly it is not. Monks aren't meant to be fighters. They do their own job, their own way and they excel in that job. If you want to play a fighter, just play a fighter. Do what you'd like in your own campaigns. What bother is it to me if you want to houserule the game beyond its intentions?
Monks are clearly intended to emulate Bruce Lee or Wire Fu. Those are not sneaking or harassment archetypes. It's superior discipline and semi-mystical mind-over-matter martial arts triumphing over brute force.
Monks are meant to be highly mobile, but their iconic class feature and primary method of dealing damage requires them to stand still.
Monks are meant to be the masters of hand to hand combat, but a fighter with an enchanted gauntlet will do it much better.
A classical monk archetype is the ascetic, needing nothing but his own highly trained body to unleash a beating. The D&D/PF monk needs a magical necklace to keep up. Admittedly, all D&D characters suffer from a similar problem, but it's particularly noticeable for the monk. Unarmed combat is supposed to be their unique niche, but it rapidly becomes obsolete.
If you don't want to convert a Swordsage, which can do any concept you would ever want to play a monk for...
* Give them a full BAB. They effectively get it to so many things, there's no reason to restrict it.
* Make flurry of blows more mobility friendly
* Wisdom to attacks, damage, CMB, and more
* Make them the masters of special maneuvers like tripping and grappling. How about a high level ability 'Size Matters Not' that lets them negate enemy size bonuses for such purposes?
* Make the DC on Stunning Blow scale better.
I am all in favor of making the monk better, as I am of making the Barbarian better too. But so far all I have seem are ways to make them fighters or DBZ characters, none of them are cool or keeps with the concept.
I just think they should gain a tiny little bit more feats, and a tiny little more magic itens, and hell, maybe a monk could scale Ability Scores better than other classes too. That would do the trick nicely.
Believe me, in a high point campaign, the monk tends to be the AC master, sure he has to spend a little bit more money on it, but who doesn't?
i'm in the beginning stages of trying to do a guide to monks similar in style to treatmonk's guides, and let me tell you, as far as i've seen so far, going for dex is a losing proposition for monks. wisdom ups your armor class even when your surprised, your ki pool, and your stunning fist dc. your build here would be far better off ditching dex totally and putting all points into wis.Str...Str...Str.
Make sure your guide says "The Monk must consider how he is going to be effective offensively in every decision they make." Then ensure that the suggestions in the guide follow this advice too.
Str > Wis > Con > Dex > Int > Cha
Potentially the Con and Dex are interchangeable - but definitely not the Str and Wis!
Also working on a Monk guide. It will be interesting to compare our guides angryscrub - see how many conclusions we share, how many we discover different solutions...
Treantmonk - "Also working on a Monk guide."
I look forward to it. A monk was the first character I played when I first went from 1e AD&D to 3.5. It really fell behind compared to the other characters. Looking over the Pathfinder version, I think the class has some great options, and can't wait to test one as a player.
I am all in favor of making the monk better, as I am of making the Barbarian better too. But so far all I have seem are ways to make them fighters or DBZ characters, none of them are cool or keeps with the concept.
I just think they should gain a tiny little bit more feats, and a tiny little more magic itens, and hell, maybe a monk could scale Ability Scores better than other classes too. That would do the trick nicely.
Believe me, in a high point campaign, the monk tends to be the AC master, sure he has to spend a little bit more money on it, but who doesn't?
I think the Barbarian, just needs better powers. He might need a defined role also. I don't think he is intended to be the heavy hitter anymore, but if he is then the powers need to go in that direction.
Would this be crazy?
- Change High Jump to: At 5th level, a monk adds his level to all Acrobatics checks.
- CMB = CMD = 10 + BAB + Str Mod + Dex Mod + Wis Mod + Size Mod + Misc Mod
- Add Wisdom mod to +Attack bonus
- Ki Strike: Change from magic at 5th lvl, lawful at 10th lvl, adamantine at 16th lvl to damage reduction penetration. The monks unarmed damage ignores damage reduction equal to his BAB (15 at lvl 20, Monk lvls only).
- Bonus Feats: a: Change these feats (Improved Grapple, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip) to these (Greater Grapple, Greater Bull Rush, Greater Disarm, Greater Feint, Greater Trip).
b: Add these to the monk's bonus feat list at lv 10: Blinding Critical, Deafening Critical, Staggering Critical, Tiring Critical. - Equipment: Add in Handwraps as monk weapons and allow them to be enchantable as other weapons.
It makes the monk into the character I envision. A highly mobile combatant that is king of unarmed fighting including combat maneuvers and status effects.
Would this be crazy?
1) Change High Jump to: At 5th level, a monk adds his level to all Acrobatics checks.
2) CMB = CMD = 10 + BAB + Str Mod + Dex Mod + Wis Mod + Size Mod + Misc Mod
3) Add Wisdom mod to +Attack bonus
4) Ki Strike: Change from magic at 5th lvl, lawful at 10th lvl, adamantine at 16th lvl to damage reduction penetration. The monks unarmed damage ignores damage reduction equal to his BAB (15 at lvl 20, Monk lvls only).
5) Bonus Feats: a: Change these feats (Improved Grapple, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Feint, Improved Trip) to these (Greater Grapple, Greater Bull Rush, Greater Disarm, Greater Feint, Greater Trip).
b: Add these to the monk's bonus feat list at lv 10: Blinding Critical, Deafening Critical, Staggering Critical, Tiring Critical.6) Equipment: Add in Handwraps as monk weapons and allow them to be enchantable as other weapons.[/list]
It makes the monk into the character I envision. A highly mobile combatant that is king of unarmed fighting including combat maneuvers and status effects.
1) Good and not that much a game-breaker.
2) You'd add both Dex and Wis to CMB? Since those two are importants scores for a monk, that gives monks something like a +4 (or more) bonus to CMB compared to what it is now. And let's not forget that they already have Manoeuver Training. A bit much, methink.
3) As it has been written before, I'd use Wis instead of Str, not on top of it. For attacks and CMB, too. Intuitive strikes and such...
4) A bit much, again. DR is important, but can be overcome by the proper weapon ability. The other meleers needs a special weapon to do so, why would the monk be exempt from this requirement?
5) Again, a bit much. Replacing Improved Manoeuvers with Greater Manoeuvers? They should be able to get these feats, but not for free. As discussed in another thread: they'd need to get the "Improved" manoeuver before the "Greater" one, but could wave the other requirements. Another problem with this is that "Greater" manoeuvers don't give the character the ability to evade the AoO they incur from using the manoeuver.
6) This one I totally agree with. Can be taken into account to solve DR issues, too.
The preceding points reflect only my views on the monk in the Pathfinder RPG, for the impressive amount of... two cents ;-)
dang! now the pressure is on. any sort of ETA on yours? i suspect it'll be done before mine. i won't read it 'til mine is finished though.Also working on a Monk guide. It will be interesting to compare our guides angryscrub - see how many conclusions we share, how many we discover different solutions...
Within the next week I would think. Depends how much time I devote to it on the weekend - which depends really how much my wife and daughter sleep in Sat and Sun (I'm an early riser).
I think having more than one guide is a positive though - it gives players more than one perspective.
I must admit, nothing motivates me more to write a guide than threads popping up which suggest that classes suck or need fixing. I always read those sentences and translate, "What this class needs is some optimizing"
If there was one thing that I would change about monks it would be to give them more of a reason to advance wisdom as their major stat. As it is now, they either advance strength to hit/damage, advance dexterity along with agile maneuvers to optimize combat maneuvers, or advance wisdom to increase their ki pool and raise their stunning fist DC. That's 3 different dependencies, or choices of what stat to make your focus. Which ever one you choose, the others will suffer.
So my suggestion is to change maneuver training to not only let the monk use his level in place of BAB, but use his Wisdom bonus in place of the Strength bonus. Mechanically that allows him to concentrate on one attribute for the purposes of special powers and combat maneuvers. Thematically, Wisdom bonus is an expression of the monks "skill" or his esoteric understanding of his combat training.
While at high levels, his damage will not be as strong as a fighters ( being more on par with a rogue), his stunning fist/quivering palm will have a DC appropriate to the CR. His AC/CMD will be as high as if he had chosen Dexterity as his attribute focus. He will have more Ki points to spend. And he will be as effective as most people think he should be at combat maneuvers, which is to say about as good as a fighter who can focus on strength.
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As I read all these, I can't help but see that the changes being put out will make the monks the same a MMORPG monks, like Everquest 2. Nowhere in PNP RPGs was it mandated that monks must outdamage fighters or be able to stand toe to toe with big baddies like an armored fighter.
That being said, from what I have seen in the games I GM, their major weak point is AC. The wisdom bonus just seems to simulate mundane light and medium armor without check penalties. Getting a +1 AC bonus every 3 levels or every 2 levels would keep them more on par.
Now that I think about it, one post mentioned DR being a problem.
At 4th level, ki strike allows his unarmed attacks to be treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Ki strike improves with the character's monk level. At 10th level, his unarmed attacks are also treated as lawful weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. At 16th level, his unarmed attacks are treated as adamantine weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and bypassing hardness. modifier.
They do have some ways to bypass, but it is very limited. The adamantine is quite useful for sundering. Maybe having a way to use ki points to alter what DR they can bypass
One thing I would like to see is a combat maneuver feat tree that is monk only, similar to the way fighters get their own feat trees. That would give the monks a niche of disabling and disrupting foes, which would work out well I think.
They do have some ways to bypass, but it is very limited. The adamantine is quite useful for sundering. Maybe having a way to use ki points to alter what DR they can bypass
One thing I would like to see is a combat maneuver feat tree that is monk only, similar to the way fighters get their own feat trees. That would give the monks a niche of disabling and disrupting foes, which would work out well I think.
I posted this earlier in the thread but thought is warranted repeating.
A feat similar to this would help resolve the monk/DR issue.
Shattering Palm [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Must have Ki pool, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: As a swift action you may spend 1 ki point to add your Wisdom Modifier, in addition to your Strength Modifier, on damage rolls when making unarmed strikes against an opponent whose damage reduction is effective against your unarmed strikes for 1 round. The benefit of this feat does not apply against targets whose damage reduction do not apply to your attacks.
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I also think trying to get them to stack up against a fighter is not the right comparison. I'll actually be curious to see if anyone can make a build that can justify taking it over a combat-oriented Druid, who is also the "bare (or bear) handed speed master good at combat manuevers)". Heck, we'll even ignore the fact the Druid can cast spells; just he and his companion buddy, fisticuffing away.
I see what you're saying, but your wrong once again. It is a vaild way to bypass DR, and you will only use the weakest of means as your counter point.
The difference between my example and the strongest example possible by the rules (that still uses monk's class features) is about 1 point of damage
Clearly, you're trying to prove a case that has no basis. If we're going to compare the weakest monk possible, he should be compared to the weakest fighter possible then judged.
No one compares about comparison involving strawmen that exist solely in your imagination.
Why not try building an optimized monk for chance, oh doubter of monks.:P You'll start to come around.
I've tried. Except, unlike certain people in this thread, I can see when the resulting build horribly sucks, either period, or compared to other classes at similar level of optimizational effort, thanks, again, to the wonder of basic math, logic, and so on.
Also, Mr. Fighter doesn't tend to pick up a different weapon in combat as he tries to blast through DR, or calls on the aid of the Cleric or Wizard. The Monk does the same, as does the rouge, cleric, bard, you name it. There is always more than one way, if you can just use your brain.
Your reading comprehension clearly fails you, because Monk, by the rules, cannot do the same. Unarmed strike is not nearly as easily enchanted, nor it has necessary damage potential. And monk weapons suck.
Not everything happens to be a slugfest at the lowest common denominator, unless you're trying to reenact a pokemon fight.
You cannot possibly hope to reenact pokemon fights in PF. PF lacks tactical complexity and power interactions for that.
Also, thanks for the demeaning tone you direct specifically at me. I appreciate it when a person does this, it shows that they don't believe their own position as they're edging closer to ad hominem.
And I would appreciate if you had learned what ad hominem is. Hint: "your arguments fail, therefore you fail at things involved of making your arguments" isn't one. Also, it seems you still failed to read my explanations even after I made it as clear as possible.
"Role: Monks excel at overcoming even the most daunting perils, striking where it's least expected, and taking advantage of enemy vulnerabilities. Fleet of foot and skilled in combat, monks can navigate any battlefield with ease, aiding allies wherever they are needed most."
That I think sums it up pretty nicely.
This sums up nothing, because this says nothing meaningful. It is mostly a bunch of words of which only "fleet of foot" even have any relation at all to the actual monk abilities and flow of combat.
Otherwise, see my previous posts, I have nothing else to add.
I also think trying to get them to stack up against a fighter is not the right comparison. I'll actually be curious to see if anyone can make a build that can justify taking it over a combat-oriented Druid, who is also the "bare (or bear) handed speed master good at combat manuevers)". Heck, we'll even ignore the fact the Druid can cast spells; just he and his companion buddy, fisticuffing away.
My money is on the druid and his pet. Pounce for the win, and the grapple. That is before the druid is buffed. I have not ran any numbers however, and I am basing my opinion on two games. One I am playing in, and the other I am DM'ing.
I might be late to the party, but personally for my homebrew I gave monks freedom of movement and dimmension door as additional uses of their ki pool (in the setting monks are parkour free style runner like trainers). Gave them a better speed progression and incorporated ¨improved natural attack¨
I would like to see a weapon that deals a die 8 that they could use with flurry, and do decent damage. To be used to bypass DR. Like a polearm. I would also like to see a free feat like Shorten Haft. I love spinning polearms.
I might be late to the party, but personally for my homebrew I gave monks freedom of movement and dimmension door as additional uses of their ki pool (in the setting monks are parkour free style runner like trainers). Gave them a better speed progression and incorporated ¨improved natural attack¨I would like to see a weapon that deals a die 8 that they could use with flurry, and do decent damage. To be used to bypass DR. Like a polearm. I would also like to see a free feat like Shorten Haft. I love spinning polearms.
Check the pathfinder campaign setting for the temple sword. 1d8 damage, monk-weapon-for-flurry, +2 to trips/disarms, looks like THIS
I removed a needlessly antagonistic post.
I get the impression despite the volume of special abilities the PF Monk gets it still somehow lags behind the other classes in use, up until high treasure levels where you can get a pretty crazy AC. What would need to change to get them to contribute better to a party?
There is one simple way to fix monks that I'm surprised Paizo didn't do (then again, they completely left all the Prestige Classes but the Assassin and Dragon Disciple to languish) - let Monks add their unarmed damage to Monk weapons or otherwise replace Monk weapon damage with Monk unarmed damage progression. I can punch reallly, realllly hard but here, let me poke you with a stick instead. Plus all the monk weapons are the WEAKEST weapons in the game aside from the quarter staff. Who the hell uses Monk weapons?
There is one simple way to fix monks that I'm surprised Paizo didn't do (then again, they completely left all the Prestige Classes but the Assassin and Dragon Disciple to languish) - let Monks add their unarmed damage to Monk weapons or otherwise replace Monk weapon damage with Monk unarmed damage progression. I can punch reallly, realllly hard but here, let me poke you with a stick instead. Plus all the monk weapons are the WEAKEST weapons in the game aside from the quarter staff. Who the hell uses Monk weapons?
While I agree to your post in general, I'll answer the question at the end. With most monk weapons, you have a slight numerical advantage when performing Combat Manoeuvers, be it a trip (kama), disarm (nunchaku), or even sunder (sai) - I just reviewed the PRD for these options, and I didn't find the +4 disarm Sais were good for... has it been removed?
Even when the monk has his hands full with two of these weapons, he can still inflict full unarmed damage with his feet.