Additional rogue talents (PEACH)

[angryscrub]

i'm new to pathfinder, just started checking it out a few weeks ago, and i really like what i see so far. however, i felt there could be a few more rogue talents to help a scout type build. i think these are in line with the existing ones, but if anybody sees anything game breaking let me know.

Tree hugger - move up to normal speed without penalty when making survival checks for anything other than tracking. Must have at least 1 rank in survival and knowledge nature.

Monkey hands - move up to half speed without penalty when climbing. Retain dexterity bonus to AC while climbing.

Part fish - move up to half speed as a move action while swimming. Move up to your speed as a full round action. Hold your breath twice as long as normal (4 times constitution score).

Idiom master - you speak any language you know as if it were your native tongue, and you may choose to sound like you are from any region or place with a distinctive dialect. Additionally, when someone else is speaking a language you know, you know where they're from based on their accent. You gain a +4 on disguise checks that require speaking and a +2 on diplomacy checks when speaking the NPC's native tongue. Requires at least 1 rank in linguistics and knowledge geography. Must also have 1 rank in knowledge planes to use this ability with languages of outsiders.

Smooth talker - diplomacy checks to gather information take you half as long as normal. Diplomacy checks to influence attitude last twice as long as normal.

Trick rider - you may use an acrobatics check instead of a ride check for mounted tasks. Requires at least 1 rank in ride and handle animal.

Follow your gut - sense motive checks to get a hunch or detect enchantment only take a round rather than a minute. After a minute you receive a second check if the first failed.

Contortionist - you can escape restraints or squeeze through a tight space in a round instead of a minute. Escaping from a net or an animate rope, command plants, control plants, or entangle spell is a move action for you. Escaping from a grapple or pin is also a move action. You must have at least 5 ranks in escape artist to take this.

Fence in training - if you fail an appraise check by five or more you never get a wildly inaccurate result, you instead realize you just don't know. Appraise checks are move actions. If you activate a magic item with UMD or cast detect magic you may make an appraise check at the same DC as a spellcraft check to identify exact properties. This requires at least one rank in appraise, UMD, and spellcraft.

Good enough for government work - you do not take a penalty to skill checks on any skill you have ranks in when using improvised tools.

[Mylon]

I like the ideas. I think the rogue talent and barbarian rage power lists are pretty short. Follow your gut might be pretty powerful, but I guess that all depends.

[SlimGauge]

A number of these are VERY similar to movement skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel (but that's not a bad thing).

For example, your Monkey Hands is like a combination of parts of "Speedy Ascent" and "Up the Hill" skill tricks with the v3.5 feat "Defensive Climber" from Dragon 343 p32. Defensive Climber required a penalty to your climb check to retain your dex bonus when climbing. This makes me think that your version might be a touch overpowered. I'd suggest remaking your version as allowing the climber to take -5 to his climb check to move at half speed instead of quarter speed. By taking a -5 to your climb check, you may retain your dex bonus when climbing. These may be combined; for a -10 to your climb check you may retain your dex mod when climbing AND move at half speed.

Part Fish is like an improved skill trick "Quick Swimmer" or the feat "Improved Swimming" from Complete Adventurer, p110., with the extra-long breath-holding tacked on. As such it might be just a touch much. I'd suggest replacing the extra breath-holding with the same +4 to certain checks that the Endurance Feat grants, but only when applied to swimming or holding one's breath.

So, in general, look for existing feats/tricks similar to what you want to do, and compare. It may be as simple as adding the feat you found to a list that the rogue can pick from when he gets a trick.

[angryscrub]

SlimGauge wrote:

A number of these are VERY similar to movement skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel (but that's not a bad thing).

For example, your Monkey Hands is like a combination of parts of "Speedy Ascent" and "Up the Hill" skill tricks with the v3.5 feat "Defensive Climber" from Dragon 343 p32. Defensive Climber required a penalty to your climb check to retain your dex bonus when climbing. This makes me think that your version might be a touch overpowered. I'd suggest remaking your version as allowing the climber to take -5 to his climb check to move at half speed instead of quarter speed. By taking a -5 to your climb check, you may retain your dex bonus when climbing. These may be combined; for a -10 to your climb check you may retain your dex mod when climbing AND move at half speed.

hmmm, if i remember correctly, skill tricks were never meant to be as powerful as feats. much more limited use and less powerful. i get the distinct impression that rogue talents were meant to be basically rogue only feats, especially since some of them are just another way of getting a feat.

example:

pfsrd wrote:

Ledge Walker (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to move along narrow surfaces at full speed using the Acrobatics skill without penalty. In addition, a rogue with this talent is not flat-footed when using Acrobatics to move along narrow surfaces.

what am i missing that this isn't exactly the same power level as monkey hands?

SlimGauge wrote:

Part Fish is like an improved skill trick "Quick Swimmer" or the feat "Improved Swimming" from Complete Adventurer, p110., with the extra-long breath-holding tacked on. As such it might be just a touch much. I'd suggest replacing the extra breath-holding with the same +4 to certain checks that the Endurance Feat grants, but only when applied to swimming or holding one's breath.

well, i admit i did wonder about this one, only because there is no mechanism in the skill description for swimming faster at all. the holding breath thing though, i hate the random aspect because good swimmers usually can hold their breath much longer than normal, and also have a very good idea of how long that is. however, i didn't really think the power level here was particularly high. is there something in particular you're thinking of that makes this overpowered, or is it just the fact that i doubled the duration of breath holding?

SlimGauge wrote:

So, in general, look for existing feats/tricks similar to what you want to do, and compare. It may be as simple as adding the feat you found to a list that the rogue can pick from when he gets a trick.

well, like i said, i think skill tricks might be too weak of a thing to compare to. weapon finesse, weapon focus, any combat feat, are all rogue talents available a second level. the other nonsneak attack ones are all pretty much aimed around making the rogue faster at what he does.

Mylon wrote:

I like the ideas. I think the rogue talent and barbarian rage power lists are pretty short. Follow your gut might be pretty powerful, but I guess that all depends.

did you have some specific circumstance in mind where that would be powerful? i was trying to think of how someone might abuse it, but i couldn't come up with much of anything.

[SlimGauge]

angryscrub wrote:

hmmm, if i remember correctly, skill tricks were never meant to be as powerful as feats. much more limited use and less powerful. i get the distinct impression that rogue talents were meant to be basically rogue only feats, especially since some of them are just another way of getting a feat..

True. But Rogue Tricks aren't limited to once an encounter and most of yours are the equivalent of an improved version of the trick or two tricks together.

angryscrub wrote:

example:

pfsrd wrote:

Ledge Walker (Ex): This ability allows a rogue to move along narrow surfaces at full speed using the Acrobatics skill without penalty. In addition, a rogue with this talent is not flat-footed when using Acrobatics to move along narrow surfaces.

what am i missing that this isn't exactly the same power level as monkey hands?

I was comparing not to the pair of skill tricks, but to the Dragon Magazine feat "Defensive Climber". You're giving the same benefit PLUS the increased speed WITHOUT increasing the difficulty. Climbing is much more common than balancing, IMHO. Perhaps the Dragon Mag feat is underpowered. I'd still suggest considering the voluntary increase in the Climb DC, it lets the PC decide how much risk/reward to take.

angryscrub wrote:

SlimGauge wrote:

... feat "Improved Swimming" from Complete Adventurer, p110., with the extra-long breath-holding tacked on.

well, i admit i did wonder about this one, only because there is no mechanism in the skill description for swimming faster at all. the holding...

Again, I'm comparing against not the skill trick, but an existing feat, "Improved Swimming". You're giving everything that feat gives, PLUS the breathholding. Perhaps "Improved Swimming" is too weak a feat. Swimming feats are hard to judge, they depend so much on the campaign. In a seagoing pirates campaign they're quite valuable, in a desert sands campaign, less so. I will say that a simple doubling has the advantage that is is simple. I was trying to reuse existing feat mechanics (Endurance) in my counter-suggestion rather than come up with something from whole cloth.

I actually like the fact that the PC doesn't know exactly how much longer they can hold the breath, it's much more cinematic, but that might be just me.