My players and I were toying around with the Summoner, one of my players started toying around with the idea of a trip specialized Eidolon and after some min-maxing he created this monstrosity. It has been play tested under diffrent conditions 5 times with the same result each time.
Feel free to look it over and correct if you find any mistakes in the build.
Base creature
Level 20 Summoner's Eidolon
Huge Bipedal Eidolon
HD: 17d10+85 (187 hp)
Speed: 30ft
Unbuffed stats
Str 52 Dex 16 Con 21
Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 11
Fort: 15 Reflex: 8 Will: 10 Bab: +17 CMB:38 (trip: 48) CMD: 54
Ac: 42 Tch: 12 Ff: 37
+5 keen, frost, shock, Huge Guisarme +42/+37/+32/+27 (19-20x3 2d8+32+1d6 frost +1d6 electricity)
Evolutions: Ability Increase (Ex):4xstr(8), 3xint(6), Improved Natural Armor (Ex): x4(4), Gills (Ex)(1), Large (Ex)(3), Huge (Ex)(4)
Feats: level 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency Guisarme, level 2: Weapon focus Guisarme level 5: Improved Initiative level 7: Power Attack level 10: Dodge level 12: Improved Critical Guisarme level 15: Combat Expertise level 17: Improved Trip level 20: Greater Trip
Now he decide to buff his pet a little and go kill the Tarrasque.
Buffs: Enlarge, Greater heroism, mage armor, haste, shield, displacement,
Equipment: Ring of regeneration, Ring of physical perfection +6, Amulet of Natural Armor +5, Manual of gainful exercise +4, Manual of bodily health +1, Tome of clear thought +2
Buffed stats:
Gargantuan Bipedal Eidolon
HD: 17d10+153 (255 hp)
Speed: 60ft
Str 64 Dex 22 Con 28
Int 13 Wis 10 Cha 11
Fort: 22 Reflex: 14 Will:14 Bab: +17 CMB:52 (trip: 62) CMD: 60
Ac: 56 Tch: 13 Ff: 50
+5 keen, frost, shock, Gargantuan Guisarme (+52) +52/+47/+42/+37 (19-20x3 4d6+49+1d6 frost +1d6 electricity)
Evolutions: Ability Increase (Ex):4xstr(8), 2xint(4),Flight (Ex)(2), Improved Natural Armor (Ex): x4(4), Gills (Ex)(1), Large (Ex)(3), Huge (Ex)(4)
Feats: level 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency Guisarme, level 2: Weapon focus Guisarme level 5: Improved Initiative level 7: Power Attack level 10: Dodge level 12: Improved Critical Guisarme level 15: Combat Expertise level 17: Improved Trip level 20: Greater Trip
If you look at the trip CMB you can see that this Eidolon only needs a roll of 4 to trip the Tarrasque with reach on the Guisame it is possible to be outside melee range while the Tarrasque is prone, if the Tarrasque tries to get up the Eidolon can use the attack of opportunity to trip it again. Even with the Tarrasque’s tail attack it can only hit on a natural 20 and in return the Eidolon can inflict 30d6+245 (-75) damage on the Tarrasque each round. Even if you assume the damage rolls go bad and you miss some attacks, it will still only take the Eidolon 4 rounds to bash the Tarrasque into unconsciousness. After that it will be possible to inflict even more damage and finally drag the Tarrasque into a body of water large enough for it to drown in.
We assume that all buffs are cast with the Extend spell meta magic feat and that the summoner hides inside the Eidolon during the initial combat.
Also notice that the Tome of clear thought +2 allows us to get the flight evolution.
Gold spend on Eidolon equipment:
Ring of Regeneration 90,000 gp
Ring of physical perfection +6 144,000 gp
Manual of gainful exercise +4 110,000 gp
Manual of bodily health +1 27,500 gp
Tome of clear thought +2 55,000 gp
Guisame of Tarrasque owning 128,000 gp
Total 554500 gp
Equipment is obtainable by a level 19 character according to the PFRPG
They call their lovely creation Bob :(
The size increases do not increase reach, as written. Thus, the maximum reach for your Eidolon is 20 feet. It can never get out of the Tarrasque's range. Also note that drowning does not kill the Tarrasque.
The size increases do not increase reach, as written. Thus, the maximum reach for your Eidolon is 20 feet. It can never get out of the Tarrasque's range. Also note that drowning does not kill the Tarrasque.
We also just realized that the reach were not working, even then the tarrasque needs a natural 20 to hit with any of its attacks and the 4 rounds to take it out still counts.
The point about the water is that it will negate the Tarrasque's regeneration (read the regeneration rules, the Tarrasque does not pr. the rules have any different ruling).
Thanks for the response. (Please save me from my players,now they want to kill everything with their "pet" monster.)
I believe that the point of this, by the way, is to show that an ultimately buffed Eidolon, focused on killing anything it gets close to, is dangerously possible.
The point about the water is that it will negate the Tarrasque's regeneration (read the regeneration rules, the Tarrasque does not pr. the rules have any different ruling).
No, it won't. Pathfinder regeneration prevents death as long as the creature did not take regen-penetrating damage in the previous round. Since nothing can penetrate the Tarrasque's regen, it cannot be killed in any way, including through drowning.
That said, the Tarrasque could have easily just grappled and swallowed whole the Eidolon.
Also, you're using custom items that a sane GM would never allow (ring of +6 all physical stats).
Also, how does the tome of clear thought let you take an extra evolution?
My players and I were toying around with the Summoner, one of my players started toying around with the idea of a trip specialized Eidolon and after some min-maxing he created this monstrosity. It has been play tested under diffrent conditions 5 times with the same result each time.
Feel free to look it over and correct if you find any mistakes in the build.
OK
Now he decide to buff his pet a little and go kill the Tarrasque.
Buffs: Enlarge, Greater heroism, mage armor, haste, shield, displacement,
Equipment: Ring of regeneration, Ring of physical perfection +6, Amulet of Natural Armor +5, Manual of gainful exercise +4, Manual of bodily health +1, Tome of clear thought +2
Enlarge Person doesn't affect the eidolon. It's an outsider. Also, I'm unsure about the use of manuals. As a DM, I'd personally disallow their use.
If you look at the trip CMB you can see that this Eidolon only needs a roll of 4 to trip the Tarrasque with reach on the Guisame it is possible to be outside melee range while the Tarrasque is prone, if the Tarrasque tries to get up the Eidolon can use the attack of opportunity to trip it again.
Need to roll higher than that, since even if the manuals are allowed, he isn't gargantuan anymore, and he is definitely within reach of the tarrasque. And please note that the AoO occurs just before the event that triggers it. Since the tarrasque is already prone, it can't be tripped on an AoO triggered by it's attempt to stand up.
You're also scry-and-frying, which is well known as an imbalanced tactic. You're giving your Eidolon every advantage in the book and saying "OMG IMBA!!!". Well, duh, it's not a fair fight in the first place.
The point about the water is that it will negate the Tarrasque's regeneration (read the regeneration rules, the Tarrasque does not pr. the rules have any different ruling).No, it won't. Pathfinder regeneration prevents death as long as the creature did not take regen-penetrating damage in the previous round. Since nothing can penetrate the Tarrasque's regen, it cannot be killed in any way, including through drowning.
That said, the Tarrasque could have easily just grappled and swallowed whole the Eidolon.
Also, you're using custom items that a sane GM would never allow (ring of +6 all physical stats).
Also, how does the tome of clear thought let you take an extra evolution?
First the drowning rules clearly state you cant regenerate drowning damage so by the rules the Tarrasques regeneration would not take effect against drowning.
Even if the Tarrasque manage to swallow Bob he can easily cut his way out with power attack and claws and after that rip the Tarraque to pieces.
A prone Tarrasque would get hit by even a natural 1 after using 17 points on power attack, making damage for first 2 attacks do 100+6d6 damage the third do 85+6d6 the 4'th 70+6d6 and so on, once you get it down under 0 hp your in the safe zone and can bash away without any danger.
Custom items are by the rules possible to make as long as they do the same as the original item and dont take up aditional slots.
And even if you remove the custom item it would only remove 2 str, dex and con from the buffed Eidolon as it is easy to just bulls strength and so on before the combat.
The tome dont give an extra evolution, it removes the need for one of the +2 int evolutions and frees up points for the flight evolution.
You mean the Share Spells ability? That allows personal spells (spells with a target of "you") to affect it even if it would normally be immune. Enlarge Person has a range of close, targeting any one medium humanoid.
How is it able to be enlarged?
You're also scry-and-frying, which is well known as an imbalanced tactic. You're giving your Eidolon every advantage in the book and saying "OMG IMBA!!!". Well, duh, it's not a fair fight in the first place.
Maybe not a fair fight, but even then the damage done is insane, same with the trip CMB and well, it is the tarrasque.
Enlarge Person doesn't affect the eidolon. It's an outsider. Also, I'm unsure about the use of manuals. As a DM, I'd personally disallow their use.
actually enlarge person would work though the shared spells
and tomes are just another way of saying ive had wish cast a few times on it, which i cant see how you as a GM would forbid.
(Player answer)
First the drowning rules clearly state you cant regenerate drowning damage so by the rules the Tarrasques regeneration would not take effect against drowning.
Even if the Tarrasque manage to swallow Bob he can easily cut his way out with power attack and claws and after that rip the Tarraque to pieces.
A prone Tarrasque would get hit by even a natural 1 after using 17 points on power attack, making damage for first 2 attacks do 100+6d6 damage the third do 85+6d6 the 4'th 70+6d6 and so on, once you get it down under 0 hp your in the safe zone and can bash away without any danger.
Custom items are by the rules possible to make as long as they do the same as the original item and dont take up aditional slots.
And even if you remove the custom item it would only remove 2 str, dex and con from the buffed Eidolon as it is easy to just bulls strength and so on before the combat.
The tome dont give an extra evolution, it removes the need for one of the +2 int evolutions and frees up points for the flight evolution.
You clearly aren't familiar with Pathfinder rules.
1) The drowning rules say nothing about regeneration. The regeneration rules say that regeneration doesn't heal damage from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. However, drowning doesn't deal damage at all, so that doesn't matter. Regeneration prevents death from happening unless the regeneration was penetrated in the previous round, which cannot happen versus the Tarrasque.
2) You cannot choose how much you subtract from your attack roll with Power Attack. You get a penalty equal to 1 + your BAB/4. For a BAB +17 creature with a two-handed weapon, you get -5 to your attack roll and +15 to your damage.
3) You cannot keep a creature permanently tripped. You don't get to re-trip when it stands up, because it provokes while it is still prone and you cannot trip a prone creature.
Anyone that can fly for a long enough time and with enough arrows can kill the Tarrasque.
False. The Tarrasque has a ranged attack. Also, nothing can kill the Tarrasque.
Actually it states the terrasque gets regeneration even against things that would not normally allow it.
this thread takes a long discussion about how to kill the Tarrasque, drowning beeing one of the accepted methods
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/general/how ToKillATarrasqueOfficialThread
Actually it states the terrasque gets regeneration even against things that would not normally allow it.this thread takes a long discussion about how to kill the Tarrasque, drowning beeing one of the accepted methods
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/general/how ToKillATarrasqueOfficialThread
That thread is a "what if?" thread. The official answer, given by James Jacobs, is that the Tarrasque requires a GM-mandated quest to kill.
You clearly aren't familiar with Pathfinder rules.1) The drowning rules say nothing about regeneration. The regeneration rules say that regeneration doesn't heal damage from starvation, thirst, or suffocation. However, drowning doesn't deal damage at all, so that doesn't matter. Regeneration prevents death from happening unless the regeneration was penetrated in the previous round, which cannot happen versus the Tarrasque.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/environment.html
drowning rules at the bottom of page, quite clear that its possible to drown the Tarrasque since it has a constitution score.
2) You cannot choose how much you subtract from your attack roll with Power Attack. You get a penalty equal to 1 + your BAB/4. For a BAB +17 creature with a two-handed weapon, you get -5 to your attack roll and +15 to your damage.
my bad, even then the damage is quite clearly insane.
3) You cannot keep a creature permanently tripped. You don't get to re-trip when it stands up, because it provokes while it is still prone and you cannot trip a prone creature.
would be able to trip it at the start of every turn, forcing to stand up at the start of its turn or suffer from prone.
Actually Enlarge Person does work on the Eidolon, it's a weird clause in it's special abilities description.
--Jingle Bell Vrock
Actually, Enlarge Person is still questionable on the Eidolon, as this thread demonstrates.
There is no official ruling yet, so it isn't clear which way it is supposed to work.
That thread is a "what if?" thread. The official answer, given by James Jacobs, is that the Tarrasque requires a GM-mandated quest to kill.Actually it states the terrasque gets regeneration even against things that would not normally allow it.this thread takes a long discussion about how to kill the Tarrasque, drowning beeing one of the accepted methods
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/general/how ToKillATarrasqueOfficialThread
Which is a story line kill, this kill is based on statistics and rules.
And anyway your missing the point, this post were mostly made to prove that the Eidolon is with its current build a very powerful creature which can achive incredible damage against even the most powerfull creature in the bestiary.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/environment.html
drowning rules at the bottom of page, quite clear that its possible to drown the Tarrasque since it has a constitution score.
Nothing there states that it ignores Regeneration's blanket immunity to death. Drowning is the general rule; regeneration's specific "you cannot die" text override's drowning's general rule. Since drowning doesn't have a further more specific rule, that's as far as it goes. Even if drowning did have more specific text, the Tarrasque has even more specific text, being able to regenerate even from instant death effects.
would be able to trip it at the start of every turn, forcing to stand up at the start of its turn or suffer from prone.
Not once the Tarrasque lands its first bite. Your Eidolon can only avoid being grappled by the Tarrasque's Grab if Big T rolls a 1. At that point, the Tarrasque Swallows Whole and that's all she wrote for the Eidolon.
Not once the Tarrasque lands its first bite. Your Eidolon can only avoid being grappled by the Tarrasque's Grab if Big T rolls a 1. At that point, the Tarrasque Swallows Whole and that's all she wrote for the Eidolon.
first of all, check the CMD of the eidolon, second it needs a 20 to hit with its bite attack before it gets the abillity to use grapple and swallow whole.
second, do you actually have anything valuable to say about how to balance the eidolons huge damage output and/or very high CMB or are you going to continue whining about the tarrasques supposed immortality? if nothing else the Eidolon would simply spend the rest of its summoners life beating away on the Tarrasque ensuring it wouldent regenerate for a long long time.
Not once the Tarrasque lands its first bite. Your Eidolon can only avoid being grappled by the Tarrasque's Grab if Big T rolls a 1. At that point, the Tarrasque Swallows Whole and that's all she wrote for the Eidolon.first of all, check the CMD of the eidolon, second it needs a 20 to hit with its bite attack before it gets the abillity to use grapple and swallow whole.
second, do you actually have anything valuable to say about how to balance the eidolons huge damage output and/or very high CMB or are you going to continue whining about the tarrasques supposed immortality? if nothing else the Eidolon would simply spend the rest of its summoners life beating away on the Tarrasque ensuring it wouldent regenerate for a long long time.
Tarrasque has a +57 CMB against the Eidolons' CMD of 60. That means the Tarrasque only needs to roll a 3 to grapple the Eidolon - no bite required.
So what was that about valuable to say about the Eidolons' balance?
Tarrasque has a +57 CMB against the Eidolons' CMD of 60. That means the Tarrasque only needs to roll a 3 to grapple the Eidolon - no bite required.
doing this without the bite attack succeding would provoke an AoO which could be used as a trip attack preventing the grapple attack.
So what was that about valuable to say about the Eidolons' balance?
thanks for finally adressing the issue which IMHO is the fact that an Eidolon could easily be buffed to cause more than 300 damage a round to even the most tough creatures in the game.
Now i remind you that the Eidolon is the summoners pet and that the summoner as a class have many other powers and abillities which is not affected by the pet.
preventing the grapple attack.
False. You can grapple while prone.
preventing the grapple attack.False. You can grapple while prone.
suffering another -4 to the attack making the roll a 7+ as well as the trip attack giving another AoO for free damage, now keep in mind that the swallow whole is for 1 round where the Eidolon can pop up full power attack and easily do over 52 damage to get out forcing the tarrasque to retry its grapple and while it cant swallow whole before it have regenerated the damage done.
now please adress the real problem for once, the huge damage a pet creature can deal every round, which is close to, if not more than what a level 20 fighter or barbarian can achieve in the same time.
Edit: note the displacement buff for 50% concealment.
thanks for finally adressing the issue which IMHO is the fact that an Eidolon could easily be buffed to cause more than 300 damage a round to even the most tough creatures in the game.
From what I've seen in the discussion so far however, most of the buffs used are questionable, if not impossible:
* Enlarge Person
* Ring of Physical Perfection
* Three different Manuals
As others have stated, the tactic of tripping on a stand-from-prone AoO is also invalid. It also assumes the Tarresque will attempt to stand.
Those issues raise enough doubts in my mind to declare the test moot. Time to scrap, re-check all the rules, and try again. Good luck.
thanks for finally adressing the issue which IMHO is the fact that an Eidolon could easily be buffed to cause more than 300 damage a round to even the most tough creatures in the game.From what I've seen in the discussion so far however, most of the buffs used are questionable, if not impossible:
* Enlarge Person
* Ring of Physical Perfection
* Three different ManualsAs others have stated, the tactic of tripping on a stand-from-prone AoO is also invalid. It also assumes the Tarresque will attempt to stand.
Those issues raise enough doubts in my mind to declare the test moot. Time to scrap, re-check all the rules, and try again. Good luck.
thanks for the serious reply,
if you read the whole post the issue for tomes is kinda moot since its easy to replace by having wish cast directly on the Eidolon
the Ring of Physical Perfection can be replaced by standard stat buffs which are all castable by the summoner, causing a loss of 2 str, dex and con.
Enlarge person is the only real issue and only really in question in a fight vs a colossal creature as the +2 str +2 CMB really isnt needed
against most opponents.
Edit: even by removing these stat buffs you would at max loose 4 str and 4 CMB, Bob is still a monster.
The OP is pointing out that a level 20 eidolon has the damage and durability to handle basically anything solo. Quibbling about plot-device powers is rather missing the point.
finally someone who see the real issue at hand, i thank you sir.
Your point was that the level 20 Eidolon has X power level.
Their points have been that you made some errors, resulting in the Eidolon not being as powerful as you thought it was. You keep hand waiving that away- but it keeps being the issue.
The test needs to be redone with the corrections, so it can be seen if its still an issue after the corrections have been made.
-S
This seems to need some fixing...
Maybe increase the evolution cost for size increase and/or downgrade the bonuses from said evolutions?
Your point was that the level 20 Eidolon has X power level.
Their points have been that you made some errors, resulting in the Eidolon not being as powerful as you thought it was. You keep hand waiving that away- but it keeps being the issue.
The test needs to be redone with the corrections, so it can be seen if its still an issue after the corrections have been made.
-S
Exactly. Among other things, the entire Eidolon concept is nonviable if it's not subject to enlarge person, as a Huge creature cannot trip a Colossal one.
Your point was that the level 20 Eidolon has X power level.
Their points have been that you made some errors, resulting in the Eidolon not being as powerful as you thought it was. You keep hand waiving that away- but it keeps being the issue.
The test needs to be redone with the corrections, so it can be seen if its still an issue after the corrections have been made.
-S
Exactly what issues are you talking about? all people have pointed out is, that the Tarrasque should only be able to be killed as part of a story. The only thing they did was taking down the Tarrasque AS WRITTEN in the bestiary.
The OP is pointing out that a level 20 eidolon has the damage and durability to handle basically anything solo. Quibbling about plot-device powers is rather missing the point.finally someone who see the real issue at hand, i thank you sir.
I would like to point out that this Eidolon isn't actually that optimized. First of all, it doesn't have the +13 or so AC from a 2 pt evo of armor proficiency, which would save it a lot of NA evolutions. You had to spend a ton of evolutions to get int 13... I think trip is hardly the way to go. 10+ tentacles with improved natural weapon and maybe a dimension door SLA to get out of his stomach is probably better. Quad-wielding Huge bastard swords? good, also. Freedom of movement gets around the grapple, anyway, right? Can get that as SLA or have the summoner cast it (haven't checked his list).
Either way, Tarrasque is not the best test for an optimized Eidolon since the tarrasque does only one thing. Any reasonable group and player can minmax on the Tarrasque. I would be surprised if the Eidolon could become immune to everything a Great Gold Wyrm could do... Most outsiders also have spell-likes and the Eidolon's saves don't get super amazing (especially ref.) (balor would dominate, right? DC 33? Can an eidolon hit that?)
Hmmm... Eidolon with antimagic aura SLA... tons of tentacles... I would probably HR or ban summoner if I saw that happen in my game. (eidolons can exist in antimagic fields... I'm pretty sure...)
Exactly. Among other things, the entire Eidolon concept is nonviable if it's not subject to enlarge person, as a Huge creature cannot trip a Colossal one.Your point was that the level 20 Eidolon has X power level.
Their points have been that you made some errors, resulting in the Eidolon not being as powerful as you thought it was. You keep hand waiving that away- but it keeps being the issue.
The test needs to be redone with the corrections, so it can be seen if its still an issue after the corrections have been made.
-S
Let me rimind you, that just becourse there has not been any wording from up above about this, does not mean it might not be viable.
Even if this Eidolon could not trip the Tarrasque, it would still be able to outdamage it...
Size increases do not increase reach.
You can't enlarge person your eidolon.
You can't trip a prone person when they are trying to stand up.
Regardless of whether or not you can drown Big T (since for the purposes of your demonstration it doesn't really matter) the things above Do matter since part of your proposition is that you can stop the T from hitting you by 1) it being out of range when you 2) trip it and 3) keep it tripped while beating on it.
None of those are small "oh well" things. They are part and parcel with the very core of your build. You need to deal with them.
hence, the retest needed. And possibly a rebuild.
-S
This might be a point already addressed elsewhere, but would you have to re-wish all those buffs every day? The Eidolon entry doesn't directly say you summon the same creature every day,
"The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature."
Would summoning an aspect of the same creature allow you to keep the inherent bonuses on each summoning? If not you would need someone capable of casting 9th level spells to help you every morning.
For that matter, would it be summoned with all equipment, or would you have to carry his massive gear when he wasn't summoned?
I hadn't thought of this "aspect of the same creature" question until now, so it would be nice to hear some more input. Also, I might just be stupid.
This might be a point already addressed elsewhere, but would you have to re-wish all those buffs every day? The Eidolon entry doesn't directly say you summon the same creature every day,
"The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature."
Would summoning an aspect of the same creature allow you to keep the inherent bonuses on each summoning? If not you would need someone capable of casting 9th level spells to help you every morning.For that matter, would it be summoned with all equipment, or would you have to carry his massive gear when he wasn't summoned?
I hadn't thought of this "aspect of the same creature" question until now, so it would be nice to hear some more input. Also, I might just be stupid.
NAh, nah. That seems like a very good question. However, my personal feeling from the wording "aspect of the same creature" means it keeps its inherent bonuses. Maybe not the same, but aspect of the same... seems good nuff. That said, I haven't looked it up specifically.
Size increases do not increase reach.
You can't enlarge person your eidolon.
You can't trip a prone person when they are trying to stand up.
Regardless of whether or not you can drown Big T (since for the purposes of your demonstration it doesn't really matter) the things above Do matter since part of your proposition is that you can stop the T from hitting you by 1) it being out of range when you 2) trip it and 3) keep it tripped while beating on it.
None of those are small "oh well" things. They are part and parcel with the very core of your build. You need to deal with them.
hence, the retest needed. And possibly a rebuild.
-S
You are quite aware, that the pourpose of this test was to see, if you could make a Eidolon that could take on the hardest thing to kill in the bestiary, right?
Secondly, The Tarrasque needs to roll a 20 to hit anyways, the trip was just to signify how powerful you could make a Eidolon.
And again, Enlarge person has yet to have any official word on weather or not you can use it on your Eidolon or not. Until we have any offical statement i will follow logic, not that backwards rule-lawyering that seems to be runnung rampant lately.
NAh, nah. That seems like a very good question. However, my personal feeling from the wording "aspect of the same creature" means it keeps its inherent bonuses. Maybe not the same, but aspect of the same... seems good nuff. That said, I haven't looked it up specifically.This might be a point already addressed elsewhere, but would you have to re-wish all those buffs every day? The Eidolon entry doesn't directly say you summon the same creature every day,
"The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature."
Would summoning an aspect of the same creature allow you to keep the inherent bonuses on each summoning? If not you would need someone capable of casting 9th level spells to help you every morning.For that matter, would it be summoned with all equipment, or would you have to carry his massive gear when he wasn't summoned?
I hadn't thought of this "aspect of the same creature" question until now, so it would be nice to hear some more input. Also, I might just be stupid.
That, and you dont need to summon him every day, only if you dissmiss him daily. Or he dies a lot.
Either way, Tarrasque is not the best test for an optimized Eidolon since the tarrasque does only one thing. Any reasonable group and player can minmax on the Tarrasque. I would be surprised if the Eidolon could become immune to everything a Great Gold Wyrm could do... Most outsiders also have spell-likes and the Eidolon's saves don't get super amazing (especially ref.) (balor would dominate, right? DC 33? Can an eidolon hit that?)
Yeah, this is another good point. The Tarrasque has never been a good test monster because it's so focused on its one shtick. An advanced Balor (to equal the Tarrasque's CR 25) would slaughter an Eidolon. Greater dispel magic to strip the buffs, blasphemy (DC 25+ vs 10 will save) to paralyze the Eidolon for 1d10 minutes, and a coup de grace with a vorpal sword to auto-kill the Eidolon.
That, and you dont need to summon him every day, only if you dissmiss him daily. Or he dies a lot.
Regardless, I would like an answer to that question since in my own game I have the opportunity to get a permanent magic fang on my eidolon.
Is this the same creature or just an aspect?
You are quite aware, that the pourpose of this test was to see, if you could make a Eidolon that could take on the hardest thing to kill in the bestiary, right?
You are aware that the Tarrasque isn't the hardest thing to FIGHT in the bestiary, right? Pit fiend is nasty, Balor is nastier, and Great Wyrms are REALLY not cool.
I mean, you can't technically kill the Tarrasque, but that Eidolon is not going to kill a Balor, (much less a 30HD Red Dragon) with a simple combat trick and some natural armor.
But I don't think anybody's mentioned that the tarrasque can shoot spines into the Summoner and kill HIM, instead, right? He has to be within 100ft.
NAh, nah. That seems like a very good question. However, my personal feeling from the wording "aspect of the same creature" means it keeps its inherent bonuses. Maybe not the same, but aspect of the same... seems good nuff. That said, I haven't looked it up specifically.
Given that you can't change the base form (for now, at least), this seems like a reasonable ruling.
YGMV (Your Game May Vary)
And again, Enlarge person has yet to have any official word on weather or not you can use it on your Eidolon or not. Until we have any offical statement i will follow logic, not that backwards rule-lawyering that seems to be runnung rampant lately.
I like how your statement here suggests that KnightErrantJR is illogical, backwards, and a rules lawyer since his interpretation is opposite yours.
NOTE: I selected KnightErrantJR for his well known reputation on the boards. No insult is meant to him.
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The OP is pointing out that a level 20 eidolon has the damage and durability to handle basically anything solo. Quibbling about plot-device powers is rather missing the point.finally someone who see the real issue at hand, i thank you sir.I would like to point out that this Eidolon isn't actually that optimized. First of all, it doesn't have the +13 or so AC from a 2 pt evo of armor proficiency, which would save it a lot of NA evolutions. You had to spend a ton of evolutions to get int 13... I think trip is hardly the way to go. 10+ tentacles with improved natural weapon and maybe a dimension door SLA to get out of his stomach is probably better. Quad-wielding Huge bastard swords? good, also. Freedom of movement gets around the grapple, anyway, right? Can get that as SLA or have the summoner cast it (haven't checked his list).
...snip...
You do realize that Jason has said that the Eidolon cannot wear armor, right?
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advancedPlayersGuidePlaytest/round2/uPDATESummoner
The OP is pointing out that a level 20 eidolon has the damage and durability to handle basically anything solo. Quibbling about plot-device powers is rather missing the point.finally someone who see the real issue at hand, i thank you sir.I would like to point out that this Eidolon isn't actually that optimized. First of all, it doesn't have the +13 or so AC from a 2 pt evo of armor proficiency, which would save it a lot of NA evolutions. You had to spend a ton of evolutions to get int 13... I think trip is hardly the way to go. 10+ tentacles with improved natural weapon and maybe a dimension door SLA to get out of his stomach is probably better. Quad-wielding Huge bastard swords? good, also. Freedom of movement gets around the grapple, anyway, right? Can get that as SLA or have the summoner cast it (haven't checked his list).
...snip...You do realize that Jason has said that the Eidolon cannot wear armor, right?
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advancedPlayersGuidePlaytest/round2/uPDATESummoner
Ah, good point. I'm certainly not complaining. You are right, I should be aware of rules changes--