... and really, really bad puns. ;DI'm all for expanding the death penalty to include rape, child molestation, defrauding the public trust and all white collar crimes involving amounts more than 1 million dollars.In fairness italy does not have the death penalty so no executioner needed, which puts them a step up on the american legal system on at least one moral measure :P"We would not put someone on trail who is not guilty."If one is so sure the person is guilty, why have trials? Just let the police be judge and executioner on the spot.While at the heart of the matter I feel that the death penalty is an unjust and many times improperly put into practice.
There are exceptions to every rule and some people should not be given the option, having given it up as a due course of their actions.
... and anybody who links you to a RickRoll. ;)
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... and anybody who links you to a RickRoll. ;)... and really, really bad puns. ;DI'm all for expanding the death penalty to include rape, child molestation, defrauding the public trust and all white collar crimes involving amounts more than 1 million dollars.In fairness italy does not have the death penalty so no executioner needed, which puts them a step up on the american legal system on at least one moral measure :P"We would not put someone on trail who is not guilty."If one is so sure the person is guilty, why have trials? Just let the police be judge and executioner on the spot.While at the heart of the matter I feel that the death penalty is an unjust and many times improperly put into practice.
There are exceptions to every rule and some people should not be given the option, having given it up as a due course of their actions.
Who would do such a thing?
Who would do such a thing?
A certain angel and a werewolf on these boards tend to be notorious for it. ;)
Hey man, I rickrolled Gary Teter. After than, nothing measured up anymore.
I'm all for expanding the death penalty to include rape, child molestation, defrauding the public trust and all white collar crimes involving amounts more than 1 million dollars.In fairness italy does not have the death penalty so no executioner needed, which puts them a step up on the american legal system on at least one moral measure :P"We would not put someone on trail who is not guilty."If one is so sure the person is guilty, why have trials? Just let the police be judge and executioner on the spot.While at the heart of the matter I feel that the death penalty is an unjust and many times improperly put into practice.
There are exceptions to every rule and some people should not be given the option, having given it up as a due course of their actions.
Sounds like China.
Hey man, I rickrolled Gary Teter. After than, nothing measured up anymore.
So your feeling Rickless? Your Rick not rolling enough to keep your interest.
Muppets Rickroll.
ROFL. This is win on so many levels.
I'm all for expanding the death penalty to include rape, child molestation, defrauding the public trust and all white collar crimes involving amounts more than 1 million dollars.
I'm with you in principle on the first two of these; my concern is that it leaves the perpetrators with no incentive to leave their victims alive.
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Muppets Rickroll.ROFL. This is win on so many levels.
That is awesome but I still say this one takes the cake.
I'm all for expanding the death penalty to include rape, child molestation, defrauding the public trust and all white collar crimes involving amounts more than 1 million dollars.
I love the scene from Lord of the Rings, where Gandalf chides Frodo for him wanting to kill Gollum, when Galdalf states something to the effect that many who live may deserve death, and many who are dead deserve to be alive, but when you can´t give life to them, don´t be so quick about a death sentence.
Death sentence is based on antique ideas of revenge ("An Eye for an Eye"). IMO, modern countries should be beyond revenge. I can fully understand the emotion that this is based upon, but modern societies should strive to not be ruled by emotions. I would surely wish for revenge if one of my beloved would fall victim to a crime on a personal level, but on a more abstract level of the society as a whole, revenge is unbecoming and has the potential to lead to more violence. No sentence stops a hard-boiled criminal anyway from his crimes, and if he faces a death sentence anyway, why should he care about more violence and murder?
rant
And I absolutely can´t stand politicians crying for harsher laws in the face of the newest crime - the laws are there, get the police and the justice in working order to fight the crimes with the existing laws. But passing a new law is of course cheaper than hiring more police forces and expanding courts. My brother works as a judge, and he and his colleagues are constantly overworked and undermanned, so law is a very slow process. Sometimes it is so slow that the crime is no longer persecutable when they come around to work on it. But it is of course easier and gives a better public image to cry to the media "We need better and harsher laws" that to admit "we failed police and justice for decades by not manning and financing them adequately." I even heard stories that policemen had to leave their cars at the station, due to not being able to pay for gas. Good for their fitness, if the have to bicycle more, of course...
/rant
Stefan
I'm all for expanding the death penalty to include rape, child molestation, defrauding the public trust and all white collar crimes involving amounts more than 1 million dollars.I love the scene from Lord of the Rings, where Gandalf chides Frodo for him wanting to kill Gollum, when Galdalf states something to the effect that many who live may deserve death, and many who are dead deserve to be alive, but when you can´t give life to them, don´t be so quick about a death sentence.
Death sentence is based on antique ideas of revenge ("An Eye for an Eye"). IMO, modern countries should be beyond revenge. I can fully understand the emotion that this is based upon, but modern societies should strive to not be ruled by emotions. I would surely wish for revenge if one of my beloved would fall victim to a crime on a personal level, but on a more abstract level of the society as a whole, revenge is unbecoming and has the potential to lead to more violence. No sentence stops a hard-boiled criminal anyway from his crimes, and if he faces a death sentence anyway, why should he care about more violence and murder?
Most perpetrators of rape and child molestation are forced by uncontrollable patterns of behavior, urges that can't be controlled or cured and if they did it once they will do it again. Permantly removing them isn't revenge it's self preservation of humanity as a whole.
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Most perpetrators of rape and child molestation are forced by uncontrollable patterns of behavior, urges that can't be controlled or cured and if they did it once they will do it again. Permantly removing them isn't revenge it's self preservation of humanity as a whole.
Not entirely correct with respect to treatment, and a tumour pressing on just the wrong part of your brain would induce such uncontrollable behaviour in you. Should you then be 'permanently removed'?
Not entirely correct with respect to treatment, and a tumour pressing on just the wrong part of your brain would induce such uncontrollable behaviour in you. Should you then be 'permanently removed'?Most perpetrators of rape and child molestation are forced by uncontrollable patterns of behavior, urges that can't be controlled or cured and if they did it once they will do it again. Permantly removing them isn't revenge it's self preservation of humanity as a whole.
Yes, it would be bad luck for me but no other innocent child, woman or man would be harmed.
Well, for perpetrators who are considererd unfit to join society ever again, there is the option of having them interred permanently, be it in a jail or in a special hospital. Thus, they are permanently removed from society as well without killing them. Yes, I consider this more humane than killing. YMMV, of course, but I don´t approve killing humans for any reason, no matter how justified it may seem. Just for the record, I speak of killing as in "not acting in self-defense". Defending yourself if your life (or others lifes, for that matter) is immediately threatened is another thing entirely.
Stefan
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Most perpetrators of rape and child molestation are forced by uncontrollable patterns of behavior, urges that can't be controlled or cured and if they did it once they will do it again. Permantly removing them isn't revenge it's self preservation of humanity as a whole.
That's probably excessive, to say the least, especially with regards to rape. Child molestation, maybe, but even then I suspect you are on a sticky wicket. What is a child? Should someone be executed for having sex with someone aged 15 years and 364 days? Many people are now on sex offenders registers for teenage stuff they did years ago, and which they will never repeat.
As for rape, as doubtless you are aware, are performed by people familir to the victim and with both parties often under the influence of alcohol. It is often difficult to determine if consent was actually given under those circumstances, and boils down to "he said, she said". Do you really want to hang the death penalty on that? It is easy to get all moralistic and desire to smack down on "perpetrators of evil" but frankly, in my view, the justice system sould probably react proportionately to the circumstances. Kneejerk armchair jurists, and the politicians that pander to them by making these choices seem simple when they are not, only make this harder and justice is consequently rarely served.
Death for white-collar crime? Good grief, now we really are in loony-land. Since some frauds are so complex as to very difficult for jurors to understand who do not have detailed knowledge of finance, the risk of miscarriage of justice at the very least surely makes that untenable. And what, exactly, deserves death in those circumstances? Does someone deserve to die because your 401k has lost a bit of value?
Xabulba under the right conditions, you could be turned into a rapist. If a third party where to use the finding of realistic conflict theory and milgrams work on Obedience and the techniques of cult formation to turn you and four other guys into rapists. Would it be right to put you to death?
It might well also be worth remembering neil gaiman on the following quote
I believe...there's nothing wrong with the death penalty if you can trust the legal system implicitly, and that no one but a moron would ever trust the legal system.
How do you deal with unsafe conviction? How do you prevent miscarrages of justice?
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Xabulba under the right conditions, you could be turned into a rapist. If a third party where to use the finding of realistic conflict theory and milgrams work on Obedience and the techniques of cult formation to turn you and four other guys into rapists. Would it be right to put you to death?
It might well also be worth remembering neil gaiman on the following quote
I believe...there's nothing wrong with the death penalty if you can trust the legal system implicitly, and that no one but a moron would ever trust the legal system.
How do you deal with unsafe conviction? How do you prevent miscarrages of justice?
Not to mention that sometimes people are just screwed up and will lie to get you in trouble. I once met a female who wanted to be rough in bed....really rough. All I could picture was her deciding that when the relationship goes bad that she could have me jailed so I preemptively dumped her before taking it to the level she was looking for (which I was totally NOT comfortable with even though she was super-hot).
There are some strange birds out there and it sounds like this Knox woman was one of them. Don't know what happened but there is a lot of weird going on with this case and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that everyone has it wrong.|
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That's probably excessive, to say the least, especially with regards to rape. Child molestation, maybe, but even then I suspect you are on a sticky wicket. What is a child? Should someone be executed for having sex with someone aged 15 years and 364 days? Many people are now on sex offenders registers for teenage stuff they did years ago, and which they will never repeat.
Another point, what if the elder in this case is 18 or 19 and the kid is just shy of 16? What if the almost 16 year old lies about their age? What if the relationship started before the elder turned 18 and continued on? I actually know several people that had these thing happen and are now shackled with the label of Child Molester. One dude was in 11th grade when he started dating a 9th grader, they were sweethearts but the girl's mom decided after the dude turned 18 to report the 'crime' and had him arrested. Now he needs to register as an offender, gets random threats pinned to his door telling him that he is a neighborhood threat, sometimes his car or house is vandalized. It's pretty brutal to toss about labels without some foreknowledge and a certain level of flexibility in judging.
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How do you deal with unsafe conviction? How do you prevent miscarrages of justice?
No system is perfect, that is true, but it is far less likely that someone would be wrongly convicted in a day where more and more cases can and are resolved by forensics. Before you start moaning about CSI I would point out that forensiscs played a big part in an not guilty verdict for O.J. Simpson., long before CSI. Also the fact that in capital cases the standard is beyond reasonable doubt and that the jury must be in complete agreement and you have a system that is at least reasonably certain of providing a verdict that is accurate. Add on that in the U.S. each death row imnate gets at least a half dozen appeals and that any irregularities may trigger a retrial, which resets the appeals as well, and you create a system where, at least in the U.S., more death row inmates die of old age each year then are executed each decade.
(...)more death row inmtes die of old age each year then are executed each decade.
Then, why bother? Honestly, if death penalties are executed so rarely, just do away with it. What´s the point?
One consequence of these rarely executed death penalties is that the executioners are not well-practiced enough to do it without causing severe pain, and even complete failures to kill the convict in more than one case in the past, which is even less humane than killing them in the first place.Stefan
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Another point, what if the elder in this case is 18 or 19 and the kid is just shy of 16? What if the almost 16 year old lies about their age? What if the relationship started before the elder turned 18 and continued on?
Georgia case where the young man convicted was also a minor. Apparently the Georgia law did not recognize age as a factor, so if two 16 year olds were intimate, they could both be tried and convicted as sex offenders.
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"An eye for an eye" is in my perception the most quoted and most oft misquoted phrase int he Bible. It means "let the punishment fit the crime" when taken in context. Not a call for vengeance. point in fact the Bible also has a says something about vengeance.
Doing away with the death sentence is a very good possibility, it means we do away with a miscarriage of justice when we get it wrong, and kills someone for a crime that they did not commit. which has happened. That being said there are a few people out there whose crimes are so hideous that they deserve not save to be relegated to a small line in a history book.
No system is perfect, that is true, but it is far less likely that someone would be wrongly convicted in a day where more and more cases can and are resolved by forensics. Before you start moaning about CSI I would point out that forensiscs played a big part in an not guilty verdict for O.J. Simpson., long before CSI. Also the fact that in capital cases the standard is beyond reasonable doubt and that the jury must be in complete agreement and you have a system that is at least reasonably certain of providing a verdict that is accurate. Add on that in the U.S. each death row imnate gets at least a half dozen appeals and that any irregularities may trigger a retrial, which resets the appeals as well, and you create a system where, at least in the U.S., more death row inmates die of old age each year then are executed each decade.
How do you deal with unsafe conviction? How do you prevent miscarrages of justice?
In fairness, in england we have forensics dramas that go back to my childhood, CSI is the least of my worries.
The fact is that even with the safe guards in place, miscarraged can happen. Even with forensic evidence, unsafe convictions are made.
It is just safer from the stand point of justice, not to have a death penalty.
I believe there is a fair degree of evidence from sociology and criminology to show that death penalties are in effective deterant to crime, though i wouldn't be able to easily back that up. Certainly, those countries with low violent crime rates, tend also not to have death penelties, if my memory serves.
Add to this that the death penalty is almost entirely unjustifiable on moral grounds, and really i fail to see the attraction.
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That is awesome but I still say this one takes the cake.Muppets Rickroll.ROFL. This is win on so many levels.
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Personally, I'm a fan of this one.That is awesome but I still say this one takes the cake.Muppets Rickroll.ROFL. This is win on so many levels.
That was darn clever. I am one of the few people who seems to not be able to stand nirvana, but that was clever.
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Personally, I'm a fan of this one.That is awesome but I still say this one takes the cake.Muppets Rickroll.ROFL. This is win on so many levels.
That is the coolest Rick Roll ever!!
That is the coolest Rick Roll ever!!Personally, I'm a fan of this one.That is awesome but I still say this one takes the cake.Muppets Rickroll.ROFL. This is win on so many levels.
Yes, it is. When Rick Astley first came out I had a friend who looked remarkably like him except for being a little thicker. (i.e. he wasn't a stick)
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Yes, I consider this more humane than killing.
Ever been to prison? Didn't think so. If I were given a life sentence with no chance of parole, I couldn't kill myself fast enough.
(I've been to prison, seven and a half years was almost too much).
Here's another one: Do you regularly consort with murderers, rapists and pedophiles? I did. In prison. To use the term "human" to describe them is an insult to the species I belong to.
Meh.
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Yes, I consider this more humane than killing.Ever been to prison? Didn't think so. If I were given a life sentence with no chance of parole, I couldn't kill myself fast enough.
(I've been to prison, seven and a half years was almost too much).
Here's another one: Do you regularly consort with murderers, rapists and pedophiles? I did. In prison. To use the term "human" to describe them is an insult to the species I belong to.
Meh.
So Derek where do you stand? Death sentence ok? Usecd to much/ not used enough?
I realize you are in Texas so many people around there might be more pro Kill 'em all let G~D sort it out.
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Yes, I consider this more humane than killing.Ever been to prison? Didn't think so. If I were given a life sentence with no chance of parole, I couldn't kill myself fast enough.
(I've been to prison, seven and a half years was almost too much).
Here's another one: Do you regularly consort with murderers, rapists and pedophiles? I did. In prison. To use the term "human" to describe them is an insult to the species I belong to.
Meh.
So Derek where do you stand? Death sentence ok? Usecd to much/ not used enough?
I realize you are in Texas so many people around there might be more pro Kill 'em all let G~D sort it out.
I don't really care. I just wish both sides would be consistent. The anti-death penalty people have no problems, apparently, with killing unborn babies, and the pro-life types have no problem killing grown people. You'd think they'd straighten that stuff out.
As far as the death penalty goes, if you live in a state that has it, don't do stuff that invokes it (i.e. if you can't do the time, don't do the crime). Like the Canadian dude that got the needle here in Texas in the 90s. The Canadian government pushed to have his sentence changed to life without parole, the State of Texas response was, basically, if he didn't want to die from lethal injection, he should have killed a 92 year old Canadian woman for her welfare check in Canada, not a 92 year old Texas woman for her welfare check in Texas.
Now, having been to prison, I must say that, imo, spending the rest of your life there would be worse than dying, so I'd rather put scum away for life, zero chance of getting out (and I don't think rapists and pedophiles should be allowed protective custody, put them in gen pop and let nature take its course). But I have a hard time giving a damn about the issue considering the crimes that carry the DP.
Seriously, I'm going to give two s~*%s about some dirtbag that tortured and raped women before killing them and dumping their bodies in some remote place? Or the douchebag that killed the two nice old ladies who worked at the convenience store across the street from my friend's place twelve years ago, when he robbed them (they never caught the piece of s#%@, as far as I know)? Why would I care what happens to monsters like that?
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I can understand that. In fact I agree with parts of it.
I am pro-life both in the DP and with abortions. With a caveat in both. DP if it is a mass killing or a truly horrid crime, such as rape and torture. Or a serial killings, fry the sucker. Likewise when the mothers life is in jeopardy then she should have the option.
Yes, I consider this more humane than killing.Ever been to prison? Didn't think so. If I were given a life sentence with no chance of parole, I couldn't kill myself fast enough.
(I've been to prison, seven and a half years was almost too much).
Here's another one: Do you regularly consort with murderers, rapists and pedophiles? I did. In prison. To use the term "human" to describe them is an insult to the species I belong to.
Meh.
So Derek where do you stand? Death sentence ok? Usecd to much/ not used enough?
I realize you are in Texas so many people around there might be more pro Kill 'em all let G~D sort it out.
I don't really care. I just wish both sides would be consistent. The anti-death penalty people have no problems, apparently, with killing unborn babies, and the pro-life types have no problem killing grown people. You'd think they'd straighten that stuff out.
As far as the death penalty goes, if you live in a state that has it, don't do stuff that invokes it (i.e. if you can't do the time, don't do the crime). Like the Canadian dude that got the needle here in Texas in the 90s. The Canadian government pushed to have his sentence changed to life without parole, the State of Texas response was, basically, if he didn't want to die from lethal injection, he should have killed a 92 year old Canadian woman for her welfare check in Canada, not a 92 year old Texas woman for her welfare check in Texas.
Now, having been to prison, I must say that, imo, spending the rest of your life there would be worse than dying, so I'd rather put scum away for life, zero chance of getting out (and I don't think rapists and pedophiles should be allowed protective custody, put them in gen pop and let nature take its course). But I have a hard time giving a damn about the issue considering the crimes that carry the DP.
Seriously, I'm going to give two s&@*s about some dirtbag that tortured and raped women...
+1
The anti-death penalty people have no problems, apparently, with killing unborn babies,
Yeah, that's a thing I don't get. There were plenty of people who whined and cried about the fact that we water-boarded three monsters to get important national security info out of. However, these same people have no problems with an unborn child being ripped out of the mother's womb at a whim. Perhaps I'm not "enlightened" enough to understand the logic to that.