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So in the fantastical world, any polytheistic one will do, the Gods are real, their presence is tangible, etc. Does an active atheist suffer consequences for their belief?
To be more specific: The Atheist can see the works of the Gods, just as everyone else can, through clerics and avatars and whatnot - he just chooses to believe... something else. It doesn't matter what The Atheist's reasoning is, he's just convinced the Gods don't exist, that those displays of power come from some other source.
Moreover, he's actively trying to convince others in this world to believe what he believes: that there are no Gods. What in-world consequences, if any, arise for such a person? How do others view and interact with The Atheist? Do the Gods take notice? Do they take any action? Is the Atheist's "logic" at all likely to gain a following?
Yes, they are suffering consequences since they cripple their own soul. It is detailed in the Pathfinder Chronicle "The Great Beyond" and in the Campaign Setting, see also this thread.
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So in the fantastical world, any polytheistic one will do, the Gods are real, their presence is tangible, etc. Does an active atheist suffer consequences for their belief?
To be more specific: The Atheist can see the works of the Gods, just as everyone else can, through clerics and avatars and whatnot - he just chooses to believe... something else. It doesn't matter what The Atheist's reasoning is, he's just convinced the Gods don't exist, that those displays of power come from some other source.
Moreover, he's actively trying to convince others in this world to believe what he believes: that there are no Gods. What in-world consequences, if any, arise for such a person? How do others view and interact with The Atheist? Do the Gods take notice? Do they take any action? Is the Atheist's "logic" at all likely to gain a following?
The Athar of Planescape had similar beliefs, where they held that the Gods were basically just High-high-level outsiders, and not worthy of worship. There were benefits, ranging from spell resistance to divine magic on up, as well as drawbacks such as resistance to being raised or healed. I believe the Planar Handbook updated the faction for 3.5, with a prestige class that encompassed some of their bonuses.
I don't think that in a fantastical setting one could be strictly athiest, as in denying the existence of Gods. The Athar's route of "they are there, but not worthy of worship because they're not that special" would hold up more water in a philisophical debate. After all, even a benign deity's clerics would be sorely tempted to flame-strike someone who continuously argued that "their god is just a figment of their imagination".
So in the fantastical world, any polytheistic one will do, the Gods are real, their presence is tangible, etc. Does an active atheist suffer consequences for their belief?
To be more specific: The Atheist can see the works of the Gods, just as everyone else can, through clerics and avatars and whatnot - he just chooses to believe... something else. It doesn't matter what The Atheist's reasoning is, he's just convinced the Gods don't exist, that those displays of power come from some other source.
Moreover, he's actively trying to convince others in this world to believe what he believes: that there are no Gods. What in-world consequences, if any, arise for such a person? How do others view and interact with The Atheist? Do the Gods take notice? Do they take any action? Is the Atheist's "logic" at all likely to gain a following?
There are no lack of examples from our own world about in-world consequences for heretics who oppose the local orthodox religion:
* Blasphemy Law
* Galileo
* Salem Witch Trials
As for the Gods, how they interact with anybody is up to them.
A being as powerful as a God and insecure enough to care about a mortal who doesn't even oppose their goals (just gives them a mental raspberry) is truly frightening to consider.
As for the logic taking hold, there are several cults in our own world to consider:
* Flat Earth Society
* Heaven's Gate
* Jonestown
* UFO Cult
It would seem any idea (no matter how strange) can be taken up by a large number of people, given a charismatic enough leader to push it.
I don't see why a Disbelief cult would have any harder a time of it than say a Flat Earth cult.
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As a side note, I am an Atheist and I studied Philosophy of Religion in college quite a bit.
Usually, there is more to most kinds of atheism than "I don't believe in God(s)".
I can help you explore those and how they might have evolved in Golarion if you like.
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The consequences of *insincere* worship don't necessarily have to be obvious to the average person, either.
I'm sure a great many Chelaxians who used to worship Aroden make great shows of piety to Asmodeus and care not a fig for his tenets once the priest is out of sight. Their own god is dead, his churches abandoned or repurposed, and they are dispirited, unaware that their current faithless state carries very real dangers to their disposition in the afterlife. I doubt very much that they would *sincerely* convert immediately to Iomedae (or Asmodeus, or Abadar), and some might well 'fall between the cracks' by dying before they found a new faith (or lived a long life without ever abandoning their faith in Aroden, which will result in a terrible fate for them, as Aroden cannot claim their faithful souls). In the case of a god's death, only the fickle, who quickly adopt a new religion and abandon their original faith, will be saved!
And yet, those who all-too quickly jumped to a new church, and have zero faith in the 'new god,' just going to temple services to be seen and recognized as a loyal follower of the new boss, same as the old boss, for social and political reasons, might or might not truly qualify as 'worshippers' as they have zero respect for the teachings of their new 'faith' and are just going to services to show off their 'piety' to their neighbors, along with their latest fancy clothing.
Similarly, I'm sure a lot of practitioners of the Green Faith will smile politely and nod approvingly when the travelling Cleric of Erastil is present, and then go back to their 'old ways' when he's left the village.
So in the fantastical world, any polytheistic one will do, the Gods are real, their presence is tangible, etc. Does an active atheist suffer consequences for their belief?
To be more specific: The Atheist can see the works of the Gods, just as everyone else can, through clerics and avatars and whatnot - he just chooses to believe... something else. It doesn't matter what The Atheist's reasoning is, he's just convinced the Gods don't exist, that those displays of power come from some other source.
Moreover, he's actively trying to convince others in this world to believe what he believes: that there are no Gods. What in-world consequences, if any, arise for such a person? How do others view and interact with The Atheist? Do the Gods take notice? Do they take any action? Is the Atheist's "logic" at all likely to gain a following?
Depends on the religions(s) in your game. How tolerant are they? As for the gods themselves, I doubt they would notice unless the philosphy of non-belief becomes popular enough to threaten their base of worship. The worshippers of the gods, on the other hand, might take great offence -- and have the power to do something about him / her. Something unpleasant in all likelihood.
It also depends on the "non-believer" as well. If they are some harmless crackpot that no one takes seriously, like say, oh, an academic or a bearded guy in shaby clothes with a sign in the market square, it's probably no big deal. If they are influential, rich, powerful, or potentially so, it would be taken more seriously.
In my game world, crackpots on the corner are as common in some areas as beggars. People sigh, roll their eyes, maybe toss them a copper piece and keep walking. Some are religious in bent, some political, others just plain insane. It takes all kinds. The level of toleration for any of them depends on the charachter of those in immediate power / authority, where they are located, and what their particular spiel is.
Areas with polytheistic set ups are likely to be more tolerant than say, our own Middle Ages. But their are bound to be limits and if someoen is offensive enough I would imagine the powers that be would act...
As for gaining adherants... less likely in a world in which the gods are demonstrably real I would say. But Charisma, persistance and time might net them some "believers". Adverse conditions within the portfolio of a particular god, or gods, might increase their chances. Say, crop failure might hurt the god of agriculture / fertility. I can certainly see demonic or diabolic forces trying to undermine organized religion in an area like this. Sounds like a good adventure seed, doesn't it?
I had a few thoughts on this on my blog:
As a side note, I am an Atheist and I studied Philosophy of Religion in college quite a bit. Usually, there is more to most kinds of atheism than "I don't believe in God(s)". I can help you explore those and how they might have evolved in Golarion if you like.
I'm intrigued by this line of thinking and its application to a fantasy setting where gods are common. The reference to the Athar of Planescape makes sense where these high / ascended beings are not worthy of worship. Losing faith also makes sense as well, but to simply disbelieve the existance of gods? Aside from visiting the deities' planar realms or offering some sort of explanation how divine casters draw their power, how would one pull this off ... in a setting like Golarion for example?
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My take on it all is that Pathfinder is a game. You can do with it what you will.
the game itself involves a complex use of deep rooted archetypes which differ from player to player, but hold some cultural commonalities. Using gods as more powerful or more perfect embodiments of these archetypes is merely empowering a person of faith (as opposed to wizardly logic) to access deeper magic within or around themselves.
An atheistic "cleric" seems to me merely a wizard. In my imagination (again this is just a game) a cleric is merely a pious sorceror.
I jumped in and wanted to start a long litany about the Athar, when i read the post of Thammuz who ninjaed me and spoiled my show-off moment.
Curses.
;)
So in the fantastical world, any polytheistic one will do, the Gods are real, their presence is tangible, etc. Does an active atheist suffer consequences for their belief?
It depends on the campaign world.
For instance, in the Eberron campaign setting, you could easily have a blasphemous or even atheistic cleric; the gods are remote, if they exist at all, and the afterlife is pretty much the same for everyone. Whereas in the Forgotten Realms, everyone has a patron deity, and there are consequences in the afterlife to repudiating the gods.
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So in the fantastical world, any polytheistic one will do, the Gods are real, their presence is tangible, etc. Does an active atheist suffer consequences for their belief?
To be more specific: The Atheist can see the works of the Gods, just as everyone else can, through clerics and avatars and whatnot - he just chooses to believe... something else. It doesn't matter what The Atheist's reasoning is, he's just convinced the Gods don't exist, that those displays of power come from some other source.
Moreover, he's actively trying to convince others in this world to believe what he believes: that there are no Gods. What in-world consequences, if any, arise for such a person? How do others view and interact with The Atheist? Do the Gods take notice? Do they take any action? Is the Atheist's "logic" at all likely to gain a following?
To answer the OPs question, I suppose it would depend on the cosmological “laws “ of the world. For example, in some worlds, Deities draw power from their worshipers. The more worshipers the more power the deity has. Conversely if the deity has no worshipers, if no mortal believes he exists, he ceases to exist. I would think with such an arrangement the concept of Atheism would be a very threat to the deity’s existence, and thus atheism would probably be very actively discouraged.
I would guess in some other cosmologies, where everyone has a claim to a soul, the atheist might have a variety of fates waiting for him in the afterlife, anything from, being part of a bone wall, to being the harvest for devils and demons.
I suppose it all depends on the cosmology of the world. In the home brew world I created for the homebrew games I run, the gods had their power through the fiat of a creator deity. The gods care about their mortal charges because they have incarnated, taken on mortal form and lived thousands of lives.
Concerning atheism, it isn’t really a problem. Mortals are free to believe or not to believe in the gods as they wish. It makes no difference to the god’s power or to their existence if mortals believe in them or not. Denying that the gods exist, is somewhat like saying the sun doesn’t radiate light., or water isn’t wet. The Gods are part of the fabric of that universe. Atheists are pretty much ignored, pitied even.
Again it depends on the world and its cosmology.
To me it might be more interesting to ask how an Atheist deals with the evidence of the divine directly in front of him/her. To be honest we are talking about a place where the Gods exist. Period. Demons, devils, angels, miracles and divine power are fact. And there are folks around who can prove that fact. Maybe not commonplace, but they are common knowledge.
In our world we can argue for eons. In Golarion all one has to do is look to his left or right and see a companion that is a Paladin, Cleric, Oracle or Favored Soul. Hell, even Sorcerors, Bards and Wizards can be argued as evidence of the gods influence.
What I mean to say is that in such a world those who argue the non-existance of the Divine might look as strange to the common man as those who are Zeolots in our world. The Athar are a bit different as they are adventurers or Planar Travellers who deal with the Divine and their planes in a way that makes it acceptable to actually question the existance of the Gods as true divinity instead of transcended mortals.
Where I can see a person who might not care all that much about the Gods, (What can they have to do with growing crops, raising kids and paying taxes to the Lords?) I have trouble seeing a person who outright denies their existence. This might not the be the case at your table.
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Here is the problem with Atheism in a fantasy game setting. It means more than not believing in deities. Atheism means you do not believe in anything supernatural, from fey, to dragons, to magic, to the divine.
I've seen many atheists claim to believe in ghosts, psychic powers, the existence of the soul or even in angels. I don't doubt there are some who believe in fairies or cryptozoology too. Atheism means what it says, No-god-ism, and there are plenty of arguments even over what that implies. You won't find any other idea on which all atheists either must or do agree.
Personally, I think it all boils down as to what is the actual definition of atheism in the confines of a setting that does show the existence of gods. Maybe there's a better word or prefix that would work?
Off on a tangent, it makes me think about Q and how he fits into the Star Trek universe. Given that he has a bit of a quasi-deitism with regard to powers he possess, he may have a different concept of how he views the divine.
I think the Athar's views of deities versus transcended mortals seems to be the most applicable.
Here is the problem with Atheism in a fantasy game setting. It means more than not believing in deities. Atheism means you do not believe in anything supernatural, from fey, to dragons, to magic, to the divine.
Huh? In fantasy games, the "supernatural" (magic) is natural. That's like saying that a real-world atheist doesn't believe in gravity.
In our world we can argue for eons. In Golarion all one has to do is look to his left or right and see a companion that is a Paladin, Cleric, Oracle or Favored Soul. Hell, even Sorcerors, Bards and Wizards can be argued as evidence of the gods influence.
Well, to be fair, one could always assume that divine magic has a different source than the priests claim. I mean, heck, a psion can do a lot of the same tricks as a cleric, and he's just pulling stuff out of his head. In fact, I recall a fair amount of sci-fi/fantasy stories that involve witches and clerics who are actually just psychics or mutants or what-have-you (like Witch Hunter Robin or the Warlock books by Christopher Stasheff.)
I mean... most Golarionians have probably seen clerics performing miracles, but has a god actually come down and said 'Yo, I am here? Yeah... that See-El-Doubleyu? All me.' What proves that clerics aren't just heavily armored healing wizards? In older editions you could even be a cleric of a philosophy, not a god. And... I think most wizards would be annoyed at being accused of being evidence of the divine, because it would deny their own personal mastery of cosmic power.
On the other hand, I'd say the bulk of a medieval populous isn't going to look too deeply for alternate explanations for holy miracles... which makes me worried about Golarion's fate. After all, the Moon... ah, Groteus needs atheist souls to keep it from crashing into Termina. Um. I mean Pharasma.
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Here is the problem with Atheism in a fantasy game setting. It means more than not believing in deities. Atheism means you do not believe in anything supernatural, from fey, to dragons, to magic, to the divine.I've seen many atheists claim to believe in ghosts, psychic powers, the existence of the soul or even in angels. I don't doubt there are some who believe in fairies or cryptozoology too. Atheism means what it says, No-god-ism, and there are plenty of arguments even over what that implies. You won't find any other idea on which all atheists either must or do agree.
Actually, no, atheism is non-belief in the existence of the supernatural, of which deities are a part. While it can be argued what exactly that includes, that it the definition of atheism.
Actually, no, atheism is non-belief in the existence of the supernatural, of which deities are a part. While it can be argued what exactly that includes, that it the definition of atheism.
I agree with you. Sometimes I think people get atheists and agnostics confused. Kinda like there's a zillion different Christian sects and there's too many schisms to keep up with who's "right" and who's foolishly playing with poisonous snakes.
Anywho....back on topic.
Actually, no, atheism is non-belief in the existence of the supernatural, of which deities are a part. While it can be argued what exactly that includes, that it the definition of atheism.
According to dictionary.com, atheism is...
"the doctrine or belief that there is no God."
or
"disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings."
Also according to said dictionary.com, it derives from Greek meaning "godless + -ism"
I think we have something of a definition clash here that renders neither party wrong. The current (and long-running) school/philosophy of atheism is to only believe what can be touched and percieved and/or scientifically accounted for, but it is classically associated with and name-rooted to a disbelief in the gods.
On the supernatural/science level.... in a D&D universe, there is scientific support for the existence of fey and magic (ie, my next-door neighbor is a gnome or dryad or wizard.) For gods... well, there's a lot of circumstantial evidence, but most people only have clerics' word for it on for where their magic comes.
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Actually, no, atheism is non-belief in the existence of the supernatural, of which deities are a part. While it can be argued what exactly that includes, that it the definition of atheism.Here is the problem with Atheism in a fantasy game setting. It means more than not believing in deities. Atheism means you do not believe in anything supernatural, from fey, to dragons, to magic, to the divine.I've seen many atheists claim to believe in ghosts, psychic powers, the existence of the soul or even in angels. I don't doubt there are some who believe in fairies or cryptozoology too. Atheism means what it says, No-god-ism, and there are plenty of arguments even over what that implies. You won't find any other idea on which all atheists either must or do agree.
Then perhaps the title should be anti-theist or perhaps apatheism as a proper way of expressing this idea?
Just to, you know, get the thread back on track, so to speak.
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To me it might be more interesting to ask how an Atheist deals with the evidence of the divine directly in front of him/her. To be honest we are talking about a place where the Gods exist. Period. Demons, devils, angels, miracles and divine power are fact. And there are folks around who can prove that fact. Maybe not commonplace, but they are common knowledge.
In our world we can argue for eons. In Golarion all one has to do is look to his left or right and see a companion that is a Paladin, Cleric, Oracle or Favored Soul. Hell, even Sorcerors, Bards and Wizards can be argued as evidence of the gods influence.
What I mean to say is that in such a world those who argue the non-existance of the Divine might look as strange to the common man as those who are Zeolots in our world. The Athar are a bit different as they are adventurers or Planar Travellers who deal with the Divine and their planes in a way that makes it acceptable to actually question the existance of the Gods as true divinity instead of transcended mortals.
Where I can see a person who might not care all that much about the Gods, (What can they have to do with growing crops, raising kids and paying taxes to the Lords?) I have trouble seeing a person who outright denies their existence. This might not the be the case at your table.
It isn't hard to see how people could deny their existence. Evolution is a fact. We see new species forming all the time (here is one source:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html). You don't even have to reach for any of the other forms of evidence (and there are mountains of evidence) which prove the fact of evolution. It is as obviously real as gravity, or earthquakes occurring because tectonic plates are moving around. And yet many people, probably most people in the United States don't believe evolution is real.|
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To me it might be more interesting to ask how an Atheist deals with the evidence of the divine directly in front of him/her. To be honest we are talking about a place where the Gods exist. Period. Demons, devils, angels, miracles and divine power are fact. And there are folks around who can prove that fact. Maybe not commonplace, but they are common knowledge.
In our world we can argue for eons. In Golarion all one has to do is look to his left or right and see a companion that is a Paladin, Cleric, Oracle or Favored Soul. Hell, even Sorcerors, Bards and Wizards can be argued as evidence of the gods influence.
What I mean to say is that in such a world those who argue the non-existance of the Divine might look as strange to the common man as those who are Zeolots in our world. The Athar are a bit different as they are adventurers or Planar Travellers who deal with the Divine and their planes in a way that makes it acceptable to actually question the existance of the Gods as true divinity instead of transcended mortals.
Where I can see a person who might not care all that much about the Gods, (What can they have to do with growing crops, raising kids and paying taxes to the Lords?) I have trouble seeing a person who outright denies their existence. This might not the be the case at your table.
It isn't hard to see how people could deny their existence. Evolution is a fact. We see new species forming all the time (here is one source:
talkorigins). You don't even have to reach for any of the other forms of evidence (and there are mountains of evidence) which prove the fact of evolution. It is as obviously real as gravity, or earthquakes occurring because tectonic plates are moving around. And yet many people, probably most people in the United States don't believe evolution is real.
But we are not talking real life here. That would be better devoted to another thread We are talking about Golarion and how and why there is a group of people despite the evidence who do not worship the in thier minds "so-called gods"
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I mean... most Golarionians have probably seen clerics performing miracles, but has a god actually come down and said 'Yo, I am here? Yeah... that See-El-Doubleyu? All me.' What proves that clerics aren't just heavily armored healing wizards? In older editions you could even be a cleric of a philosophy, not a god.
There are a few. my Galorian names are not good, but Aroden, Azmodius, Ilsomething or another, have all made recent public appearances. In Galorian, you can be a Cleric of a philosophy and not a deity. Additionally, you can be a Cleric of non-deity enteties, such as some of the Heavenly hosts and archdemons/devils. A few are mentioned in PF Campaign Setting (both philosophies and other sources).
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It isn't hard to see how people could deny their existence. Evolution is a fact. We see new species forming all the time (here is one source:
talkorigins). You don't even have to reach for any of the other forms of evidence (and there are mountains of evidence) which prove the fact of evolution. It is as obviously real as gravity, or earthquakes occurring because tectonic plates are moving around. And yet many people, probably most people in the United States don't believe evolution is real.
There is actually much more evidence against evolution, which is mistakenly not a fact in the tradiotional meaning of the word. There is a difference between a fact and a scientific fact, and Evolution is the later. This makes for a good example of a real world religion though, for this topic. It is easy to see both ways how people can't see the other side of the arguement.
Then perhaps the title should be anti-theist or perhaps apatheism as a proper way of expressing this idea?
Nice twist on a pair of words. I'm going to steal that and add to my lexicon. :)
Okay, word-naming aside for people who don't believe in divinity (and I'm going to keep using the word atheist, because, you know, root 'godless' just works,) we know Golarion has atheists because we know they're an important part of the afterlife ecology... IE, they keep the moon from eating us. Can't rest in peace, Moon will eat me.
We know they exist. The campaign setting says they do.
The two-part question is "How do they exist in a world where divine magic manifests, and how believable is it that they do?"
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apatheismNice twist on a pair of words. I'm going to steal that and add to my lexicon. :)
Real world meaning: disregard, or lack of interest towards belief. In practice it is almost indistinguishable to atheism.
However it does have a subtle difference in the fact of not careing to believe. In which case the person could just be agnostic but doesn't have enough sense to care one way or the other.
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Okay, word-naming aside for people who don't believe in divinity (and I'm going to keep using the word atheist, because, you know, root 'godless' just works,) we know Golarion has atheists because we know they're an important part of the afterlife ecology... IE, they keep the moon from eating us. Can't rest in peace, Moon will eat me.
We know they exist. The campaign setting says they do.
The two-part question is "How do they exist in a world where divine magic manifests, and how believable is it that they do?"
I would say almost exactly like it is in the real world, though much more rare. In the real world people have religious experiences and "know" beyond the shadow of a doubt that there is something. At the same time, there are people that do not believe, and no matter how much evidence, wisdom, etc. . . either side shares, it is almost never going to change the other's mind. In a fantasy setting, those that do not believe are probably much, much more rare. To them, the rest of the world is wrong.
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Real world meaning: disregard, or lack of interest towards belief. In practice it is almost indistinguishable to atheism.However it does have a subtle difference in the fact of not careing to believe. In which case the person could just be agnostic but doesn't have enough sense to care one way or the other.
I've had some experience with agnostics that are far from atheistic. They had beliefs in things, but did not believe that they new enough to be exclusive. In this case, Christian, but also a little Bhuddist and new-agey-Hindu.
But we are not talking real life here. That would be better devoted to...To me it might be more interesting to ask how an Atheist deals with the evidence of the divine directly in front of him/her. To be honest we are talking about a place where the Gods exist. Period. Demons, devils, angels, miracles and divine power are fact. And there are folks around who can prove that fact. Maybe not commonplace, but they are common knowledge.
In our world we can argue for eons. In Golarion all one has to do is look to his left or right and see a companion that is a Paladin, Cleric, Oracle or Favored Soul. Hell, even Sorcerors, Bards and Wizards can be argued as evidence of the gods influence.
What I mean to say is that in such a world those who argue the non-existance of the Divine might look as strange to the common man as those who are Zeolots in our world. The Athar are a bit different as they are adventurers or Planar Travellers who deal with the Divine and their planes in a way that makes it acceptable to actually question the existance of the Gods as true divinity instead of transcended mortals.
Where I can see a person who might not care all that much about the Gods, (What can they have to do with growing crops, raising kids and paying taxes to the Lords?) I have trouble seeing a person who outright denies their existence. This might not the be the case at your table.
It isn't hard to see how people could deny their existence. Evolution is a fact. We see new species forming all the time (here is one source:
talkorigins). You don't even have to reach for any of the other forms of evidence (and there are mountains of evidence) which prove the fact of evolution. It is as obviously real as gravity, or earthquakes occurring because tectonic plates are moving around. And yet many people, probably most people in the United States don't believe evolution is real.
What CJ said.
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So in the fantastical world, any polytheistic one will do, the Gods are real, their presence is tangible, etc. Does an active atheist suffer consequences for their belief?
They get to spend eternity in the "Plane of Soothing Temperature Hot Tubs with Perfectly Placed Jets." I hate to see a good atheist suffer, even in fantasy.
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They get to spend eternity in the "Plane of Soothing Temperature Hot Tubs with Perfectly Placed Jets." I hate to see a good atheist suffer, even in fantasy.So in the fantastical world, any polytheistic one will do, the Gods are real, their presence is tangible, etc. Does an active atheist suffer consequences for their belief?
It could be worse, they could have the end that was listed in For Love of Evil Atheists just fade into nothingness just like they believe.
Actually, no, atheism is non-belief in the existence of the supernatural, of which deities are a part. While it can be argued what exactly that includes, that it the definition of atheism.
That's one definition of atheism, valid for the real world in which there are no gods (at least not in a way that is provable). This definition does not make sense for Golarion where anyone interested enough can see the influence of the gods, and might even ascend to become one himself.
There is actually much more evidence against evolution, which is mistakenly not a fact in the tradiotional meaning of the word. There is a difference between a fact and a scientific fact, and Evolution is the later. This makes for a good example of a real world religion though, for this topic. It is easy to see both ways how people can't see the other side of the arguement.
I'm not sure if you're just trolling here, but ... evidence against evolution? What?
Evolution is not a fact. It's just a very well-researched scientific theory that explains many things and against which there is no credible evidence. Your assertion that there is evidence against it doesn't make it so.
I would say almost exactly like it is in the real world, though much more rare. In the real world people have religious experiences and "know" beyond the shadow of a doubt that there is something.
The difference is that in Golarion, outside parties can witness the effect a Cure Light Wound spell of a cleric. In the real world, there is no such thing.
Or in other words, theology is a soft science in the real world, but in Golarion, it would very much be a hard science.
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There is actually much more evidence against evolution, which is mistakenly not a fact in the tradiotional meaning of the word. There is a difference between a fact and a scientific fact, and Evolution is the later. This makes for a good example of a real world religion though, for this topic. It is easy to see both ways how people can't see the other side of the arguement.
I'm not sure if you're just trolling here, but ... evidence against evolution? What?
Evolution is not a fact. It's just a very well-researched scientific theory that explains many things and against which there is no credible evidence. Your assertion that there is evidence against it doesn't make it so.
In science, a theory IS a fact. I'm not trolling as much as 1.) responding to the post before hand (which seems to have been deleted now), and 2.) saying the evolution is a good example of a "religion" to use comparitevly in a fantasy setting (vrs real world), because there is a large group of people that are both for and against it, for a variety of reasons. It is at it's heart based 100% on belief and potential (no one existed then to tell us if that is how it actually happened).
The difference is that in Golarion, outside parties can witness the effect a Cure Light Wound spell of a cleric. In the real world, there is no such thing.
Pfft. Even a bard can do that...
In science, a theory IS a fact.
Errr..no, it isn't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
I'm not trolling as much as 1.) responding to the post before hand and 2.) saying the evolution is a good example of a "religion" to use comparitevly in a fantasy setting (vrs real world), because there is a large group of people that are both for and against it, for a variety of reasons. It is at it's heart based 100% on belief and potential (no one existed then to tell us if that is how it actually happened).
But...that's just not true. It is specifically not based on belief. It's the logical conclusion that the world's brightest people came to after looking at the real world. And evolution is not a thing of the past, it can and has been observed even in our lifetimes, and not only once.
You might say "I do not believe in evolution", which is fine. But this is be the equivalent of a inhabitant of Golarion not believing in deities. Or a citizen of Waterdeep (Forgotten Realms) during the times of troubles.
The difference is that in Golarion, outside parties can witness the effect a Cure Light Wound spell of a cleric. In the real world, there is no such thing.Pfft. Even a bard can do that...
Haha. Ok let's take 'Mass Cure Serious Wounds', then.
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In science, a theory IS a fact.
Errr..no, it isn't. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
I'm not trolling as much as 1.) responding to the post before hand and 2.) saying the evolution is a good example of a "religion" to use comparitevly in a fantasy setting (vrs real world), because there is a large group of people that are both for and against it, for a variety of reasons. It is at it's heart based 100% on belief and potential (no one existed then to tell us if that is how it actually happened).But...that's just not true. It is specifically not based on belief. It's the logical conclusion that the world's brightest people came to after looking at the real world. And evolution is not a thing of the past, it can and has been observed even in our lifetimes, and not only once.
You might say "I do not believe in evolution", which is fine. But this is be the equivalent of a inhabitant of Golarion not believing in deities. Or a citizen of Waterdeep (Forgotten Realms) during the times of troubles.
My vote is that we have maybe five more posts till someone Godwins us all.
Isn't mentioning Godwin already sufficient for invoking Godwin? ;)