Called Shots


Homebrew and House Rules

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Hey, in the old days (1st -2nd edition) we would allow called shots to the head with like a -6 or -8 to attack (I can't recall). And I understand why called shots are not permitted, however...is there anyone out there that has made it work?


Saradoc wrote:
Hey, in the old days (1st -2nd edition) we would allow called shots to the head with like a -6 or -8 to attack (I can't recall). And I understand why called shots are not permitted, however...is there anyone out there that has made it work?

I created a feat chain that allowed called shots, with attack penalties based on the size of the area targeted. The results (specific to general areas like head, arm, leg, etc.) ramped up in effect with each feat and were controlled by BAB or sneak attack pre-reqs to mirror spell effects of wizards. Armor provides protection vs. called shots by applying the armor's hardness as a save bonus to the effects. I'll dig them up if you'd like...

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There's a called shot feat in PF core. Two of them, actually. You take penalties to hit in order to do greater damage, and it scales upward as your BAB goes upward.

Generally, most called shot schemes that are more complicated than that lead to Fallout-style silliness (where everyone attacks the eyes and groin exclusively), bog down the game terribly, and/or cause NPCs to horribly maim the PCs if the GM allows Team Monster to use them.


A Man In Black wrote:

There's a called shot feat in PF core. Two of them, actually. You take penalties to hit in order to do greater damage, and it scales upward as your BAB goes upward.

Generally, most called shot schemes that are more complicated than that lead to Fallout-style silliness (where everyone attacks the eyes and groin exclusively), bog down the game terribly, and/or cause NPCs to horribly maim the PCs if the GM allows Team Monster to use them.

I know called shots aren't for everyone, but simply doing more HP damage isn't the same. The various Critical feats are better, but are generally gained at such high levels as to be non-existent for many games. I've posted threads on it in the past, but the summary of my driver for the called shot systems is the deer hunter. He's not going to shoot the deer 3-5 times to kill it. He's going to shot it once and either disable it or kill it outright. It also gives armor like gauntlets, bracers, and helmets a reason to exist again beyond being wondrous magic items. Ultimately, seeing an epic battle that basically involves hacking at one another like chopping down a tree is unsatisfying and in some cases relegates the non-magical characters to second fiddle compared to the casters

Yes, in translation to RPGs this makes combat a heck of a lot more deadly but I'm okay with that--the answer to most challenges in my games is rarely "hit it 'til it dies."

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Indeed. You've changed it to "Poke it in the eyes until it dies." Replacing the normal attack with a called attack Fallout-style doesn't automatically make the game more exciting, it just means that when a purple worm pokes someone in the eye it one-shots them.

Sovereign Court

erian_7 wrote:
I've posted threads on it in the past, but the summary of my driver for the called shot systems is the deer hunter. He's not going to shoot the deer 3-5 times to kill it. He's going to shot it once and either disable it or kill it outright.

A simple solution would be to allow for a greater critical threat range with a greater difficulty to hit. No hunter shoots to "disable." Combat maneuvers cover disabling pretty well. If a called shot is intended to kill quickly, just up the damage rather than fiddling with locations and tracking who is taking a -8 to spot checks due to dust in the eyes.


A Man In Black wrote:
There's a called shot feat in PF core. Two of them, actually. You take penalties to hit in order to do greater damage, and it scales upward as your BAB goes upward.

Actually, there are even more than that. There's a called shot feat that allows you to blind an opponent (Blinding Called Shot), there's one that allows you to deafen an opponent (Defeaning Called Shot), there's one that allows you to stun an opponent (Stunning Called Shot), etc.* Of course, they only work some of the time; if you miss with the called shot, it becomes a normal hit.

*Note: Some copies of the rules may have a typo where "Called Shot" is replaced with "Critical".
**Oh, I see Erian made the same point.


Interesting stuff guys. Erian, your feat chain concept sounds interesting. If you can post it here for reference I'd love to see it.


Nebelwerfer41 wrote:
erian_7 wrote:
I've posted threads on it in the past, but the summary of my driver for the called shot systems is the deer hunter. He's not going to shoot the deer 3-5 times to kill it. He's going to shot it once and either disable it or kill it outright.
A simple solution would be to allow for a greater critical threat range with a greater difficulty to hit. No hunter shoots to "disable." Combat maneuvers cover disabling pretty well. If a called shot is intended to kill quickly, just up the damage rather than fiddling with locations and tracking who is taking a -8 to spot checks due to dust in the eyes.

That's actually one of the things I've been thinking on since PF came out with the Critical feats. The problem with upping the damage and not fiddling with locations is it misses the heart of the called shot that most folks looking for such rules want. Building from the Combat Maneuver could make the mechanics more streamlined and in-synch with PF. I want to have a character target a foe's head and "knock it silly", which might apply a penalty to certain mechanics at low level, stun at mid level, and knock unconscious at high level. That cannot be mirrored by simply applying more damage on a crit.

Oh, and by disable above, I mean that at times a hunter is not skilled enough to kill a deer straight out, but may be skilled enough to puncture a lung/artery/etc. in such a way that the deer expires after a short time. Of course, those not skilled enough let the deer run too much and then the resulting venison isn't worth eating, but that's more of a culinary discussion than a called shot discussion...

Saradoc, I'll start digging around for my notes/past posts on the forum.

A Man In Black wrote:
Indeed. You've changed it to "Poke it in the eyes until it dies." Replacing the normal attack with a called attack Fallout-style doesn't automatically make the game more exciting, it just means that when a purple worm pokes someone in the eye it one-shots them.

I should note that in my games, if a purple worm is cognizant enough to poke a character in the eye, I want it to one-shot the character. Luckily they aren't that smart usually. A dragon on the other hand...

Perhaps needless to say, but my version of d20 isn't everyone else's version of d20, and folks that like the basic HP system won't necessarily like my games. But I have definitely found that giving players viable melee tactics, both to use and to avoid, can make the game more fun. In this sense, I find Iron Heroes, Savage Worlds, etc. to be superior in many ways to d20. Now, my perspective comes after playing for 25+ years, so I do warn folks new to the concept that it drastically changes the way the game plays/feels. But for those that want this in their games and understand the impacts, working out a good PF called shot mechanic seems like a very worthy goal.


A Man In Black wrote:
Indeed. You've changed it to "Poke it in the eyes until it dies." Replacing the normal attack with a called attack Fallout-style doesn't automatically make the game more exciting, it just means that when a purple worm pokes someone in the eye it one-shots them.

I've never played Fallout; I'd compare it to the Car Wars strategy of "always shoot at the tires".


hogarth wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
Indeed. You've changed it to "Poke it in the eyes until it dies." Replacing the normal attack with a called attack Fallout-style doesn't automatically make the game more exciting, it just means that when a purple worm pokes someone in the eye it one-shots them.
I've never played Fallout; I'd compare it to the Car Wars strategy of "always shoot at the tires".

Which is why you upgrade to "puncture proof" tires as soon as possible!


erian_7 wrote:
hogarth wrote:
A Man In Black wrote:
Indeed. You've changed it to "Poke it in the eyes until it dies." Replacing the normal attack with a called attack Fallout-style doesn't automatically make the game more exciting, it just means that when a purple worm pokes someone in the eye it one-shots them.
I've never played Fallout; I'd compare it to the Car Wars strategy of "always shoot at the tires".
Which is why you upgrade to "puncture proof" tires as soon as possible!

The most completely bad-ass tires in Car Wars had 12 hit points, I think. That was like two hits from a rocket launcher, and then your tire was destroyed (not punctured, destroyed) and you were basically boned.

Maybe they changed the rules later on, but that was the state of things when I was playing.

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erian_7 wrote:
Which is why you upgrade to "puncture proof" tires as soon as possible!

Endless complexity for little gain. Keep in mind, one of the most common Car Wars rules is outlawing called shots. They punish cool things and encourage dumb ones.

Grand Lodge

I'm looking forward to testing my own variation of Monte Cook's Grace and Health system from Book of Experimental Might soon. One rule I was considering was a Bushwhack option that let a character deal damage straight to Health instead of Grace. I decided it was a little too good since everyone would be trying for it. It might work alright for you.


Never played Car Wars, so I wouldn't know on that one. That was just a one-off comment poking some fun. I would say, though, that if I were playing a game with cars battling one another, shooting out tires would indeed be a logical tactic I would expect, as would the counter of inventing puncture-proof tires, and then of course the escalation to shooting tires with rockets (why puncture with bullets when you can just blow the whole thing up). This all makes sense to me and I would want it in my game

Bottom line, some folks don't like/want called shots. That's okay. Some of us do like/want them. That's okay too. Going immediately to the "this is too complex/game breaking/fiddly/etc." is pointless for folks in the latter camp.


I, too, have long considered the notion of called shots, and I try to get my hands on any good ideas I can.

Here's my basic requirements:
1) A called shot should be doable by any character at any level.
2) A called shot should be a desireable option.
3) A called shot should NOT become an automatic solution to every battle.
4) To that end, a called shot should be both quite difficult and/or limiting AND sufficiently rewarding when successful.

Now...I'm not sure I've completely achieved that in my own games, evidenced by the fact that I'm always revising the mechanics. BUT, I may be pretty close to a good system that accomplishes all four points.

At any rate, I find that my players are generally pleased with it. They occasionally attempt called shots vs. generic hp attrition; they like the results when it succeeds, and they accept the difficulty when they try.

If there's interest, I'd be glad to share the details...

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erian_7 wrote:
Never played Car Wars, so I wouldn't know on that one. That was just a one-off comment poking some fun. I would say, though, that if I were playing a game with cars battling one another, shooting out tires would indeed be a logical tactic I would expect, as would the counter of inventing puncture-proof tires, and then of course the escalation to shooting tires with rockets (why puncture with bullets when you can just blow the whole thing up). This all makes sense to me and I would want it in my game

Then why do you have a bunch of suboptimal options? Just say that the durability of the tires is the durability of your car and be done with it.

If you allow called shots, then everyone's defense is equal to whatever the defense of their weakest spot is, and everyone swings for the weakest spot always. It's only interesting as long as the system is sufficiently obfuscated enough that nobody can tell what will happen if they attack a spot, in which case things are just super random and arbitrary.

I don't see how you're going to make a called-shot system that is still interesting after it is solved.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
I'm looking forward to testing my own variation of Monte Cook's Grace and Health system from Book of Experimental Might soon. One rule I was considering was a Bushwhack option that let a character deal damage straight to Health instead of Grace. I decided it was a little too good since everyone would be trying for it. It might work alright for you.

That's actually something else I've been working on--transforming HP into "fatigue" basically and making all physical wounds actually do ability damage/drain. It's a different mechanic from the called shots, but the two can work together. For this system, I'm actually considering that "stressful" combat actions like called shots might deal HP damage to the person attempting the action. I'm looking along the same lines for things like barbarian rage, bardic music, etc. so that these classes can use their abilities longer, but at the cost of HP.

Malachi Tarchannen wrote:

I, too, have long considered the notion of called shots, and I try to get my hands on any good ideas I can.

Here's my basic requirements:
1) A called shot should be doable by any character at any level.
2) A called shot should be a desireable option.
3) A called shot should NOT become an automatic solution to every battle.
4) To that end, a called shot should be both quite difficult and/or limiting AND sufficiently rewarding when successful.

Now...I'm not sure I've completely achieved that in my own games, evidenced by the fact that I'm always revising the mechanics. BUT, I may be pretty close to a good system that accomplishes all four points.

At any rate, I find that my players are generally pleased with it. They occasionally attempt called shots vs. generic hp attrition; they like the results when it succeeds, and they accept the difficulty when they try.

If there's interest, I'd be glad to share the details...

Your basic requirements are pretty much the same as mine, so I'd definitely like to see the system you've worked out!

A Man In Black wrote:

Then why do you have a bunch of suboptimal options? Just say that the durability of the tires is the durability of your car and be done with it.

If you allow called shots, then everyone's defense is equal to whatever the defense of their weakest spot is, and everyone swings for the weakest spot always. It's only interesting as long as the system is sufficiently obfuscated enough that nobody can tell what will happen if they attack a spot, in which case things are just super random and arbitrary.

I don't see how you're going to make a called-shot system that is still interesting after it is solved.

Because some of us like the options. The system has to be balanced in such a way (as noted with the "basic requirements") that it's not an auto-success. It's obvious you're not a fan of this mechanic, and as I've said I'm okay with that. However, I'm uncertain as to why you're trying to convince us not to have the discussion, when we are clearly aware of the challenges?


erian_7 wrote:
Malachi Tarchannen wrote:

I, too, have long considered the notion of called shots, and I try to get my hands on any good ideas I can.

Here's my basic requirements:
1) A called shot should be doable by any character at any level.
2) A called shot should be a desireable option.
3) A called shot should NOT become an automatic solution to every battle.
4) To that end, a called shot should be both quite difficult and/or limiting AND sufficiently rewarding when successful.

Now...I'm not sure I've completely achieved that in my own games, evidenced by the fact that I'm always revising the mechanics. BUT, I may be pretty close to a good system that accomplishes all four points.

At any rate, I find that my players are generally pleased with it. They occasionally attempt called shots vs. generic hp attrition; they like the results when it succeeds, and they accept the difficulty when they try.

If there's interest, I'd be glad to share the details...

Your basic requirements are pretty much the same as mine, so I'd definitely like to see the system you've worked out!

Likewise, I'd be interested in seeing it.

Personally I would add requirement #5 (maybe more like a suggestion):

5) The system should behave "reasonably" with regards to missed called shots (e.g. I don't think it's reasonable to have all missed called shots convert to normal hits and I don't think it's reasonable to have all missed called shots convert to normal misses -- "I just missed the vampire's heart, so my shot flew over his head?").

I'm sure there's a more elegant way to phrase it...

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erian_7 wrote:
Because some of us like the options. The system has to be balanced in such a way (as noted with the "basic requirements") that it's not an auto-success. It's obvious you're not a fan of this mechanic, and as I've said I'm okay with that. However, I'm uncertain as to why you're trying to convince us not to have the discussion, when we are clearly aware of the challenges?

Okay, here's a system.

Attack [vulnerable spot]: Normal chance to hit, normal damage, normal chance to crit
Attack [anywhere else]: -3 to hit, -4 damage, no chance to crit

Because a solved system is essentially that. Those are technically options.

Grand Lodge

erian_7 wrote:
That's actually something else I've been working on--transforming HP into "fatigue" basically and making all physical wounds actually do ability damage/drain. It's a different mechanic from the called shots, but the two can work together. For this system, I'm actually considering that "stressful" combat actions like called shots might deal HP damage to the person attempting the action. I'm looking along the same lines for things like barbarian rage, bardic music, etc. so that these classes can use their abilities longer, but at the cost of HP.

Wow, a real battle would take some time to heal up from on that one. XD I kinda like it, I may have to give it a try on a one-shot sometime.

You might look into Health and Grace, see if you like it. I term mine Health and Stamina. Stamina recovers after combat ends, Health as normal. Haven't decided if magic cures Health or Stamina first, or both equally. Health is HP from Con, Stamina is HP from class. I didn't go with the Bushwhack option because anyone getting it would most likely oneshot the victim. And it wouldn't be fair to use that on the PCs with closet troll monsters.


Called Shot

A called shot is a special full-round attack action that provokes attacks of opportunity, and must be announced before attempted. A DC 20 Concentration check is required (Ed: sorry, I'm still using v3.5 for now), and the DC increases by the amount of any damage taken during the round. Failing the Concentration check prevents you from making a successful called shot, but you may still take one normal attack.

If the Concentration check is a success, make an attack roll as normal (with a -10 penalty) to hit your target’s normal AC, or a minimum AC 18 (base 10, +8 for Fine size). Additional cumulative modifiers to the attack roll include the following: -5 if target is moving; -5 if target is in melee combat.

Melee: A successful melee called shot grants a number of options:

  • Deliver a specific injury to the targeted body part (details at DM's discretion). Your attack roll is considered an automatic critical hit, and you multiply your damage according to the weapon used. If the attack roll was a natural 20, increase the critical multiplier by 1.
  • Sunder the target’s weapon. Your attack roll is considered an automatic critical hit, and you multiply the damage dealt to the weapon accordingly. If the attack roll was a natural 20, increase the critical multiplier by 1.
  • Disarm the target of any item it carries. You gain a +10 bonus on your roll to disarm the target of a weapon or item. If the target is wearing a locked gauntlet, the gauntlet takes damage as if you had targeted it specifically.
  • Remove the target’s clothing or armor. If you wield a slashing or piercing weapon, you automatically sever the straps of the target’s armor or shield, causing it to be less effective by 2 points (and at 0 AC it falls off). You can also cause one article of clothing to fall off, break the straps of a backpack, sever a rope, or other similar result.

Ranged: A successful ranged called shot grants a number of options:

  • Deliver a specific injury to the targeted body part. Your attack roll is considered an automatic critical hit, and you multiply your damage according to the weapon used. If the attack roll was a natural 20, increase the critical multiplier by 1.
  • Sunder the target’s weapon. If you are within 30 feet of your opponent, your attack roll is considered an automatic critical hit, and you multiply the damage dealt to the weapon accordingly. If the attack roll was a natural 20, increase the critical multiplier by 1.
  • Disarm the target of any item it wears or carries. If you are within 30 feet of your opponent, you gain a +10 bonus on your combat maneuver check to disarm the target of a weapon or item. (A ranged called shot does not damage a locked gauntlet.)
  • Pin the target to a nearby surface. The target must be within 5 feet of a wall, tree, or other surface in which a thrown weapon or projectile can be stuck. You gain a +10 bonus on your combat maneuver check to pin the target (a grapple attempt). You can pin him by his clothing, armor, or other accoutrement, or you can pin him bodily through any body part except his head or torso. (If you pin him bodily, you deal only normal damage.) To break free, the target must make a DC 15 Strength check or a DC 15 Escape check as a standard action.

Extra damage from abilities such as a rogue’s sneak attack may be applied with a called shot. You can still deliver a called shot against a creature that is immune to critical hits, such as a golem, but you don’t inflict extra damage. You can’t deliver a called shot against a creature with total concealment or total cover.

While this is my current working mechanic, I would greatly appreciate y'alls critique.


A Man In Black wrote:

Okay, here's a system.

Attack [vulnerable spot]: Normal chance to hit, normal damage, normal chance to crit
Attack [anywhere else]: -3 to hit, -4 damage, no chance to crit

Because a solved system is essentially that. Those are technically options.

I'm not sure I see how this relates to us defining a system for called shots in PF, or to my question as to why you want us to stop having the discussion?

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Wow, a real battle would take some time to heal up from on that one. XD I kinda like it, I may have to give it a try on a one-shot sometime.

You might look into Health and Grace, see if you like it. I term mine Health and Stamina. Stamina recovers after combat ends, Health as normal. Haven't decided if magic cures Health or Stamina first, or both equally. Health is HP from Con, Stamina is HP from class. I didn't go with the Bushwhack option because anyone getting it would most likely oneshot the victim. And it wouldn't be fair to use that on the PCs with closet troll monsters.

Yes indeed--taking physical damage, however, is something i want to take a long time using this system (as noted earlier, I discourage combat as the answer to every challenge). However, it's also more difficult to damage someone unless they fight beyond thir general limits (i.e. until HP are really low, physical damage only comes from things liked called shots and critical hits). Lesser restoration becomes a much more important spell, and low-level clerics can no heal the villages of major injuries.

I haven't seen the BoXM material, but I'll check it out. Sounds similar in nature to the Star Wars and Iron Heroes systems.


Malachi Tarchannen wrote:
Deliver a specific injury to the targeted body part (details at DM's discretion).

Without knowing the "DM's discretion" part (instant death? stunned for 1d100 rounds? -1 on Perception checks?), it's hard to say how good/bad the rules are. One thing I noticed is that True Strike helps your success chances a lot.

I'm not sure why you added Sunder and Disarm results; I guess they're like super-Sunder and super-Disarm if you do them as a called shot.

Grand Lodge

So for the cost of a standard action the previous round, I can make a called shot at no penalty. :P
True Strike

Damn you Hogarth.

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Malachi Tarchannen wrote:

Called Shot

A called shot is a special full-round attack action that provokes attacks of opportunity, and must be announced before attempted. A DC 20 Concentration check is required (Ed: sorry, I'm still using v3.5 for now), and the DC increases by the amount of any damage taken during the round. Failing the Concentration check prevents you from making a successful called shot, but you may still take one normal attack.

The Concentration check is baffling; why are spellcasters better at shooting people in the eye?

The melee rules mean that monsters with concentration ranks or really high con just kill PCs dead, since they get reach and PCs generally don't. It also means that swarms of dudes with concentration ranks (rare, I suppose) kill PCs dead.

In fact, the whole system pretty much kills PCs dead. It's impossible for melee PCs to safely use, doesn't work on anything that matters due to the absolutely gobsmacking penalties, and the payoffs are marginal. On the other hand, NPCs can more easily bypass the restrictions, tend to have lots of extra room to hit if they are bruisers, and often have the HP to absorb an AoO or two.

So basically very occasionally monsters move up and stab the PCs in the eyes and scramble their brains, but the PCs get themselves killed trying to do it back.

At range, you're almost always better off just doing your normal thing. I suppose if you're shooting a very low AC target with a crossbow (or a bow with no Rapid Shot or iteratives) you're better off calling shots.

Hey, you know who has a bow and high Concentration? Cleric archers. And they sure do need more buffs, yep!

Interesting side effect: it's really easy to strip people wearing clothing nude at about level 5. And the PCs will totally realize this. This is a game derailer.


A Man In Black wrote:
The melee rules mean that monsters with concentration ranks or really high con just kill PCs dead, since they get reach and PCs generally don't. It also means that swarms of dudes with concentration ranks (rare, I suppose) kill PCs dead.

An automatic critical hit as a full-round action with -20 to hit doesn't really "kill PCs dead" (unless you have a lot of monsters running around with x4 crit weapons). Now the "DM's discretion" part might, but who knows?

Another note: the proposed system doesn't address my suggestion #5 (i.e., it doesn't explain why aiming for the heart means that you'll completely miss the rest of the body).


Hogarth,
DM's discretion is just that--his discretion. If the DM finds that "instant death" is a good way to handle the called shot, then it's fine. But I doubt many DMs would go that route. While that phrase allows for much variation, I generally say stuff like, "if he target's an eye, then that eye is blind; if he targets a leg, then the target takes a -10 penalty to base speed...etc." You know, something rewarding for the player but not completely destructive to the battle at hand. **Incidentally, "DM's discretion CAN be the most feared phrase of all. I don't find it too troublesome, myself.

TriOmegaZero,
I understand the countering effect of True Strike. However, consider the following:
The wizard in the party doesn't usually stock up on a whole bunch of True Strike spells in lieu of Magic Missile, Sleep, Identify, Charm Person, and other staple 1st-level spells. This is because True Strike can be cast ONLY by a wizard and ONLY on himself. If the wizard really wants to stand still for a full round and size up a called shot (albeit at a +20 bonus to hit from the spell), then I say let him. He's in for a nasty surprise if he doesn't outright kill his target. That's not a trade-off many wizards are willing to make.

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hogarth wrote:
An automatic critical hit as a full-round action doesn't really "kill PCs dead". Now the "DM's discretion" part might, but who knows?

It does when it's a level-appropriate foe with a x3 or x4 weapon. At level 10, that's 75-125 damage easily.

Malachi Tarchannen wrote:
That's not a trade-off many wizards are willing to make.

But it's totally a trade-off a monster who casts spells as a sorcerer or wizard is willing to make, especially when they can afford to Quicken it.

Grand Lodge

Malachi Tarchannen wrote:
This is because True Strike can be cast ONLY by a wizard and ONLY on himself.

Wand of True Strike. Use Magic Device. OH SHI-

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More stuff:

  • Eternal arguing about anatomy. "I make a called shot to shoot through his eye into his brain." Does that deserve an extra effect? Why or why not?
  • As with any auto-crit, everyone breaks out the picks. Dumb enough that people carry them for CDGs...
  • No other mechanic I can think of checks to see if someone moved last turn. That's really obscure, and easy to forget especially for a harried GM.


  • Man in Black,
    Thus far, whether intended or not, your tone is coming off a bit condescending. I trust you're only trying to be helpful.

    That said, I don't think you have a proper understanding of the Concentration skill. Perhaps you are referring to the fact that only certain classes (in 3.x) consider it a class-skill, and thus will not have many ranks in it, if any. Yes, spellcasters will likely have lots of ranks (for spellcasting purposes), but they are not the only classes with reason to use the skill.

    At any rate, your contention that this makes it easy for monsters to kill the PCs but not vice versa is puzzling to me. Why wouldn't it work equally for both sides? The examples you gave did little to help explain your position.

    And if the players are more interested in stripping people nude than they are in playing D&D, then there are larger issues at stake than the mechanics of a called shot.

    To Hogarth,
    Your #5 wasn't overlooked...just not answered yet. And perhaps it should have been.

    #5) If the attack roll for a called shot misses the targeted area/item, but is sufficient to hit the target normally, treat it as a normal attack. Likewise, if the called shot attack roll is a natural 1, it is an automatic miss, as normal.

    I'm not certain how else this could be handled.


    A Man In Black wrote:
    hogarth wrote:
    An automatic critical hit as a full-round action doesn't really "kill PCs dead". Now the "DM's discretion" part might, but who knows?
    It does when it's a level-appropriate foe with a x3 or x4 weapon. At level 10, that's 75-125 damage easily.

    Sorry, let me rephrase myself. It doesn't really "kill PCs dead" any more than a normal full attack while power attacking for 10-20 points (the equivalent of the -10 to -20 penalty for the called shot).


    Well, I asked for critique, and I'm getting it. There certainly are opportunities for abuse, which can be said for nearly every rule and/or rule exception in the game. But as is true for anything, the abuse of it doesn't mean the thing itself is bad.

    Do the critiques y'all are voicing stem from an inner loathing of called shots in general, or a genuine note of caution concerning it? I ask because, as has been pointed out, some folks really do like the concept of called shots, but they don't want it getting out of hand.

    The system I devised has been playtested by my various groups for nearly 5 years, and has undergone many revisions to get it where it is now. That doesn't mean it's yet perfect, and that's why I submitted it to you.

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    Malachi Tarchannen wrote:

    At any rate, your contention that this makes it easy for monsters to kill the PCs but not vice versa is puzzling to me. Why wouldn't it work equally for both sides? The examples you gave did little to help explain your position.

    And if the players are more interested in stripping people nude than they are in playing D&D, then there are larger issues at stake than the mechanics of a called shot.

    Because monsters get more edge cases than PCs. Eventually you're going to find some spellcaster or high-con monster that moves in groups that can make the concentration check. Like I said, very occasionally Team Monster will have the eye-stabber but the PCs won't get that because anything they can hit with a called shot is trivial or helpless anyway. -15 penalties to hit just aren't workable for PCs.

    As for stripping people naked, it's going to occur pretty quickly to PCs that called shots don't work on people with actual AC (for example, armor) or weapons. Instead, it only works on people who are just wearing clothes and aren't armed. And with that in mind, they have two options for melee called shots: strip people naked or stab them in the eye.

    There is a use for PCs, though. It's very useful for extreme-range shots from spellcasters only where you're fishing for a nat 20 anyway. There's no cost to doing it and it saves you confirming the crit. Plus, it gets you a random extra effect based on how well you can sweet-talk your GM.

    Let's set aside the grousing about your implementation, and get to generalities. Crits are bad for PCs. Critting more in general punishes the PCs worse than the NPCs because the NPCs never go bust. There's always more NPCs. But adding more random spikey damage means that PCs go bust more often and die, and until a certain level that's game over. Plus, it's often an anticlimactic, random game over, on dumb stuff.

    Making the game deadlier just kills more PCs.

    hogarth wrote:
    Sorry, let me rephrase myself. It doesn't really "kill PCs dead" any more than a normal full attack while power attacking for 10-20 points (the equivalent of the -10 to -20 penalty for the called shot).

    Most things cannot power attack for 20+.


    Malachi Tarchannen wrote:

    Hogarth,

    DM's discretion is just that--his discretion. If the DM finds that "instant death" is a good way to handle the called shot, then it's fine. But I doubt many DMs would go that route. While that phrase allows for much variation, I generally say stuff like, "if he target's an eye, then that eye is blind; if he targets a leg, then the target takes a -10 penalty to base speed...etc." You know, something rewarding for the player but not completely destructive to the battle at hand. **Incidentally, "DM's discretion CAN be the most feared phrase of all. I don't find it too troublesome, myself.

    O.K. Using that as a baseline, I probably wouldn't use the called shot rules in combat (the -20 penalty combined with provoking an attack of opportunity is too much, IMO). I might use it if I had a sniper character (especially one with access to True Strike), but sniper duels aren't very fun, in my experience. ("You're walking down the street...and you lose an eye. Roll initiative!")

    And frankly I can't think of any circumstance where I would try to reduce an enemy's movement by 10 ft instead of blinding him or stunning him or whatever. Making a guy limp gets style points, I suppose.


    TriOmegaZero wrote:
    Malachi Tarchannen wrote:
    This is because True Strike can be cast ONLY by a wizard and ONLY on himself.
    Wand of True Strike. Use Magic Device. OH SHI-

    Honestly, this could be a problem, if it weren't for the fact that this combination requires two rounds of actions (one to use the wand and one to make the called shot). In my experience, I have found that most players are not willing to give up two rounds' worth of actions for a single called shot (even if "automatic"). Especially when the PCs obtain iterative attacks, the trade-off increases...they start calculating that multiple normal attacks often do more damage than a single called shot. The reason remaining for making the called shot becomes less about extra damage and more about the side effect (blindness, gimpness, etc.).

    Grand Lodge

    It's just the first thing that jumps to mind. It's viable, and in some situations may be very desirable.


    A Man In Black wrote:

    Let's set aside the grousing about your implementation, and get to generalities. Crits are bad for PCs. Critting more in general punishes the PCs worse than the NPCs because the NPCs never go bust. There's always more NPCs. But adding more random spikey damage means that PCs go bust more often and die, and until a certain level that's game over. Plus, it's often an anticlimactic, random game over, on dumb stuff.

    Making the game deadlier just kills more PCs.

    I understand. As a DM myself (for 10 years), I have had little desire to inflict this upon the players, but I have enjoyed giving them this option. Perhaps another DM will take the opportunity to inact multiple called shots against the player's characters "just because that's what they would do...all the time." I do not, and so maybe the system I devised reflects my own desire to see the PCs gain the advantage.

    To Hogarth,
    The penalties might be overly stiff, I admit. That is what I've settled on over a few years of playtesting this. Yes, it dissuades some players from ever trying it, but when you've got a fighter that's +20 on his first attack (not hard to achieve even at mid-level) versus a creature with AC 20...well, it's too dang easy to hit him. So taking a -15 penalty to hit means he must roll a 15, but the payoff is an auto-critical and something debilitating...some fighters will take that chance.


    hogarth wrote:
    And frankly I can't think of any circumstance where I would try to reduce an enemy's movement by 10 ft instead of blinding him or stunning him or whatever. Making a guy limp gets style points, I suppose.

    We see in movies all the time where someone "hamstrings" his opponent. There must a reason for doing that. At the least, it impedes his ability to chase you or to run away himself.

    As for "style points," I've seen many examples of this, but perhaps the most famous is the veritable series of called shots Inigo Montoya made against the six-fingered man--belly, left arm, cheek, cheek--paying wound for wound before finally killing him. That's style!

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    Malachi Tarchannen wrote:
    The penalties might be overly stiff, I admit. That is what I've settled on over a few years of playtesting this. Yes, it dissuades some players from ever trying it, but when you've got a fighter that's +20 on his first attack (not hard to achieve even at mid-level) versus a creature with AC 20...well, it's too dang easy to hit him. So taking a -15 penalty to hit means he must roll a 15, but the payoff is an auto-critical and something debilitating...some fighters will take that chance.

    So you want the players to be able to trade off to-hit in order to do extra damage.

    :|


    A Man In Black wrote:
    Malachi Tarchannen wrote:
    The penalties might be overly stiff, I admit. That is what I've settled on over a few years of playtesting this. Yes, it dissuades some players from ever trying it, but when you've got a fighter that's +20 on his first attack (not hard to achieve even at mid-level) versus a creature with AC 20...well, it's too dang easy to hit him. So taking a -15 penalty to hit means he must roll a 15, but the payoff is an auto-critical and something debilitating...some fighters will take that chance.

    So you want the players to be able to trade off to-hit in order to do extra damage.

    :|

    You're really oversimplifying this, and I believe with intent.

    Look, if you don't like the whole concept of called shots, which is obvious from both your tone and the content of your replies, then please don't ever implement it in any of your campaigns. I'd hate to think that I was somehow indirectly responsible for the ruination of either your campaign or your enjoyment of it.

    But please, if you want to actually help me be successful at implementing this in my own campaigns--or, more directly, to answer the OP's question: "Has anyone out there made this work?"--then provide a little assistance.

    A part of my design is to reward extra damage for fewer attacks; otherwise, there would be no incentive to attempt a called shot. Beyond that, it rewards the difficulty of success with a "debilitating effect" according to what was targeted. Heck, sometimes blinding them isn't a desired effect, but pinning them to the wall might be. It might be more desirable to disarm them of their shield, or puncture their voicebox, or hamstring them, or any number of other possibilities than merely dish out another round of damage. And yes, lecherous PCs might wish to disrobe the beautiful wizardess villain before making mincemeat of her.

    The larger point of my proposed system (given in answer to the OP's call for help) is to provide a way to handle the mechanics of this option. I understand there may be flaws inherent in the design, but by posting it here I am trying to help the OP (and others who are interested in the concept). If you don't want to help, then kindly don't attempt to make us feel stupid for trying.

    RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

    I am skeptical of called-shot mechanics, because they tend to fall into one of four categories: tradeoffs for extra damage, random status effect lottery, naked powerups for anyone who says "I shoot the blinding red spot," or traps. Perhaps someone will come up with a system that isn't needlessly complex for low payoff, but I haven't seen it yet.

    Now, I am critical of your system because it is has some very serious problems. Your mechanics, at their heart, are "Trade off a gobsmacking to-hit penalty and set some skill ranks on fire and also manipulate the AoO system in order to get an extremely variable amount of extra damage and also whatever other benefit you can beg from the GM." That's not good design for a variety of reasons. Your system just plain doesn't work.

    Malachi Tarchannen wrote:
    Beyond that, it rewards the difficulty of success with a "debilitating effect" according to what was targeted.

    Make a system, or you're just asking for players to say "I shoot him in the spine," "I shoot him in the jugular," etc. You're handwaving the only interesting part of your suggestions.

    Get rid of the autocrit nonsense and the -15 to hit. That's not an option any more than dual-wielding without TWF is an "option". It's an "option" to roll for natural 20 magic BBs if you've invested a pile of skill ranks in a dump skill. Bleagh. Also, get rid of the sunder and disarm silliness. The normal combat maneuvers handle that reasonably enough.

    Now, figure out a reasonable way to balance penalties against status effects, and make actual written rules for it so it's something other than an attack that only works if you can sweettalk the GM.

    Consider that you risk taking away the one cool thing about the monk, because he trades off melee capability 100% of the time in order to be able to stun people for a turn. Is stepping on the monk's toes worth it?


    Had to drop off for a bit to do "real work" but I was able to do some forum searching in the interim. I didn't turn up my old post, but this thread that covers a lot of the debate on called shots (including SKR's well-developed thoughts on the topic).

    So, rebuilding mine from an older post over on Mythweavers (this one needs some work, as it was my attempt before PF)...It does remind me of another thing I like about a called shot system--there's actually a reason to have the regenerate spell!

    Called Shot [Combat]
    You are skilled in making precise strikes with your favored weapon.
    Prerequisites: Weapon Focus, BAB +5 or sneak attack +3d6
    Benefit: As a full-round action, when attacking with a weapon in which you have Weapon Focus you may target a specific area of your opponents body. This attack suffers a penalty depending on the size variance between the foe and the targeted area. A successful attack deals damage as normal and may have an additional effect depending on the targeted area:

    Area Targeted (standard size variance): Effect/ Recovery
    Head (three steps): Dazed for 1 round per 5 points of damage/1 point of magical curing
    Eye or Ear (four steps): Blinded or Deafened in one organ (permanent)/Remove Blindness/Deafness
    Torso (one step): Shaken for 1 round per 5 points of damage/1 point of magical curing
    Arm (two steps): -2 penalty on all checks using affected arm/1 point of magical curing, Treat Injury DC 15, or after 24 hours pass
    Hand (three steps): -6 penalty on all checks using affected hand; cannot hold an item/1 point of magical curing, Treat Injury DC 15, or after 24 hours pass
    Leg (two steps): -5’ penalty to movement/1 point of magical curing, Treat Injury DC 15, or after 24 hours pass
    Foot (three steps): Speed reduced by one-half; cannot charge or run/1 point of magical curing, Treat Injury DC 15, or after 24 hours pass

    A successful Fortitude save (DC 5 + damage dealt) negates the additional effect.

    Special: Creatures that are not subject to critical hits or do not take additional damage from precision-based attacks, such as sneak attack, are immune to called shots.
    Armor covering the specific area targeted provides a bonus to the saving throw versus the effect of the called shot equal to the hardness of the armor. A helmet provides this protection for the head, gauntlets/bracers provide this protection to hands and arms respectively, and boots/greaves provide this protection to feet and legs respectively. Damage reduction provides a similar bonus equal to its value unless the attack overcomes the DR.

    Called Shot, Improved [Combat]
    Prerequisites: Called Shot, BAB +11 or sneak attack +6d6
    Benefit: Your Called Shot may have improved results (at your discretion), as in the following table. You may choose this effect or a lesser effect but must do so before making the attack roll.

    Area Targeted: Effect/Damage Recovery
    Head: Confused for 1 round per 5 points of damage/10+ points of magical curing
    Eye or Ear: Blinded or Deafened in one organ (permanent)/Regenerate
    Torso :Stunned for 1 round per 5 points of damage/10+ points of magical curing
    Arm :-4 penalty on all checks using affected arm/10 points of magical curing, Treat Injury DC 25, or after 24 hours of bed rest
    Hand: -12 penalty on all checks using affected hand; cannot hold an item/10 points of magical curing, Treat Injury DC 25, or after 24 hours of bed rest
    Leg: -10 penalty to movement/10 points of magical curing, Treat Injury DC 25, or after 24 hours of bed rest
    Foot: Speed reduced to one-quarter; cannot charge or run/10 points of magical curing, Treat Injury DC 25, or after 24 hours of bed rest

    A successful Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) reduces the enhanced effect to the standard Called Shot effect (or negates the additional effect if you chose to use the lesser effect).

    Called Shot, Greater [Combat]
    Prerequisites: Improved Called Shot, BAB +17 or sneak attack +9d6
    Benefit: Your Called Shot may have improved results (at your discretion), as in the following table. You may choose this effect or a lesser effect but must do so before making the attack roll.

    Area Targeted: Effect/Damage Recovery
    Head: Unconscious (Reduced to -9 HP and Stable)/10+ points of magical curing
    Eye or Ear: Dead/Raise Dead or similar
    Torso: Paralyzed/Regenerate
    Arm: Appendage severed/Regenerate
    Hand: Appendage severed/Regenerate
    Leg: Appendage severed/Regenerate
    Foot: Appendage severed/Regenerate

    A successful Fortitude save (DC 15 + damage dealt) reduces the enhanced effect to the Improved Called Shot effect (or negates the additional effect if you chose to use the Called Shot effect).

    Attack Penalty by Size Variance*
    One Step Smaller: -1
    Two Steps Smaller: -2
    Three Steps Smaller: -4
    Four Steps Smaller: -8

    * Penalties are doubled if the target is aware of the attack and can actively defend itself.

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