One of my players is wanting to play something like a Roman legionnaire: He fights behind a frickin' portable wall (tower shield), and starts the combat throwing javelins, before moving in with a stabbing short-sword.
Needless to say, this doesn't work well when it stacks up against a more conventional fighter build.
He'd like to be able to use an actual historical tactic. The Romans threw javelins called pilums, which had an elongated shaft (more shortspear length than javelin length), and had the head attached to the shaft with a lead or soft brass pin.
When it hit a shield, it imbedded itself deep, and usually the pin broke, which meant that your shield just got 2 lbs heavier. Do this enough times, and your shield doesn't move terribly well.
My current thinking is that this is probably best simulated with the sunder mechanics, and maybe a special kind of shortspear that allows it to be used as a ranged sunder attack against shields only.
Opinions?
I think I'd handle it something like this.
Pilum (Martial Weapon, Ranged)
Cost: 3gp Weight: 2lbs
Dmg (S): 1d4 Dmg (M): 1d6 Critical: x2
Range: 20ft
Type: P
Special: If thrown at a target with a shield and the attack misses by no more than the shield bonus of the target, the target's shield acquires the broken status.
Basically, a javelin that requires training to use, is more expensive and has a shorter range, but has a chance to take a shield out.
The Romans threw javelins called pilums, which had an elongated shaft (more shortspear length than javelin length), and had the head attached to the shaft with a lead or soft brass pin.
My brother is a re-enactor with the 20th legion. The pilum generally had one of these two head configurations.
The bit about shearing wooden pins applies only to pila from about 100BC. Gaius Marius is credited with the design. However, while there do seem to be pilum heads with simple flat tangs which would function as the story says, on many of the surviving pilum heads from this era, the tang edges are bent to form flanges which wrap around the wooden junction block, preventing them from moving if one rivet is sheared.
However, in both socketed and tanged head designs, the soft iron behind the actual cutting part of the head is a thin rod where the shaft would bend. If the pilum had glanced off armor or shield it would likely be somewhat bent, reducing the chance of the enemy hurling it back. If it struck the shield and penetrated, the long thin rod would allow the head to protrude a rather long way before the thicker wooden part stopped on the shield face, perhaps wounding the man behind the shield. The weight of the wooden pilum shaft would bend the thin rod down, making it difficult to remove from the shield.
I'd add to the above suggestion that the pilum be given a smaller range increment (they were shorter ranged that conventional javelins due to the weight and doctrine was that they were to be thrown just before charge impact) and that they automatically get the "broken" condition if thrown.
Edit: Spelling and plurals/
The problem with recreating the effects of pila is that this is a fantasy game, so you have things like steel shields and giants. Having it hit and automatically destroying or removing a shield bonus is a bit overpowered.
Also, the primary purpose of a pilum was not to render a shield useless, but to kill. Therefore, I'd use some of the suggestions others have put forward, modified slightly:
Pilum (Cost: 3gp, Weight: 7lbs., Dmg(S): 1d4, Dmg(M): 1d6, Critical: ×3, Range: 20ft., Type: P)
Whenever a pilum is used as a ranged attack against a target carrying a shield, and the attack misses by a number no greater than the shield bonus, the pilum instead strikes the shield, dealing damage normally to the object. If the pilum deals at least 1 point of damage to the shield, the weapon becomes affixed, weighing the shield down and adding the pilum's weight to the target's encumbrance.
Due to the pilum's awkward leverage while hanging affixed from a shield, the target's Strength score is considered 1 less for purposes of determining his encumbrance. This effect is cumulative. In addition, if the target holding the shield is Medium-sized or smaller, an affixed pilum adds a +5 circumstance bonus to attempts to disarm the shield, due to the ability for an opponent to step on the dangling weapon, sweep it aside, or otherwise use it as leverage against the opponent's shield arm.
Removing an affixed pilum is a full-round action and requires a DC 10 + damage dealt Strength check.
When thrown, a pilum's iron shank might bend due to its thinness. Anytime a pilum is thrown, there is a 40% chance it will gain the broken condition, whether the attack is successful or not. This percentage is increased by 10% for each point of damage rolled on a successful hit.
****************************
I increased the crit modifier by 1 to reflect how much longer the shank is than the tip of a regular javelin (thus allowing for deeper wounds). Also, it helps justify the increased cost and lower range of the weapon. The rules regarding the shield are now more in keeping with historical representation, since the weapon becoming affixed to shields was just a happy coincidence. The idea of the pilum's shank bending was designed so the weapon could not be picked up and thrown back.
The new rules on how it affects shields is more in keeping with historical purpose as well. Pila could be used to disrupt charges, as the javelin weighed the warriors down (represented here by increasing the target's load and reducing his speed), and they had to stop to remove them (represented here by taking at least 1 full-round action), or simply discard them (always a dangerous and foolhardy option).
When it hit a shield, it imbedded itself deep, and usually the pin broke, which meant that your shield just got 2 lbs heavier. Do this enough times, and your shield doesn't move terribly well.
My current thinking is that this is probably best simulated with the sunder mechanics, and maybe a special kind of shortspear that allows it to be used as a ranged sunder attack against shields only.
Opinions?
To steal one of the ideas in this thread:
Pilum (Martial Weapon, Ranged)
Cost: 3gp Weight: 2lbs
Dmg (S): 1d4 Dmg (M): 1d6 Critical: x2
Range: 20ft
Type: P
Special: Instead of trying to damage a creature with a pilum, the thrower can instead attempt to weaken the target's shield. The thrower makes a ranged touch attack against an opponent with the target's armor bonus from a shield added to its touch AC. If successful, this attack destroys the pilum, and any sunder attempts against the target's shield gain a +2 bonus. This bonus stacks with itself, and multiple pilums can greatly weaken a shield.
On a related question
Is banded mail the equivalent of Lorica segmentata, or would half plate/plate-mail be a better representative?
The Greek Linothorax which is probably made of layers of laminated linen, I tend to make the equivalent of studded leather do you think this is about right?
I'd make a Lorica be 'banded mail'. Half plate and full plate require some metallurgical tricks to make happen that the Romans only sort of had.
The Linothorax would be leather armor, not studded, which has small coin sized 'squash rivets' on a boiled leather substrate to break up the cut from a sword.
We eventually went with Hank Woon's pilum, with the additional caveat that the pilum's damage had to exceed the hardness of the shield material (5 for wood, 10 for steel, 15 for Mithral and 20 for adamant.)
We eventually went with Hank Woon's pilum, with the additional caveat that the pilum's damage had to exceed the hardness of the shield material (5 for wood, 10 for steel, 15 for Mithral and 20 for adamant.)
Indeed! That's actually how I intended in my rules above with "if it deals at least 1 point of damage" (since if it doesn't overcome the hardness, it doesn't deal damage). This is also how I came up with the break-chance percentage (if it affixes to a wooden shield, the lowest hardness, it is a 100% chance of breaking). =)
The problem with recreating the effects of pila is that this is a fantasy game, so you have things like steel shields and giants. Having it hit and automatically destroying or removing a shield bonus is a bit overpowered.
Also, the primary purpose of a pilum was not to render a shield useless, but to kill. Therefore, I'd use some of the suggestions others have put forward, modified slightly:
Pilum (Cost: 3gp, Weight: 7lbs., Dmg(S): 1d4, Dmg(M): 1d6, Critical: ×3, Range: 20ft., Type: P)
Whenever a pilum is used as a ranged attack against a target carrying a shield, and the attack misses by a number no greater than the shield bonus, the pilum instead strikes the shield, dealing damage normally to the object. If the pilum deals at least 1 point of damage to the shield, the weapon becomes affixed, weighing the shield down and adding the pilum's weight to the target's encumbrance.
Due to the pilum's awkward leverage while hanging affixed from a shield, the target's Strength score is considered 1 less for purposes of determining his encumbrance. This effect is cumulative. In addition, if the target holding the shield is Medium-sized or smaller, an affixed pilum adds a +5 circumstance bonus to attempts to disarm the shield, due to the ability for an opponent to step on the dangling weapon, sweep it aside, or otherwise use it as leverage against the opponent's shield arm.
Removing an affixed pilum is a full-round action and requires a DC 10 + damage dealt Strength check.
When thrown, a pilum's iron shank might bend due to its thinness. Anytime a pilum is thrown, there is a 40% chance it will gain the broken condition, whether the attack is successful or not. This percentage is increased by 10% for each point of damage rolled on a successful hit.
****************************
I increased the crit modifier by 1 to reflect how much longer the shank is than the tip of a regular javelin (thus allowing for deeper wounds). Also, it helps justify...
What he said.
BTW, you are a genius.
The party's barbarian threw a pair of hand axes, declaring the opponent's shield as the target.
I figure it's a fair call. He's not trying to sunder, merely making an attack against this shield fighter's main weapon/defensive piece.
it's a small object (+1ac) and I added the foes Dx modifier (+3) for a 14 AC. I also added the opponent's dodge bonuses as well (another +2)
16 AC was waaaay too easy a shot for the raging barbarian, especially with the bardic performance going on in the background. In short, the shield took enough damage to gain the broken condition, and with two handaxes stuck to the shield, it gains an extra 4lbs of weight.
The mechanics already exist to do what you are looking for. a simple addendum to the weapon (perhaps +2 to damage vs wooden shields and a 50% chance of sticking) would be all you needed to add to a javelin/pilum
Batts
What he said.
BTW, you are a genius.
Heh, thanks, I love ancient Rome! (FYI, for those who liked HBO's Rome, rumor has it they're making a cinematic sequel called Bona Dea, to be released 2011!)
Heh, thanks, I love ancient Rome! (FYI, for those who liked HBO's Rome, rumor has it they're making a cinematic sequel called Bona Dea, to be released 2011!)What he said.
BTW, you are a genius.
I would indeed love to see Vorenus and Pulo back... man they rocked...
I think it is a cool idea. But would it set a dangerous precedent? If a weapon is allowed to embed itself in a shield then why not a body. And if it can embed itself into a body then you open a doorway into all kinds of nastiness. I remember way back when a character in a home group upgraded a harpoon with returning, owiee!
I think it is a cool idea. But would it set a dangerous precedent? If a weapon is allowed to embed itself in a shield then why not a body. And if it can embed itself into a body then you open a doorway into all kinds of nastiness. I remember way back when a character in a home group upgraded a harpoon with returning, owiee!
Not really, because 3.x has always been a game of special considerations (for example, no one extends the logic of sundering to body parts, which would make sense). Also, that precedent has already been set (see the harpoon spider, MMIII).
I think it is a cool idea. But would it set a dangerous precedent? If a weapon is allowed to embed itself in a shield then why not a body. And if it can embed itself into a body then you open a doorway into all kinds of nastiness. I remember way back when a character in a home group upgraded a harpoon with returning, owiee!Not really, because 3.x has always been a game of special considerations (for example, no one extends the logic of sundering to body parts, which would make sense). Also, that precedent has already been set (see the harpoon spider, MMIII).
Is MMIII for Pathfinder?