Lightning Bolt - assitance please

[Gilgawath]

Could some one help with a little 'discussion' we are currently having around the table.

Scenario: PC = stunned and blind (from colur spray)
Evil wizard casts Lightning bolt into the whre pc stands.
Questions are:
1 Does Pc get a reflex save as per the spell?
2 if the answere to 1 is yes would he get his dex bonus on the save?

I believe that because he is stunned/blind he would be entitled to a reflex save but no dex modifyer.

However players wquoting rules say that dex modifier is only taken of AC when either stunned or blind..

HELP PLEASE

[Dirk Gently]

There is nothing in the description of stun that says they can't make Ref saves, and it even only says they lose their bonus to AC, not relfex saves. As for blindness, I cannot find anything about that (just various abilites that allow you to ignore it...). I would say that, in theory, the character would be able to hear the incoming lightning bolt. I would personally rule that they would not get the Dex bonus to Ref just because of the combination of stunning and blindness, but there's nothing in the rules to suggest that that would be neccessary.

So the answer to 1 is yes, theoretically. Answer to 2 is "I dunno".

[Fake Healer]

Yes and yes.
There are no conditions that remove the modifier from a save.
FH

[shamgar]

If I were the presiding DM, I would rule the following:
1. The PC in question would be allowed the reflex save--whether from hearing it, smelling the ozone, spellcraft, luck, whatever--that is what reflex saves are for.
and
2. He would be denied his dex bonus imo since it is effectively an attack and per the blinded description he loses dex bonus against attacks. Alternately (and worse in many cases for the player, but hey they brought it up) you could assess a -4 penalty as it is effectively a dexterity based skill checks. Per DMG p. 300 those get -4 if blinded.

One final point rests on DMG p. 301 with the definition of stunned--drops everything held and can't take actions. I suppose dodging a lightning bolt isn't *technically* an action, but....

Maybe he should have let you just penalize the dex... :)

Hope this helps.

[Gilgawath]

Thanks guys, I personnaly would have gone with the reflex yes, dex no option

[Jeremy Mac Donald]

Fake Healer wrote:

Yes and yes.

There are no conditions that remove the modifier from a save.
FH

I concur.

[Saern]

As illogical as it seems, there is really no clause anywhere in the rules that would prohibit him from making a Reflex save with a full Dexterity bonus. That's the way the rules read, that's what they seem to think is balanced, and it just falls to us poor shmuck DMs to try and find an in-game explanation that makes some semblance of sense regarding this.

[Vegepygmy]

Anthony Ellis wrote:

1 Does Pc get a reflex save as per the spell?

2 if the answere to 1 is yes would he get his dex bonus on the save?

Yes to both. Your player is correct.

PHB, page 313:
stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).