owner - Redcap's Corner, Owner - Redcap's Corner
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Hey there! So, I know Paizo's opinion on monsters as PCs and I know the position that they plan to devote an entire book to the subject before it'll ever really be all cleared up, but I'm a person very drawn to non-standard options when I roleplay, so I'm trying to get a handle on the current possibilities for monster PCs as best I can.
Here are my questions:
1) Does a monster only fail to have racial hit dice when its entry explicitly says so (ie. kobold, goblin, etc.)? Does, for instance, a vegepygmy have racial hit dice, despite its CR of 1/2?
2) Assuming the answers above are "yes," how do you adjust for a monster with racial hit dice, but only 1/2 CR as a PC? How can we treat the monster as having half a class-level by default? And if the answer is as simple as rounding, is a being a vegepygmy really as good as having a class level?
3) Assuming the answers to question one are "no," does it amount (as it did with 3.5) to any creature with only one hit die officially having no racial hit dice, thus making the vegepygmy a fully playable character?
4) Racial hit dice don't get full hit points at first level, right?
5) How are ability modifiers determined when not explicitly broken down in the form of PC stat blocks? I remember that for 3.5 the answer was to just subtract 10 or 11 (whichever gave you an even result) from each ability score to get the modifiers, but that doesn't seem to be the case for Pathfinder, based on the few listings in the Bestiary that do provide PC stat blocks. Is there an established system for determining these at all?
And I believe those are all my questions. I'm pretty sure I understand the CR to class-levels conversion, and I'm certainly glad to see level adjustments done away with (even though the current system preserves the possibility of races with level adjustment-esque CRs). If I think of anything else, I'll keep posting in this thread.
Thanks!
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Hey there! So, I know Paizo's opinion on monsters as PCs and I know the position that they plan to devote an entire book to the subject before it'll ever really be all cleared up, but I'm a person very drawn to non-standard options when I roleplay, so I'm trying to get a handle on the current possibilities for monster PCs as best I can.
Here are my questions:
1) Does a monster only fail to have racial hit dice when its entry explicitly says so (ie. kobold, goblin, etc.)? Does, for instance, a vegepygmy have racial hit dice, despite its CR of 1/2?
2) Assuming the answers above are "yes," how do you adjust for a monster with racial hit dice, but only 1/2 CR as a PC? How can we treat the monster as having half a class-level by default? And if the answer is as simple as rounding, is a being a vegepygmy really as good as having a class level?
3) Assuming the answers to question one are "no," does it amount (as it did with 3.5) to any creature with only one hit die officially having no racial hit dice, thus making the vegepygmy a fully playable character?
4) Racial hit dice don't get full hit points at first level, right?
5) How are ability modifiers determined when not explicitly broken down in the form of PC stat blocks? I remember that for 3.5 the answer was to just subtract 10 or 11 (whichever gave you an even result) from each ability score to get the modifiers, but that doesn't seem to be the case for Pathfinder, based on the few listings in the Bestiary that do provide PC stat blocks. Is there an established system for determining these at all?
And I believe those are all my questions. I'm pretty sure I understand the CR to class-levels conversion, and I'm certainly glad to see level adjustments done away with (even though the current system preserves the possibility of races with level adjustment-esque CRs). If I think of anything else, I'll keep posting in this thread.
Thanks!
My 2cents. I'll first state that I personally do not like monsters as characters. Once in a while is ok but as soon as on pc has one they all want one.
1) All Monsters have hit dice based on their creature type. Your Vegepygmy is a plant and has a d8 hit dice.
2) As soon as a monster gains a class level such as fighter it would gain those hit dice on top of it's normal monster hit dice.
3) In 3.5 if your race had a fraction of the hit dice that fraction was ignored as you gained a class level.
4) Creature hit dice don't appear to be maxed at 1st level as they have basically 1/2 their max hit points. If they were pc's I'd let them roll.
5) don't know but that's what nice about having them as strictly monsters and not making them into playable races. As a DM you shouldn't have to justify why this monster has that ability or plus to hit.
1. Yes and Yes. There is a difference between Challenge Rating, Hit Dice, and Level Adjustment. I am unfamiliar with the creature you describe, but I do not believe such a creature would have a Level Adjustment.
2. No half levels, it gets overly complicated. Where do we stop slicing levels? Let's keep a level as an integer value for now so we don't have to break out Calculus.
3. Yes.
4. Yes, however your first class level should get max hit points per hit die.
5. Characters are generated with the Elite Array of stats - 15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 8. There is a lot of leeway in the Bestiaries as to how closely this standard is followed.
Ask your GM for his input. Whenever I introduced unusual races, I found that there had to be a little jury-rigging of the rules.
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owner - Redcap's Corner, Owner - Redcap's Corner
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1. Yes and Yes. There is a difference between Challenge Rating, Hit Dice, and Level Adjustment. I am unfamiliar with the creature you describe, but I do not believe such a creature would have a Level Adjustment.
2. No half levels, it gets overly complicated. Where do we stop slicing levels? Let's keep a level as an integer value for now so we don't have to break out Calculus.
3. Yes.
Thanks for your response! Your post raises a few more questions for me, though. How can the answers to questions one and three both be "yes?"
In question one I asked if creatures were only able to ignore racial hit dice if they explicitly stated in their monster entry that they do (like goblin, kobold, orc, tengu, etc.), and in question three I asked if creatures were always able to ignore racial hit dice as long as they had only one hit die (or less). Which is it? I don't see how it can be both.
I'm trying to understand this from a perspective of keeping all PCs in a given party at the same effective level, regardless of whether or not they're all playing monstrous characters, so I'm trying to find out if a vegepygmy, for example (which has CR 1/2 and has one d8 hit die, but isn't explicitly stat-ed out for player-character-use like kobolds are), with one class level would ignore the racial hit die and be an effective level 1 character, or if it would keep its hit die and be an effective level 2 character (one racial hit die plus one class level), or if--as the rules in the Bestiary seem to suggest--it would keep its racial hit die and be an effective level 1.5 character, since CR is treated as effective class level prior to adding actual class level. A level 1.5 character doesn't even make sense, I realize, which is why I'm trying to clear this up.
Also, does level adjustment still exist in Pathfinder, at least in the game rules sense of the term that 3.5 had for it? I didn't think it did.
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owner - Redcap's Corner, Owner - Redcap's Corner
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My 2cents. I'll first state that I personally do not like monsters as characters. Once in a while is ok but as soon as on pc has one they all want one.
1) All Monsters have hit dice based on their creature type. Your Vegepygmy is a plant and has a d8 hit dice.
2) As soon as a monster gains a class level such as fighter it would gain those hit dice on top of it's normal monster hit dice.
3) In 3.5 if your race had a fraction of the hit dice that fraction was ignored as you gained a class level.
4) Creature hit dice don't appear to be maxed at 1st level as they have basically 1/2 their max hit points. If they were pc's I'd let them roll.
5) don't know but that's what nice about having them as strictly monsters and not making them into playable races. As a DM you shouldn't have to justify why this monster has that ability or plus to hit.
Thanks for your help! I had a few counter questions for you too, though!
1) I understand how racial hit dice are determined, but several monsters (specifically, kobold, orc, goblin, tengu, aasimar, tiefling, and hobgoblin... maybe more) state in their entries that they, in fact, do not have racial hit dice and that they should only have hit dice from class levels if ever presented above level 1. This is similar to the system from 3.5 that we can return to in number three. What I was really trying to ask was whether or not the creatures explicitly stated as lacking racial hit dice are the ONLY creatures who lack racial hit dice, or if their entries were chosen to be expanded because they're the most likely candidates for PC use. In other words, is there a more general rule about this sort of thing (like 3.5 had) or do these creatures constitute carefully chosen exceptions to the racial hit dice rules?
2) Yeah, but this isn't true with a goblin or tiefling, right? Or am I misunderstanding something?
3) Are you sure about that? I really, really thought the rule in 3.5 was that any monster with one or fewer hit dice (and no level adjustment) would have its hit dice replaced with class levels, and would start as a typical level 1 character, on equal footing with the core-race PCs. Was it only partial hit dice races?
4) I agree with you about letting them roll, but is there an official rule about that anywhere? I'm more than happy to house-rule stuff and come up with my own solutions, but I mostly started this thread to make sure I understand the official rulings before I delve into the world of coming up with my own solutions.
5) No arguments there from a DM perspective! (: As a player, though, I still really like playing more interesting and memorable characters, and whereas I don't rely entirely on out-there classes and races to make that happen, I certainly appreciate having those options available.
Thanks again!
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owner - Redcap's Corner, Owner - Redcap's Corner
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I never understood why monsters HAVE to have racial hit dice. I always replaced them with class levels and ignored it. Worked great, as long as you continue your math on to any HD-based special attacks or qualities.
That seems like it could be a fine system as long as you screen it for races with game-breaking abilities at low levels, and I'm more than happy to house rule things. I just want to know what the real rules are first.
The difference is in the creature's themselves. Take the Mite, for instance. It is a Fey with 1 HD. If you add classes to a Mite, it will still be a 1 HD Fey, but with class levels. A few entries away you have the merfolk. These are Humanoids, but they have no HD. The entry in the book is actually for a Merfolk Warrior 1--if you take away the level in Warrior, the creature isn't a 1 HD Humanoid at all (if you want a "basic" Merfolk, it would probably be a Commoner 1).
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The difference is in the creature's themselves. Take the Mite, for instance. It is a Fey with 1 HD. If you add classes to a Mite, it will still be a 1 HD Fey, but with class levels. A few entries away you have the merfolk. These are Humanoids, but they have no HD. The entry in the book is actually for a Merfolk Warrior 1--if you take away the level in Warrior, the creature isn't a 1 HD Humanoid at all (if you want a "basic" Merfolk, it would probably be a Commoner 1).
That makes a lot of sense.
Does anyone have any other thoughts on the ability racial modifiers issue? If the entries are mostly using the elite array, is there any way to figure out conclusively which numbers are corresponding to which ability scores? I mean, a 13 could be a 13, or an 11 with a +2 racial mod, or a 15 with a -2 racial mod. There's nothing more concrete about determining a monster's racial ability modifiers?
That makes a lot of sense.
Does anyone have any other thoughts on the ability racial modifiers issue? If the entries are mostly using the elite array, is there any way to figure out conclusively which numbers are corresponding to which ability scores? I mean, a 13 could be a 13, or an 11 with a +2 racial mod, or a 15 with a -2 racial mod. There's nothing more concrete about determining a monster's racial ability modifiers?
Only entries using Character classes (not NPC classes like warrior) use the Elite array. The others use the Standard array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8). For all such entries, there is no reason to "retrofit" these to try and figure out the racial modifiers since they are listed in each entry. For all other monsters (i.e. those without class levels listed), just subtract 11 from the odd values or 10 from the even values and you have the racial ability modifiers. Here's the relevant text from the book:
Ability Scores: The creature's ability scores are listed here. Unless otherwise indicated, a creature's ability scores represent the baseline of its racial modifiers applied to scores of 10 or 11. Creatures with NPC class levels have stats in the standard array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), while creatures with character class levels have the elite array (15, 14, 12, 11, 10, 8); in both cases, the creature's ability score modifiers are listed at the end of its description.[/url]
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Perfect! That's exactly the passage I had been unable to find. Thanks so much for all your help. I just thought of one last question I had, and I think if anybody can answer it, all my monster PC concerns are absolved, but what happens if you play a race that casts as a 7th-level sorcerer or a 5th-level cleric, or whathaveyou, and then you start taking class levels in sorcerer or cleric, respectively. Do the racial levels stack with the class levels for spellcasting? I'm not sure I even have a strong intuition on this one.
(By the way, this is petalred. After I started this thread, I got around to setting up my profile. Just wanted to make sure it didn't seem like I was somebody else hijacking this thread. I'm the original poster)
Perfect! That's exactly the passage I had been unable to find. Thanks so much for all your help. I just thought of one last question I had, and I think if anybody can answer it, all my monster PC concerns are absolved, but what happens if you play a race that casts as a 7th-level sorcerer or a 5th-level cleric, or whathaveyou, and then you start taking class levels in sorcerer or cleric, respectively. Do the racial levels stack with the class levels for spellcasting? I'm not sure I even have a strong intuition on this one.
(By the way, this is petalred. After I started this thread, I got around to setting up my profile. Just wanted to make sure it didn't seem like I was somebody else hijacking this thread. I'm the original poster)
You'll find that in the Monster Advancement section (along with some more info on ability scores that basically bumps them up to having the Elite array). Specifically, if the creature has spell-like abilities those are not increased by adding class levels, but if they have an actual entry for Spells Known/Prepared (like a dragon), then adding class levels does indeed increase spellcasting ability. The same applies to other class abilities a monster might have, such as Sneak Attack, Rage, Favored Enemey, etc.
Step 2: Add Class Levels
Once you have determined the creature's role, it's time to add class levels. The first step of this process is to modify the creature's ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities. Creatures with NPC class levels do not receive adjustments to their ability scores.
Next, add the class levels to the monster, making all of the necessary additions to its HD, hit points, BAB, CMB, CMD, feats, skills, spells, and class features. If the creature possesses class features (such as spellcasting or sneak attack) for the class that is being added, these abilities stack. This functions just like adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice.
Hey there! So, I know Paizo's opinion on monsters as PCs and I know the position that they plan to devote an entire book to the subject before it'll ever really be all cleared up, but I'm a person very drawn to non-standard options when I roleplay, so I'm trying to get a handle on the current possibilities for monster PCs as best I can.
Here are my questions:
1) Does a monster only fail to have racial hit dice when its entry explicitly says so (ie. kobold, goblin, etc.)? Does, for instance, a vegepygmy have racial hit dice, despite its CR of 1/2?
2) Assuming the answers above are "yes," how do you adjust for a monster with racial hit dice, but only 1/2 CR as a PC? How can we treat the monster as having half a class-level by default? And if the answer is as simple as rounding, is a being a vegepygmy really as good as having a class level?
3) Assuming the answers to question one are "no," does it amount (as it did with 3.5) to any creature with only one hit die officially having no racial hit dice, thus making the vegepygmy a fully playable character?
4) Racial hit dice don't get full hit points at first level, right?
5) How are ability modifiers determined when not explicitly broken down in the form of PC stat blocks? I remember that for 3.5 the answer was to just subtract 10 or 11 (whichever gave you an even result) from each ability score to get the modifiers, but that doesn't seem to be the case for Pathfinder, based on the few listings in the Bestiary that do provide PC stat blocks. Is there an established system for determining these at all?
And I believe those are all my questions. I'm pretty sure I understand the CR to class-levels conversion, and I'm certainly glad to see level adjustments done away with (even though the current system preserves the possibility of races with level adjustment-esque CRs). If I think of anything else, I'll keep posting in this thread.
Thanks!
If a creature only has 1 HD of say humanoid, you replace that HD with their class HD. I'm not looking at a beastiary so my numbers could be off, just get the idea. A goblin with 1 HD of humanoid (1d8) is replaced if it takes a level of barbarian and it is a 1 HD creature with (1d12) as hit's hit dice
A minotaur with a base 4HD would start with 4d8(10?) plus it's first class level of barbarian's 1d12 and as such would be treated higher level than a 1 goblin barbarian.
If a creature only has 1 HD of say humanoid, you replace that HD with their class HD. I'm not looking at a beastiary so my numbers could be off, just get the idea. A goblin with 1 HD of humanoid (1d8) is replaced if it takes a level of barbarian and it is a 1 HD creature with (1d12) as hit's hit dice
A minotaur with a base 4HD would start with 4d8(10?) plus it's first class level of barbarian's 1d12 and as such would be treated higher level than a 1 goblin barbarian.
Close. You are correct on the Minotaur--class levels are added on top of racial HD. However, goblins do not have any racial HD at all. The entry in the Bestiary is for a Goblin Warrior 1, i.e. a goblin with 1 level in warrior. If you take that level away, you don't end up with a 1 HD goblin, but rather the goblin "ceases to exist" as a creature (just like you can't have a 1 HD human, elf, or dwarf). If you want a "base" level goblin, it would be a Commoner 1.
A mite or vegepygmy on the other hand is a 1 HD creature. If you add class levels, you do not take away that 1 racial HD at all, but rather add the class levels to the 1 racial HD.
Raising this thread as I am contemplating a mixed group of standard race PCs and low CR bestiary races. I know, it isn't recommended, but I am interested in this idea nonetheless. The rule of thumb is to let all players chose at a standard CR.
BUT, what is the CR of standard races, assuming that they take a level of a PC class?
is it CR1/4 (kobold, mite), CR 1/3 (drow, druegar, goblin, orc, merfolk) or CR1/2 (aasimar, hobgoblin, tengu, tiefling, vegepygmy)?
BUT, what is the CR of standard races, assuming that they take a level of a PC class?
is it CR1/4 (kobold, mite), CR 1/3 (drow, druegar, goblin, orc, merfolk) or CR1/2 (aasimar, hobgoblin, tengu, tiefling, vegepygmy)?
1/4's are fine. Non-noble drow should be okay (Druegar are a bit tough), but having them or Aasimar/Tieflings in the party should mean everyone else gets a boost (see Council of Thieves Player's Guide for suggestions). Hobgoblins should work fine - not that familiar with Tengu or Vegepygmies. But the Tengu "Swordtrained" ability is quite powerful (3 exotic weapon proficiencies included there), and Vegepygmy's plant immunities and DR would be extremely powerful.
player's guide is interesting, thanks!
I agree that vegepygmy is overpowered, those plant immunities are too much for 1 level, let alone the other features which are pretty good (DR, natural armor, beneficial stats adjustments, natural weapons, electricity immunity). the fluff also makes it unsuited to an adventuring party.
sounds like CR 1/4 is the target they had in mind.