I'm reading this ability and seeing "spend 2 ki points to heal monk level hit points to yourself". Does that seem like an incredibly bad deal to anyone else? For one thing, ki points are few and far between -- half monk level + Wis, so probably no more than 14-ish by level 20. Then you compare the other things ki can do for you (stacking extra attack, etherealness, dimension door, etc), and it really just doesn't seem worth it.
You're not missing anything. It sucks. Badly. Perhaps multiplying by wisdom and cutting it down to one ki point would help. By level 20, that's probably not going to top a hundred hit points, meaning it's pretty useless in a fight, but between fights, it could be a stout supplement.
As it stands, it's something you do before bed time if you had nothing to do with your ki that day.
The thing is, the monk should not be able to heal amazingly, to me it's more like a little emergency reserve, and not something that you'd spend ki-points on all day. The added bonus of a little flexibility never hurts.
I agree. Its only meant to be a back-up for emergencies. However... if you scour the various 3.5 books there are feats or class abilities that can improve it. One minor example would be the Azure Touch feat from Magic of Incarnum.
Tome of Secrets released a Mystic Healer feat that added additional dice to any healing effect you created.
Also, the ability to heal oneself as a monk is purely a reserve feat. In the last campaign I was in, back in 3.5, our party monk RARELY used it, and it was halfway decent back then. Still, when she was separated from the cleric and really needed that heal, it was hard to argue with essentially free potions of cure wounds.
Every time I read a post that says (paraphrased) "it's not a monk's role to do XYZ; a monk's role is to run really fast and have good save bonuses", a little bit of me dies inside.
:-(
This ability isn't meant to replace the need for a cleric or other actual healer. It's for emergencies, and perhaps to take some of the healing pressure off the cleric at the end of the day when the monk's got a few ki points left.
I wasn't wanting the monk to replace the need for an actual healer, but your level in damage as a standard action is pretty useless as an emergency measure. By the time you even get Wholeness of Body, it's healing 7 hit points and the average damage for the monsters you're fighting in an easy fight is 22-30 per hit. That's 3-4 times the amount of healing you're able to do.
So, really, it's only useful as a bedtime story, so to speak, and then only if you're confident you won't be ambushed at night.
That's fine, since there's plenty of other good uses for ki points. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything that'd make Wholeness of Body useful as anything but a pressure relief valve at the end of the day.
If you want to make it useful as an emergency measure, just make it an Immediate action instead of a Standard action. Then, it works perfectly in an emergency as a measure to keep your monk from going too far into the negatives when he gets hit particularly badly.
If you want to make it useful as an emergency measure, just make it an Immediate action instead of a Standard action. Then, it works perfectly in an emergency as a measure to keep your monk from going too far into the negatives when he gets hit particularly badly.
Yep, that'd work well. I'll have to propose that to our group when it comes time to start in on house rules.
I have houseruled ever since the 3.5 days to do monk level x wis mod. I think that is a bit much now so I will probably change it to monk level x 1/2 wis mod or 1/2 monk level x wis mod. Without doing the math I think these are basically the same, and it still cost a standard action, but it can keep you alive.
The next step of that is too much is 1/2 wis mod x 1/2 monk level.
I think I will make it a swift action, akin to the paladin's lay on hands ability when used on themselves. Now to debate about whether it should cost 1 or 2 ki points. Hmmm.
Agreed. Making it a swift action does make a little more sense. I'd need to play a Monk myself to see if 2 ki points is really too much or not. Perhaps I'll do so in my current game if my fighter Gregor falls dead.
Perhaps use an Azuran from Magic of Incarnum for the Monk's race. Then I'd have the option of adding in Azure Touch to modify the healing a little down the line after I get the ability.
The only real uses for it in its current form, I think:
1) Bringing you back to positives if you're oh-so-close
2) To stop bleeding if you can't do heal checks
3) If you play an assassin-type that can infiltrate and hide within the enemy's premises for days at a time.
With all that said, I preferred the old usage (use as much or as little as you want, no ki points, free action), it basically made monks quasi-immune to bleed.
The other problem is that at 13th level monks get Diamond Soul, which makes healing them in the middle of combat difficult due to SR of 23 (50/50 chance) while he (or she) can only heal 13HP while getting hit for 40+ damage or something like that.
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I think I will make it a swift action, akin to the paladin's lay on hands ability when used on themselves. Now to debate about whether it should cost 1 or 2 ki points. Hmmm.
i like this idea as well, but i think i will implement 1 change
1 ki point(s) - heal as a standard
2 ki point(s) - heal as a swift
Just want to toss this out there to make sure we are all on the same page. One thing of note, is that overall the the healing provided from Wholeness of Body (WoB) has been increased over that of its 3.5 counterpart.
Quoting the 3.5 PHB and PRD...
Wholeness of Body [Su]: At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal her own wounds. She can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to twice her current monk level each day, and she can spread this healing out among several uses.
Wholeness of Body (Su): At 7th level or higher, a monk can heal his own wounds as a standard action. He can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to his monk level by using 2 points from his ki pool.
Ki Pool (Su): At 4th level, a monk gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy he can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in a monk's ki pool is equal to 1/2 his monk level + his Wisdom modifier. *SNIP*
Keeping this in mind, were you to use the current version of WoB twice you'd have the same amount of healing provided by the prior version of WoB. Unlike the previous version, the amount of healing provided by the current version can also be increased by increasing your Ki pool. Either increasing your Wisdom or taking the appropriate feat does this. You can also use the Azure Touch feat from Magic of Incarnum to increase your effective Monk level and thus increase the amount of healing per use. To conclude, were you to focus the majority of your Ki Pool on healing, you can easily outdo what the previous version of the Monk could mostly only dream of. Given one full day of rest, and assuming a Wisdom of 18 a 8th level Monk would have 8 Ki points, and could use all those points on WoB four times providing 32 points of healing. You could spend a feat on Extra Ki to get 2 more Ki points and equip a +4 Wisdom item for 2 more Ki points, and your amount of healing would increase by an additional 16 points. (Total 48) Were we to change the Ki point cost of WoB to 1 point. These numbers would double.
You're not missing anything. It sucks. Badly. Perhaps multiplying by wisdom and cutting it down to one ki point would help. By level 20, that's probably not going to top a hundred hit points, meaning it's pretty useless in a fight, but between fights, it could be a stout supplement.
As it stands, it's something you do before bed time if you had nothing to do with your ki that day.
Were we to drop the cost to 1 point, the amount of healing would be 96 points at 8th level with only one feat and a +4 item of Wisdom if the Monk spent the entirety of his Ki Pool on healing. By 20th level the Monk would have nearly twice the Ki points.
Okay, so the differences between the 3.5 Monk and the Pathfinder Monk with respect to Ki points is this:
Ki Strike: Need to have at least 1 Ki point now.
Healing: Need 2 Ki points per half monk level heal. So 4 points to match the old monk.
Abundant Step: Need 2 points to match the old monk.
Empty Body: Need 3 points to match the old monk.
.
Versatility in the individual ability was lost on some things (healing and empty body were "as you used it" stuff), but overall the versatility of Ki points in general are better.
Note that the above list of Ki points, to match the old 3.5 Monk, takes 10 points. A 20th level Monk can do that without adding in his Wisdom modifier.
So.
Added versatility (don't have wasted abundant step that you didn't use that day). Added abilities (extra attack, +20 speed, +defense, +20 acrobatics check). More usage possible with increased Ki point pool (Wisdom, feats, etc).
I guess the problem here really is a matter of perspective. The ability is, in fact, better than before when coupled with the whole system.
The problem is... healing a small bit of hitpoints is kind of wimpy compared to things like extra attacks. The power might not seem relative, but it all still fits the class properly.
It's like one of those trick math questions with breaking change.
Agreed.
And you do have the ability to pick up the Extra Ki feat rather easily and because Pathfinder gives out those "extra 3 feats" over the 7 we received in the 3.5 system, you have allot of flexibility there as well.
So, even if we don't house rule down the cost of WoB, its still worth it for out of combat healing. A Monk with WoB, can easily recover to full health from 1 hp in a single day. A Fighter reduced to 1 hp is going to require allot of attention to be back in the fight.
If we house rule that WoB takes a swift action, I could see a Monk dropping into a full defensive posture and using WoB to heal himself while being fairly untouchable. Considering a cleric now has channel energy to effect wide area healing, WoB is a nice boost on top of what the cleric can provide.
Chakra Body Alignment
Prerequisite: Wholeness of Body ability, Wisdom 13 and Constitution 13.
Benefit: You may now use the Wholeness of Body ability as a move action. You also gain 1 additional use of the Wholeness of Body for free per day.
Chakra Body Alignment Mastery
Prerequisite: Chakra Body Alignment Feat, Wholeness of Body ability, Wisdom 15 and Constitution 13.
Benefit: You may now use the Wholeness of Body ability as a swift action. You also gain 2 additional ki points.
____________________________________________________________
Perhaps this might help fix the problem?
Chakra Body Alignment
Prerequisite: Wholeness of Body ability, Wisdom 13 and Constitution 13.
Benefit: You may now use the Wholeness of Body ability as a move action. You also gain 1 additional use of the Wholeness of Body for free per day.Chakra Body Alignment Mastery
Prerequisite: Chakra Body Alignment Feat, Wholeness of Body ability, Wisdom 15 and Constitution 13.
Benefit: You may now use the Wholeness of Body ability as a swift action. You also gain 2 additional ki points.____________________________________________________________
Perhaps this might help fix the problem?
I'm assuming these are your creations?
First off... Extra Ki already gives 2 Ki points each time you take it.
Secondly, the first feat would need a slight rewording as WoB does not have "uses per day" anymore. Perhaps just have it increase the speed of your Ki abilities to a Move Action?
Thirdly, the second feat gives the benefit of Extra Ki + makes WoB a Swift action. Perhaps just have it make Ki abilities a Swift action?
Were we to drop the cost to 1 point, the amount of healing would be 96 points at 8th level with only one feat and a +4 item of Wisdom if the Monk spent the entirety of his Ki Pool on healing. By 20th level the Monk would have nearly twice the Ki points.
The problem being?
And mind, that's assuming they use all their ki on healing.
Were we to drop the cost to 1 point, the amount of healing would be 96 points at 8th level with only one feat and a +4 item of Wisdom if the Monk spent the entirety of his Ki Pool on healing. By 20th level the Monk would have nearly twice the Ki points.The problem being?
And mind, that's assuming they use all their ki on healing.
No problem... just responding to the remark -
"By level 20, that's probably not going to top a hundred hit points..."
Was pointing out that you would not need to be 20th to nearly top 100 hp worth of healing if you dropped the cost to 1. By 20th you'd be doing probally 190+ points of healing before considering really nice Wisdom buffs or additional feats in Extra Ki.
How is this for a fix. A monk stil uses 2 points to get a levels worth of healing. But a monk can also chose to spend more ki points. Spend 4 and you get twice your level. Spend 6 and get three times your level.
Sure it will drain your ki points fast, and it doesnt actually add anything, but it will allow a Monk to dumb all of his Ki and give himself a pretty decent healing boost.
So a 10th level Monk with about 10 key points could in one action burn all 10 of them and heal himself 50 points. Very expensive in points but could easily be the difference in surviving that BBEG you have been going toe to toe with.
This might be ok if you are going to be in a group that does not have a cleric. Sounds like a good feat idea to me.
Though... in a party with a cleric that channels positive... the provided healing would actually work well.
Every time I read a post that says (paraphrased) "it's not a monk's role to do XYZ; a monk's role is to run really fast and have good save bonuses", a little bit of me dies inside.
:-(
Would it bring a little of you back to life if I said the monk's role is to kill arcane spellcasters?
No problem... just responding to the remark -
"By level 20, that's probably not going to top a hundred hit points..."
Was pointing out that you would not need to be 20th to nearly top 100 hp worth of healing if you dropped the cost to 1. By 20th you'd be doing probally 190+ points of healing before considering really nice Wisdom buffs or additional feats in Extra Ki.
A hundred points a pop at level 20 is about as far as you're liable to go. Maybe 120 if you have a racial bonus and a +6 item. That you can use it multiple times is no biggie. Giving Monks a meaningful pool of out-of-combat healing helps keep 'em from being a drain on the party, at the very least.
Would it bring a little of you back to life if I said the monk's role is to kill arcane spellcasters?
Except they're not any good at that, either.
*Casts Fly, Wall of Stone, summoning, and any of countless spells that easily bypass Monk abilities entirely.*
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Would it bring a little of you back to life if I said the monk's role is to kill arcane spellcasters?Except they're not any good at that, either.
*Casts Fly, Wall of Stone, summoning, and any of countless spells that easily bypass Monk abilities entirely.*
*Spend Ki for +20 Acrobatics(jump), jump and grapple caster, Flurry of Stuning Fist*
*Spend Ki for +20 Acrobatics(jump), jump and grapple caster, Flurry of Stuning Fist*
Except +5' vertical reach ain't gonna cut it when I'm sixty feet off the ground within a round. Unless you can make a DC220 Acrobatic check, that is. Jumping doesn't replace actual flight. Nor does it get you through stone walls or bears or Mirror Image or allow you to detect my invisible flying caster or counter any of the other spells in the caster's arsenal. Spell resistance and high saves ain't any good against casters who don't have to rely on spells that are subject to spell resistance and offer a save.
Would it bring a little of you back to life if I said the monk's role is to kill arcane spellcasters?Every time I read a post that says (paraphrased) "it's not a monk's role to do XYZ; a monk's role is to run really fast and have good save bonuses", a little bit of me dies inside.
:-(
Not really. I would say that a fighter is better at it at low levels, and a wizard is better at it at high levels.
Would it bring a little of you back to life if I said the monk's role is to kill arcane spellcasters?Every time I read a post that says (paraphrased) "it's not a monk's role to do XYZ; a monk's role is to run really fast and have good save bonuses", a little bit of me dies inside.
:-(
Thats kinda silly. The monks "role" is what you design them for. With some decent dice rolls or a little thought put behind the design of your monk, they can do quite well in a variety of roles.
In past 3.X games, I've seen Monks that hit as well, and have just as high an AC, as a fighter. (Sometimes better)
It basically comes down to experience and luck of the dice rolls when designing a character and how "potent" that character will be.
Would it bring a little of you back to life if I said the monk's role is to kill arcane spellcasters?Except they're not any good at that, either.
*Casts Fly, Wall of Stone, summoning, and any of countless spells that easily bypass Monk abilities entirely.*
A prepared Monk can drink a potion of fly and be after a flying wizard fairly quickly. A Wall of Stone will temporarily stop just about any character, and thus is moot...although depending on the shape of the wall a monk might be able to just jump over it. Summonings take time and a smart Monk can use high movement to get on top of a summoning wizard and potentially ruin that spell.
If the character is DESIGNED to kill casters, you'll spend your wealth and build the character to do so by giving the character the proper feats.
Its very easy to say I cast "x,y,z" spell and thus your character can do nothing. That does not stop wizards from dieing anyway.
"At 12th level or higher, a monk can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door."
That fixes many movement issues.
I'm going to house rule that it is 1 Ki point to heal monk levels of hp.
OK, first I'll try playing it as written, then I will probably house rule it to one ki point.
A prepared Monk can drink a potion of fly and be after a flying wizard fairly quickly. A Wall of Stone will temporarily stop just about any character, and thus is moot...although depending on the shape of the wall a monk might be able to just jump over it. Summonings take time and a smart Monk can use high movement to get on top of a summoning wizard and potentially ruin that spell.
If the character is DESIGNED to kill casters, you'll spend your wealth and build the character to do so by giving the character the proper feats.
Its very easy to say I cast "x,y,z" spell and thus your character can do nothing. That does not stop wizards from dieing anyway.
Except now with that Monk designed to go after arcanists, you're pitting a Monk's utility belt (acquired through expensive expendable items) against a dedicated mage's utility belt (which is vast and a class feature), a battle the Monk will always lose. And that Monk is burning a 750g potion just to reach the mage. That's a lot of money for the effect, and he may not even be able to see the mage, or bypass the myriad other defenses that a Wizard can have.
The Monk just doesn't get anything that makes them much good at (let alone uniquely suited to) killing mages or bypassing their defenses.
Threadjack away; I've already gotten everything I wanted from this thread.
A prepared Monk can drink a potion of fly and be after a flying wizard fairly quickly. A Wall of Stone will temporarily stop just about any character, and thus is moot...although depending on the shape of the wall a monk might be able to just jump over it. Summonings take time and a smart Monk can use high movement to get on top of a summoning wizard and potentially ruin that spell.
If the character is DESIGNED to kill casters, you'll spend your wealth and build the character to do so by giving the character the proper feats.
Its very easy to say I cast "x,y,z" spell and thus your character can do nothing. That does not stop wizards from dieing anyway.
Except now with that Monk designed to go after arcanists, you're pitting a Monk's utility belt (acquired through expensive expendable items) against a dedicated mage's utility belt (which is vast and a class feature), a battle the Monk will always lose. And that Monk is burning a 750g potion just to reach the mage. That's a lot of money for the effect, and he may not even be able to see the mage, or bypass the myriad other defenses that a Wizard can have.
The Monk just doesn't get anything that makes them much good at (let alone uniquely suited to) killing mages or bypassing their defenses.
And that is assuming your mage will have all those wonderful defensive magics up a running 24/7. I agree that a prepared mage can indeed do allot. A mage that is the aggressor will indeed have all kinds of nasties up and running. Honestly though, that just does not happen all the time. Casters can and are suprised just like everyone else. Not every wizard is a specialist diviner able to act before anyone else.
A monk does not require allot of weapons or armor to kill. A monk honestly does not really require much equipment at all and thus has quite a bit of gold to spend. The best weapon a monk could have against a wizard is a extremely high initiative and a permanent zone of anti-magic enchanted on a dart in a lead lined pocket. (or whatever would best contain the effect) A quick throw of that ... and at that point all most mages are is a man or women dressed in a bath robe holding a stick.
We can go back and forth like this all day. Each one of us stating the perfect conditions under which each character can kill the other. Each situation would have merit, because each situation could happen.
There are no "winners".
Fight over... I'm not posting anymore. I didn't intend to threadjack.
The thing is, the monk should not be able to heal amazingly, to me it's more like a little emergency reserve, and not something that you'd spend ki-points on all day. The added bonus of a little flexibility never hurts.
Why not? Hit Points are supposed to be an abstract, the majority representing cuts and bruises. A Monk should be able to shrug off cuts and bruises with no problem whatsoever.
I was the BIGGEST proponnent for upping the power/flexibility of the monk...but Jason didn't want them to be that different from the original...
Making it a swift action is actually pretty cool. I might just pick up that house rule... not that I've got monks in any games I'm running now, of course...
James,
According to your previous post, it seems that good ideas sometimes arise after the product has already been released.
That makes me wonder:
Do these ideas ever get "retconned" into your existing products?
Take the example of Wholeness of Body as a swift action:
If you and Jason really dig it, would you ever go back into the Core Rulebook and change it?
I'm just curious as to how Paizo products evolve (or don't evolve) as new ideas arise. Many of these ideas can be house-ruled, but if the idea makes the game much better, I wonder if you'd permanently incorporate it?
A monk does not require allot of weapons or armor to kill. A monk honestly does not really require much equipment at all and thus has quite a bit of gold to spend.
The Monk is one of the most gear-dependent classes in the game. No, they don't need weapons or armor, but they need everything else, and more of it to make up for all the things they lack. They have less gold to spread around than most other classes, and less ability to use expendables than most other classes (UMD isn't a class skill, no spell list).
The best weapon a monk could have against a wizard is a extremely high initiative and a permanent zone of anti-magic enchanted on a dart in a lead lined pocket. (or whatever would best contain the effect) A quick throw of that ... and at that point all most mages are is a man or women dressed in a bath robe holding a stick.
So the Monk wins when using a weapon that doesn't exist? That's the argument you're going with? Seriously?
AMF cannot be made permanent, and it's self-only. What's more, if that trick did exist, anyone could pull it off just as easily, it wouldn't be a Monk-specific shtick at all, and it wouldn't make Monk uniquely suited in any way. What's more, you're talking a very mid-to-high-level spell. Even a scroll would be 1650/use. If you're talking a custom magic item? That's over a hundred grand.
Besides, the best AMF-user is either a magic domain Cleric with stout melee so that she can both cast the AMF and fight moderately well with it up, or an Arcane Archer, who can fire the almighty imbued AMF arrow while someone else takes to the fray. Which is a case of casters beating casters.
We can go back and forth like this all day. Each one of us stating the perfect conditions under which each character can kill the other. Each situation would have merit, because each situation could happen.
Except one hand has normal mage spell preparation, the other has a Monk blowing vast amounts of wealth that she sorely needs for other things on expendables that vastly exceed the expendable allowance just to win that one fight with a mage. If the mage wins the normal encounter, and the Monk wins if the mage is caught in the bathtub with his pants down when hit with a superitem that doesn't exist, guess who wins the comparison?
So I lied... you "win".
My only further comment is "No comment".
I hope the OP was able to get what they needed.
So I lied... you "win".
My only further comment is "No comment".
I hope the OP was able to get what they needed.
I don't think that throwing around ideas and opinions is a win/lose situation Lokie. Unless of course you make it so...
Role-playing is about choices, and styles, some DMs run with hundreds of house-rules in their own worlds, others play out of the box, with RAW...
It's up to the GM and the People playing in their game.
Chakra Body Alignment
Prerequisite: Wholeness of Body ability, Wisdom 13 and Constitution 13.
Benefit: You may now use the Wholeness of Body ability as a move action. You also gain 1 additional use of the Wholeness of Body for free per day.Chakra Body Alignment Mastery
Prerequisite: Chakra Body Alignment Feat, Wholeness of Body ability, Wisdom 15 and Constitution 13.
Benefit: You may now use the Wholeness of Body ability as a swift action. You also gain 2 additional ki points.____________________________________________________________
Perhaps this might help fix the problem?
Good ideas Hex!
Those might work as alternate class abilities as well.
Would it bring a little of you back to life if I said the monk's role is to kill arcane spellcasters?
Thats kinda silly. The monks "role" is what you design them for. With some decent dice rolls or a little thought put behind the design of your monk, they can do quite well in a variety of roles.
In past 3.X games, I've seen Monks that hit as well, and have just as high an AC, as a fighter. (Sometimes better)
It basically comes down to experience and luck of the dice rolls when designing a character and how "potent" that character will be.
It's not really that silly. I've seen several cases where a monk has been the bane of an enemy wizard on the battlefield. A grappled wizard without a verbal-only spell to escape usually ends up a (badly bruised) pretzel.
Then again, I've also seen monks kick down doors, intimidate prisoners into giving up information, and hammer out peace treaties between opposing tribes, so...
The Monk is one of the most gear-dependent classes in the game. No, they don't need weapons or armor, but they need everything else, and more of it to make up for all the things they lack. They have less gold to spread around than most other classes, and less ability to use expendables than most other classes (UMD isn't a class skill, no spell list).
As the OP is not opposed to a threadjack...
Could you elaborate on that comment please? I have played monks in the past who did not need "more" than everyone else, so I am not seeing where they are lacking.
I have to agree with Lokie and others that monks can make good mage killers. At lower levels, their high movement allows them to get in close fast. At higher level, Abundant Step along with a grapple will seriously inconvenience your example of a flying mage (minimum 880'). You don't necessarily have to use up a lot of expendables (especially as the monk will likely have friends casting any needed buffs on them).