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If a weapon is poisoned, how long does the poison last?
Assuming Bob the fighter gets bit by 3 snakes in the same round each with a DC 14 save, 1 save cures.
If he makes each save does that stop the DC from scaling because he has effectively "cured" the poison, or does the DC scale with each dose until he is poisoned, and then when he is cured the DC goes back down to 14. The example in the book makes it appear they scale, but I'm assuming that is because he failed his previous saves.
Most poisons in 3.5 worked for 1 hit then were gone, drow poison worked for 3 hits, are all poisons now 1 hit then gone?
Thanks in advance for some clarification
If others have questions about the pathfinder poisons, please feel free to post those here as well, hopefully we can get them all answered.
Might want to check out this thread
You can take a look at these too:
Delay Poison Spell and Poison Stacking Rules.
Poison and multiple doses.
Poison in Pathfinder - How does it work?
Poison DC increases on a PASSED save?
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You can take a look at these too:
Delay Poison Spell and Poison Stacking Rules.
Poison and multiple doses.
Poison in Pathfinder - How does it work?
Poison DC increases on a PASSED save?
Maybe I'm just a skeptic, but poisons really do seem to be one of the things in PF that doesn't work very effectively or intuitively.
Has anyone playing a PC in PF made a character that uses poisons extensively? Perhaps an assassin, for instance? What strategies and poisons did you use?
Looking at the poisons listed, only the ones that caused unconsciousness seemed worth their price without using magic (minor creation/fabricate) to create them, given the low initial effect and the high cost of delivering enough doses to make the damage effective.
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Maybe I'm just a skeptic, but poisons really do seem to be one of the things in PF that doesn't work very effectively or intuitively.
I have not play-tested the PF system, but I have studied it and tested the concept with my character who does use Poisons in my current 3.5 game. My opinion is that if we adopt the PF rules I shall be far more inclined to use poison more frequently and to far more devastating effect.
Has anyone playing a PC in PF made a character that uses poisons extensively? Perhaps an assassin, for instance? What strategies and poisons did you use?
Considering one of the major disagreements I had to poison in 3.5 was the low DCs and inability to effectively raise them, I am a fan of the new system. Like I said I have tested the concept in my head and the strategies that come to mind, as tactics that my character would use, are these:
1) Several throwing knives coated in the same poison and the Quick Draw feat plus Haste and one or more TWF feats. End result being, at mid-levels, that in the first round of combat you could deliver between four and six daggers to a target. All would have SA damage if your opponent was flat-footed. All would inject their poison and at the end of your attacks the opponent would make a single Fort Save vs. a DC set by four to six doses of poison. Now in a scenario like that even the DC 13 Greenblood Oil poison is dangerous. Four doses would raise the DC to 19 with 10 rounds of losing 1 CON/round unless you succeed on a 19 Fort Save. Six doses would raise the DC to 23 with 14 rounds of CON damage. A poison like Black Lotus Extract would be deadly: four doses would bring the DC to 26 and cause 15 rounds of 1d6 CON damage.
2) Similar end effect with a bow/crossbow a few feats and dipping multiple arrow tips in the same poison.
3) Using TWF with short swords (or whatever blades) as well as Spiked Gauntlets, and enchanting all weapons with a +1 equivalent enchant from The Drow of the Underdark book, you could have devastating effect in melee with poison. The enchantment allows your weapon to hold a single dose of poison for two attacks, effectively turning one dose into two doses. Now, with that set up and 4 doses of the same poison, one on each of your four weapons. You have eight attacks which can deliver poison.
Looking at the poisons listed, only the ones that caused unconsciousness seemed worth their price without using magic (minor creation/fabricate) to create them, given the low initial effect and the high cost of delivering enough doses to make the damage effective.
Poisons that cause unconsciousness have had one of the greatest improvements from the new system. Most of those poisons have very low DCs but if you can pump multiple doses into one opponent you can take the DC to a near impossible to achieve level and take that opponent out of a fight before he even has a chance to attack.
Maybe I'm just a skeptic, but poisons really do seem to be one of the things in PF that doesn't work very effectively or intuitively.Has anyone playing a PC in PF made a character that uses poisons extensively? Perhaps an assassin, for instance? What strategies and poisons did you use?
Looking at the poisons listed, only the ones that caused unconsciousness seemed worth their price without using magic (minor creation/fabricate) to create them, given the low initial effect and the high cost of delivering enough doses to make the damage effective.
Honestly I have been playing around with the idea of a ranger who uses poison. Take a snake companion and teach it a trick to poison your arrows. Poison will scale up with it's HD. Could be quite deadly, esp. if you keep the snake small and boost it's CON, get it ability focus: poison for another +2 DC.
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Well, at least there's a few fans for the new system. I'm not convinced that raising the DC a decent amount after 5 attacks for a small amount of damage is much better than the odds of an opponent failing 1/5 saves and taking the straight 3d6 black lotus extract from 3.5 without the extra math and making saving throws each round, but I won't knock it too much until I've tried it.
I've got a low-level rogue with a backpack full of poison in my latest PF game (Second Darkness!), so I'll be giving the PF poison system some testing soon enough.
By the way, here's the poison handbook that I wrote for 3.5. I'm hoping to add a page for PF soon enough to explain how the new system works.
Anyone know if there have been new poisons released in any source books or modules? I'd expect the Cheliax-oriented ones would probably have some information.
You can take a look at these too:
Delay Poison Spell and Poison Stacking Rules.
Poison and multiple doses.
Poison in Pathfinder - How does it work?
Poison DC increases on a PASSED save?
o.k. that clears up most questions
last question for now at least :)If harsk poisons his dagger how long is the poison good? In 3.5 most poisons were good until you use it, some worked for multiple hits like drow poison. Does his blade stay poisoned indefinately? Is the poison consumed the first time he hits something? Does it stay on the blade for a day?
You can take a look at these too:
Delay Poison Spell and Poison Stacking Rules.
Poison and multiple doses.
Poison in Pathfinder - How does it work?
Poison DC increases on a PASSED save?
Ok that answers most questions
How long does a weapon stay poisoned once a PC poisons it?
To be honest, I don't think there is specific text that specifies. At least it isn't in the poison section of the Glossary/PRD. However, to the best of my knowledge all poison even in 3.5 was a one shot per dose deal. You say Drow Poison was different but I don't remember a difference if there was. There were weapon enchantments that would cause a dose to remain potent for two attacks rather than one but other than that I though all poison was one shot per dose.
The new poison description seems to be very "dose" based. EX: Handling poison can cause accidental exposure to a dose; doses of the same poison can stack. This seems to lend itself to a one shot per dose mechanic.
Lastly there is one sentence in the description that is very much in line with a one shot per dose mechanic:
Whenever a character attacks with a poisoned weapon, if the attack roll results in a natural 1, he exposes himself to the poison. This consumes the poison on the weapon.
This seems to imply that when you hit something (even if it is yourself) with a poison coated weapon, that dose of poison is consumed and the target is exposed.
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As for the question of how long a poison would stay potent on an unused blade, I would say it's mainly up to the DM to consider time, weather conditions, where and how the blade was kept, and the strength of the poison. I don't believe there are any rules to describe how long a dose will stay potent if unused. It would be reasonable to rule that it would stay potent indefinitely, however, most organic substances to deteriorate over time. I would say that it would stay potent for anywhere between several weeks and several years depending on the strength of the poison and the conditions of where and how the blade was kept.
To be honest, I don't think there is specific text that specifies. At least it isn't in the poison section of the Glossary/PRD. However, to the best of my knowledge all poison even in 3.5 was a one shot per dose deal. You say Drow Poison was different but I don't remember a difference if there was. There were weapon enchantments that would cause a dose to remain potent for two attacks rather than one but other than that I though all poison was one shot per dose.
The new poison description seems to be very "dose" based. EX: Handling poison can cause accidental exposure to a dose; doses of the same poison can stack. This seems to lend itself to a one shot per dose mechanic.
Lastly there is one sentence in the description that is very much in line with a one shot per dose mechanic:
Whenever a character attacks with a poisoned weapon, if the attack roll results in a natural 1, he exposes himself to the poison. This consumes the poison on the weapon.This seems to imply that when you hit something (even if it is yourself) with a poison coated weapon, that dose of poison is consumed and the target is exposed.
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As for the question of how long a poison would stay potent on an unused blade, I would say it's mainly up to the DM to consider time, weather conditions, where and how the blade was kept, and the strength of the poison. I don't believe there are any rules to describe how long a dose will stay potent if unused. It would be reasonable to rule that it would stay potent indefinitely, however, most organic substances to deteriorate over time. I would say that it would stay potent for anywhere between several weeks and several years depending on the strength of the poison and the conditions of where and how the blade was kept.
That's kind of how I was leaning. I was under the impression that it took 3 hits to use up drow poison. I found no duration rules in the handbook.
If they're only good for one hit I can't see investing in poisons unless you have a companion/familiar/or magical access to creating them being a good use of money. If a poisoned blade was good for 3 days, it would be a nice buff. I guess if your character is loaded and doesn't care they could buy lots of expensive poison.
From what I've seen using it, the Pathfinder poison rules *do* make a lot of sense, it's just a rather different mechanic from the 3.5 ones. Knowing the old rules confuses the issue. It's pretty simple:
That's pretty much it.
Not quite defined is what happens when struck multiple times initially. Technically it seems you roll for each to avoid the affliction. However this goes a bit against the "roll once per round" idea, and stacking those up is recommended by at least one designer (Jason or James I believe), in one thread.
I actually prefer to roll each, but either way works about the same. And it would be quite simple to let poisons stack up until the beginning of the player's turn. I may try that out.
From what I've seen using it, the Pathfinder poison rules *do* make a lot of sense, it's just a rather different mechanic from the 3.5 ones. Knowing the old rules confuses the issue. It's pretty simple:
Anytime you're struck with an affliction (like Diseases or Poisons), if you make your initial save you are fine. Not afflicted so to speak. If you fail the initial save, you are afflicted by "poison X". If struck again by X, there is no save and the DC increases by 2 and the duration increases by 50% (i.e. the affliction becomes more severe). The cure remains the same, and there is only one saving throw rolled per round. That's pretty much it.
Not quite defined is what happens when struck multiple times initially. Technically it seems you roll for each to avoid the affliction. However this goes a bit against the "roll once per round" idea, and stacking those up is recommended by at least one designer (Jason or James I believe), in one thread.
I actually prefer to roll each, but either way works about the same. And it would be quite simple to let poisons stack up until the beginning of the player's turn. I may try that out.
The problem with stacking them up is that if you get bit by 3 spiders at DC 14 and the save is one cure, every time you save it resets the DC to 14. If you have the player who just got bit save at DC 18 once that changes the whole mechanic. I read it as you save every time until you are afflicted. Once afflicted you roll once per round and every extra dose increases the duration/dc.
For example, a character is bit three times in the same round by a trio of Medium monstrous spiders, injecting him with three doses of Medium spider venom. The unfortunate character must make a DC 18 Fortitude save for the next 8 rounds. Fortunately, just one successful save cures the character of all three doses of the poison.
If you are struck multiple times in the same round you only make one saving throw and stack the doses to determine DC. If you are struck another time in a following round then there is no save for that individual attack but rather you add that dose to determine the DC of your save for that round.
For example, a character is bit three times in the same round by a trio of Medium monstrous spiders, injecting him with three doses of Medium spider venom. The unfortunate character must make a DC 18 Fortitude save for the next 8 rounds. Fortunately, just one successful save cures the character of all three doses of the poison.If you are struck multiple times in the same round you only make one saving throw and stack the doses to determine DC. If you are struck another time in a following round then there is no save for that individual attack but rather you add that dose to determine the DC of your save for that round.
I believe that is incorrect every time you are hit with an affliction you make a save. Note it say the next round, not that round. If you fail your save the DC's would stack for the next round. Also the first save in that example cures ALL doses and resets the DC.
I believe that is incorrect every time you are hit with an affliction you make a save.
Where in the poison, or even affliction, rules is this language used? Firstly the only place I see similar language is in the general description for all afflictions. It says: "All afflictions grant a saving throw when contracted." That is not the same as saying: You make a save, at the base affliction DC, every time you are hit with an affliction.
Secondly that is, again, in the general description for all afflictions. You cannot base the specific mechanical behavior of Poisons on a description used to describe the general guidelines that afflictions use as a pattern. That sentence was not a "mechanic" it was a general descriptor.
The mechanics for Poison are specified further down in the Poisons section. The first line of the second paragraph under the Poisons states that poison doesn't follow the normal rules for affliction because unlike other afflictions poison can stack in your system. And then it gives an example of how the stacking works.
Note it say the next round, not that round.
That is actually not what it says at all. The quote is: "Must make a DC 18 Fortitude save for the next 8 rounds."
If you fail your save the DC's would stack for the next round. Also the first save in that example cures ALL doses and resets the DC.
There is absolutely nothing in the example here to suggest that he first makes 3 separate DC 14 saves each time individual he is bitten and then the doses he doesn't beat are added to determine the DC of future saves for the next 7 rounds. No, it says he is bitten three times in one round and at the end of those bites he makes one DC 18 save vs. the three doses in his system for the next 8 rounds (the first of those rounds being the round in which he was poisoned).
That is what makes poisons in general so much more dangerous in PF than in old 3.5 rules. If you trigger a trap that hits you with four darts, each tipped with Drow Poison, instead of rolling four DC 13 Fort saves you are rolling one DC 19 Fort save.
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Even if you did want to make it more complicated than that and say he makes a save each time it would not be 3 DC 14 saves. It would be one DC 14 save, then if he passes a second DC 14 save, but if he failed the first, then the second save would be DC 16. If he passes the DC 16 then the third dose is again at DC 14. If he failed the DC 16 then the third dose would be DC 18. This is all discussed at length in the links I provided above. That is the really complicated and drawn out way to do it. Also this is not the accurate way to handle it according to the example given in RAW, the example says there is only one save at DC 18.
Where in the poison, or even affliction, rules is this language used? Firstly the only place I see similar language is in the general description for all afflictions. It says: "All afflictions grant a saving throw when contracted." That is not the same as saying: You make a save, at the base affliction DC, every time you are hit with an affliction.
It seems pretty clear to me that if you make the saving throw when the affliction is contracted, you make it when it's contracted, i.e. when the poison is introduced to your system.
bite save, move on.
That is actually not what it says at all. The quote is: "Must make a DC 18 Fortitude save for the next 8 rounds."
Next round meaning not this round, now If you are saying that he makes no saving throw this round and then makes one at the higher DC the next round instead of this round I can see that being a valid interpretation of this poorly written explanation (not yours, the core rulebook's), but I think he needs to make a save every time he gets bit until he is actually afflicted.
Even if you did want to make it more complicated than that and say he makes a save each time it would not be 3 DC 14 saves. It would be one DC 14 save, then if he passes a second DC 14 save, but if he failed the first, then the second save would be DC 16. If he passes the DC 16 then the third dose is again at DC 14. If he failed the DC 16 then the third dose would be DC 18.
Once your are afflicted with a poison it is clear you can only be affected by it once per round. Thus there is no need to roll once you are afflicted for every new dose, this is where I believe the rounds and DC start increasing. If you rolled every time you got a new dose it wouldn't be very fair because you could make 2 consecutive saves in a row while having no chance of taking more damage from the poison until the next round.
It seems pretty clear to me that if you make the saving throw when the affliction is contracted, you make it when it's contracted, i.e. when the poison is introduced to your system.
Again, however, this sentence was in the general description under Afflictions. It not specifically for poisons nor is it a mechanic.
For example: Go to the Feats section of PRD, scroll to the very first feat, "Acrobatic." Now read the general description: It says: "You are skilled at leaping, jumping, and flying." Now someone who wanted to take that general description as a mechanic could come to you and say, "I can fly, in fact I am quite skilled at it; I have a feat that says so." But that first line is not a mechanic at all, it is a general description used to give you a roundabout idea of what the feat does and an RP way of explaining it in game. The mechanic is the next sentence down. Virtually every feat is written this way, Acrobatic just happened to be the first feat on the list and suited my example perfectly. It is the same with Afflictions/Poison; in fact it is the same with the way many things are written.
That said, the mechanics for saves and onsets do seem to imply that each individual attack gets its own save. This is addressed in the links I provided up-thread. I will address this contradiction with poison further down in my post.
Next round meaning not this round, now If you are saying that he makes no saving throw this round and then makes one at the higher DC the next round instead of this round I can see that being a valid interpretation of this poorly written explanation (not yours, the core rulebook's), but I think he needs to make a save every time he gets bit until he is actually afflicted.
I don't think for the next 8 rounds is meant to be synonymous with in the next round. It is simple language. He has been injected with poison three times, the base poison is 4 rounds and each stacking dose adds 2 rounds so the total is 8. How else do you suggest they write that you must make a DC 18 save against the poison each round for the next 8 rounds? Since this poison has no onset delay the first round of the 8 rounds is the round in which you get poisoned.
Once your are afflicted with a poison it is clear you can only be affected by it once per round. Thus there is no need to roll once you are afflicted for every new dose, this is where I believe the rounds and DC start increasing. If you rolled every time you got a new dose it wouldn't be very fair because you could make 2 consecutive saves in a row while having no chance of taking more damage from the poison until the next round.
I have not seen any RAW that would lead to that conclusion. There is language that says you make a save each time you are afflicted and there is language/examples that say you only make one at the end of a series of poison attacks. There is nothing to say that you make a save for the initial poison and then make no saves after that for additional doses, nor is it implied by any examples that this is the correct way to handle it.
If you want to make a save for each dose of poison it would look like this: You roll, and fail, the DC 14 save the moment you are hit then you have already taken the first round of poison leaving only 3 rounds to go. The second attack adds 2 rounds if you fail the DC 16 save and you suffer the initial effects a second time. The third attack adds 2 rounds if you fail the DC 18 save and you suffer the initial effects a third time. After that you make a DC 18 save for 7 more rounds suffering the effects once per round until the poison is out of your system.
If you want to make only one save per round then you wait until all poison attacks are made and roll a single save with the DC equal to the total stacked DC of the total doses of poison. This is in line with the example given in the Poison section where the character is attacked with three poison attacks and must then make a DC 18 save for the next 8 rounds, the first round of which would be the round he was poisoned.
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I believe part of the confusion you and I are having here is based on the fact that RAW gives two contradictory explanations without a justifying method of reconciling them:
By RAW you should get a separate save each time you are afflicted. However, by the RAW example given for poison you are afflicted by three doses of poison in the same round and instead only roll one save at a DC equal to their stacking total.
The reason for this is explained by Nethys in the links I provided above. He says that by RAW you make a separate save for each dose of poison, at the moment of poisoning, with the DC rising with each consecutive dose; however, it is recommended for multiple creatures with the same poison you let them go on the same initiative count and roll a single save vs. the total stacked DC. That is why the affliction section says you get a save every time but the poison example shows the victim only getting one DC 18 save for three doses of Medium Spider Venom inflicted in the same round.
This is detailed in the following posts by Nethys:
First, Second, Third
Again, however, this sentence was in the general description under Afflictions. It not specifically for poisons nor is it a mechanic.For example: Go to the Feats section of PRD, scroll to the very first feat, "Acrobatic." Now read the general description: It says: "You are skilled at leaping, jumping, and flying." Now someone who wanted to take that general description as a mechanic could come to you and say, "I can fly, in fact I am quite skilled at it; I have a feat that says so." But that first line is not a mechanic at all, it is a general description used to give you a roundabout idea of what the feat does and an RP way of explaining it in game. The mechanic is the next sentence down. Virtually every feat is written this way, Acrobatic just happened to be the first feat on the list and suited my example perfectly. It is the same with Afflictions/Poison; in fact it is the same with the way many things are written.
My statement was not about fluff in the description as your example of acrobatics implies. The core rules state that EVERY time you come in contact with an affliction(poisons are an affliction) you are given a save. If you are bit by 3 snakes, you are inflicted with 3 doses, just like if you are hit with 3 diseased bites, you make a save each time you come in contact. However, if you make your first save, you're unaffected, why would the save go up vs. the second bite? That doesn't make any sense from a gameplay standpoint either, as you have if the snakes go, then you go, then the assassin goes with the same poison as the snakes, you have to save again at a new higher DC? Did your first save not matter? This is IMO a very poor way to play poisons at the table
I believe this is correct by RAW
1 You save against every instance of poison. If you never fail a save you do not become afflicted and the DC/duration does not increase.
2 If you fail a save, you do not roll any more saves against that poison except once per round at a new higher DC based on how many doses were introduced to your system. You can only take poison damage from an injury/contact poison once a round, you shouldn't have multiple chances to cure the poison with no chance of taking more damage. This roll probably needs to be made at the start of your initiative.
3 If you meet the conditions to cure a poison, any new doses added to your system should be at the base DC until you are afflicted again, and then the DC/duration begins to increase again.
I realize the book's description is very unclear and can be easily interpretted many ways, but this is how I will play it until an official answer is given.
I believe this is correct by RAW
1. You save against every instance of poison. If you never fail a save you do not become afflicted and the DC/duration does not increase.
I think this is correct unless the poison requires two saves. I think being bitten automatically makes you poison, but the save negates(cures) the affect for that round. If the poison has is a 1 save poison the poison is done away with, can does not add to the effectiveness of other bites.
If its a 2 save poison the poison is still in your system, and seems to count towards the DC and increase in frequency. Luckily there are not to many multi-save poisons.
From the PRD
Contact poisons are contracted the moment someone touches the poisonwith his bare skin. Such poisons can be used as injury poisons. Contact poisons usually have an onset time of 1 minute and a frequency of 1 minute. Ingested poisons are contracted when a creature eats or drinks the poison. Ingested poisons usually have an onset time of 10 minutes and a frequency of 1 minute. Injury poisons are primarily contracted through the attacks of certain creatures and through weapons coated in the toxin.Cure: This tells you how the affliction is cured.. Commonly, this is a number of saving throws that must be made consecutively...... No matter how many saving throws are made, these afflictions continue to affect the target.
This leads me to beleive the contraction of the poison is immediate, and it is not cured until the number of saves are made. If the all the requisite number of saves have not been made you are afflicted and the saves will incur a higher DC.
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However, if you make your first save, you're unaffected, why would the save go up vs. the second bite?
It doesn't, what gave you that impression? If you make the save you are unaffected. If you fail the save you are poisoned and at that point future doses stack.
2 If you fail a save, you do not roll any more saves against that poison except once per round at a new higher DC based on how many doses were introduced to your system. You can only take poison damage from an injury/contact poison once a round, you shouldn't have multiple chances to cure the poison with no chance of taking more damage. This roll probably needs to be made at the start of your initiative.
I would like to hear how you came to this conclusion based on anything in the Poison threads or RAW, the methods of determining how to stack poisons and handle multiple attacks/doses has been clearly outlined by Nethys and others.
@ concerro:
When you are exposed to poison/afflictions you make an initial save to avoid contracting the affliction. If successful you are not affected by the poison. If unsuccessful you contract the affliction and must then roll additional saves to cure the affliction.
Save: This gives the type of save necessary to avoid contracting the affliction, as well as the DC of that save. Unless otherwise noted, this is also the save to avoid the affliction's effects once it is contracted, as well as the DC of any caster level checks needed to end the affliction through magic, such as remove curse or neutralize poison.
Onset: Some afflictions have a variable amount of time before they set in. Creatures that come in contact with an affliction with an onset time must make a saving throw immediately. Success means that the affliction is avoided and no further saving throws must be made. Failure means that the creature has contracted the affliction and must begin making additional saves after the onset period has elapsed. The affliction's effect does not occur until after the onset period has elapsed and then only if further saving throws are failed.
@ concerro:
When you are exposed to poison/afflictions you make an initial save to avoid contracting the affliction. If successful you are not affected by the poison. If unsuccessful you contract the affliction and must then roll additional saves to cure the affliction.
Save: This gives the type of save necessary to avoid contracting the affliction, as well as the DC of that save. Unless otherwise noted, this is also the save to avoid the affliction's effects once it is contracted, as well as the DC of any caster level checks needed to end the affliction through magic, such as remove curse or neutralize poison.
Onset: Some afflictions have a variable amount of time before they set in. Creatures that come in contact with an affliction with an onset time must make a saving throw immediately. Success means that the affliction is avoided and no further saving throws must be made. Failure means that the creature has contracted the affliction and must begin making additional saves after the onset period has elapsed. The affliction's effect does not occur until after the onset period has elapsed and then only if further saving throws are failed.
My comment was more toward the rare poisons with 2 saves to cure them. For the ones with 1, I agree only one save is needed.
My comment was more toward the rare poisons with 2 saves to cure them. For the ones with 1, I agree only one save is needed.
That would be a really good house-rule to make poisons more dangerous, but not the way it is supposed to work.
When exposed you get a save to determine whether or not you contract the affliction.
If you pass the save you do not suffer any effects.
If you fail the save then you roll another save each round until you have satisfied the terms of curing it (IE: 1 successful save or 2 successful saves in a row).
My comment was more toward the rare poisons with 2 saves to cure them. For the ones with 1, I agree only one save is needed.That would be a really good house-rule to make poisons more dangerous, but not the way it is supposed to work.
When exposed you get a save to determine whether or not you contract the affliction.
If you pass the save you do not suffer any effects.
If you fail the save then you roll another save each round until you have satisfied the terms of curing it (IE: 1 successful save or 2 successful saves in a row).
Save: This gives the type of save necessary to avoid contracting the affliction, as well as the DC of that save. Unless otherwise noted, this is also the save to avoid the affliction's effects once it is contracted, as well as the DC of any caster level checks needed to end the affliction through magic, such as remove curse or neutralize poison.
Contact poisons are contracted the moment someone touches the poison with his bare skin. Such poisons can be used as injury poisons. Contact poisons usually have an onset time of 1 minute and a frequency of 1 minute. Ingested poisons are contracted when a creature eats or drinks the poison. Ingested poisons usually have an onset time of 10 minutes and a frequency of 1 minute. Injury poisons are primarily contracted through the attacks of certain creatures and through weapons coated in the toxin.
I am reading this as--> for most afflictions you get save to avoid contracting it, but the poison contraction is immediate, not that its immediate unless you make a save. Now that could be what they meant but since poisons have slightly different rules than the other afflictions it should have been stated in that matter if that was the intent.
@ Concerro
Ok, now I see what you are saying. And to be honest you have me stumped at the moment. I read over those sections again and there is a definite difference in the language between normal affliction contraction and poison contraction. You may be right. I will scour the other poison threads to see if this is addressed.
@ Concerro
Ok, now I see what you are saying. And to be honest you have me stumped at the moment. I read over those sections again and there is a definite difference in the language between normal affliction contraction and poison contraction. You may be right. I will scour the other poison threads to see if this is addressed.
Have you ever found a definitive answer to this?
I too am wondering if a poison that runs for 4 rounds (for example) would require at most 4 saves or 5 saves (with the initial save).
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However, if you make your first save, you're unaffected, why would the save go up vs. the second bite?It doesn't, what gave you that impression? If you make the save you are unaffected. If you fail the save you are poisoned and at that point future doses stack.
You stated that if he's bit by 3 poisonous creatures he makes one save at the higher DC. I think he will continue to make the lower DC save until he fails it. He is not afflicted until he fails one, so the save wouldn't go up. It may be that we agree on this point and are just wording it differently.
2 If you fail a save, you do not roll any more saves against that poison except once per round at a new higher DC based on how many doses were introduced to your system. You can only take poison damage from an injury/contact poison once a round, you shouldn't have multiple chances to cure the poison with no chance of taking more damage. This roll probably needs to be made at the start of your initiative.I would like to hear how you came to this conclusion based on anything in the Poison threads or RAW, the methods of determining how to stack poisons and handle multiple attacks/doses has been clearly outlined by Nethys and others.
You roll a save once per round once you are poisoned. It's specifically written in the poison description. What is your question here? Maybe I'm not understanding what you're asking totally.
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However, if you make your first save, you're unaffected, why would the save go up vs. the second bite?It doesn't, what gave you that impression? If you make the save you are unaffected. If you fail the save you are poisoned and at that point future doses stack.You stated that if he's bit by 3 poisonous creatures he makes one save at the higher DC. I think he will continue to make the lower DC save until he fails it. He is not afflicted until he fails one, so the save wouldn't go up. It may be that we agree on this point and are just wording it differently.
You roll a save once per round once you are poisoned. It's specifically written in the poison description. What is your question here? Maybe I'm not understanding what you're asking totally.
2 If you fail a save, you do not roll any more saves against that poison except once per round at a new higher DC based on how many doses were introduced to your system. You can only take poison damage from an injury/contact poison once a round, you shouldn't have multiple chances to cure the poison with no chance of taking more damage. This roll probably needs to be made at the start of your initiative.I would like to hear how you came to this conclusion based on anything in the Poison threads or RAW, the methods of determining how to stack poisons and handle multiple attacks/doses has been clearly outlined by Nethys and others.
The general affliction rules say you do not contract the afflicted until you fail a save. Poison saves you contract the affiction immediately, and you dont get rid of it until you make the required number of saves. The way it read is that you are poisoned immediately without a save, but if you make the save you avoid the affects of the poison. Contracting the affliction does not mean you will suffer a penalty, but contracting the affliction does mean you are subject to a higher from multiple doses.
This difference is a mute point in with "one save" poisons because if you make the initial save you are cured, but for rare poison that require two saves, even if you make the first one the poison is still active.
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This difference is a mute point in with "one save" poisons because if you make the initial save you are cured, ...
Well, not exactly a moot point even in the cases of one-save poisons. It is true that, if the first save (whether it is an "affliction" save or a save "to resist the effects") is successful, you do not suffer from the poison, but if the first save fails, the outcomme is diffent:
- If it is an "affliction" save, it just means that you will get another chance (another save) before you might start to feel the effects of the poison, while- If there is no "affliction" save, you immediately start to feel the effects.
I really can't make up my mind or determine whether Mr Bulmahn wanted to mean that there is or isn't an initial "affliction" save for poisons. Both solutions could work, though the "affliction" save might make poisons weaker than intended, I don't know. Per the rules, poisons seem to allow for an initial "affliction" save, but, in 3.5, only diseases allowed for an initial "completely avoid the affliction" save (then again, poisons and diseases were completly separate rule elements back then).
This difference is a mute point in with "one save" poisons because if you make the initial save you are cured, ...Well, not exactly a moot point even in the cases of one-save poisons. It is true that, if the first save (whether it is an "affliction" save or a save "to resist the effects") is successful, you do not suffer from the poison, but if the first save fails, the outcomme is diffent:
- If it is an "affliction" save, it just means that you will get another chance (another save) before you might start to feel the effects of the poison, while
- If there is no "affliction" save, you immediately start to feel the effects.I really can't make up my mind or determine whether Mr Bulmahn wanted to mean that there is or isn't an initial "affliction" save for poisons. Both solutions could work, though the "affliction" save might make poisons weaker than intended, I don't know. Per the rules, poisons seem to allow for an initial "affliction" save, but, in 3.5, only diseases allowed for an initial "completely avoid the affliction" save (then again, poisons and diseases were completly separate rule elements back then).
I was saying its a moot point because if its a one save poison and you make the initial save the second save never takes place, but for a two-save poison you can make the first save, and still be afflicted in the 2nd round.
Have you ever found a definitive answer to this?
The short answer would be: No, I have not. It is not discussed on any of the other poison threads that I know of and the wording in the book is not specific enough for me to base any decision on with 100% conviction.
I do realize that there is a notable difference between the wording of regular afflictions and the wording of poisons when it comes to contraction, but I am unsure if that is deliberate since there is no explicit wording to go with it. It never comes out and explicitly states Concerro's conclusion that there is not initial save vs. contraction. I will admit that the wording does seem to lean in his direction a bit. I don't know if that lean is enough, IMO, to base a rule on without explicit wording to back it up. Ultimately I am undecided.
You stated that if he's bit by 3 poisonous creatures he makes one save at the higher DC. I think he will continue to make the lower DC save until he fails it. He is not afflicted until he fails one, so the save wouldn't go up. It may be that we agree on this point and are just wording it differently.
The reason I said that is because that is what the example shows in the book. It is also in line with the way poison has been explained in the threads that I pointed you to. If the example intended to convey what you are saying it would be totally different.
Example according to your stance:
The PC is bitten by three medium monstrous spiders in the same round. He makes an initial save DC 14 and fails. He makes no further saves that round and the second and third doses of poison stack with the effects of the initial poison. Due to the stacking of poison the PC must now beat a DC 18 save each round for the next 7 rounds beginning with the following round.
In addition, had the PC succeeded on the initial DC 14 save he would have continued to make an initial DC 14 save for each of the following two attacks until either he failed on an initial save or had succeeded on saves against all attacks.
However, that is not what the example in the book says. Far from it in fact, it says this:
For example, a character is bit three times in the same round by a trio of Medium monstrous spiders, injecting him with three doses of Medium spider venom. The unfortunate character must make a DC 18 Fortitude save for the next 8 rounds. Fortunately, just one successful save cures the character of all three doses of the poison.
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You roll a save once per round once you are poisoned. It's specifically written in the poison description. What is your question here? Maybe I'm not understanding what you're asking totally.
Either you roll once per round or you roll for each dose of poison, which is it?
There is nothing in the poison section that talks about rolling for each dose of poison individually, the example is clear that there is only one roll and it is taken against a DC that reflects ALL of the doses you have in your system.
You are saying: You roll for each dose of poison individually until you fail and are afflicted. After that you no longer roll saves against each dose of poison individually but rather roll a single save each round against all doses currently stacked in your system.
My question is, how you got to that conclusion? because I see no language in the poisons section or in the afflictions section that would lead to that.
Afflictions
From curses to poisons to diseases, there are a number of afflictions that can affect a creature. While each of these afflictions has a different effect, they all function using the same basic system. All afflictions grant a saving throw when they are contracted.
This is how I read it
I will do the one save poisons first.
It seems that each bite forces a save.
If you make your save then that bite, does not apply to the DC of the next bite because you are not poisoned due to the save.
If you go into round two poisoned, but you are not bitten during round 2, then you only make one save, but its modified by the number of saves failed or made from round one.
If you are bitten in round two then you make a save immediately, which is modified by the number of saves or failed saves from round 1.
I was going to explain the 2 save poison, but its easier to make a flowchart. I will try to get it done tonight, and post it somewhere.
PS: I am not always good at explaining things so if I need to make it easier to understand just let me know.
Afflictions
From curses to poisons to diseases, there are a number of afflictions that can affect a creature. While each of these afflictions has a different effect, they all function using the same basic system. All afflictions grant a saving throw when they are contracted.
This is how I read it
I will do the one save poisons first.
It seems that each bite forces a save.
I understand grasshopper_ea's stance. And I understand that you get one saving throw per contracted affliction based on the affliction rules. But that is not how the example in the poisons section shows it.
Actually if you were right and with poisons you do not receive a save to negate contracting the affliction but instead only receive one save per round to avoid the effects until you succeed on enough saves to be cured it would explain why the example is written the way it is.
Afflictions
From curses to poisons to diseases, there are a number of afflictions that can affect a creature. While each of these afflictions has a different effect, they all function using the same basic system. All afflictions grant a saving throw when they are contracted.
This is how I read it
I will do the one save poisons first.
It seems that each bite forces a save.
I understand grasshopper_ea's stance. And I understand that you get one saving throw per contracted affliction based on the affliction rules. But that is not how the example in the poisons section shows it.
Actually if you were right and with poisons you do not receive a save to negate contracting the affliction but instead only receive one save per round to avoid the effects until you succeed on enough saves to be cured it would explain why the example is written the way it is.
I do think its not written well, so I really can't debate how it was intended to work. I would like an official example of how both the 1 and 2 save poisons work, but I understand the playtest has everyone tied up right now.
Here's another opinion on the rules. I do think they are ambiguous in terms of how to resolve multiple applications of a poison. But, this is how I see things for medium spider venom (1 save) and purple worm poison (2 saves) for a single attack.
All afflictions go through these phases.
1) Initial contact
2) Onset
3) Application of effects
First medium spider venom.
If you are hit by a medium spider, make a DC 14 save to see if you are affected.
If you are not affected, you are done.
If you are affected, wait the onset period. For medium spider venom, the onset is 0 rounds.
After the onset period (immediately), make a DC 14 save in this round and for the next 3 rounds (4 rounds total). Take 1d2 STR damage on a failed save, or the poison leaves your system completely on a successful save.
Now purple worm poison.
If you are hit by a purple worm, make a DC 24 save to see if you are affected.
If you are not affected, you are done.
If you are affected, wait the onset period. For purple worm poison, the onset is 0 rounds.
After the onset period (immediately), make a DC 24 save in this round and for the next 5 rounds (6 rounds total). Take 1d3 STR damage on a failed save. On a successful save, take no damage. If your prior save was also successful, the poison has left your system.
So, my take is for all curses, diseases, and poisons, you get a save to avoid it entirely. If you fail, you wait the onset period (0 or more rounds), and then start making saves to avoid effects from the affliction. I don't interpret the first failure to avoid the affliction as the roll you use as the first roll when applying the frequency of the effects (ie, autofail for an affliction with no onset time).
For applying multiple doses of the poison, this is my interpretation, which is much more subjective. This is slightly counter to the example in the book, but self-consistent with the rules given. My opinion is the example contains an off-by-one error. Anyway.
First round you are hit by the purple worm, make a dc 24 save. If you succeed, you are not poisoned.
If you are poisoned, make a dc 24 save immediately to avoid 1d3 STR damage.
Later in the same round, you are struck by another purple worm. Make a dc 24 save to avoid the effects. If you succeed, no additional poison enters your system. Think of it as a dry hole in terms of snakebites. For whatever reason, no additional poison was delivered. The save to avoid additional venom was not adjusted by the fact you are currently poisoned by the same type. It is DC 24 even if you have 10 purple worm doses in you at that moment.
If you fail, the subsequent DCs are +2 (DC 26) and the duration is extended by 3 rounds. This bite does not trigger another save to determine the effects. It only changes the DC and duration moving forward.
The number of saves required in a row is not changed, and if the person was lucky enough to make the first DC 24 save after being affected by the poison in round 1, they can end all poison effects by making a DC 26 save in the second round (assuming they receive no additional doses of the poison) beforehand. If the save is failed, they are back to needing 2 consecutive DC 26 saves to clear the poison.
My $0.02.
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I vote for this last option, written by FarmerBob. That seems the most logical for me.
The core rulebook will definitely need an errata for poisons. Until that time we can only house rule it and continue endless debates. I would welcome an offical posting from a lead designer here in these topics. I think all of us would do.
As part of this house ruling of the unclarified rules, I would also recommend using one option mentioned earlier in one of the poison topics:
Secondary saves (all saves vs damage, thus excluding the initial save) should be made at the beginning of the poisoned creature's turn.
Agreed -- we discussed the poison rules in my group, and came to the same conclusion, i.e. that all afflictions have an initial save (vs. contracting it or not), and failing this save DOES NOT incur the penalties of the effect. Rather, you contract the affliction and your next save -- the first save against the effects -- happens at the beginning of your next round.
But the wording could definitely be clearer, and I hope this will be clarified in FAQ or on one of these threads.
I also agree with FarmerBob here.
as I see it and think as it should be :
you make an initial save to avoid the affliction every time you get bitten, once you fail one you are 'poisoned'.
you get the say 1d3 strength damage,
(dc 14, 6 rounds poison, cure one save)
you get bitten twice more before the next round, this does not grant a save, but instead adds to the DC and duration of the poison effect.
(so it becomes dc 18, 12 rounds)
when next round comes up you make the save at the same point you originally aquired the 'poisoned' condition, if you save you are cured, if you fail you get another 1d3 strength damage and the poison lasts 11 more rounds.
at this point you could be in real trouble if you stick around and get bitten a few more times, but on the bright side the ability damage isn't as high as it was in 3.5 and you usually do last a good while before you completely collapse, since you can't get ability damage more than once per round from the same poison.
Dredge it up and pull it out, I figured since the APG has the Alchemist and a Rogue poison-based variant, it might be time to take another look at this thread, and do some FAQ-flagging.