Hello there, I finally got my Bestiary, after Amazon and the Amazon Marketplace repeatedly failed me and I managed to grab a copy at a local store.
Now I'm preparing to GM a campaign with some friends, I know that at least one of the players is going to want to play a monstrous race. Most likely Lizardfolk. So I checked the Bestiary and the guidelines for monstrous PCs out and found almost all I needed, except for one thing:
How do I figure out the Ability modifiers for each monstrous race?
Is it the same technique as in 3.5? To round down all uneven ability scores to the next even number and then substract 10?
For some races that seems to check out, while others (from between the list of recommended powerful monster PCs in the core book) seem unusually powerful. Of course I know that the Bestiary races aren't balanced out like the core book races, but it still seemed a bit too much.
PS:
On an only partly related note: Do you guys at Paizo really hate Kobolds so much or are their features really so powerful that it would justify a -4, +2, -2 ability array in a game where a standard race usually has +2, +2, -2?
I think kobolds are meant to be a weak race.
Easiest thing for a PC playing a kobold is to just give them the standard race stat bonuses and say they're a paragon among kobolds, which maybe explains why they're off adventuring elsewhere rather than hanging out with their idiot clutchmates.
@Murphy
That's horribly weak, considering they supposedly descended from dragons. Well I was thinking about adding +2 Charisma and an extra +2 Dexterity (or remove the Con penalty)
@Jacob
Thanks. I didn't really bother to check out the sutff i thought i knew already before.
By the way, generally I really like what happened with the Monster character level system, now that not every single hit die counts as a +1 to ECL and some extra level adjustment is waiting right around the corner too. I've been wondering in 3.x why would a creature, that amounts to a mediocre challenge for a lvl 5 character only be playable in a party of level 8 or higher. So on that part kudos to Paizo!
@Murphy
That's horribly weak, considering they supposedly descended from dragons. Well I was thinking about adding +2 Charisma and an extra +2 Dexterity (or remove the Con penalty)
That argument is like saying we should make Awakened tree shrews more powerful because they're related to King Kong.
And even if we go directly with "descended from" rather than just "related to," a chihuahua is descended from a wolf.
Kobolds are the chihuahuas of the dragon family.
Kobolds are the chihuahuas of the dragon family.
Does that mean we are going to be subjected to 'Beverly Hills Kobold' next summer?
Creative Director
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On an only partly related note: Do you guys at Paizo really hate Kobolds so much or are their features really so powerful that it would justify a -4, +2, -2 ability array in a game where a standard race usually has +2, +2, -2?
Actually, we quite like kobolds. In fact, for some time "Pathfinder" was going to be called "Kobold" as a play on going from the toughest monster (dragon) to the weakest but still notorious monster (kobold), back when we lost the D&D magazine licenses. And that's also why our first module was all about kobolds.
Kobolds are SUPPOSED to be among the weakest monsters in the game. They're not PC races. They're monsters. You can certainly play a kobold in a game, but frankly, part of the draw to play a kobold is the fact that you're a scrappy underdog who perseveres despite the fact that you're less powerful than most races.
As for figuring out monster racial adjustments, all you need to do is subtract 10 from the even-numbered stats and 11 from the odd-numbered stats and presto, there's your ability score modifiers.
Does that mean we are going to be subjected to 'Beverly Hills Kobold' next summer?
Damn I hope so!
Kobolds! Kobolds! Kobolds!
*grin*
(What do you expect at 4:30am after taking two vicodin for pain?)
(Purple smells like citrus.)
(What do you expect at 4:30am after taking two vicodin for pain?)
Call people idiots, make rude remarks at your boss, and solve a medical mystery!
scrappy underdog who perseveres despite the fact that you're less powerful than most races.
I maintain that the other races keep them around as a source of amusement.
@Murphy
That's horribly weak, considering they supposedly descended from dragons.
Supposedly. I mean, it's the kobolds saying that. I once met a kobold who said he was the lovechild of Calistria and Cayden Cailean and as such wanted free beer and hooker because it was his "birthright". Don't trust the scaled rats!
Plus, they're supposed to be horribly weak. They're supposed to be the critter you can kill by the dozen - even at 1st level. Someone has to be the bottom of the hacking order.
I'd rather have dwarves fill that role, too, but what can you do, some madmen insist on having them as a standard race.
Call people idiots, make rude remarks at your boss, and solve a medical mystery!
(What do you expect at 4:30am after taking two vicodin for pain?)
I'm glad I'm off today!
As for Kobolds being descended from dragons, I figure if they can back it up by breathing fire or something, I will agree.
Oh wait, I do agree!
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On an only partly related note: Do you guys at Paizo really hate Kobolds so much or are their features really so powerful that it would justify a -4, +2, -2 ability array in a game where a standard race usually has +2, +2, -2?
For PC use, I'd allow a Kobold to be exceptional and have PC like stats, while the rest of his race would remain weaker than average.
This could be done by just giving the Kobold (or Goblin) player a higher point-buy to work with and letting them use the standard racial modifiers, or by making them use the same point-buy, but giving them better than normal 'racial stats,' representing that they are an uncommon advanced member of their species (kind of like how in earlier editions there were 'advanced' troglodytes and 'civilized' lizard men with different Intelligence scores).
My 'Kobolds' are dog/ape people, with no ties at all to dragons.
The dragon-descended little people are called Wyrmkin, and have some racial abilities depending upon which color of chromatic dragon they are descended from (most abilities the same, but energy resistance of 1 / HD of the appropriate type, based on color). Wyrmkin can breed true, but the origin of their species is from unfertilized dragon eggs, which female dragons lay a couple of every year, which hatch to produce a half-dozen or so wyrmkin, who remain loyal to their 'mother,' if their mother wants the little runts running around. Many female dragons simply devour unfertilized eggs, or leave them somewhere to plague someone else, having no desire to have a brood of the little scaly pests underfoot, no matter how diligently they tidy up the lair or how devotedly they polish her scales.
While I generally loathe the proliferation of redundant humanoid races in a setting, I just don't like mixing up the Kobold of 1st and 2nd edition with the dragon-descended critters of 3rd edition. Both seem like neat ideas, and occupy different niches, so I use both.
When it comes to stat bonuses, even in 'exceptional' (PC) cases, I'd limit the Kobold to having a -2 Str and +2 Dex, with no third stat bonus, to compensate for the +1 natural armor bonus and / or 30 ft. ground speed at Small size, both of which are fairly nice bonuses to have. Even 'buffed up' for PC use, I wouldn't give them the +2/+2/-2 of an Elf or Dwarf. Indeed, because of the dragon-related abilities (limited energy resistance, bonuses to relevant skills, like Swim for Black and Green wyrmkin) I give the Wyrmkin, I drop them down to 20 ft. ground speed.
On an only partly related note: Do you guys at Paizo really hate Kobolds so much or are their features really so powerful that it would justify a -4, +2, -2 ability array in a game where a standard race usually has +2, +2, -2?Actually, we quite like kobolds. In fact, for some time "Pathfinder" was going to be called "Kobold" as a play on going from the toughest monster (dragon) to the weakest but still notorious monster (kobold), back when we lost the D&D magazine licenses. And that's also why our first module was all about kobolds.
Kobolds are SUPPOSED to be among the weakest monsters in the game. They're not PC races. They're monsters. You can certainly play a kobold in a game, but frankly, part of the draw to play a kobold is the fact that you're a scrappy underdog who perseveres despite the fact that you're less powerful than most races.
As for figuring out monster racial adjustments, all you need to do is subtract 10 from the even-numbered stats and 11 from the odd-numbered stats and presto, there's your ability score modifiers.
Im sorry for that assumption then.
I have a new question, how do you handle features, such as Feats, BAB, Skills and all on a monstrous PC whose ECL is smaller than his number of Hit Dice.
For example a Lizardfolk Fighter with 3 Fighter levels (+ CR 1 makes him ECL 4, but with his racial HD he has 5 HD altogether), do you count in all of these features like he was Level 4 or like he was level 5?
If you count every hit die it would come up to 3 Feats (not counting Fighter bonus feats) a BAB of +4 and gotten skill points 5 times.
If you count his ECL he would have only 2 Feats, 4 times skill points and I'm not actually sure what his BAB would be.
I have a new question, how do you handle features, such as Feats, BAB, Skills and all on a monstrous PC whose ECL is smaller than his number of Hit Dice.
For example a Lizardfolk Fighter with 3 Fighter levels (+ CR 1 makes him ECL 4, but with his racial HD he has 5 HD altogether), do you count in all of these features like he was Level 4 or like he was level 5?If you count every hit die it would come up to 3 Feats (not counting Fighter bonus feats) a BAB of +4 and gotten skill points 5 times.
If you count his ECL he would have only 2 Feats, 4 times skill points and I'm not actually sure what his BAB would be.
Feats always go off hit dice. So, a lizardfolk with 3 fighter levels would have 5 levels of hit dice, and thus have 3 feats (1st, 3rd, 5th). BAB, saves, etc always go off hit dice as well. Mainly because racial hit dice don't really give you much in the way of boosts, they tend to be like commoner levels.
One thing I do for players playing monstrous races is let them convert racial hit dice to class levels in a class instead, as if the monster in the book were the commoner/adept/etc version (like a sheepherder would be vs a human pc). Then I recalculate the CR to see if there is an adjustment. For lizardfolk I usually drop the CR to 2 from 4, and turn the 2 racial hit dice into class levels. Seems to work so far.
Feats always go off hit dice. So, a lizardfolk with 3 fighter levels would have 5 levels of hit dice, and thus have 3 feats (1st, 3rd, 5th). BAB, saves, etc always go off hit dice as well. Mainly because racial hit dice don't really give you much in the way of boosts, they tend to be like commoner levels.
One thing I do for players playing monstrous races is let them convert racial hit dice to class levels in a class instead, as if the monster in the book were the commoner/adept/etc version (like a sheepherder would be vs a human pc). Then I recalculate the CR to see if there is an adjustment. For lizardfolk I usually drop the CR to 2 from 4, and turn the 2 racial hit dice into class levels. Seems to work so far.
True, they are like commoner levels but they come with racial features such as +5 Natural armour, claws, bite, swim speed and Hold Breath.
Sure other races have racial features too, and even more of them, but a natural armour bonus of +5 is pretty radical. With as much as a good dexterity bonus and a set of medium armour the armour class goes out of the hittable range for low level characters.
Feats always go off hit dice. So, a lizardfolk with 3 fighter levels would have 5 levels of hit dice, and thus have 3 feats (1st, 3rd, 5th). BAB, saves, etc always go off hit dice as well. Mainly because racial hit dice don't really give you much in the way of boosts, they tend to be like commoner levels.
One thing I do for players playing monstrous races is let them convert racial hit dice to class levels in a class instead, as if the monster in the book were the commoner/adept/etc version (like a sheepherder would be vs a human pc). Then I recalculate the CR to see if there is an adjustment. For lizardfolk I usually drop the CR to 2 from 4, and turn the 2 racial hit dice into class levels. Seems to work so far.
True, they are like commoner levels but they come with racial features such as +5 Natural armour, claws, bite, swim speed and Hold Breath.
Sure other races have racial features too, and even more of them, but a natural armour bonus of +5 is pretty radical. With as much as a good dexterity bonus and a set of medium armour the armour class goes out of the hittable range for low level characters.
Agreed, but I don't consider that +5 NAB as coming from the racial hit dice. I consider that to be part of the race itself. If they never had racial hit dice, they'd still have natural armor. Nothing in their growing up transforms them so they have the armor, it's part of their bodies. In other words, it's biological, not cultural. If you took a baby lizardfolk in the egg and raised him up amongst humans so he took Adept levels instead of racial hit dice, he'd still have the armor.
That's why I personally cut the CR in half for lizardfolks, I figure half their CR comes from racial bonuses and half from racial hit dice. Then replace the racial hit dice with class hit dice as appropriate. Then their CR = class level +1 (class level - 1 + 2 really). I run a monster game, and so far it's working nicely. The PC's are in the swamps now, which are populated by lizardfolk and catfolk.
Agreed, but I don't consider that +5 NAB as coming from the racial hit dice. I consider that to be part of the race itself. If they never had racial hit dice, they'd still have natural armor. Nothing in their growing up transforms them so they have the armor, it's part of their bodies. In other words, it's biological, not cultural. If you took a baby lizardfolk in the egg and raised him up amongst humans so he took Adept levels instead of racial hit dice, he'd still have the armor.
That's why I personally cut the CR in half for lizardfolks, I figure half their CR comes from racial bonuses and half from racial hit dice. Then replace the racial hit dice with class hit dice as appropriate. Then their CR = class level +1 (class level - 1 + 2 really). I run a monster game, and so far it's working nicely. The PC's are in the swamps now,...
Where it comes from becomes rather trivial considering how powerful this feature is. As I said, other races have racial features too, but this +5 gets me worried that the Lizardfolk player becomes almost invulnerable (the only thing stopping him would be touch attacks). I think the player can live with 2d8 HD without class features to substitute his first level. I mean he does get closer to the next feat, has more skill points, than, say a fighter or similar, has higher maximum ranks and a lot of hit points to start with.
I'm actually concerned he is too powerful this way. I don't see changing racial HD to class levels will help very much, I want to start from level one. My idea was to have monster characters up to CR 1 allowed but strarting without class levels and when the party reaches 2nd level I would let them advance to their first class level.Unless... If i would still go down this road start with a class-less lizardfolk warrior and instead of giving him an extra level at level 2 and 3 i would convert one of his HD into a class, say Fighter, and only on level 4 he would start actually advancing....
Would this mount up, to what you have been describing? I think I could work with that. Then he would actually stay behind in skills feats and everything.
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All this discussion is why the Bestiary says, "Monsters are not designed with the rules for players in mind" (313). From a mechanical perspective, I'd say house rule whatever you and your group feel to be balanced. That may well have to be handled on a case-by-case basis such as nerfing the lizard and buffing the kobold. From a roleplaying perspective, I'd make the player come up with a darn good backstory, and a reason why the other PCs would allow a cannibal (195) to adventure with them.
All this discussion is why the Bestiary says, "Monsters are not designed with the rules for players in mind" (313). From a mechanical perspective, I'd say house rule whatever you and your group feel to be balanced. That may well have to be handled on a case-by-case basis such as nerfing the lizard and buffing the kobold. From a roleplaying perspective, I'd make the player come up with a darn good backstory, and a reason why the other PCs would allow a cannibal (195) to adventure with them.
I think it's sad though that you have to come up with house rules to get all of the interesting races balanced. Especially on this otherwise greatest RPG system of them all.
Where it comes from becomes rather trivial considering how powerful this feature is. As I said, other races have racial features too, but this +5 gets me worried that the Lizardfolk player becomes almost invulnerable (the only thing stopping him would be touch attacks). I think the player can live with 2d8 HD without class features to substitute his first level. I mean he does get closer to the next feat, has more skill points, than, say a fighter or similar, has higher maximum ranks and a lot of hit points to start with.
I'm actually concerned he is too powerful this way. I don't see changing racial HD to class levels will help very much, I want to start from level one. My idea was to have monster characters up to CR 1 allowed but strarting without class levels and when the party reaches 2nd level I would let them advance to their first class level.Unless... If i would still go down this road start with a class-less lizardfolk warrior and instead of giving him an extra level at level 2 and 3 i would convert one of his HD into a class, say Fighter, and only on level 4 he would start actually advancing....
Would this mount up, to what you have been describing? I think I could work with that. Then he would actually stay behind in skills feats and everything.
Here's what I've been doing for Lizardfolk.
I strip off the racial hit dice entirely. A lizardfolk is a CR 1, which per page 313 is a first level character with no class levels. I don't think the +5 Natural Armor though can be ignored at first level. So I strip off the racial hit dice, but keep the CR 1 intact.
If I'm making a character that is first level, I give them a level of a class, but set them at 2nd level. This means that they will advance to 2nd level much more slowly than their partymates (Their friends need 2000exp to reach level 2, but the lizardman needs 3000 to reach level 3, which for him is level 2). Basically, I give him a +1 ECL. Then, between level 4 and 5 (2 + 3) I give him a bump one level. That's again per p313, every 3 levels they subtract one from CR (up to 1/2 starting CR adjustment) and boost class level by one. So, at 5th level they 'catch up' with their friends. By then, the AC Boost is nice, but not something that is unbalancing, and they get no other racial bonuses other than that and holding their breath, a +4 to Acrobatics, and claw/claw/bite (1d4), and a swim speed (15ft). Nothing major honestly.
So, they'd trail slightly behind for the first 4 levels, then catch up, and continue on from there. I don't think they'd be horribly unbalanced that way.
I think it's sad though that you have to come up with house rules to get all of the interesting races balanced. Especially on this otherwise greatest RPG system of them all.
I think if they were that interesting, they'd be core. I suspect rather that what makes them interesting is that they're not core. People who like playing monstrous races (myself included) tend to enjoy something different from the norm. If lizardfolk were balanced with humans, dwarves, elves and tieflings, well... then they'd be dragonborn, and boring. :)
I think it's sad though that you have to come up with house rules to get all of the interesting races balanced. Especially on this otherwise greatest RPG system of them all.I think if they were that interesting, they'd be core. I suspect rather that what makes them interesting is that they're not core. People who like playing monstrous races (myself included) tend to enjoy something different from the norm. If lizardfolk were balanced with humans, dwarves, elves and tieflings, well... then they'd be dragonborn, and boring. :)
I think dragonborn are interesting. Because theyre not humans. Like Dwarves, Elves, Halflings and Gnomes. Those are humans, just in slightly different proportions. If I wanted to be a human, i wouldnt need to play a role playing game.
I think dragonborn are interesting. Because theyre not humans. Like Dwarves, Elves, Halflings and Gnomes. Those are humans, just in slightly different proportions. If I wanted to be a human, i wouldnt need to play a role playing game.I think it's sad though that you have to come up with house rules to get all of the interesting races balanced. Especially on this otherwise greatest RPG system of them all.I think if they were that interesting, they'd be core. I suspect rather that what makes them interesting is that they're not core. People who like playing monstrous races (myself included) tend to enjoy something different from the norm. If lizardfolk were balanced with humans, dwarves, elves and tieflings, well... then they'd be dragonborn, and boring. :)
It takes more than a different exterior to be different from a human. Dwarves, elves, halflings, gnomes - they can be very alien.
Dragonborn. What, except their goofy looks, makes them not human?
I say that's the cheap way out. Star Trek syndrome - aliens are just humans with raging mutant acne.
No, it takes more than that for a human to create a non-human persona.
It takes more than a different exterior to be different from a human. Dwarves, elves, halflings, gnomes - they can be very alien.Dragonborn. What, except their goofy looks, makes them not human?
I say that's the cheap way out. Star Trek syndrome - aliens are just humans with raging mutant acne.
No, it takes more than that for a human to create a non-human persona.
I think there's an argument to be made for dragonborn being pretty odd mentally. First off, they willingly changed their race. That's pretty odd right there. Not many people are willing to change their entire identity, and add on not looking like ones self any more and it's even rarer. To be a different race going forward is even more outre to me.
Plus the process has to alter their brain chemistry, so that adds in alien thought mechanisms there.
I think your argument though, and I agree with it, is that most players just made scaly humans (or dwarves or orcs), rather than playing something odd and alien and with a weird personality, they just make a human with scales.
Kobolds are only really that weak if you try to play a front line fighters. with their DEX bonus and natural armor and small size, they make excellent rogues and sorcerors and such.
As for Lizardfolk.
I just give them 1d8 HD plus racial modifiers and the +5 AC and bonuses. That's their level 1...
I think if they were that interesting, they'd be core. I suspect rather that what makes them interesting is that they're not core. People who like playing monstrous races (myself included) tend to enjoy something different from the norm. If lizardfolk were balanced with humans, dwarves, elves and tieflings, well... then they'd be dragonborn, and boring. :)
To be fair, some of us just have it as a part of our sense of aesthetics.
Having grown up in a house with a field and a big, boggy pond in the backyard (and being blessed to live in a place where almost nothing was poisonous,) I was always able to find interesting frogs, toads, grasshoppers, mantises, snakes, etc. to take home in jars and study for a few days before releasing. Combining this with the usual childhood dinosaur fetish I never really grew out of, and I've always been fascinated with arthropods, amphibians, and reptiles. If someone says I just want to try to play a lizardfolk out of the urge to be different, it comes across as a bit condensending.
Wyrmkin can breed true, but the origin of their species is from unfertilized dragon eggs, which female dragons lay a couple of every year, which hatch to produce a half-dozen or so wyrmkin
If the eggs are unfertilized, then how do they hatch?
Magic?
Wyrmkin can breed true, but the origin of their species is from unfertilized dragon eggs, which female dragons lay a couple of every year, which hatch to produce a half-dozen or so wyrmkinIf the eggs are unfertilized, then how do they hatch?
Magic?
There are some species of frogs and fish that unfertilized eggs still produce, they are genetically the same as the mother. It's not 100% of course.
Wyrmkin can breed true, but the origin of their species is from unfertilized dragon eggs, which female dragons lay a couple of every year, which hatch to produce a half-dozen or so wyrmkinIf the eggs are unfertilized, then how do they hatch?
Magic?
Parthenogensis. A few links...
Parthenogensis. A few links...
I think Komodo dragons are another example. They can self fertilize their own eggs in the absense of a male, but the offspring are always male, resulting that there will be males available in the area for future reproduction.
I think Komodo dragons are another example. They can self fertilize their own eggs in the absense of a male, but the offspring are always male, resulting that there will be males available in the area for future reproduction.
Parthenogensis. A few links...
There are also some species of frogs in Africa that spontaneously switch sex from male to female in an all male environment. (free toss out to Jurassic Park for that one)
The clownfish, oddly, has only one female, one male, and a bunch of 'beta' males who don't mate in any given school. When the female dies or gets too old to mate, the male grows some and becomes a female, and one of the beta males grows a little and becomes a male.
There's more weirdness in the world than there is in D&D honestly. :)
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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How do I figure out the Ability modifiers for each monstrous race?
On an only partly related note: Do you guys at Paizo really hate Kobolds so much or are their features really so powerful that it would justify a -4, +2, -2 ability array in a game where a standard race usually has +2, +2, -2?
Yes, 10/11 rule applies and it is in the Bestiary (iirc near the beginning of the book.)
Kobolds are supposed to suck.