Here's my issue (2, actually), under the spoiler as to not give anything away (this is my first post and I'm not sure of etiquette here). I also freely admit that I don't think I'm a particularly good DM, and am fully willing to accept full responsibility for either of these issues - I just would appreciate some advice as to what to do:
So I'm at a loss, and would appreciate any and all words of wisdom. Thanks!
This sounds like a pretty textbook case of the players' failure to meet the DM halfway.
You have a campaign that you want to run, and it requires that the players figure out a way to make their respective characters at least tolerate the group environment that the game of D&D is all about. It requires precious little effort on the part of the players to simply pick a reason that their characters should continue adventuring together. This isn't tough. You don't need to justify it with pages of backstory. But if the players aren't willing to meet you halfway like this, I'm inclined to say they're just sort of being jerks. I mean, is there another side to this that we haven't heard?
a number of groups have been left this way by the opening of the Crimson Throne path. The way that the opening is set up, making so much of Lamm, has been a major contributing factor to problems for unwary/inexperienced GMs.
Advice on how to cope has been requested.
Paizo certainly got better at these backgrounds in subsequent APs, imo. I havent run CotCT yet but I could easily see this problem occurring to even the most seasoned DM if they werent prepared for it.
One thing I'd suggest to the OP is that you be clear to the players that you're running an adventure path and not a sandbox-type game where "you guys just run around doing whatever takes your fancy". I think it's reasonable to expect players in an AP to bite at the obvious plot hooks (for whatever various reasons they may come up with and with whatever focus they choose to give them). If they resent this or arent interested in following a reasonably linear plot then you'll either need to run something else for them or be prepared for a hard slog in tying what they DO want to do into an adventure path which is assuming they care about Korvosa's troubles to do something about them.
Not much concrete advice other than talk to your players, really. You're certainly not the first running this AP to have found problems walking the fine line between a railroady DM style and players with wandering focus.
The problem of one character doing something the others dont like is a more general one. I recommend an out-of-game discussion about it. Presumably you all know and like each other and are getting together to play a social game. It's worth pointing out to the loner he should probably play his character in a way which is consistent with the group remaining together and to the others that they would also benefit from reacting to the murderer in ways other than expulsion from the group.
In my opinion, the "But that's not what my character would do..." crowd can sometimes forget that they are responsible for choosing what their character would do and that most groups do not enjoy watching a DM run two separate groups - if they find ways to adventure together (even with the occasional tension) then everybody wins. If one or more are determined to not get along (or convinced that there's no other choice), then imo it will be almost impossible to run an AP where the underlying assumption is a team of individuals working towards a common goal.
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I found that I had to insert additional hooks for each character as they apprehended (or, disposed of) Lamm. So the rogue got involved with the guild on a minor level, the cleric got involved with his church, and so on.
Be prepared to do some heavy cajoling when you get to the end of the chapter 3.
So when Vencarlo finally suggested that they leave the city and regroup, then come back with a plan they went along with it. Although it was clear that they understood they were being pushed out of town.
Once gone, I have Neolandus describe why Vencarlo was so adamant about it and they reluctantly agreed to go after Thousand Bones.
Ouch ... it sounds to me that the unraveling caused by one player's actions in character are what put the real stumbling block to continuation.
I'd take a second look at the backgrounds and hooks the party took and gave you when they created their characters, and see what you can use there to try and pull things together. Yes, the players need to meet you partway in willingness, but the blatant murder really was a sundering point, I'm sure, and I'd be non-plussed as either a player or GM by it.
One possibility is to talk to the party and suggest a "take two" on the scene, after talking to the murderous character. What was his alignment? What class, and what would the reprecussions of his callous murder of a helpless foe be? If the player is unwilling to bend, that may be a problem right there.
I know when my players have been tired, I've had to nudge a few times about alignment and "are you sure so-and-so would do that?" We are playing three campaigns, and sometimes character personality bleeds a bit from one to another, and giving players a chance to rethink their actions can be a big help.
If you don't want to do a "take two" ... use the riots to hit home. Have fires endanger or destroy someone's home/business/ Have mobs rough up a family member or friend. Use the backgrounds to get the party moving in the right direction, separately, and then have them happen to be in the same place at the same time.
Also, who wound up with the brooch? What happened to the orphans? Those are things that can pull the party back together, though probably without the character that committed the murder ... that player should probably come up with another character, working with you for how and why they are involved.
Hope that helps some.
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Who got Zelladra's deck? I found her to be a good motivational tool. She could also attempt to reunite them the same way she did originally, by a Harrow card. Given the accuracy of the last one, they might be more willing to come back and reunite the band to save their city.
But, I have to agree with Gamer Grrrl. The cold-blooded murder seems to be the main stumbling block and backing up to a do-over would be one way. Speaking to the players out of character and asking them to come up with reasons why they could work with the killer is another way. Basically, although it is a bit confrontational, the old blunt approach of "Look, if you guys won't adventure together, there's no game." Spending a bit more time with the player of the murderer and asking/telling him not to do that sort of disruptive action again woudl also help.
Creative Director
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The purpose of the character traits aren't necessarilly to nudge the PCs into the adventure as they are to give the PCs a purpose to come together and join into a group. If they feel that their arcs are done already... then my advice would be to "freestyle" it for a while. They've formed a group; let them adventure for a bit in adventures of your own design and as things grow more desperate in Korvosa they should probably start to feel like they need to protect their city.
If, on the other hand, the PCs don't care about Korvosa and don't seem to be interested in EVER caring about saving their city... this might not be the best AP to run for them.
And worse, if you have a PC who's simply trying to go out of his way to be disruptive (which is sort of what it sounds like is going on), there's really not much you can do but talk to your players and try to find out what the problem is. It might be that they simply don't want to play "Curse of the Crimson Throne," or it might be that one player's souring the experience by being a troublemaker. In the latter case... the tough call is probably to ask that player to leave, since if he doesn't want to play in the AP it's not fair to the other players who DO want to play in that AP for that player to ruin the experience.
A couple thoughts -- who wound up with the queen's thinket? If it's a good, fair-minded kind of guy, he can gather them all up to go fetch their reward. Cold hard cash should bring most of them together. Then the queen tells them she'd like to offer them steady well-paid work and sends them to Croft. Hopefully the money will keep them together until they can bond.
Regarding the killer -- I'd say let the rest of the group exile him. It's new character time for that player. You can only stretch the "adventuring we all must go" tent so far. He's got to find a PC that will work with the others.
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I agree with several posters here. You have 2 issues from my view.
Number one and perhaps the most important. Take stock of your Players and find out if they all (or some) want to play the AP. Make sure that it is what everyone wants to do or at least enough that you can go ahead with it. If noone wants to play then you can force and force and force and nothing good will come of it. If some do, grab that group and continue on.
Number two is less important but perhaps a bit more difficult. Salvaging the story. Gamer Girrl and therealthom have hit on the hook that is the easiest and most persuasive. Cash. That brooch is virtually unsalable. Make sure that no matter who tries to sell it they quickly discover that no one wants any part of it. The only way to make any real money on it is to turn it in at the castle.
Now a couple of problems that I can forsee since there is no information on what became of the brooch in your posts are:
a) What if the Murderer has it. My first solution here is if the player of this character is still playing you can follow Gamer Girrl's solution and rewind. If that is not acceptable to you or any/all of the Players then tell that player make a new character yours is now my possession. You then let the party decide, either they haul him off to jail (thus taking the brooch from him before they do) or he drops off all his loot taken from the fishery (including the brooch) and is allowed to dissapear into the night never to be heard from again.
b) What if the PC who has the brooch is a loner and isn't interested in working with the rest of the Party. If you check the CotCT boards you'll find a couple of other boards where this has come up. There are two solutions that seem to repeat in those as well. 1) either the PC tries to turn in the brooch and discovers that he just can't go it alone, or you have to abandon the brooch and use one of the other hooks.
If the Brooch is a lost cause, then we have to fall back on Zellara. Did she manage to persuade any of the characters to help the city? If the answer is no then I recommend everyone reevaluate the answer to the very first question above, is anyone really interested in playing this game? Are any of these characters heroes? (perhaps she should ask them that, are any of you heroes? have you no pride in your own city or even in any of the people who you know here in town?)
If the answer is yes, well then...Build from there. Those characters (or just character) should then build a new group. Everyone else gets to make a new character. Now faced with that I would imagine a couple of folks may, at worse, become reluctant heroes and join rather than make a brand new character. Some will decide to remake a character. Just remind them that this time they are to make a budding hero of Korvosa, the greatest city they have ever known.
This is long I apologize.
If Zellara's deck is an issue then you are left with letting them build a party out of what's left of the party after you weed out the characters that can't work together. I suggest you take a look at the Riot scenes, perhaps add a few and make an adventure that will hook into the characters you have and try to leave an oppening for Cressida to hear of the characters and approach them to work for her. Thus, you are back on track.
Good luck. Keep us informed of what happens, as I would like to help you get through this.
I take it that you have not seen Spiderman...
They have great power but refuse to take responsibility? Well, it's time to kill Uncle Ben, then.
If they do nothing, have them sit next to Grau in a bar. Have this useless sot start rationalizing: it's not his fault, he can't do anything to stop the riots, can't somebody else do it, I don't get paid enough to take these kinds of risks... Everything that they're thinking is voiced by an utter loser. If that doesn't prick their pride, start killing relatives of the PCs. First one to die is in a massacre nearby, when they could have done something, but didn't.
And if they don't respond to that, then, well, you narrate the destruction of the city, the rise of the Queen, and their characters' deaths in ignominy. End campaign.
And the next campaign, they'll either be more cooperative or someone else will take over. Win-win.
All of the others have given you the nice and responsible bits of advice: it's the players' responsibility, freestyle, delicate hints... There's always other, more-heavy-handed options.
This has been your Lawful Evil advice for the thread.
First, I just want to say this: what an amazing community we've got going on here, where a call for help gets almost immediate response not only from my fellow gamers, but from the Editor-in-Chief . I sent a link to this thread to my wife (home sick and a fellow gamer) and she agreed as to the awesomeness of it.
So, after our session that left me rather deflated, I didn't feel like writing too much, but I want to flesh out more what's going on with our group, the players, their characters and get some feedback on my plan, based on the great posts above. It's going to be a little long-winded, so I'm going to break it up under spoiler tags. Feel free to read as little or as much as you like.
My group: 6 players (5 friends + the wife) who all have plenty of role-playing experience (except the wife, she's an advanced-beginner and constantly improving).
Me: I'm what I'd consider an advanced-beginner DM. I've run one campaign (3.5 Forgotten Realms) that hit a strong pause due to graduate school combined with my job.
How we got into PFRPG: I'd read a lot about Paizo, visited the booth at GenCon, talked with one of the reps, etc. Since the other 2 campaigns that were DM'd by other players were inconsistent at best, I suggested the AP to my group - a long campaign that could be run consistently, pretty much weekly. I chose the CotCT since my FR campaign was set in an urban setting, and it seemed like a good match. I also suggested that we use the new PFRPG rules, and everyone agreed and seemed excited. I buy the books, and we're ready to go - everyone is into the idea, and they love reading through the new rules and the CotCT Player's Guide.
Human Wizard (Conjurer): Young, rich & arrogant, initiate at the Acadamae, exceptional talent but more interested in doing drugs with his former roommate (see next).
Human Sorcerer (Arcane heritage): Distaff relation to the Ornelos, young and rich, outcast from his family, dropout from the Acadamae (wizard's former roommate), slowly becoming addicted to shiver. Both hate Lamm for cheating them out of a sum of money during a drug deal. Both players expressed the desire to play characters that will end up fighting through their addiction.
Human Cleric of Sarenrae (aka the wife): Priestess at an orphanage, hates Lamm for his treatment of the children, even more so since he used one of his Lambs to infiltrate her orphanage and steal valuables in the night. Can be fanatical in her devotion to her faith, she's a direct implement of Sarenrae's divine will in the world.
Half-orc Barbarian: Orphaned, drifter growing up, ended up working for Lamm as hired muscle. Failed an assignment guarding a shipment out of the city, Lamm had minions break into his house, murdered his concubine. Definitely feels like an outcast to the city, but yearns to carve out a home and existence.
Human Fighter: Paranoid and OCD, not trusting of motives, does not go out in public without a scarf covering his face, extreme knowledge of city geography due to constant twist/turn paths while traveling. Believes that he is the steward of the city, and he will protect it by any means necessary.
Gnome Druid: Don't have too much in terms of character background yet, this player is in the process of finalizing buying a house and barely has time to get to our sessions. Long-time friend who was absent for a long time, and I'm glad to have him back and was willing to give the "I've got my own reasons for tagging along with the party...I just haven't figured them out yet" a little leeway.
After killing Lamm, the fighter discovered Zellara's head and the Harrow deck in Lamm's hovel. The wizard and sorcerer scoured around for drugs and money, the cleric got her hands on a stolen holy symbol, and the brooch was found and kept by the wizard, who immediately recognized its meaning (and figured he could turn it in for a fat purse with which he could go on a shiver spree). Balko was kept alive, if only to interrogate by the casters as to any more hidden caches of Lamm's goods. The cleric was more concerned with the fate of the orphans, and planned on leaving after Balko was turned over to the authorities to start trying to round up orphans and find them a happy home. The druid wanted to go back to Zellara's to investigate just who/what talked to them originally. At this point, the city started to devolve into riot, through which the characters were able to mostly avoid (thanks to the street knowledge of the fighter) At the house, Zellara appeared and thanked them for retrieving her deck, and told them the truth as to her fate, as well as naming them as heroes of Korvosa who will be the light of the city in dark times, etc, etc. The characters started in on some light interrogation of Balko, and at that point, the fighter, who is covering him with a crossbow, says "I shoot him in the head with the crossbow". Ugh.
So what am I going to do?
- Like many of you all have suggested, the first thing I'm going to do is double-check the players' desire to play through an AP. If they say yes, then I'm going to have a very frank discussion about how they need to work *with* me to try to build the best gaming experience possible.
- I'm going to have a chat with the player whose character did the killing - I wasn't happy with his response of "it's more fun to make him dead...well, more fun for us...but harder for you" when I reminded him that he couldn't coup de grace with a ranged weapon and we might end up revising what happened.
- Do I redo the actual murder? I'm honestly split on this - part of me wants to be a rules lawyer and simply not allow it based on RAW, and make them play it out, but I'm afraid it might lead to some PvP (in the case of the cleric). I'm hoping I can dissuade the player from going through the murder and avoid the "well, my character would have done it" argument (which I heard earlier today).
- The fighter ended up with Zellara's deck. I like the idea of the deck being able to "choose" a more worthy hero, and I'm inclined to choose the half-orc, only because he seems to be the character that all the other ones get along with, and it will give his character another hook to get involved with the story (now that the first act is over).
- If the Guard happens upon them in Zellara's house, they'd probably end up all getting thrown in prison, since it would appear they all just participated in the murder. Being in possession of the brooch would get the attention of Cressida. She would offer $ (appealing to the drug addicts), glory & righteousness (for the cleric) and an outlet for aggression (for the barbarian), which I think could work. I'm not as much of a fan of this since it is rather railroading, but they may need this type of kick in the you-know-where.
Here's to hoping all that works. If the players decide they now *don't* want to play in the AP, I'm not entirely sure just what they are going to play *at all* since no one else is running a campaign. I'm hoping the blank wall of no gaming that they can all look forward to will get them to work with me on this. I'll keep everyone posted.
Again, much thanks to everyone who took the time to answer my post! You guys are great! Can't wait to chit-chat more.
I ran into a similar party dynamic issue in Second Darkness, in which one of the PCs took a grudge against an NPC and decided to murder him in his bed. The rest of the group was completely against it, but he insisted he had to "play his character." Sadly, the player ended up quitting the campaign because none of the rest of us could condone his actions.
A question to ask yourself: Does this player tend toward disruptive characters, or is this an anomaly for him? Is he generally a team player or a prima donna? In retrospect, I realized my "problem player" had been the cause of party splits and campaign-ending tangential personal side quests in almost every game I ever tried to run. I'm sad over the rift personally, but his absence has been very healthy for the game since I no longer have to worry about PCs who fight every NPC and resist every plot hook.
I ran into a similar party dynamic issue in Second Darkness, in which one of the PCs took a grudge against an NPC and decided to murder him in his bed. The rest of the group was completely against it, but he insisted he had to "play his character." Sadly, the player ended up quitting the campaign because none of the rest of us could condone his actions.
To all players:
"I'm just playing my character!" is not an acceptable excuse for causing conflict between the people playing the game. Yes, you have a character. No, his actions aren't set in stone, and you have a responsibility to the rest of the people playing the game to play a character that (by and large) meshes with the rest of the party.
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Lots and lots of background and good ideas...
Thanks for the info, I would follow your plan to a tee. Let us know how it turns out and we, and by that I can only speak for me but I some how doubt it would be just me, are always ready to throw out ideas and help you get through whatever it is that is going on in your game. Good luck.
Notes: The deck has shown the ability to move cards through space and time the fighter may think he has the Deck, but Zellara determines who really has the deck, so no worries there. The wizard having the brooch is a plus in my opinion. Remember how hot that thing is and make it clear that the only way to cash it in is to claim the reward at the castle. That plus the relocation of the deck and it is rather unimportant what becomes of the Fighter. Either he shapes up, his character is replaced or the party moves on without him. All winners as long as everyone can agree to the final outcome.
And while I love the Lawful Evil response, It always seems like the right course of action, it sadly ends in the lack of a game in my experience, as the game just implodes after stuff like that.
The deck has shown the ability to move cards through space and time
I actually liked 'Charles Evans 25' suggestion of having had a guard follow them back to Zellara's house. At which point I'm pretty sure the rest of the party would turn and point, exclaiming unanimously "He did it!" At least from what you've said of their feelings above. They get a night in prison for association, he gets death. Have him create a LAWFUL character for his replacement, no more arguments about "I was just playing my character!".
The "Loner" (Dark Knight) character needs to LIGHTEN UP. In no uncertain terms should you be running a campaign JUST for him, it's a GROUP activity. I am in 2 groups at the moment, both have a "Loner" in them, but both players are experienced enough to know WHEN and WHERE they can "Get away with murder". (figure of speech)
EDIT: Your next party implosion is coming in the form of your 'drug addict' characters. Drug addicts have 3 friends, the people they get the money from(eventually by stealing), the dealer who sells the drug and the drug itself. Everyone else to include family is just in the way of their next fix. The plot hook says "you WERE" addicted. Besides HEROES DON'T DO DRUGS! :p (also assuming they have knowledge about drug addiction and the fun it entails.)
Also I found this old thread on a similar topic (Party Loner/Stagnant Party)... it's only 21 posts long at the moment, easy read.
And while I love the Lawful Evil response, It always seems like the right course of action, it sadly ends in the lack of a game in my experience, as the game just implodes after stuff like that.
Thanks! That's why I label the alignment...
Seriously, though, the credible threat of playing evil is all you really need. It's like the first time you kill a PC or a beloved NPC. It sends the message that the PCs can fail, which increases the dramatic stakes. Few things are more corrosive than a player belief that they'll always win.
Incidentally, the character background of the fighter is a warning sign. Any PC designed with no hooks is a player trying to acquire plot-immunity, and thus has nothing to lose. Unfortunately, such character rarely have anything to gain by winning. Tell him that he needs an Alfred or a Robin or a Gordon.
Wait. We're all being stupid. There's a cleric of Desna in the group. Have the goddess send dreams as instructions as to what the party needs to do. Include nightmares of disaster for the city.
Here's the update:
My gaming group met last night, and I had a quick chat with every member of the group (mostly) individually beforehand, double-checking their desire to play through an adventure path, and pretty much laying out the fact that I didn't want to run individual campaigns, and I don't mind them having their own characters' individual motivations, backgrounds, quirks, etc, but that I didn't want to deal with a free-for-all. The fighter (aka the murderer) asked me flat out if I thought he was going to need to roll up a new character - I told him that it was up to him, but he seemed pretty receptive (as did everyone) to what I had to say. (Quick note: this player is a solid role-player, and tends to do things at times because of their 'cinematic' value. The murder was one of those times.)
Immediately following the rioters is a squad of 3 soldiers from the Guard, plus a sergeant. They see the scene, and immediately arrest everyone, over the protestations of the cleric and the sorcerer, who openly blame the fighter for the murder. The sergeant pretty much said "We're taking you all in, and we'll sort it out later". The barbarian and the fighter seemed to be itching for a fight, but they were disuaded (by the wizard, I think). They get carted off to the Citadel, where their belongings are inventoried, and they are thrown into adjoining cells (I didn't want them in the same cell, simply to avoid any PvP fallout). Lots of tension, blame getting tossed back and forth, etc. Good role-playing at this point from all players.
At this point, Sabina Merrin comes in, to meet with the people who retrieved the lost brooch. Funny scene at this point - the wizard (the only character with Appraise & Knowledge Nobility) had openly lied to the party about what the brooch was, in order to hide the true value of the brooch (a thing which my player told me OOC that he realized wasn't the best thing to do, but he figured it would end up being a good scene later) so when Sabina told them all what it was, pretty much they all turned around and said "we're *always* getting a 2nd opinion".
While some in the party were cowed by Sabina's presence, or awed by her beauty, the cleric and the wizard were able to spin a convincing tale of how they had eliminated Lamm (playing up how awful he was, a cancer to the city, etc.) and had recovered the brooch, and of COURSE they were going to return it to the Queen, but they had an unfortunate run-in with Balko, and that there was a misunderstanding, but that they were repentant and the murder was unfortunate. They did a really nice job of telling the tale, and they convinced Sabina of their love of the city.
At this point, we jumped right back into the AP, with the Queen thanking them and recruiting them as agents of the Guard. The wizard and sorcerer (both related to House Ornelos) were both in awe that the Queen had met with them and were admittedly scared. The cleric views this as an opportunity to fight injustice, glory for her deity, etc. The orc gets to smash things, so he's happy about that. The fighter and druid...well, their motivation is not as clear, but they seem like they are back on the path, as it were.
All in all, I think it went well. Thanks to everyone who left me a good word!
Well done! I liked the 'guard showing up on the scene' plot when it was suggested above and you improvised on it further. :)
If it's the 'role-players' seeking drama or climatic events that has caused the previously dilemmas, I would still keep the phrase "Are you sure?" readily available. It could save you some time and worry.
Well done! I liked the 'guard showing up on the scene' plot when it was suggested above and you improvised on it further. :)
If it's the 'role-players' seeking drama or climatic events that has caused the previously dilemmas, I would still keep the phrase "Are you sure?" readily available. It could save you some time and worry.
My two fave phrases as a GM:
"You don't find it" sure to raise paranoia levels on all searches; and
"Are you sure?" for any action that is probably going to get someone killed, and not the bad guys :)
Simcha needs help... too.
I experienced the same difficulties after my party disposed of Lamm, they thought he was the major villain and were a little surprised after he'd been eaten by his own pet.
Be that as it may, as the AP continues, the individual members seem do have difficulties forming a unit.
This is where my troubles start:
I get contradictory signals from my players. (Part of that may be because I come from a Storytelling tradition...)
After a few sessions my group complained they did not know what was going on and that I had them confused. So I offered to create a more prominent "red thread" if they liked and to give them some hints.
Two sessions later I got accused of railroading them.
The party consists of the following
Varisian Sorcerer (Abyssal) flamboyant crook, a low-life with connections and a weakness for women
Human Cleric of Sarenrae quiet, righteous and contemplative
Half-elf Ranger of House Bethmara, a young noble with a dysfunctional family and a mistrust of all things human
Human Fighter loud and uncouth, dim when sober, brilliant when drunk
Human Rogue the silent type, nondescript and grumpy and a wee bit greedy
This may explain some of the discrepancies because the Sorcerer sees the unrest in Korvosa as an opportunity for the common people to throw off the nobility's yoke, railing against the Palace and the Queen (knowingly assuming wrong things and willfully drawing wrong conclusions). The noble tries to defend herself, since she tries to act in favour of the group.
Yesterday we were here:
The party captured Trinia after chasing her half-heartedly along the rooftops. She tried to persuade them to let her go, but they insist on handing her over to the Field-marshall.
I am caught between a rock and a hard place: the players want more interaction with the city, but when I do that, the get confused or thrown off track. They ignore or underestimate information I provide them with. And most important of all, I have trouble displaying the riots as a real threat.
I must admit, I don't want them to run into a mob at every second corner and I don't really think they'd believe the encounters suggested in the AP. I keep the riots on the edge of vision, but I guess I need to hit the players hard after all.
After investigating All the World's Meat they moved out with a cart full of corpses and a prisoner and ran into a large group of angry (and hungry) rioters who were just grinding three guards to pulp.
The party readied to take on to a dozen angry commoners with bloody cudgels, before they could verbally disperse them at the last moment.
This recklesness makes me reluctant to throw random encounters with mobs in their way.
How do I make the riots mor life-like and the threat more "real"?
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Simcha,
To make the riots seem like a threat without directly confronting the PCs, have the riots impact on them indirectly. Burn their favourtie tavern down. Make talking to people more difficult as everyone's holed up waiting for the riots to pass. Have Commander Croft send them on a mission to help the guard clean up after the riots so they can see the aftermath. When they're out, make sure to mention the buildings that aren't there any more, the stains of blood and ash on the streets, a body pummelled so hard it can't be recognised. That will give them the idea.
As for the other problem, I'm afraid it's GM suggestion number one. When all else fails, talk to the players. Point out that you scaled back the interaction because they asked you too. Point out your valid concern that if you're less railroady (incidentally, it's an Adventure Path, so there is quite a bit of railroading going on by it's nature and they should be aware of that) they'll get lost and have less fun again. If they're going to want more interaction, they have to take some responsibility for picking up on cues. If they can't or won't, you have to cut back the interaction to a level they can handle.
Hmm, looks like I'll have to burn down the Last Mistake or someone's home.
Thanks for the suggestions, I will try that, hpoing it is not too late yet.
I have talked to them, infact I did so just after yesterdays session. I haven't gamed with these people for a long time since I have only recently moved here, so I figure some birthing pains are to be expected. They have a tradition of giving feedback after every session and I am not so keen on that. Not that I don't appreciate feedback but it generally leads to an hour of discussion and accusations and not really any "good" feedback.
I asked them what they wanted and they really couldn't say. Something like rubbing shoulders with the city's populace a bit more. Then they all go off on their own and accuse me to devote too much time to single character encounters (partly my mistake that I allow that, since I don't want one character disappear i.e. killed by the riots).
Yesterday, the sorcerer went out to check for a fence. A good opportunity to give some information and flair, I thought. I threw the hook and nothing happened.
As for hooks...
After capturing Vancaskerkin, he spilled the beans on how his lover had told him what a good idea it was to support and exploit the riots. The party was able to identify Vimanda as the power behind the enterprise. Instead of investigating on their own, they told the Marshall Croft and paid some contacts to snoop around Old Korvosa. Problem is, they carry a silver dagger everywhere they go that has Vimanda well informed.
So after Trinia had been named/framed as the King's assassin, Vimanda conveniently framed her, too, informing the party by letter that someone (Trinia) had obviously posed as Vimanda to coax Verik into supporting the revolution. By that Vimanda hopes to kill two birds with one stone.
The information did not get passed on from the Ranger to the rest of the party...
Simcha, a few observations & suggestions:
1) What I asked of my players was to meet me halfway - I still would give them opportunities to pursue their own hooks, individual agendas, etc., but that they should recognize that the AP is predicated on having a common purpose. In the game, the events occurred that led to them becoming a semblance of an adventuring group, and I was gratified to see that they all came together (albeit for their own reasons) for that common purpose. I was a bit worried/nervous about talking to my players about my issues with the way they were approaching the adventure path, simply because these are my friends and I didn't want to come off talking in my 'teacher voice', but a quick 2 minute conversation really allayed all my issues (at least at the moment) for running the AP.
2) IMO, you've got to curtail the whole "giving feedback at the end of the session", especially since it seems to not be a positive experience. Usually, the only question that I ask is "Did we have fun tonight?" - on the rare occasion that the answer is "No", we have a brief discussion as to why, but I stress that it is a very short conversation. If they have any serious issues, do what I do: handle it one-on-one, preferably a day or two after the session. Hashing out issues with an audience is the absolute worst way of dealing with a player's problem.
3) If all else fails, have them arrested. It worked for me.
Arrest them... intrigueing.
I'd prefer one-on-ones too. I tried to dissuade them from this feedback thing, but they seem to have been doing this for ages so they always fall back. But you are of course right, what stays with me is a stale taste that they are not having fun.
Especially bad, because they are better players in my sessions then in other GMs sessions...
I miss my old pals from back home... :.(
I think the main problem really is that most/some of my players assume it is the GM's responsibility to throw them chunks of story, but don't dare to make them feel railroaded... and then I get the feeling they rather want to mash monsters.
I hope this will resolve itself a bit as soon as they see a bit clearer what's been happening behind the curtains.
Otherwise I might be forced to rethink the whole venture...
Btw: What the heck can I do against Ray of Enfeeblement?
I especially ask because the spell handed them Trinia on a silver platter (or rather shingle) and I intend to make Vreeg a halfling, because the presence of Derros beneath Korvosa fells kind of cheesy or wrong to me.
Arrest them... intriguing.
I meant their characters...not actually calling the police on your gaming group ;)
When they were sitting in the Citadel, my players did some really great role-playing, hurling insults and accusations back and forth, while at the same time allowing for some "bonding time" for them to really get to know each other, in character. By the time they were released, they weren't best friends, but they weren't strangers either - some common ground was found outside of their mutual hatred of Lamm, and it brought them closer to the eventual goal of forming 'a party'. Its a credit to my gaming group that they listened to what I had to say, and still had fun with the experience.
We had those moments. They sat down together during a lull after All the World's Meats. They have been acting like a group a lot better since then. Still the knives are close to hand.
Senseless provocations, I asked them several times to leave be.
They have an interesting talent for making friends in strange places. I wish to make use of those some time sooner or later:
Hookshanks - he escaped during the Old Fishery encounter. The PCs used contacts to track him down, only to stumble into him in the most unlikely of places. After escaping the lifelong coward had come across two "tourists" (a Summoner and his Necromancer partner - yes I like too steal from novels) who needed a decent place to stay. Bad fortune had it, Hookshanks decided to lead them into the dingy Last Mistake (the sorcerer's usual hangout) grab the money and run off.
The party was surprised but quickly recovered, not flinching even as the two "bounty hunters" did not accept the offered bounty.
They then did not dispose of Hookshanks themselves, no they contacted a former Lamb who had suffered under him, handed the Gnome over and told him to "make it slow and unpleasant". Only the Halfelf Ranger Noble had the decency of trying to intervene.
Now there's one unhappy undead that is going to haunt them...
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Later they sent off an angry mob by convincing them (or rather by not convincing them otherwise) that the local Shoanti were distributing human meat among the populace.
Thousand Bones will not be happy.
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After being nastily roughed up the party fled to the Temple of Desna, they still had the holy symbol from Lamm's stash.
They were greeted by a young woman with a basket of freshly picked flowers. Once invited inside they first asked for help for one of the poisoned party members. While the priestess helped them, they asked about the holy symbol. They then started discussing if they'd show her the brooch. As the priestess insisted, hinting that they ought to honour Desna's hospitality, they stilted together a thin cover story. The mistake that got them thrown out was connected to calling a fine piece of craftsmanship junk and then pressing her for more information.
The characters and players were rather surprised at being sent unceremoniously back to the street.
I told them, if they did not get the impression of having acted rather indecent inside a temple and that high-priests not necessarily had to be old grandfatherly types.
At least the young Cleric of Sarenrae felt ashamed...
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Btw: What the heck can I do against Ray of Enfeeblement?
** spoiler omitted **
You do know that Ray of Enfeeblement's don't stack right? they can't keep zapping and dropping strength. Think of it as an Anti Bull's Strength. You don't let them keep slapping Bull's Strength on do you? With both spells all you do is increase the duration.
As for the party not bonding thing, I am beginning to think that Edge of Anarchy should have a warning on it, "For mature players who are not d*#$'s" on it. Tell them to get their heads into the game...or better all the advice you really need is already above, in this thread, and in a few other's of it's ilk.
I'll sumarize:
1) Talk to your players. Make sure CotCT (and AP's in general) are the right fit.
2) Remind the players that they need to meet you half way
2 a) For your specific situation remind them that you are the DM and if they want to hash over the game they are more than welcome to but you are going home (or if it is your place they are going home) and can do it on their own time.
3) Murderers and scoundrels get what they deserve. Lock them up, execute them, whatever is in the stories best interest but they earn the worst punishment any PC can and that is they lose all of their screen time.
4) The Brooch is the first way to get the party involved. Whoever has it will learn that no one will buy it and you have to turn it in at the castle. There you will learn that there are riches to be had, but you'll need the help of a pretty good team (you know like a party of PC's)
5) Zellara will tolerate no fools. If the PC who has the deck is not going to be good for Korvosa (and by that I mean the DM) then the deck moves to someone who is better suited. Zellara will provide everything any true hero (and not all PC's qualify as hero's lets face it) needs to get motivated into helping.
6) if 4 or 5 don't work I suggest you reexamine 1 and 2
7) Don't forget, or let the players forget, it's a game and everyone, including the DM has to have fun for it to be a success.
Good luck.
You do know that Ray of Enfeeblement's don't stack right? they can't keep zapping and dropping strength.
Btw: What the heck can I do against Ray of Enfeeblement?
It doesn't stack, but apparently you can keep trying for a higher number with re-castings."This penalty does not stack with itself. Apply the highest penalty instead." (So if you totaled a 3 the first casting, and a 5 on the 2nd casting, the 5 would then apply instead. Never exceeding their maximum possible of 1d6+?(1-5))
As for the party not bonding thing, I am beginning to think that Edge of Anarchy should have a warning on it, "For mature players who are not d*#$'s" on it. Tell them to get their heads into the game...
We (in Brutesquad's 2 groups) never had this problem in either group, but it does seem to be common. Gaedren was a bit of an over-hyped goal, so I can see why things tend to drop off there and have even seen(on the boards) where PLAYERS have up and decided to make new characters because their motivation is gone/completed. We have had our moments when we've gotten lost, but I don't think it was any sort of unwillingness to participate.
I agree with Brutesquad and others, the Queen's Brooch and Zellara's Deck are the two biggest motivators/hooks once the party has given Gaedren the smack-down.
The problem with Enfeeblement is not so much the duration or whether it stacks or not, but that it easily reduces most NPC's strength to below kobold-level.
Made the shingle chase obsolete and had them kill an Otyugh at level 2 without aid or anyone getting hurt. (Granted, I rolled abyssmally that night.)
Right now, I am doubtful whether the AP is right for my players. They are not much into the intrigue-thing and they obviously want more heads to bash in.
But thanks for the advice so far.
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The problem with Enfeeblement is not so much the duration or whether it stacks or not, but that it easily reduces most NPC's strength to below kobold-level.
Made the shingle chase obsolete and had them kill an Otyugh at level 2 without aid or anyone getting hurt. (Granted, I rolled abyssmally that night.)
Right now, I am doubtful whether the AP is right for my players. They are not much into the intrigue-thing and they obviously want more heads to bash in.
But thanks for the advice so far.
Well, Ray of Enfeeblement is potent. I just realized something last night about it actually. Pathfinder gave it a Fort for half. That is rather helpful. Assuming you can make the Fort save. Now that being said a large number of enemies it won't be very useful on. It is a one or two bad guy kind of spell. And don't forget, what is good for the goose is good for the gander. There are some spell casters comming up. They could hit the PC's with it to. At first you might say, eh the arcane doesn't need strength but if you make them figure out their encumbrance I bet a good dose of Ray of Enfeeblement will easily put them into heavy encumbrance.
I have been frustrated by Ray of Enfeeblement several times over the years. That is one you'll just have to wait for the players to tire of probably.
My first group is a bit more of a kick in the door, kick @#%, take names and get the #@$% out kind of group. They are doing ok in this AP but yea, I think a group more interested in the story than the numbers are going to enjoy this path a lot more. My second group is much more into RP, they were blown away by the end of Seven Days to the Grave and the beginning of Escape from Old Korvosa because to them the characters in the city are real people who they know and have come to like or hate. The first group was like "Who got what? oh...did we know him? Huh...Sucks to be him I guess"
I know there are groups who love this AP. I also know there are groups who are ambivelent. Each group has it's own dynamic and matching the game to them is sometimes the hardest part of DMing.
*shocked*
So it now is a Ranged Touch Attack with a safe for half? That will not sit well with our sorcerer...
... but then the safe is a little beside the point: The toughies have high Fort saves anyway and the "weak of physique" usually don't rely on Strength...
An opinion please:
As I said before, I intend to restyle the last encounter, replacing the Derro Vreeg with a mad Halfling (in my mind they are wicked anyway) Necromancer 6. Do you think this is feasible or is it too powerful? I lose the SR and hitpoints, but then I don't understand why Derro should live beneath Korvosa's cemetery.
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Spoiler:As I said before, I intend to restyle the last encounter, replacing the Derro Vreeg with a mad Halfling (in my mind they are wicked anyway) Necromancer 6. Do you think this is feasible or is it too powerful? I lose the SR and hitpoints, but then I don't understand why Derro should live beneath Korvosa's cemetery.
Reply
I would probably give him Bull's strength (for that innevitable ray of enfeeblement) or Flamming sphere (after he's flying and put himself in a hard place for the party to hit him reliably he can then use a move action to move the sphere and a standard to cast other spells)for his 2nd lvl spell.
And probably Hold person, Blink, or another vampiric touch for 3rd level.
His hp line would then be 6d6+18 (39) Kind of a drop off from the 60 he has in the book. You might also consider making that 3rd level extended Bear's Endurance but that is only an extra 12 hps and +2 fort save. Still not exactly stellar.
Or you could give him a level of NPC class. Adept or Warrior would probably be best. An extra HD + 3 (con). You wouldn't have to add anything to his CR as that first level of NPC is pretty useless except for the hp's. The Adept casting kind of makes up for those Spell Like's the Derro lost but the warrior gives him the bab and extra hp's.
Btw: What the heck can I do against Ray of Enfeeblement?
** spoiler omitted **As for the party not bonding thing, I am beginning to think that Edge of Anarchy should have a warning on it, "For mature players who are not d*#$'s" on it. Tell them to get their heads into the game...or better all the advice you really need is already above, in this thread, and in a few other's of it's ilk.
2) Remind the players that they need to meet you half way
2 a) For your specific situation remind them that you are the DM and if they want to hash over the game they are more than welcome to but you are going home (or if it is your place they are going home) and can do it on their own time.3) Murderers and scoundrels get what they deserve. Lock them up, execute them, whatever is in the stories best interest but they earn the worst punishment any PC can and that is they lose all of their screen time.
First of all, I agree that every adventure should have a disclaimer about no d*#$'s.
This sound like it was originally more of a party cohesion problem than an adventure problem. There are players out there who simply do their best to muck up a GMs plot (I've GMd for some and played with others...sometimes the same people until I put 2 and 2 together) or even worse, act to undermine the actions fo the rest of the party.
Sometimes this is just inexperience or the wrong kind of gaming experience. (Younger players or players who have only been in "all-evil" games or kick in the door dungeon crawl often have this problem. Then again, many players are just d*#$'s.)
Before starting any campaign, I always set out a few ground rules:
1) This is a Role Playing Game, so I expect everyone to play in character and hopefully play something different from themselves. Stretch a little.
2) You are the heroes. You don't have to be lawful good, you can even be occasional pickpockets or scoundrels, but you are the heroes and cannot do blatently evil things. You will be punished for being the bad guy.
3) You are a party. I don't mind side plots, but we don;t need any Wolverine style "I'm going off on a side adventure every week" characters. Talk to me about your hooks and we'll work them in. If you choose to constantly wander away from everyone else (who are hopefully following the storyline) then all CR limits are off... At the end of the day, you, as a group, need to discover WHY you are together and play that way...
4) There is a plot, and most of the time, it will be easy to see sort of where you should be heading. If the party decides, as a group, to do something else, we'll follow it, but the plot will progress without you.
5) NO anti-party schenanigans. You can act to stop someone from damaging the party or doing something evil, but deliberately attacking, threatening, or undermining other party members is a no-no.
6) Have fun. If you aren;t talk to me about why.
7) No texting during the game. Text once, you;re gone. (Obviously, emergency contacts or girlfriend/boyfriend 5 minute breaks are perfectly acceptable). Yes, I'm an anti-text Nazi and proud of it.
This keeps players from doing obviously disruptive things and gives the GM a chance to say "That's evil." or "Why would your character want to do that?" and give the rest of the party a chance to talk it out instead.
It's a little draconian, but after years (decades?) of gaming, I no longer have uch tolerance for players who just want to cause trouble or act up when there are lots of good players looking for GMs and groups. (My PF group is 5 or 6 right now...it would be 10 or 11 if I let all of the troublemakers who played the Demo Campaign into the AP.)
Feel free to tell players that they have to have fun, but they also need to play along with the story.
Made my mind up, I will attack them on their home turf and threaten their home and favourite inn. Should make a nice reminder that the unrests are real. Might even confront them with their prejudices: save some Hellknights, like...
Tinkered a bit with Halfling Vreeg the evil Necromancer. Looks good, maybe a bit too good. Guess I need to push two of the characters. Three of them will be level 4 when they arrive in the dungeon, but the other two are struggling to keep up, because they both missed several sessions... As much as I like the new XP-System it makes catching up even harder.
I just hope they will all five be there when the s*#$ hits the fan. I always have the trouble of making an encounter too easy or way too hard. :(
Will keep you informed.
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Spoiler:Guess I need to push two of the characters. Three of them will be level 4 when they arrive in the dungeon, but the other two are struggling to keep up, because they both missed several sessions... As much as I like the new XP-System it makes catching up even harder.
I have a guy who misses about 1 in 4 or so games. We used to do the whole exp track for him, he would get more than everyone else because he was a lower letter yada yada yada. What I finally decided was that it was all a pain. He now gets the exp that everyone else has. He levels when they do etc. Now, I understand that he is not feeling the pain for not showing up. But...he really wishes he was here when he isn't.
Now, I know. Some folks would complain that he isn't being punished for missing the game. Or, conversely, others would complain that the players who show up week in week out are being shorted something. But are these statements truth? I have come to realize that in my world they are not. The only real reward for playing an RPG is the fun you get. You can't go to McBurger joint and give them exp or gp's for anything. If someone misses the game they don't have fun. Rewarding them with xp's for not showing isn't going to get them to not show the next time. They will or won't show based on if they can get to the game regardless. Not giving them xps for not showing probably doesn't get them to show up anymore than earning them does.
The entire paragraph above is asuming you are playing with reasonable adults. If you are playing with children or childish adults then go back to the hammer and fist of enforcement of the you play you get experience.
Simcha is happy! :D
We had a very good session last night!
The party found a very satisfying solution/concluson for the Trinia case, got a lot of clues and the PCs got closer relationships.
At the end they had to defend one PC's favourite Inn against some very daring looters! Got them a ton of fun and a new recurring villain to boot!
We even adressed the feedback issue and solved it rather satisfactorily.
Your advice helped me lots! Thankee! :D
So things have been going rather well since my earlier issues with running this AP - the characters are (mostly) getting along, and everyone is having a good time. Unfortunately, I've run into a bit of an issue, and I'm not sure if it's an issue of my own making.
We've gotten to Eel's End, where it appears that our heroes are going to be able to get what they need through diplomatic means (I suppose it's a good thing when two party members are recreational drug users?) with a little bit of palm-greasing and entertainment. However, at this point, my characters are still only about halfway to Level 3 (on the fast progression), which is what is recommended before moving onto the next part.
I've had them do some of the riot quests (including the otyugh, which was rather fun, having one of my characters reversing a grapple and grappling the otyugh), but here's my issue:
1) I've tried to scale up the encounters for higher difficulty (and therefore more XP) but if my party isn't at level 3 yet, is there something that I'm doing wrong?
2) Any ideas as to what I can have my party do during the downtime between Eels End and their next encounter? I'm planning on exploring their character hooks/origins a little more, but I'm going to need something with some 'meat' to give them enough XP to get over the hump.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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So things have been going rather well since my earlier issues with running this AP - the characters are (mostly) getting along, and everyone is having a good time. Unfortunately, I've run into a bit of an issue, and I'm not sure if it's an issue of my own making.
We've gotten to Eel's End, where it appears that our heroes are going to be able to get what they need through diplomatic means (I suppose it's a good thing when two party members are recreational drug users?) with a little bit of palm-greasing and entertainment. However, at this point, my characters are still only about halfway to Level 3 (on the fast progression), which is what is recommended before moving onto the next part.
I've had them do some of the riot quests (including the otyugh, which was rather fun, having one of my characters reversing a grapple and grappling the otyugh), but here's my issue:
1) I've tried to scale up the encounters for higher difficulty (and therefore more XP) but if my party isn't at level 3 yet, is there something that I'm doing wrong?
2) Any ideas as to what I can have my party do during the downtime between Eels End and their next encounter? I'm planning on exploring their character hooks/origins a little more, but I'm going to need something with some 'meat' to give them enough XP to get over the hump.
Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Story XP is your friend here. If they accomplish their goal, give them the reward for defeating him. If that doesn't work, boost it. They'll never know.
To be honest, during APs I completely ignore experience points and the party level when they hit story goals so that they're at about the right level. It's much easier that trying to count every little bit of XP.
Story XP is your friend here. If they accomplish their goal, give them the reward for defeating him. If that doesn't work, boost it. They'll never know.
To be honest, during APs I completely ignore experience points and the party level when they hit story goals so that they're at about the right level. It's much easier that trying to count every little bit of XP.
I definitely give out XP for roleplaying sessions and accomplishing story goals, and I definitely am picking up what you're laying down. I think I'll end up going with your suggestion, if only as a last resort.
I do appreciate the good word, though! Thanks!