Even with an 18 strength it is likely that carrying another pc will put you into the "heavy" encumbrance category. Which means your human or half-human will be moving slower than the dwarf :)
Both will be moving at 20 feet.
The PF half-orc is definitely better/more flexible/useful than the core 3.5 version. Is it balanced? People use that word so much in so many ways... I don't know about y'all, but I can't even grasp what it means anymore. Is it fun? I think so.
Now, I think, honestly, it could probably have used one more trait/ability than it has. But at the same time, I don't think it's a weak or terribly disadvantaged class. The abilities it does have are useful. The demoralization rules and the Dazzling Display trees make a creature with an innate bonus to Intimidate very useful.
And don't underestimate Ferocity. That can really make or break how a combat goes, especially at low levels (I saw a half-orc pretty much save a party from some serious hurting due to Ferocity). If you're making a half-orc Rogue, combine it with Resiliency for extra fun. The ability might also help save a Half-Orc barbarian from dropping due to exiting a rage and losing HP, at least right away.
Basically, like all racial abilities, you need to learn to use them to their best advantage. And the Half-Orc's advantage is that they're all powers that are dependent on the character and the character build... you don't have to hope to have sleep cast at you to prove you're immune, or hope you get to fight some giants or goblins today. You've always got that Ferocity and Intimidate and falchion proficiency whereever you go. (And that's also not to say that the abilities mentioned aren't good, or that the half-orc is better than other races, just that I think that those are pretty good abilities to have)
And the Half-Orc can be an awesome Rogue, or Bard, or Sorcerer, or Druid, or what have you, when it really couldn't before. It's going to take some time to think of the half-orc as a more flexible creature then "GAK SMASH WITH AXE," but it is now, which I'm happy about.
So yeah, in summary, I think it would be nice to give it another option or two, but I also don't think the race is shafted by any means.
For me, the problem is not the half-orc being weak, but the dwarf and elf being too strong. Honestly, I generally default to human, just because the flexibility of the feat/sp bonuses are preferable for me. Of the other races, however, the dwarf and elf really do outshine the rest. And of all the core races, half-orc has always come in last in power. That's just me and the groups I play in.
For me, the problem is not the half-orc being weak, but the dwarf and elf being too strong. Honestly, I generally default to human, just because the flexibility of the feat/sp bonuses are preferable for me. Of the other races, however, the dwarf and elf really do outshine the rest. And of all the core races, half-orc has always come in last in power. That's just me and the groups I play in.
well the dwarf does outshine other people when you want a high con/wis and low charisma, and the elf does outshine others when you want a high dex/int and low con(don't know who ever wants a low con), but when you want a high score with a penalty on other stats, some people like humans, half elves, and half orcs, and if you don't mind lower strength and small size some choose halflings and gnomes.
For me, the problem is not the half-orc being weak, but the dwarf and elf being too strong. Honestly, I generally default to human, just because the flexibility of the feat/sp bonuses are preferable for me. Of the other races, however, the dwarf and elf really do outshine the rest. And of all the core races, half-orc has always come in last in power. That's just me and the groups I play in.
Ignoring the ridiculous amount of splat material out there, Elves never struck me as being a powerful race. It could possibly have to do with the fact that I really dislike elves, but possibly not.
As far as core races go now, I'd say that gnomes and halflings got the short end of the stick. Gnomes make great bards, decent sorcerers, and modest wizards. Past that? Don't play a gnome. Halflings are almost worse. They managed to snatch up the absolute worst racial trait after losing their +1 bonus to thrown weapons. Proficiency with slings? Really? Only a wizard CAN benefit from it, and I pity the wizard who actually finds this useful.
The main point I'm trying to make is that each of the non-human races have a certain style of build that they excel at as well or better than other races, but I've always felt that the half-orc came out behind and the dwarf/elf did the best. The power difference isn't nearly as bad as it used to be, though. I just think the half-orc could still stand some love.
an 18 strength can let you carry a 12 year old girl on your shoulder. if she is of Tian decent, then the age range expands to accommodate low 20's. (as women from Tian Xia don't go much farther than 5 feet and rarely exceed 100 pounds)
I don't know what you're talking about, but it made me feel dirty...
Pretty balanced?Orc: +2 to any 1 stat
Dwarf: +2 con, wis, -2 chr
Balanced
I disagree, flexible stat bonuses are, well, flexible. The Dwarves stat bonuses are actually quite akward to fit into most classes and gain full benifit. The Elves bonuses seem geared towards Wizards, the Halflings bonuses seem geared towards Rogues...
The Dwarves stats seem geared towards Monks - which synergizes great with the heavy armor ability :P
Flexible stats mean that you can gear the character to the rest of the racial abilities.
Advantage: Half Orc
Orc: Darkvision
Dwarf: Darkvision
Balanced
Yep, and a nice ability it is for both races.
Orc: 30' move
Dwarf: 20' move, but is unaffected by armor or encumbrance
In most circumstances, Dwarf wins. ( Any armor but light drops your speed to 20' anyway )
Read this a number of times to ensure I wasn't mireading something. The best I can figure, since the Dwarf has the advantage if heavily encumbered AND medium or heavy armor, this means the dwarf wins.
Even though if they aren't wearing armor (Monk, Sorcerer, Wizard), or light armor (Bard, Rogue) the Half-Orc has the advantage?
Nope, this is a half-orc advantage.
Orc: intimidate +2
Dwarf: +2 to Appraise vs non-mag meta/gemstone items, +2 perception to notice stone anything( including traps )
We'll say the Orc wins this( slightly )
It's half-orc advantage. How many perception rolls are to notice stone anything? I've experienced entire campaigns where that ability would never come into play.
Orc: I got nothing
Dwarf: Gets to make perception checks for stone based anything whenever he passes within 10' even if not actively searching
Dwarf Wins
Sure, I don't know how useful that is, but it's better than nothing.
Orc: Remain conscious and able to take a partial action for 1 round while disabled 1/day
Dwarf: +2 sv vs poison, spells and spell-like abilities
Dwarf wins
*chokes* Reverse that. That's the premeire Half-Orc ability...go to negative HP and cast a heal spell, or any other action that keeps you from bleeding to death while the party finishes off the baddie.
Orc: Counts as orc and human
Dwarf: Counts as a dwarf
Not sure how many times this would come into play, but we'll say Orc wins. He needs a win.
I would say both are close enough to useless to call it a tie, just because an ability exists, doesn't make it of substantial value.
Orc: prof great axe, falcion and "orc" weapons: Core - Orc Double Axe
Dwarf: Proficient in battleaxes, heavy picks, warhammers and any weapon with "dwarven" in it's name. Core - Dwarven Waraxe, Dwarven Urgosh
We'll say balanced
I personally am a Falchion fan with the Crit feats, but balanced works for me.
Orc: We're out of abilities
Dwarf: +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the giant subtype.
Situational, but since the orc has nothing, Dwarf Wins
As you mention, won't be used very much, but yes, a win.
Orc: We're still out of abilities
Dwarf: +1 bonus on attack rolls against humanoid creatures of the orc and
goblinoid subtypes
Situational, but Dwarf wins. Especially since a half-orc counts as an orc...
Sure
Orc: ...
Dwarf: +4 racial bonus to their Combat Maneuver Defense when resisting abull rush or trip attempt while standing on the ground.
Sure, it's situational. But Dwarf still wins.
I notice the Dwarf "wins" tend to be, "This may not come up much but..."
How much value does that have?
Give the Half-Orc a situational modifier to notice leather breastplates with pink piggies dancing on top falling from ceilings. That should even it up.
If not, let them get a free roll to notice it. Then for sure.
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Give the Half-Orc a situational modifier to notice leather breastplates with pink piggies dancing on top falling from ceilings. That should even it up.
If not, let them get a free roll to notice it. Then for sure.
This made me bust out laughing at work, FYI.
As I said before, super situational abilities that may or may not ever even be used are not a 'win' each for the Dwarf.
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Lumi, you DO realize your speaking greek to the vast majority of those here (except those who understand literal greek, in which case your speaking something else entirely) right?
The honest truth is VERY FEW of the members of this forum seem oriented towards Manga/Anime, and among those who do I'd wager at most half of them are into the fast paced, bloody shonen style of Bleach.
Bingo, I thought he'd been possessed by the devil!
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Lumi, you DO realize your speaking greek to the vast majority of those here (except those who understand literal greek, in which case your speaking something else entirely) right?
The honest truth is VERY FEW of the members of this forum seem oriented towards Manga/Anime, and among those who do I'd wager at most half of them are into the fast paced, bloody shonen style of Bleach.
Bingo, I thought he'd been possessed by the devil!
you mean she. i was having a mental struggle with asmodeus. i still kinda am. asmodeus stop possessing me. why won't protection from evil work?
basically don't underestimate the utility of a passable strength score
any adventurer is going to want to save every pound of bodyweight possible within the range of common sense (even saving in areas where others would augment)
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[No worries Lum's, I knew you were a chick :)
(Also, I doubt they know what Petanko means either lol)
And yeah, it's true a high strength is a very good thing.
Infact, I've been thinking about it, alot, and there's a character I'd like to play in a PF game at some point.
A fighter, with leadership and the variant from races of Dragon that replaces armor proficiency with a natural toughness.
His leadership target? A little girl (halfling probably, the cha and dex bonuses are so fitting, though to get a strict GM to pass it I might need to use a gnome instead, because I will refuse to take her without the pink hair lol) who sits on his shoulder and...
sounds like a good idea. before the anime came out, i imagined the little girl as having platinum blonde hair. i was suprised by the fact her hair was pink. and i imagined ichigo as a strawberry blonde, i imagined aizen as having really dark brown hair that bordered black.
reading in black and white is fun, as you can color with your mindthe anime delivers set colorings. if dm says no to pink hair, there's always platinum blonde.
i'm guessing the fighter is named Kenpachi Zaraki and his cohort Yachiru Kusajishi? i'm guessing weapon of choice is a 2hand bastard sword? guessing the little girl is a finesse bard? (Dex/Cha low wis)
since i've never played the fighter, i guess i may have developed a habit of dumping strength (even with my clerics) but most of my characters either are children or are really good at posing as them.
What I am wondering is how the half-orc is balanced against the other player races? It seems like it's racial abilities don't stack up at all and that isn't taking into account the rp penalties it takes for having a negative social stigma in most locals. I mean, comparing it to the dwarf( the other medium race with darkvision ) I can't see how you would pick the half-orc unless you wanted to for rp purposes( which is totally understandable, but... ). I mean, if you were going to be creating a heavily charisma based character I guess( which still seems odd while playing a half-orc ). Just figured I'd ask and see if anyone had caught something I am missing.
Well, I also thought the Half-Orc was very unbalanced, but I developed a "racial comparison" scale for another project I am working on. I was surprised that the half-orc didn't come out as unbalanced as I thought (halflings actually came out the worse). Based on my ratings, the half-orc came out only slighty unbalanced. (Of course since I'm an orc-lover this greatly annoys me).
Since in Paizo's perception, half-orcs are more human than orc, I'm not sure there there is the concern of "social stigma" is as pronounced. (I'm also really not a big fan of humanizing half-orcs and giving them a +2 to an ability of their choice -- I still firmly believe that if you know you are up against a half-orc, you are up against a stronger-than-average race.)
Despite my dislike for the changes they made to half-orcs, they are not as badly balanced as they look at first glance... but indeed they are less balanced (according to my rating system) than all the other races, other than halflings.
My biggest problem with the half-orc isn't that their abilities didn't stand up to the other races (I came to the same conclusion as Kor, the losers there are halflings). Rather, I find them distinctly lacking in flavor-crunch synergy. Humans and half-elves are traditionally the flexible ones and they're both good at it, and while I appreciate half-orcs getting a little taste of that, too much makes them bland.
My solution was to give them +2 Str, -2 Cha, and +2 to any mental attribute of their choice (including Cha). So basically, they have the following options:
+2 Str, +2 Int, -2 Cha.
+2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha.
+2 Str.
My players and I have been pretty happy with this change. Everyone agrees it makes half-orcs feel more unique. They can still play any class effectively, but they'll generally do so with a different style than a human or half-elf. And they're not suddenly over-represented at the table (right now that's half-elves), so I don't think I broke anything. :)
Give the Half-Orc a situational modifier to notice leather breastplates with pink piggies dancing on top falling from ceilings. That should even it up.
If not, let them get a free roll to notice it. Then for sure.
This made me bust out laughing at work, FYI.
As I said before, super situational abilities that may or may not ever even be used are not a 'win' each for the Dwarf.
I was originally thinking a bonus to Perform (Comedy) for Half-Orcs whenever they get to make fun of a Dwarf because the player says "Is it stone?" when the DM announces a perception roll.
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My solution was to give them +2 Str, -2 Cha, and +2 to any mental attribute of their choice (including Cha). So basically, they have the following options:+2 Str, +2 Int, -2 Cha.
+2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha.
+2 Str.
My problem with this (though I like the concept) is that it incourages weird (that is non-thematic) class options. It makes the Half-Orc better Wizards than Clerics or Sorcerers.
Change that -2 Cha to Int and it would work much better (thematically). Maybe even give them the +1 Skill Point and -2 Diplomacy or something. Also, as is, they are sort of close to Dwarves with Str rather than Con.
[No worries Lum's, I knew you were a chick :)
(Also, I doubt they know what Petanko means either lol)
And yeah, it's true a high strength is a very good thing.
Infact, I've been thinking about it, alot, and there's a character I'd like to play in a PF game at some point.
A fighter, with leadership and the variant from races of Dragon that replaces armor proficiency with a natural toughness.
His leadership target? A little girl (halfling probably, the cha and dex bonuses are so fitting, though to get a strict GM to pass it I might need to use a gnome instead, because I will refuse to take her without the pink hair lol) who sits on his shoulder and...
sounds like a good idea. before the anime came out, i imagined the little girl as having platinum blonde hair. i was suprised by the fact her hair was pink. and i imagined ichigo as a strawberry blonde, i imagined aizen as having really dark brown hair that bordered black.
reading in black and white is fun, as you can color with your mind
the anime delivers set colorings. if dm says no to pink hair, there's always platinum blonde.i'm guessing the fighter is named Kenpachi Zaraki and his cohort Yachiru Kusajishi? i'm guessing weapon of choice is a 2hand bastard sword? guessing the little girl is a finesse bard? (Dex/Cha low wis)
You know, believe it or not I didn't know her last name. I'm not sure if I'd keep the names, but it's a basic concept that's fun, especially if I could get the GM to let me invoke Dragonfire Inspiration as well.
Weapon of choice is longsword (bastard sword is 'ok' but not really worth the feat and the style is more often than not single-handed)
Improved+Superior unarmed strike and two-weapon fighting might be a good idea though.
The girl is intended to be a primarily support bard, she'll probably get weapon finesse eventually, but she's more there for buffing, support magic, enemy debuffs and controls, etc.
Big guy's the muscle and...
Though you do not see it very often... that "little girl" is WAY powerful. (Very easy to forget she is a vice-captain and earned it!) Also she does not seem to "enhance" him in any way really except to get him lost. Seems to me she just hangs around her "Kenny" because he is fun and she owes him from their history together.
My biggest problem with the half-orc isn't that their abilities didn't stand up to the other races (I came to the same conclusion as Kor, the losers there are halflings)....
I disagree regarding halflings, I'm not sure why they are getting beaten up so much here.
Halflings have 2 downsides: slow movement and poor damage.
They are fairly a poor choices for martial classes but that's less than half the class options. Halflings are excellent Sorcerers, Bards, and Rogues, and they are also decent wizards and clerics. The speed issue is resolved with UMD and a wand of longstrider. Appropriately enough all of the classes halflings are good at have UMD :)
Compare this to dwarfs... Dwarfs are really not stellar at much of anything. They seem great on the surface but their oddball stat bonuses mean they are just not going to be awesome. CON is nice but it's not the primary ability for a single class. WIS is really nice for clerics but then they penalize CHA which burns your channeling. Bizarrely enough dwarfs make good monks and druids ??WTF, who would guess that??
(Note lots of sarcasm mixed with bits of truth here)
Orc: 30' move
Dwarf: 20' move, but is unaffected by armor or encumbrance
In most circumstances, Dwarf wins. ( Any armor but light drops your speed to 20' anyway )In light or no armor, the orc wins, with 30' move. In medium armor, they're tied, since they both move 20' and can run. In heavy armor, the dwarf wins, since they both move 20' but the dwarf can run. Considering only two classes in the game get heavy armor proficiency...
*SNIP*
A and if both are fighters of high enough level it becomes moot.
The dwarven ability is nice... but seems to be more useful for when you are not playing a dwarven melee type. Being able to dump your Strength stat as a dwarven wizard and still be able to carry all your junk with no penalties is nice. If you gotta run thats what the expeditious retreat spell is for.
Though you do not see it very often... that "little girl" is WAY powerful. (Very easy to forget she is a vice-captain and earned it!) Also she does not seem to "enhance" him in any way really except to get him lost. Seems to me she just hangs around her "Kenny" because he is fun and she owes him from their history together.True, but to represent them in D&D terms what I presented is a pretty solid way to handle it, if you get what I'm saying.
(And for what it's worth, she is always cheering him on, and bossing him around lmao)
True true... and considering Kenpachi's general attitude against those he does not perceive as "strong" brings that point of her ordering him around to a new light!
I can understand what you are saying though. It is a way to make your muscle guy stronger in game while playing on the characters apparent relationship.
EDIT: I also don't have any problem seeing Kenpachi as a Half-orc Barbarian with the Veiled Vileness feat. Perhaps toss in a couple of the "Roll-with-it" feats from Savage Species.
*SNIP*
EDIT: I also don't have any problem seeing Kenpachi as a Half-orc Barbarian with the Veiled Vileness feat. Perhaps toss in a couple of the "Roll-with-it" feats from Savage Species.
The variant I mentioned is Dragonscale Husk, from dragon magic. It grants an AC bonus equal to 6+1/3 your levels in the class that granted you heavy armor proficiency, max dex +2, ACP -4.
A little reflavoring and that's not any kind of husk, just how you naturally are.
Bingo, success :) (And at 3rd level, since it's treated as medium armor, the Fighter has full movement.)
Which can also work in favor of a Barbarian. Fast movement works with medium armor as well. The explosive strength, and all the nifty rage powers certainly fit a Kenpachi style character.
Perhaps a multi-class Barbarian/Fighter would work?
I think we've derailed this thread enough lol, start another thread if you like, I'd be happy to discuss options there.
I guess you are right. However, these threads never truly come to a marked conclusion anyway. Both sides debating strengths and weaknesses and each party having their own beliefs on how something should work...
All we can do is provide our thoughts on the matter and the reader will take what they want from the thread.
At this point it seems the debate has reached a "stalemate" as it were.
Unless Jason B. or some other Paizonian decides to join the chat and say "Yes! This is how it shall be!" Any suggestions we make will never be "canon".
On topic - it seems we have a fair balance between who believes Half-orcs are balanced and those who do not.
My solution was to give them +2 Str, -2 Cha, and +2 to any mental attribute of their choice (including Cha). So basically, they have the following options:+2 Str, +2 Int, -2 Cha.
+2 Str, +2 Wis, -2 Cha.
+2 Str.My problem with this (though I like the concept) is that it incourages weird (that is non-thematic) class options. It makes the Half-Orc better Wizards than Clerics or Sorcerers.
Change that -2 Cha to Int and it would work much better (thematically). Maybe even give them the +1 Skill Point and -2 Diplomacy or something. Also, as is, they are sort of close to Dwarves with Str rather than Con.
I picked Cha over Int for the penalty for a few different reasons. Mainly, it seems more appropriate to me that every half-orc has some self-esteem issues on account of Just Being Different. Human blood wipes out all of the full orc's mental penalties, but the basic nature of society reinstates one of them.
Yes, it makes the half-orc a suboptimal sorcerer... but not a terrible one. They're patently superior to dwarves in that role, and IMO come out ahead of elves... above-average Strength and proficiency with a good weapon are not completely wasted on the class.
Meanwhile, above-average Strength and proficiency with a good weapon are pretty damn solid for a cleric if your build isn't channel-centric. Enough so that I don't think they make "better" clerics than wizards. And that's before considering that Orc Ferociy favors the cleric hands-down. :)
Having said all that: I see no reason balance would be broken if you took the same idea and made Intelligence the base penalty. It was a hard choice in the first place, and it's certainly influenced by local campaign flavor.
*snip*
** spoiler omitted **...
edited... my finger slipped.
edited... my finger slipped.
Nothing personal, your slipped finger was just the final straw for me on that one. It seems like nearly everyone here types it with two N's, and it's been annoying the crap out of me. ;)
edited... my finger slipped.Nothing personal, your slipped finger was just the final straw for me on that one. It seems like nearly everyone here types it with two N's, and it's been annoying the crap out of me. ;)
I for one will attempt to keep my fingers in check. ;p
the halflings could be better, give them a 30 foot land speed (thier big unnapealing factor being 20 foot speed) and free weapon finesse. simple fix. most of the races are already pidgeonholed. this means play a rogue.
Halfling would be my first choice for arcane trickster(sorcerer type). +1 to all saves is a great ability, 20 ft movement is annoying but can easily be overcome if that is an issue.
Elf would be a good choice for wizard type.
I think we've derailed this thread enough lol, start another thread if you like, I'd be happy to discuss options there.I guess you are right. However, these threads never truly come to a marked conclusion anyway. Both sides debating strengths and weaknesses and each party having their own beliefs on how something should work...
All we can do is provide our thoughts on the matter and the reader will take what they want from the thread.
At this point it seems the debate has reached a "stalemate" as it were.
Unless Jason B. or some other Paizonian decides to join the chat and say "Yes! This is how it shall be!" Any suggestions we make will never be "canon".
On topic - it seems we have a fair balance between who believes Half-orcs are balanced and those who do not.
I would not play Pathfinder by the book anyway, it's by far in more need of house rules then any previous version either because of how familiar we all are with the basic 3.5 rules or because well Jason made some choices that not everyone will agree with in his version of 3.5.
I think Pathfinder half-orcs are balanced, but well not right for my game. I prefer set stats and drop the weapon prof because that is more a setting thing then based on the standard race skills.
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Darkvision, Darkness and Daylight being what they are now, any race with darkvision is now at a GREAT advantage. Go read the Darkness spell, the Light spell and the Daylight spell; then go read the Vision/Illumination section of the "Adventuring" chapter of the PRPG; then go read the above-mentioned spells again. You won't believe your eyes.
The dwarf is probably the strongest race there is currently, due to this, and closely followed by the half-orc. The 20' speed of the dwarf is probably its greatest flaw, but the rest rocks. 8,500gp is all a dwarf needs to solve the problem though (boots of elvenkind with continuous expeditious retreat effect, and the dwarf's speed is now at 50' with a Acrobatic bonus of +5).
(of course I'm only talking about core races: if you use the Bestiary and allow tieflings, aasimar, drow, etc. which are not balanced against the core races, the dwarf then loses out a little bit...)
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Pretty balanced?Orc: +2 to any 1 stat
Dwarf: +2 con, wis, -2 chr
BalancedI disagree, flexible stat bonuses are, well, flexible. The Dwarves stat bonuses are actually quite akward to fit into most classes and gain full benifit. The Elves bonuses seem geared towards Wizards, the Halflings bonuses seem geared towards Rogues...
The Dwarves stats seem geared towards Monks - which synergizes great with the heavy armor ability :P
Flexible stats mean that you can gear the character to the rest of the racial abilities.
Advantage: Half Orc
Orc: Darkvision
Dwarf: Darkvision
BalancedYep, and a nice ability it is for both races.
Orc: 30' move
Dwarf: 20' move, but is unaffected by armor or encumbrance
In most circumstances, Dwarf wins. ( Any armor but light drops your speed to 20' anyway )Read this a number of times to ensure I wasn't mireading something. The best I can figure, since the Dwarf has the advantage if heavily encumbered AND medium or heavy armor, this means the dwarf wins.
Even though if they aren't wearing armor (Monk, Sorcerer, Wizard), or light armor (Bard, Rogue) the Half-Orc has the advantage?
Nope, this is a half-orc advantage.
Orc: intimidate +2
Dwarf: +2 to Appraise vs non-mag meta/gemstone items, +2 perception to notice stone anything( including traps )
We'll say the Orc wins this( slightly )It's half-orc advantage. How many perception rolls are to notice stone anything? I've experienced entire campaigns where that ability would never come into play.
Orc: I got nothing
Dwarf: Gets to make perception checks for stone based anything whenever he passes within 10' even if not actively searching
Dwarf WinsSure, I don't know how useful that is, but it's better than nothing.
...Orc: Remain conscious and able to take a partial action for 1 round while disabled 1/day
Dwarf: +2 sv vs poison, spells and spell-like
Hey Treantmonk. I like your guides, so nothing personal, but... Your implication, I believe, is that situational modifiers shouldn't be weighed as much as non-situational modifiers. Then you say that you can use ferocity to heal yourself when you fall below zero. This seems fairly dependent on class choice or item selection. Also this only happens once each day. I am not saying it is horrible, but I don't think it compares well with the sv bonus. I have been in parties with people who play dwarves quite a bit and they are constantly making saves for which their bonus applies.
As for the floating bonus vs pigeon holed bonus, I'll give that too you because I don't feel strongly one way or the other. It( like most things ) depends on your concept and character idea. We can give it to the half-orc for flexibility.
Movement: I guess I am coming from a different gaming background. We are required to keep track of everything we are carrying so encumbrance becomes a real concern fairly quickly. Especially for typically low strength classes. You seem to have skipped over the encumbrance section on your rebuttal. The armor penalty negation is nice for the armor wearing classes, but the encumbrance is where I see the most use out of this particular ability.
As for the notice stonework things, it's come up in games a lot more than I would have thought it would when I first heard about the ability. Dungeon delving usually has stone floors, ceilings, walls for which perception checks to notice secret doors, traps, recent construction, possible cave in locations, weak floors, illusions that cover the pit in the middle of the hallway, etc. Outside of dungeon crawls, possible landslide areas, weaknesses in stone buildings( including everything mentioned in dungeon delving ). The bonus to appraise checks comes in fairly often too when trying to determine what to sell your loot for. Weapons, armor, jewelry, etc. I was giving the win to the half-orc for this because you could choose when to use intimidate or to make a character around it. I have seen people who have never used intimidate in an entire campaign.
And I'll give you the ability to passively sense stonework anomalies is very situation, that doesn't mean it's nearly useless. I'd still like to have the roll to notice the trap we are about to set off though.
Most of the abilities presented in the race listings are situational. If you don't go in certain directions, you aren't going to get much use out of them. The humans racial abilities are, obviously, the least dependent on situational modifiers as you can choose what your benefits will be. I am sure I can come up with scenarios where every race is the best race for that particular scenario.
On a side note, I know you pride yourself in being diplomatic and non-inflammatory on the boards. That's why I was slightly surprised by some of your remarks. Occasionally you deemed it necessary to belittle my opinions through hyperbole or snide remarks. That's fine, but it is more likely to cause flame wars and less likely to change the point of view of the person you are debating with. You merely put them on the defensive, which makes it less likely they will try to understand your point of view.
We can definitely agree to see these points in a different light, I don't think any given interpretation of usefulness will work in all situations or be agreed upon by all individuals.
Enjoy the boards and keep posting your guides.
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Movement: I guess I am coming from a different gaming background. We are required to keep track of everything we are carrying so encumbrance becomes a real concern fairly quickly. Especially for typically low strength classes. You seem to have skipped over the encumbrance section on your rebuttal. The armor penalty negation is nice for the armor wearing classes, but the encumbrance is where I see the most use out of this particular ability.
In games I run, we're fairly strict about encumbrance and tracking it. But most of the people in the party either travel as lightly as possible, and if that still puts them over the threshold, they'll keep their heavier equipment in a backpack that they can drop on the ground at the beginning of combat. Otherwise they'll make a Handy Haversack a priority item to craft or buy, or else get creative (such as paying the dwarf 1gp a day to carry their bedroll/other extra gear).
Hey Treantmonk. I like your guides, so nothing personal, but...
Thanks!
Your implication, I believe, is that situational modifiers shouldn't be weighed as much as non-situational modifiers.
Absolutely - otherwise Hold Person and Hold Monster would be the same level spell - since they do the same thing. What makes Hold Person weaker is that it has a situational modifier that you can't control.
Then you say that you can use ferocity to heal yourself when you fall below zero. This seems fairly dependent on class choice or item selection.
That's true, but that is a situational modifier you can control. You've got the racial ability, so you ensure that you have the ability to use it effectively. I have to use the dreaded "O" word (*whispers* "Optimization"), but we are discussing mechanics here...
Of course, it doesn't NEED to be healing. Casting Bear's Endurance or False Life if you are a wizard might do the trick, or Raging if you are a Barbarian, or using a Cure wand if you are a rogue. The idea is to use the standard action to not be a body, dying on the ground.
If I'm playing a Half-Orc, I'm investing in a way to use that standard action to get myself back in action. I have that control.
Movement: I guess I am coming from a different gaming background. We are required to keep track of everything we are carrying so encumbrance becomes a real concern fairly quickly. Especially for typically low strength classes.
Usually I want a haversack whether encumbrance is an issue or not. Getting what you need as a move action is very handy.
However, yes, our group is not all that strict on encumbrance, We usually have good bags of holding that a strong member of the party has, and everyone has a haversack, the weaker characters usually aren't wearing armor...etc. So generally we aren't keeping track of encumbrance unless there's been a Str drain or something.
As for the notice stonework things <snip>
Again I would call notice to the ability to control the situational modifier. I've played whole campaigns where I haven't used intimidate either - usually because I don't have the skill.
However, if I have a bonus to intimidate, then I'm going to take the skill and use it. The opportunity to use social skills comes up quite a bit, and in Pathfinder, you can use intimidate with Dazzling Display as well.
As for the stonework thing, I don't see it coming up in dungeons much either (at least in campaigns I've been in). Things like secret doors are usually made of wood or occassionally metal in the dungeons I've been in, and personally, I've never been in a dungeon where we haven't been able to find the secret door (since you can take 20 on search checks).
And I'll give you the ability to passively sense stonework anomalies is very situation, that doesn't mean it's nearly useless. I'd still like to have the roll to notice the trap we are about to set off though.
If you have the trapfinding ability...and aren't looking for traps anyways...
If you are a dwarven rogue, and the trapfinder in the party, I will give you the stonework stuff as coming up occassionally, certainly in a stone laden environment.
If not, I stand behind calling it "useless"
Most of the abilities presented in the race listings are situational. If you don't go in certain directions, you aren't going to get much use out of them.
That's true, of course, some of those directions are your choice, and others rely on the whim of the DM or campaign direction.
The former are the better abilities IMO.
Occasionally you deemed it necessary to belittle my opinions through hyperbole or snide remarks.
Yes, I was being purposely contenteous. I was trying to be humorous/sarcastic, not to offend.
I apologize if I did. I've avoided sarcasm in this post, and will do so in the future on this thread.
So, hate to participate in thread derail, but.....
In defense of the Halflings!
I've been a halfling player since forever. For those who think they're pigeonholed into being rogues, I say..Bah! I haven't played a Halfling rogue since 2nd edition. My most memorable halfling was indeed a martial based char...3.0 rules, level 2 fighter, level 2 barbarian, level 2 ranger, and was about to hit frenzied berserker when he got squished by ogres (Due to the whole party rolling crappy for many turns in a row).
And you know what? He was the party's #1 damage dealer/crazy fighter...starting with a 16 in strength, dropping to 14 for race....so 18 in rage. Using the mighty weapon of the Halfling Greatsword...(Known to you as a human sized longsword, back when 3.0 was the thing), at level 1 he was moving at speed 30 (Which really helped), attacking with a +hit of 6 in rage (4 strength, 1 BAB, 1 size), with an actually pretty strong AC, in/out of rage (Chain shirt, 16 dex, size modifier...that +1 size modifier to both AC and hit came in handy a _lot_), doing 1d8+6 damage in rage (sure, only 1d8+3 outside)...and had the hidden loot advantage of having his killer 2hand weapon be a longsword, which is the #1 weapon to find in the game for upgrades.
Plus...well, there's the utter surprise value of the crazy melee halfling out of nowhere :).
There is always Belker Bitterleaf. :D
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@Treantmonk thanks for the reply. In general I don't mind humor/sarcasm, but I feel it detracts from debates. Usually people use it as a mechanism to trivialize or obfuscate their opponents point rather than letting logic or reason speak for itself. I am not saying you were trying to do so, but I guess it's a pet peeve.
Anyway, I can definitely see your point of view and rationale in regards to the above points. I am not sure I completely agree with them, but you've definitely given me things to think about. Which is handy as I am going to be playing a half-orc in an upcoming campaign. I like the flavor/rp aspect of them even if I think their abilities aren't quite up to par with some of the other races. Which is obviously an opinion. My gaming group hasn't played with half-orcs yet, so maybe I'll change my mind after playing one for a bit.
Thanks for the input!
As for the stonework thing, I don't see it coming up in dungeons much either (at least in campaigns I've been in). Things like secret doors are usually made of wood or occassionally metal in the dungeons I've been in...
Err... but the wall is generally made of stone, and a giant hole in it (required to place a door) is definitely an anomaly!
edited... my finger slipped.Nothing personal, your slipped finger was just the final straw for me on that one. It seems like nearly everyone here types it with two N's, and it's been annoying the crap out of me. ;)
I thought the point of the internet was that it's where literacy goes to die.
Batts
edited... my finger slipped.Nothing personal, your slipped finger was just the final straw for me on that one. It seems like nearly everyone here types it with two N's, and it's been annoying the crap out of me. ;)I thought the point of the internet was that it's where literacy goes to die.
Batts
I'm pretty sure you're thinking of courtesy and original thought. ;)