Casting a spell from a scroll

[Miralus]

I understand the rules in general for reading a scroll (I think). There is one case I'm not sure about. Some spells are on different spell lists at different levels (e.g. Hideous Laughter is a 1st level Bard and 2nd level Wizard spell).

So when a wizard finds a Hideous Laughter scroll written by a Bard, does he need the Intelligence to match the spell where it is on the Wizard list (level 2, Int 12) or where it is on the Bard list (level 1, Int11)?

And if he needs to consider it at its position on the Wizard list (3rd level) what is the DC of the spell when cast (i.e. does it count as a 1st or 2nd level spell)?

The question comes up when one finds or buys a scroll of a spell like this. Now you need to be aware of not just whether it is arcane or divine, but which class actually scribed it.

I'm not sure if there are any real exploits, but if we ignore by whom it was scribed, then a Wizard can buy scrolls of HL scribed by a Bard at CL1/1st level and cast them as CL1/ 2nd level (so a higher DC). The same issue arises with Wands.

My feeling is that we'll need to track both the type (Arcane/Divine) and who crafted it. So a Hideous Laugh scroll scribed by a Bard will have a lower DC than one scribed by a Wizard regardless of who reads the scroll.

Is this the correct interpretation? I skimmed the 3.5 FAQ and the PF rules and didn't see this discussed, but I probably just overlooked something.

Thanks.

[Viletta Vadim]

All scrolls have a requisite ability score. However, this is not necessarily intelligence for arcane, wisdom for divine.

If you find that Bard scroll of Hideous Laughter, it was scribed as a 1st-level Bard spell. Bard casting is based on charisma, and therefore the requisite ability score is 11 charisma.

If you reverse engineer an Archivist from 3.5 for Pathfinder, then Archivist scrolls are divine spells, yes, but require a high intelligence score to cast. If you reverse engineer the Favored Soul and get them to make divine scrolls, then it depends on your charisma. You could have three different scrolls of Cure Light Wounds that all rely on a different casting stat, if you really wanted.

And it's only really important to keep track of if the scroll isn't the default. Unless your players are in off classes and making scrolls themselves, it's usually safe to assume arcane scrolls are made by Wizards and divine scrolls are made by Cleric/Druids.

In Pathfinder, there's no real exploit for this, save that it lets, say, Bards with strong charisma and so-so intelligence use Sorcerer scrolls more easily. However, in 3.5, there was the Archivist class who could learn any divine spell, and the nature of scrolls allowed them to do things like get Lesser Restoration (normally a 2nd-level Cleric spell) as a 1st-level spell by plucking it from a Paladin scroll. That example may not be egregious, but I believe there were ways to get Haste as a first-level spell that way, and you could get Irresistible Dance as a 6th-level spell (instead of 8th) by getting it from a Divine Bard scroll. Among others. Basically, Archivists could get any spell in the game at the lowest level possible.

[Crimson Jester]

ARCANE MAGICAL WRITINGS
To record an arcane spell in written form, a character uses complex notation that describes the magical forces involved in the spell. The writer uses the same system no matter what her native language or culture. However, each character uses the system in his own way. Another person's magical writing remains incomprehensible to even the most powerful wizard until he takes time to study and decipher it.

Spoiler:

To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in another's spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell's level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.
Once a character deciphers a particular piece of magical writing, he does not need to decipher it again. Deciphering magical writing allows the reader to identify the spell and gives some idea of its effects (as explained in the spell description). If the magical writing is a scroll and the reader can cast arcane spells, he can attempt to use the scroll.

DIVINE MAGICAL WRITINGS

Spoiler:

Divine spells can be written and deciphered like arcane spells (see Arcane Magical Writings). A Spellcraft check can decipher divine magical writing and identify it. Only characters who have the spell (in its divine form) on their class spell list can cast a divine spell from a scroll.

Use Magic Device

Spoiler:

(CHA; TRAINED ONLY)
You are skilled at activating magic items, even if you are not otherwise trained in their use.
Check: You can use this skill to read a spell or to activate a magic item. Use Magic Device lets you use a magic item as if you had the spell ability or class features of another class, as if you were a different race, or as if you were of a different alignment.
You make a Use Magic Device check each time you activate a device such as a wand. If you are using the check to emulate an alignment or some other quality in an ongoing manner, you need to make the relevant Use Magic Device check once per hour.
You must consciously choose which requirement to emulate. That is, you must know what you are trying to emulate when you make a Use Magic Device check for that purpose. The DCs for various tasks involving Use Magic Device checks are summarized on the table below.

Use a Scroll: Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll's spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don't have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check.

SCRIBE SCROLL (ITEM CREATION)

Spoiler:

You can create magic scrolls.
Prerequisite: Caster level 1st.
Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you know. Scribing a scroll takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise scribing a scroll takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. To scribe a scroll, you must use up raw materials costing half of this base price. See the magic item creation rules in Magic Items for more information.

Scrolls

A scroll is a spell (or collection of spells) that has been stored in written form. A spell on a scroll can be used only once. The writing vanishes from the scroll when the spell is activated. Using a scroll is basically like casting a spell. The price of a scroll is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 25 gp. If the scroll has a material component cost, it is added to the base price and cost to create. Table: Scrolls gives sample prices for scrolls created at the lowest possible caster level for each spellcasting class. Note that some spells appear at different levels for different casters. The level of such spells depends on the caster scribing the scroll.

Physical Description:

Spoiler:

A scroll is a heavy sheet of fine vellum or high-quality paper. An area about 8-1/2 inches wide and 11 inches long is sufficient to hold one spell. The sheet is reinforced at the top and bottom with strips of leather slightly longer than the sheet is wide. A scroll holding more than one spell has the same width (about 8-1/2 inches) but is an extra foot or so long for each additional spell. Scrolls that hold three or more spells are usually fitted with reinforcing rods at each end rather than simple strips of leather. A scroll has AC 9, 1 hit point, hardness 0, and a break DC of 8.
To protect it from wrinkling or tearing, a scroll is rolled up from both ends to form a double cylinder. (This also helps the user unroll the scroll quickly.) The scroll is placed in a tube of ivory, jade, leather, metal, or wood. Most scroll cases are inscribed with magic symbols which often identify the owner or the spells stored on the scrolls inside. The symbols sometimes hide magic traps.

Activation: To activate a scroll, a spellcaster must read the spell written on it. This involves several steps and conditions.
Decipher the Writing:

Spoiler:

The writing on a scroll must be deciphered before a character can use it or know exactly what spell it contains. This requires a read magic spell or a successful Spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). Deciphering a scroll is a full-round action.
Deciphering a scroll to determine its contents does not activate its magic unless it is a specially prepared cursed scroll. A character can decipher the writing on a scroll in advance so that she can proceed directly to the next step when the time comes to use the scroll.

Activate the Spell:

Spoiler:

Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.[spoiler]
• The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
• The user must have the spell on her class list.
• The user must have the requisite ability score.
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell's caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll's caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers. Activating a scroll is a standard action (or the spell's casting time, whichever is longer) and it provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

Determine Effect:

Spoiler:

A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll spell's caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber specifically desired otherwise.
The writing for an activated spell disappears from the scroll as the spell is cast.

Scroll Mishaps:

Spoiler:

When a mishap occurs, the spell on the scroll has a reversed or harmful effect. Possible mishaps are given below.
• A surge of uncontrolled magical energy deals 1d6 points of damage per spell level to the scroll user.
• Spell strikes the scroll user or an ally instead of the intended target, or a random target nearby if the scroll user was the intended recipient.
• Spell takes effect at some random location within spell range.
• Spell's effect on the target is contrary to the spell's normal effect.
• The scroll user suffers some minor but bizarre effect related to the spell in some way. Most such effects should last only as long as the original spell's duration, or 2d10 minutes for instantaneous spells.
• Some innocuous item or items appear in the spell's area.
• Spell has delayed effect. Sometime within the next 1d12 hours, the spell activates. If the scroll user was the intended recipient, the spell takes effect normally. If the user was not the intended recipient, the spell goes off in the general direction of the original recipient or target, up to the spell's maximum range, if the target has moved away.

[Kevin Andrew Murphy]

1st ed sidestepped this by having arcane scrolls and divine scrolls and the twain never meeting, and indeed there were even wizard scrolls and illusionist scrolls since they got their spells at different levels. Compartmentalizing them like this will at least skirt the issue, though it will get complicated if people are taking things like feats and substitution levels and prestige classes that give them spells off their regular class list or at different levels.

I think I'd have to rule as follows:

1. You can use any scroll of any spell that you have on your class list.
2. You can use any scroll of any spell that is on your expanded personal list due to prestige classes, substitution levels, clerical domains, feats, etc. If it is of a higher level than you can cast, you have a chance of failure same as normal.
3. The spell level of a scroll is at whatever level the creator set it--usually his default level, but this can be raised via metamagic.
4. The type of energy in the scroll remains as empowered by the original creator. A wizard can use a scroll created by a cleric if it's a spell on his own class list, but the spell will still be cast as a divine spell, the same as it would be if a rogue or bard used Use Magic Device to make it work.
5. Wizards scribing spells into their spellbooks from scrolls penned by other classes scribe these as arcane spells at their class's usual levels, regardless of who scribed the original scroll or any metamagic feats added to them.
6. The stat and level required for you to understand a spell written by someone of a different class is the same as it would be for you to understand a spell from your own class. Wizards cast with intelligence and sorcerers cast with charisma but they still understand each other's scrolls just fine.

At least that's how I'd rule. I think it's the only way to keep things straight and avoid broken stuff.

[James Risner]

Miralus wrote:

wizard finds a Hideous Laughter scroll written by a Bard

My feeling is that we'll need to track both the type (Arcane/Divine) and who crafted it.

Scrolls only differentiate between Arcane and Divine in the rules.

The rules are silent on how to handle your question, but they do say if you copy this into a Spellbook it appears as a spell of your class (so a Bard spell of a different level becomes the level of the spell on the Wizard spell list when copied into his spellbook.)

I suspect the intent is to maintain the DC of the Creator of the wand/scroll.