Post ate. Argh. I'll try and summarize.
Yes I am saying that. Maybe I'm just being annoying, sorry about that! lol I think that the "impossible to stealth while attacking" should have a bit longer of a look at it. I could be way off base, but I think it's more in line with rules as written and intended.
Debating the literal written rule is about the only thing we can do, no one here is one of the game designers and so no one knows what was "intended," no one. Arguing RAI is a trap and a bad idea in general. Do what you like in your game, it is your game so it is fine to play it how you think it makes sense. However on an internet forum such as this the only thing we can do is look at the rules and say "these are all the pertinent items on the subject and here is what possible outcomes are when they are used together." If you go play in a "competitive" game, they aren't going to care what your feelings are on the subject, strict RAW is what they have to judge by because everyone in the game could have a different take on it and it needs to be fair.
Basically, in a combat round of 6 seconds, each action is simmultaneous. So in the case of attacking, then moving and stealthing, and only later I "catch up" to you and try and find you, that's not quite accurate to what happens. In the same round, the same 6 seconds, I'm right behind you in pursuit. You never get a chance to stealth because I'm right next to you working my opportunity to stick my sword through you.
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If I never know you're there (i.e. already stealthed) you can move up to and around me until your hearts content if I don't find you. The key is, as soon as you attack, you can no longer stealth until combat is resolved. (You flee or something else ends combat).
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That's how I'm reading it. If it is impossible to stealth while attacking, with Snipe being the only exception mentioned, then it should be impossible to stealth while attacking.
Except 6 seconds isn't simulatneous, even in its most rudamentary form, the rules allow for exactly what you are saying shouldn't happen. In that six seconds, person A is attacking person B (they are in combat). Person B performs a bluff check successfully, then proceeds to make a stealth roll (beating the perception check of person A) and leave the area (maybe going around a corner or down a hallway through a door, whatever)- all during combat. You are basing your reasoning on something that has no rules backing, that you cannot stealth during combat. You may not like the idea of that, it may not fit your point of view on the subject but the rules written and published in the book don't share that view with you.
All it takes is a blink of the eye or a flinch to lose sight of someone, and if they are good they can capitalize on it. That is a reality and if that could happen in reality you are going to suggest it isn't possible in a game of fantasy?
As for your definition of attack, attack doesn't equal combat, that much is clear. The scenario I described is something allowed by the rules and plainly debunks your suggestion that you cannot stealth once combat has started. If you want to view "attacking" as a general combat situation in your game, again that is fine, the game doesn't define it that way though. Normally the definition of an attack is either a free action (spells that allow touch attacks typically are free actions to make the attack after the casting of the spell), standard action (getting one attack with a weapon, casting an offensive spell, using an item to create an offensive effect) or a full round action (irritative attacks and all that entails, charge). When those actions are performed, stealth goes away, the character becomes visible/apparent. The only exception listed to those is the sniping rule, otherwise any time the act of attacking someone when using stealth breaks the stealth, not the action leading to the attack, but the actual attack action. That allows someone who made stealth roll to sneak up (move) and make an attack(attack action). Provided the character can meet the criteria to hide again, and has the ability to act on it (IE cannot hide on someone elses turn) they can hide as per the rules regardless of what is going on around them. That means after an attack, you could stealth again while in combat. The attack action occurs, you couldn't stealth while that was happening, but on your remaining move action you could attempt to stealth again as long as it wasn't some sort of attack action.
Basically, in a combat round of 6 seconds, each action is simmultaneous. So in the case of attacking, then moving and stealthing, and only later I "catch up" to you and try and find you, that's not quite accurate to what happens. In the same round, the same 6 seconds, I'm right behind you in pursuit. You never get a chance to stealth because I'm right next to you working my opportunity to stick my sword through you.
True, a round is measured as 6 seconds. But beyond that there are no rules that say each action of each character's turn happens simultaneously and therefore affect eachother.
If we took your interpretation than a whole host of things, which are common tactics in combat, would be impossible. For instance: A Wizard would not be able to move away (5' step) from an opponent and cast a spell without fear of AoO, because the character adjacent to him in his next turn would close distance and attack. But that is not the case, and it is a common tactic for casters and archers to take a 5' step away from adjacent enemies to escape AoO. There is nothing in the rules that states: "A PC's turn is affected by the subsequent actions of NPC's in following turns."
And the Movement/Stealth, Attack, Movement/Stealth tactic is not like attacking and then moving 15' and hiding. You close distance under cover of Stealth, stab your enemy in the back, then as you take your first step away from him you are reentering Stealth. There would only be a space of about one maybe two seconds where you are visible and during that time you are stabbing your enemy in the back. It is perfectly reasonable to say the enemy would not have time to stop you from hiding again. And even if he did have time to strike back that would not stop someone from using Stealth. The only thing that would normally stop someone from using Stealth is being observed, but someone with HiPS can hide even if observed. This isn't like casting a spell where if you are attacked you might fail. You are either observed or you are not. If you are being observed then you may not use Stealth, unless you have HiPS in which case you can.
If I never know you're there (i.e. already stealthed) you can move up to and around me until your hearts content if I don't find you. The key is, as soon as you attack, you can no longer stealth until combat is resolved. (You flee or something else ends combat).
The text says it is impossible to use Stealth while attacking. That is not the same as saying it is impossible to use Stealth in combat.
Attacking is a defined term, so is combat, and the terms are quite different.
Attack = Standard Action or Full Attack Action.
If you use a Standard Action (attack) then you still can take a Move Action. You may take a Move Action before or after your attack. If your opponent is observing you then you may not use Stealth. But you can use Bluff to distract your opponent (Standard Action) and then use Stealth if you can get to cover/concealment. With HiPS, however, you may use Stealth while being observed and therefore need no Bluff.
If you use a Full Attack Action you may also use a 5' Step. Which, as it is considered a movement, is also eligible to be used for Stealth, as long as you are not observed or have HiPS.
Stealth Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.
Not an Action: Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.
Spring attack takes your single Move Action (taken before or after a Standard Action) and turns it into two movements (taken before and after an attack). Stealth is a non-action usually taken as part of a movement. Stealth itself literally takes no time; it is reasonable to say you may use it both on your first movement and your second after you attack.
That's how I'm reading it. If it is impossible to stealth while attacking, with Snipe being the only exception mentioned, then it should be impossible to stealth while attacking.
Again: Attacking is a defined term and not synonymous with combat. Attacking is only one small part of combat and there are many other actions besides attacks that take place. Attacking is a Standard Action or a Full Attack Action, there are also Standard Actions other than attacks, Move Actions, Free Actions, Swift Action, etc. So you may not use Stealth during your Standard Action (attack) or your Full Attack Action. It does not say, or in any way imply, that you may not use Stealth at all during combat. As long as you satisfy the requirements for Stealth (IE: cover/concealment and unobserved/HiPS) you are explicitly allowed to use Stealth (usually as part of a movement) and it makes no distinction about not being able to use it in combat, it just says not while attacking (Standard Action or Full Attack Action with the option of a 5' Step afterward), charging (Full Round Action, no 5' Step), or running (Full Round Action, no 5' Step).
Do you NEED to take the 5 foot step to stealth? It only says "normally as part of a move action." So theoretically an assassin hiding in someone's shadow can attack and re-stealth inside the shadow without moving?
I guess the only real thing our hapless opponent could do is ready an action for when he gets in melee range?
Do you NEED to take the 5 foot step to stealth? It only says "normally as part of a move action." So theoretically an assassin hiding in someone's shadow can attack and re-stealth inside the shadow without moving?
One quick thing about Assassin HiPS: You don't have to be in the shadow. You have to be within 10' of it. So as long as your 5' step doesn't take you outside that 10' range you are good.
As far as NEEDING to take the 5' step, I would have to say no. Stealth states that it is usually no action. Which is to say that it takes no action/time to perform, therefore you do not NEED to perform another action to use it. However, non-actions are usually taken as part of some other action. In the case of Stealth it is usually taken as part of a Move Action. But does that mean that a Rogue standing behind a low wall would have to move to in order to hide behind that wall, I can't imagine that to be the case. I think he could stand still right where he is and roll a Stealth check to hide behind the wall.
I guess the only real thing our hapless opponent could do is ready an action for when he gets in melee range?
Ready his Full Attack for when the Shadowdancer pops out of the shadows. Readied actions are the bane of HiPS users. So is a super high Perception.
EDIT MY LAST: You cannot Ready a Full Attack Action.
This thread has become very painful...except for the very last part.
Just remember...cake.
I love chocolate cake.
I guess the only real thing our hapless opponent could do is ready an action for when he gets in melee range?Ready his Full Attack for when the Shadowdancer pops out of the shadows. Readied actions are the bane of HiPS users. So is a super high Perception.
It's not common for say, a fighter, to have a super high Perception. Haven't tried it in PF yet with all the skills changed. But I want to make sure I have some sort of counter for this should it be used on me for any reason, or be able to guide the DM so it's not just an "I win" button.
For me, I'll probably ready a grapple action, or trip etc.
Thanks for everyone's help!
A lot of options, both for HiPS users and for those wishing to defeat HiPS, are dependent on whether or not you are allowing 3.5 stuff in your PF game. There are quite a few additional options in 3.5 that I am aware of.
Let me know what rules set you are looking for and I will try to point you in the right direction.
I think there is a general misunderstanding of the Stealth skill on this thread in general, and it is being interpreted much too narrowly. I think this arises from the fact that RPG systems based on the 3.5 SRD lack rules regarding facing, and thus everyone is assuming that anyone who is within line of sight is automatically within the intended victim's field of vision, which is absolutely wrong in my opinion. In my interpretation, the lack of facing within PFRPG does not assume that all creatures can see outside the backs of their heads. (in fact there are creatures within the Beastiary which specifically have All-Around Vision, which would be quite redundant if the developers were working on the assumption that all creatures can see in a 360 degree field of vision all the time) On the contrary, I contend that the lack of rules about facing are actually accounted for within the Stealth rules, and thus a successful Steath check means that you have successfully stayed outside of your victim's field of vision. Thus it is quite possible, in fact intended, that one can use Stealth while availing themselves of neither cover nor concealment.
The confusion here is because of an assumption. The rules state that you can not use the Steath skill while being observed. They also say that, once observed, achieving cover or concealment allows you to use your Steath skill. Thus, using Stealth only requires cover or concealment once you have already been observed. However, if you succeed on Stealth checks when leaving cover or concealment, you are, by definition, unobserved. You only become observed once you have either failed to make your Stealth check, or you have done something else, such as attacking, running or charging, which prohibit using the Stealth skill.
As an example, I will use the extreme case posited earlier in the post of the 10x10 well-lit, empty room. You are in such a room, and you expect that someone threatening will come through the door soon. On that expectation, you decide to flatten yourself against the wall beside the door, gaining cover from anyone coming through the door. Since you are the only one in the room, and the door is closed, you are, by definition, unobserved. An enemy of yours opens and enters through the door. You roll a Stealth check, and succeed, beating his opposed Perception check. You are still unobserved, most likely by moving silently behind your enemy as he enters. Each round thereafter you continue to roll stealth checks, moving slowly, carefully keeping yourself behind his head, thus staying out of his field of vision, and staying quite silent in the process, because you continue to succeed at your Stealth checks. You decide it is now time to dispatch your enemy, and deliver a nice shanking to his kidney, achieving a sneak attack, and hopefully dispatching your enemy in one well-placed blow.
So, you see, the requirement of using Stealth - being unobserved - is a function of successful use of the Stealth skill itself. The requirement of using cover or concealment does not come into play until you have become observed, which is the result of either failing a Stealth check, or taking an action which precludes the use of the Stealth skill (attacking, running and charging). Thus, it is quite possible to approach an enemy in the open, in a well-lit area, using the Stealth skill to remain unobserved, and achieve a sneak attack on him from melee range. Of course situation, movement speed and distance traveled in the open apply stacking penalties to your Stealth check, so unlimited movement in the open while using Stealth does become functionally impossible at some point.
Now, the OP was most concerned about the use of Hide in Plain Sight and Spring Attack to achieve a sneak attack every round. This not only is possible, but given a short enough distance from cover or concealment to your enemy, and a high enough Stealth skill is actually a likely scenario even without Hide in Plain Sight. Lets take a look at how this works for the humble Rogue without the Hide in Plain Sight ability.
Our Rogue friend is hiding behind total cover, and is thus unobserved by definition. He initiates a Spring attack at an enemy who is around the corner, 20 feet away. The description of the Stealth skill says that Stealth must be used as part of a movement, but it does not say it requires a move action. Since our Rogue friend is moving both before and after the attack as part of the spring attack, he must make a stealth roll on the way in, and another one on the way out. He has a movement speed of 30, thus to achieve the results he wants, he must move at full speed while using Stealth, so he takes a -5 penalty. He succeeds on his stealth roll, moves 15 feet, 5 feet of which he has no cover at all, strikes his opponent for a successful sneak attack, and begins moving back to cover. If his opponent had a ready action, he would not have been able to use it against our Rogue friend on the way in, because he was not observed, but may use it on our Rogue friend on his way out, because the action of attacking precludes the use of the Stealth skill, thus he is observed. He remains observed until he achieves cover, which happens after he moves 5 feet around the corner, and rolls a stealth check, once again taking a -5 penalty because he must move full speed. At the end of our Rogue friend's movement, he has total cover, so unless his enemy moves to put him in view, he is now unobserved, whether he succeeded at his Stealth check or not. He may continue doing this every round, as long as he continues to make his Stealth checks. Even if his enemy moves around the corner, in plain view of our Rogue friend, as long as he succeeds at his stealth check, he remains hidden, because he began unobserved. If our Rogue friend had decided not to make a stealth check on his way back, counting on total cover to hide him after his spring attack, if his enemy moves around the corner, he is instantly observed, because he neither has cover or concealment, nor has he remained unobserved using the Stealth skill.
For a Rogue without Spring Attack, a similar maneuver can be achieved, merely costing an additional round to pull off. He starts in cover. He moves to melee range using the Stealth skill, and attacks. His round is over. Assuming he survives his enemy's reprisal, he then moves away, either using Acrobatics to tumble the attack of opportunity, withdrawing, or risking the attack of opportunity. Once he gains cover (mind you, not total cover, but mere cover) he rolls his Stealth skill, and if he succeeds, evades his enemy's observation, setting him up for another sneak attack the next round.
An even more interesting maneuver can be achieved by a rogue who is both very stealthy, and has a good Bluff skill. In this case, our Rogue friend moves from cover using the Steath skill and succeeds, and decides not to attack, but instead remain hidden. On his next round, he begins the round unobserved, because he succeeded on his Stealth check the previous round, and did not take any actions which preclude the use of the Stealth skill (run, charge and attack.) He attacks his enemy, gets his sneak attack, and then rolls a Bluff check. He beats his enemy's sense motive, thus allowing him to roll a stealth check, which he does as part of a 5-foot step, and succeeds, despite the -10 penalty he incurs because of this method. He is still in melee range, primed to sneak attack again next round, and is hidden from observation. This is possible because of the description of the Stealth skill as regards to using Bluff. It says "If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check) you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast." Notice, it says "an unobserved place of some kind" and not "cover or concealment of some kind". This is because, anywhere, other than your original starting position, is by definition, and unobserved place, if you have succeeded your Stealth check. Once again, this is true because the lack of facing rules in the PFRPG rules are handled by the mechanic of the Stealth skill.
With all of the above in consideration, the question of using Hide in Plain Sight and Spring attack to achieve a sneak attack every round is fairly moot. Not only can it be done, but even better tricks can be done. As long as the Shadowdancer stays within 10 feet of shadow, he can actually full attack each round, and assuming his Stealth check is successful, and he succeeds on his first attack of the full attack action, he can achieve a sneak attack with the first attack, and normal hits with the subsequent attacks, and then 5 foot step and stealth, to repeat the maneuver on every subsequent round.
Rrriiissseeee my minion, RRRRRiiiisssseeee.
Do you NEED to take the 5 foot step to stealth? It only says "normally as part of a move action." So theoretically an assassin hiding in someone's shadow can attack and re-stealth inside the shadow without moving?
I guess the only real thing our hapless opponent could do is ready an action for when he gets in melee range?
Hi, I decided to resurrect this thread since I have an upcoming HIPS fight coming up. I browsed the thread but I did not see this specific scenario covered so...here goes.
I agree with Shadowlord's interpretation of the RAW. A Shadowdancer using spring attack can stealth up to the target, sneak attack, and stealth away.
An opponent can also ready an action to attack the Shadowdancer if/when he sees him. For a non-magic using class, this is probably the best chance you have of taking a Shadowdancer out.
The question that I have is when using a readied action it would appear that, at most, you could only attack the Shadowdancer every other round. For instance, lets assume a Shadowdancer is attacking a fighter in a grove at night.
The light is dim so the Shadowdancer can HiPS.
Initiative is rolled and the fighter wins.
On his turn, the fighter readies an action to attack the shadowdancer.
On the Shadowdancer's turn he sneaks up to the fighter
When the fighter sees him he attacks with his readied action, interrupting the shadowdancer's attack. (or the shadowdancer attacks first, and the fighter attacks, I dont know which)
The shadowdancer then backstabs him getting his additional d6 damage.
Now, my question is who has the initiative at this point in the fight? The Fighter interrupted the shadowdancer in the middle of his attack so does this mean that the shadowdancer now has initiative? or does the fighter now have initiative since he technically attacked first. If the shadowdancer has initiative it means that he essentially gets a free attack since the fighter cannot ready an action since he does not have initiative.
Do you NEED to take the 5 foot step to stealth? It only says "normally as part of a move action." So theoretically an assassin hiding in someone's shadow can attack and re-stealth inside the shadow without moving?
Firstly let's get this out of the way: Stealth is not normally taken as part of a move action it is normally taken as part of a non-specific movement. Since you are moving in a 5' step I would say it would count for using Stealth in this way. Also, a person's shadow doesn't constitute "an area of dim light" or "an area of shadow" as the Assassin entry is worded. The designers have stated it was a copy/paste error and the Assassin entry should read exactly the same as the Shadowdancer entry. Furthermore, a guy standing in bright or normal light and casting a shadow doesn't constitute an "area of dim light" which is described as a starry night setting with 20% concealment. That's pretty dark, unlike standing in someone's shadow.
I guess the only real thing our hapless opponent could do is ready an action for when he gets in melee range?
There are other options: A glitterdust scroll would effectively end the Shadowdancer's ability to hide. A -40 penalty to Stealth is devastating to anyone. For someone without spells or UMD, readied actions are probably the best way to go. Holding a light source in your off hand or having a necklace of continual light would be a good idea too if you know you are going up against a Shadowdancer.
The question that I have is when using a readied action it would appear that, at most, you could only attack the Shadowdancer every other round.
As far as I can tell, the Fighter should be able to counter the SD's attack every round with a readied action.
Now, my question is who has the initiative at this point in the fight? The Fighter interrupted the shadowdancer in the middle of his attack so does this mean that the shadowdancer now has initiative? or does the fighter now have initiative since he technically attacked first. If the shadowdancer has initiative it means that he essentially gets a free attack since the fighter cannot ready an action since he does not have initiative.
The Fighter will go "before" the character who initiated his readied action:
Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character's activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
Initiative Consequences of Readying: Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don't get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again). If you take your readied action in the next round, before your regular turn comes up, your initiative count rises to that new point in the order of battle, and you do not get your regular action that round.
In your scenario the round consists of two initiative counts:
1) Fighter2) Shadowdancer
If the Fighter readies an action during his turn then waits, his turn ends and his initiative is up in the air. When the Shadowdancer takes his turn he sneaks up and attacks. As he comes out of Stealth the Fighter swings preemptively and hits the Shadowdancer first, but the Shadowdancers attack is still made. Now this all happened in the same round so it circumvents the Initiative Consequences of Readying and in the next round the Fighter will take his turn immediately before the Shadowdancer, allowing him to rinse and repeat.
Now if the Shadowdancer won the original Initiative roll then it would play out slightly different. The Shadowdancer would go first, while the Fighter is flat-footed. Then the Fighter would take his turn and ready an action; that is the end of the round. Next round the Shadowdancer appears and attacks. The Fighter takes his readied action and his initiative shifts to be just before the Shadowdancer's. He loses his normal action this round, and since the Shadowdancer has already taken his turn it shifts to the third round and the Fighter will go first. From this point on it will progress like example one.
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Now the only hiccup is: Since the Fighter's attack is an interrupt and resolves before the Shadowdancer's Sneak Attack, is the attack still a Sneak Attack? I am inclined to say it is. I say that because I believe there is an error in the logic of how the "Fighter” has worded his readied action. You can't ready an action for something you can't detect happening. The whole point of the Sneak Attack is that you don't become aware of it until it's too late to react to the attack itself, which means you aren't going to see a successful Sneak Attack coming. If you can’t detect it until it has already happened, you can’t very well “interrupt” the action. The thing you SHOULD be readying your action for, is "when the Shadowdancer breaks Stealth" which will happen as his blade sinks into the fighter's flesh. So the Fighter will still suffer the Sneak Attack, but he will be able to pull off a counter attack (IE: Readied Action) the second he sees the Shadowdancer, and more importantly, before the Shadowdancer slips back into Stealth.
FYI: Even taking this into account, the initiative count in the examples above would not be changed. The only difference is that the readied action happens between the Shadowdancer's attack and his new Stealth check, rather than before his attack when he is still undetected. Don't let readied actions cause a time/perception paradox.
Thanks for the breakdown. I will trust your judgement.
I am assuming that the shadowdancer can sneak attack even if the fighter attacks first, however, since the fighter does indeed attack first does this mean that he will be flat-footed for the shadowdancer's attack?
Thanks for the breakdown. I will trust your judgement.
I am assuming that the shadowdancer can sneak attack even if the fighter attacks first, however, since the fighter does indeed attack first does this mean that he will be flat-footed for the shadowdancer's attack?
I have edited my above post to answer this. I posted then immediately saw that question being the next step and went to work editing my post. But you got your question out there before I was done editing.
I have edited my above post to answer this. I posted then immediately saw that question being the next step and went to work editing my post. But you got your question out there before I was done editing.Thanks for the breakdown. I will trust your judgement.
I am assuming that the shadowdancer can sneak attack even if the fighter attacks first, however, since the fighter does indeed attack first does this mean that he will be flat-footed for the shadowdancer's attack?
Gotcha. This solution seems to make the most sense and will make for some great combat. In the encounter that I have planned the party is going to go up against another party, slightly lower levels with a shadowdancer. I see the shadowdancer delaying and waiting to spring on PCs as soon as they complete actions.
Thanks for the help!
Thanks for the help!
No problem.
Here's my analysis of lighting and HiPS, in case it helps.
Shadow dancer hides within 10ft of shadow in plainsite, if the observer has darkvison hips still works and the shadow dance can still use stealth correct?
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50% of the boards say yes, 50% of the boards say no. There was a heated argument about it some time ago, but I forget what the thread was called. It's probably one of the ones in this thread...
If you have like, an entire day to kill and an extra head to explode, reading all of those threads will accomplish both those tasks.
These things need GM rulings, I have come to understand.
Then open your eyes and look around the room. i bet you're able to see your friend quite clearly as he has nothing to hide behind.Obviously. Its a bad example you are using. Also, please stop trying to use real life examples to explain how something is or is not possible is a make believe fantasy game where the IMPOSSIBLE is quite capable of being done.
Fantasy scientist A, "It's a scientific fact that matter can neither be created nor destroyed."
Fantasy Scientist B, "unless you're a third level mage."
Fantasy scientist A, "Well obviously there will be exceptions."
Fun fact: The real word and Pathfinder world are not completely identical. Physics beware.
I just find it very disappointing that a cool class I have lots of cool memories of can no longer be played as it once wasFunny cause I think shadowdancers work just fine in pathfinder. I don't see the problem you are having with it.
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-James
I think she was referring to the Ninja class, actually.
I have a couple of questions on this myself, actually. Just to clarify something that confused me slightly, about the Spring/Sneak Attack question. Since you have to de-Stealth, as it were, to make the attack, does that prevent you from using Sneak Attack, since the character is no longer under Stealth?
I'm also not seeing anything in the Sneak Attack feature or in the Stealth skill that specifically states that you can Sneak Attack if you are under Stealth. Sneak Attack seems fairly clear on the subject.
The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.
It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
If you combine that with the description of the Stealth skill, it would seem like it wouldn't be possible to Sneak Attack at all while under Stealth, barring the Sniping exception in combination with the Sneak Attack distance rule. Could somebody point me to where it states that successfully entering Stealth allows any kind of melee attack whatsoever? I just went through the entire PF Core rulebook (Search function FTW) and found exactly 0 references to that being the case. I also found no references to a character being flat-footed to something unobserved, such as a character under Stealth.
So, to re-state my questions:
(Not a general attack, but specifically to make a Sneak Attack)
(Excluding the Sniping exception)
(The only way I can see a Stealth/Sneak Attack combo working outside of the Sniping exception)
Honestly, I think that being able to Spring Attack/Sneak Attack would be cool. I have a Rogue character I was thinking about taking down the Spring Attack tree, so I'd love to be able to do it. I'm just not quite seeing the support for the maneuver. I agree with most of the claims that were made during this, but a lot of them seem based on a particular warrant - that being under Stealth permits a Sneak Attack, and I'm not seeing any backing for that warrant.
Shadow dancer hides within 10ft of shadow in plainsite, if the observer has darkvison hips still works and the shadow dance can still use stealth correct?
There are several levels on which you can show that Darkvision doesn’t detect someone hiding with the HiPS ability. Now, whether or not the people you are debating with will accept that is a totally different story.
1) DV allows you to see “normally” as if you were in normal light. Well a Shadowdancer can use HiPS against someone while standing in normal light, as long as he is within 10’ of dim light. Since the SD can hide from someone with normal vision while standing in normal light, he must also be able to hide from someone in dim light with DV.
2) DV only takes away the benefit of concealment from dim light and darkness. It doesn’t actually take away the shadows. The SD doesn’t rely on concealment, he doesn’t need it, and all he needs is the presence of shadow, which he still has.
3) HiPS, for the SD and Assassin, is a Supernatural Ability, which means by definition that it is “Magical in nature.” The description of DV states that it doesn’t allow you to see anything magical that you wouldn’t otherwise be able to see.
And yes, the more detailed arguments are somewhere in the links provided by Jeremiziah.
1) Does leaving Stealth to make your attack allow you to make a Sneak Attack at all? (Not a general attack, but specifically to make a Sneak Attack)
Yes. You don't actually leave Stealth to make the attack, more accurately it would be described as breaking Stealth as the attack happens. You still have the element of surprise. It's just like someone attacking under the Invisibility spell. Invisibility breaks as the attack happens, but the Invisible attacker still gets all the benefits of being invisible for that first attack. All iterative attacks after the first are regular attacks though, as the element of surprise has gone away.
This was in fact clarified by 3.5 FAQ and never changed or overturned by PF, so should still stand.
Q:If a rogue has successfully hidden behind some bushes and fires an arrow at a target less than 30 feet away from her, does she deal sneak attack damage?
A:Yes. The rules don’t come right out and say this, but a character who has successfully hidden from an opponent is considered invisible for the purpose of rendering that foe flatfooted, and thus deals sneak attack damage.
2) Where does it state that a Sneak Attack can be made while still under Stealth? (Excluding the Sniping exception)
It doesn't. You always break Stealth when you attack, except when sniping. However, the first attack is the same as attacking from invisibility in regard to qualifying for Sneak Attack. Your opponent loses their Dex to you for that first attack.
3) Where does it state that not observing a threat makes the character flat-footed to that threat? (The only way I can see a Stealth/Sneak Attack combo working outside of the Sniping exception)
Flat-footed is actually a very specific condition that only ever occurs in surprise rounds and in the first round of combat before you have had your turn (some feats also cause this condition). Most people confuse "flat-footed" with being denied Dex, but that isn't the case. Flat-footed is a specific condition that causes you to lose Dex but it isn't the only condition that causes you to lose Dex. If you are an unseen/invisible opponent and you attack, your target loses their Dex, which means you get Sneak Attack.
Here's my analysis of lighting and HiPS, in case it helps.
This is a great synopsis on HiPS. I will be keeping that page bookmarked.
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Funny cause I think shadowdancers work just fine in pathfinder. I don't see the problem you are having with it.
But then again I don't follow some of your complaints (like hellcat stealth being usable everywhere, etc).
Of course lighting conditions matter, and tracking them is just good judging.
-James
Before one had to be within ten feet of a shadow, that can be from a table, a fellow PC, the crook of a wall, etc. Since there was no in-game modifier that necessarily had to be appyied the whole table, it was easy to make a quick call and move on (don't want the whole table to get bogged down b/c of one character). But the dim light requirement is not so simple since dim light has relevance to the whole table and there is an in-game effect since dim light grants concealment. Of course big areas of dim light are important to note since a 20% miss chance is a big deal - but figuring out and noting every full square of dim light, for perhaps one PC, can be too much when you are trying to keep the pace of the adventure moving.
As for Hellcat Stealth: I think it is a great feat - awesome in fact, I hope it doesn't go away. But it maybe more powerful than a Shadow Dancer's HiPS at this time. My complaint isn't against Hellcat Stealth its against the dim light requirement of HiPS for Shadow Dancers given all that one has to go through in order to be a Shadow Dancer. And don't get me wrong, I think the class is still great but since it's not like there is an Advanced HiPS at fifth level or something like that which improves the first level ability... I think the class has been severely handicapped.
HiPS is a relatively expensive ability that can be undone by a sun rod or zero level spell or a torch and Hellcat Stealth can't be undone unless you can beat the stealth roll (again it is a great feat) - meaning that if you get a sun rod within ten feet of the shadow dancer, then the shadow dancer can no longer use HiPS and becomes unhiddenOR if you can get just get rid of the dim light then the HiPS stops to work. This isn't so hard when you consider that a torch, sun rod and light spell brightly light an area of twenty or thirty feet radius.
Example: Nero the Shadow Dancer is hiding in wait from the fighter Thron the Half-Blind. Nero is hiding within ten feet of the dim light produced by the shadow on the ceiling of the corner of the room. Thron the Half-Blind was attacked the round before and was able to see the spring attacking Nero retreat towards that part of the room. He does not have a chance to beat Nero's stealth roll, but even he can identify dim lighting due to it's significant effect in-game (he can tell where he can and can't see well due to shadows and darkness). Rather than spot Nero, Thron throws his torch/sun rod towards the corner of the room as a standard action. He rolls better than an AC 5 and the torch lands on the floor brightly illuminating the corner and eliminating the dim light area on the ceiling Nero was relying on. Nero is no longer hidden since now the normal rules for stealth have to apply and Nero is not hidden behind cover or in another form of concealment and there is no other dim light area within ten feat. Under the old rules that only required a shadow for HiPS, Nero might be fine since he is still within ten feet of a shadow (which could be Thron's shadow produced by the new area of light and it's source) it could be argued that Nero would still be hidden. But Thron's own shadow does not produce concealment since he is not that big... Nero is out of luck. Thron uses his move action to approach Nero, preventing the requisite ten feet of movement for a spring attack without provoking an AoO. If Nero had Hellcat Stealth, Nero might still be hidden or at least would arguably still require an opposed roll from Thron the Half-Blind since Hellcat Stealth requires nothing to be hidden obviously, but since Nero spent most of his feats on becoming a Shadow Dancer, he does not have Hellcat Stealth (even though it is only two extra feats); alternatively if Nero was a second level Ninja he could just spend a swift action on his tern to turn invisible as a supernatural ability, but Nero is rogue dungeon delver who likes to find traps. As Thron grins menacingly Nero resolves that he will have to think of plan B.
Sorry I got carried away by my own example.
Be well
Thanks, Shadowlord. So under a strict interpretation, it isn't RAW, it's a RAI according to the FAQ. Not arguing with the interpretation, just clarifying. If I ever try to use the tricks in the future, I want to know what people might argue. The FAQ question also doesn't seem to address HiPS specifically, but I can see how they connect. Admittedly haven't had time to read the HiPS link.
Amenhotep is right about one thing, though. The Shadowdancer's version of HiPS is very easy to defeat.
Thanks, Shadowlord. So under a strict interpretation, it isn't RAW, it's a RAI according to the FAQ.
If you really want to label it like that then I guess it would be a FAQ ruling on RAI. Depends on how RAI is defined in your group. It's not explicitly stated in the rulebook, but it is a ruling in FAQ. I wouldn’t go into RAW vs. RAI because your group might have a different interpretation of RAI and assume what you are calling a FAQ ruling is just some guy's interpretation. I would just say that according to FAQ rulings attacking from Stealth allows you to gain Sneak Attack.
Whether you call it RAW, RAI, FAQ or whatever else, if you are under Stealth you are an Unseen Attacker, therefore your opponent loses Dex to AC against you and you get Sneak Attack.
Not arguing with the interpretation, just clarifying. If I ever try to use the tricks in the future, I want to know what people might argue. The FAQ question also doesn't seem to address HiPS specifically, but I can see how they connect. Admittedly haven't had time to read the HiPS link.
The all HiPS entries specifically state the ability uses Stealth. The FAQ entry addresses a common question about attacking from Stealth. Therefore the FAQ also addresses HiPS.
Amenhotep is right about one thing, though. The Shadowdancer's version of HiPS is very easy to defeat.
Yes it is, I'm not sure why so many people complain about it being overpowered.
Perhaps i overread it (possible), but one thing seemed not to have been talked about: Hellcat Stealth.
I on my turn have some questions arising there after reading most of the above: It says "You may make Stealth checks in normal or bright light even when observed, but at a -10 penalty."
How does this go with Darkvision?
I conclude that this is a even more advanced version of HiPS only with a -10 penalty. Hellcats get penalties in dim light and not magical darkness, but thats not mentioned here.
Perhaps i overread it (possible), but one thing seemed not to have been talked about: Hellcat Stealth.
I on my turn have some questions arising there after reading most of the above: It says "You may make Stealth checks in normal or bright light even when observed, but at a -10 penalty."
How does this go with Darkvision?
I conclude that this is a even more advanced version of HiPS only with a -10 penalty. Hellcats get penalties in dim light and not magical darkness, but thats not mentioned here.
Hellcat Stealth allows you to hide while being observed when you are in normal or bright light. Darkvision only comes into play when you are looking into dim light and darkness. The two operate wholly in opposite ends of the lighting conditions chart; they will never interact or affect each other.
I would not call Hellcat Stealth a more advanced HiPS. HCS only operates in light. HiPS can operate anywhere as long as you are within 10’ of dim light, which is easy enough to create if its not already there, and it doesn’t cost you a -10 penalty to your check. I would call it a nice complement/addition to HiPS. You would have HiPS in and around dim light, and when you are forced into bright or normal light you could be using Hellcat Stealth.
However, keep in mind it’s not Core or APG and it’s quite powerful, so some GMs might not allow it.
So if someone has darkvision, like a bunch of drows or devils for example, there is no way to hide in dim light and darkness? Exception would only be HiPS if the Gm allows it as magical? Else you have to bluff for diversions or find some cover?
So if someone has darkvision, like a bunch of drows or devils for example, there is no way to hide in dim light and darkness? Exception would only be HiPS if the Gm allows it as magical? Else you have to bluff for diversions or find some cover?
Normally if you are in dim light or darkness you have concealment against a creature looking for you, and thus have a miss chance and the ability to use Stealth if you are unobserved. All Darkvision does is eliminate the concealment granted by dim light against that creature. However, if you have other sources of concealment/cover you can still hide from the creature with Darkvision. Basically if you are in dim light or darkness and trying to hide from a creature with Darkvision you treat it like trying to hide from a creature with normal vision while in normal light conditions. Also keep in mind Darkvision has a limited radius, usually 60 feet.
As far as HiPS, it IS a (SU) ability and therefore IS magical in nature. That really should end the discussion as to whether or not DV would defeat it. If that doesn’t work then there is also the fact that DV doesn’t actually eliminate the dim light in the area, it just allows that particular creature to negate the concealment granted by the dim light. However, the Shadowdancer doesn’t need concealment to hide; he simply needs the presence of dim light within 10’ which he still has, so he can still hide. If those two didn’t work then break it down to an example. DV allows a creature to see through dim light and darkness as if they were normal light; the Shadowdancer could easily hide from a creature with normal vision while standing in normal light, as long as he is within 10’ of dim light. So he should also be able to hide from the creature with DV as long as he is within 10’ of dim light, which he would be; again DV doesn’t take away dim light, just the concealment granted by it. Darkvision is a great ability, but it isn’t supernatural or magical, it’s an improvement to normal vision, it is not meant to be out there defeating supernatural or magical abilities.
Thanks for sharing your expertise.
I have some remaining questions though.
Basically if you are in dim light or darkness and trying to hide from a creature with Darkvision you treat it like trying to hide from a creature with normal vision while in normal light conditions.
In that case, with Hellcat Stealth i could hide possibly.
So does it apply here? Or does Hellcat stealth only apply when in normal or bright light? After reading about hellcats i would say in dim light perhaps not but in darkness yes.
Thanks for sharing your expertise.
I have some remaining questions though.
Basically if you are in dim light or darkness and trying to hide from a creature with Darkvision you treat it like trying to hide from a creature with normal vision while in normal light conditions.In that case, with Hellcat Stealth i could hide possibly.
So does it apply here? Or does Hellcat stealth only apply when in normal or bright light? After reading about hellcats i would say in dim light perhaps not but in darkness yes.
I addressed this in THIS POST. Hellcat Stealth needs the pressence of either bright or normal light to function. Darkvision allows a creature to see in darkness as well as if they were in normal light, but it doesn't actually create conditions of normal light. You will not be able to use Hellcat Stealth against anyone (Darkvision or not) unless you are actually standing in bright or normal light.
Well, thanks for explanations.
Doesnt make much sense to me though. This way you could never hide from a bunch of Drow unless youre a shadowdancer or lvl 17 ranger?
I think there really should be a faq on stealth soon.
And if i have some supernatural or (EX) ability to hide in daulight even while observed, why shouldnt it function in other circumstances?
I can read whats written, but the interpretation doesnt make much sense to me.
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Well, thanks for explanations.
Doesnt make much sense to me though. This way you could never hide from a bunch of Drow unless youre a shadowdancer or lvl 17 ranger?
I think there really should be a faq on stealth soon.
And if i have some supernatural or (EX) ability to hide in daulight even while observed, why shouldnt it function in other circumstances?
I can read whats written, but the interpretation doesnt make much sense to me.
It is possible to hide from Drow, you just need one of the other circumstances that allows you to take Stealth (i.e. Cover of Concealment). You could also Stealth with a successful Bluff check, allowing you to find cover or concealment.
As for Hellcat Stealth, part of the way it works is that you are hiding in the light itself. You can't hide in the physical light if there is not enough physical light present to hide in. For a normal creature, the nearest equivalent would be, "How thick does the mist have to be in daylight for me to hide in it?" Hellcat Stealth only functions when there is enough light present for the creature to hide in. Likewise, regular Stealth in daylight would only function when the fog was thick enough to provide concealment. Clear things up a little bit?
Note: Having not read Cheliax: Empire of Devils or a description of Hellcats, my interpretation of Hellcat Stealth might not fit the fluff.
Again, thanks for responds.
Might buy another wand or two...
For hellcats:
In bright light, a hellcat has natural invisibility. In normal light, a hellcat has partial concealment (20% miss chance). In dim light, it has no concealment. In darkness, a hellcat’s flickering glow limits it to partial concealment, unless the darkness is magical in nature.
So yes it actually kind of fits.