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The empower ability only increases the variable effect. so a CWL is 1d8+5 max. Empowered it part is refrencing the rolled healing wich does not change witht he caster lvl the bonus does. so if you have a healing domain lvl 6 ability it would become, (1d8*1.5)+5. I.E you roll a 4 you now have 11hp healed (4*1.5)=6+5=11.
hope i am helpful
Pathfinder uses the exact same text as the 3.5 players handbook, but the PHB has an example to help clarify stating
an empowered magic missile deals 1-1/2 times its normal damage (roll 1d4+1 and multiple the result by 1-1/2 for each missile.)
The problem is that the magic missile is a bad example. As every MM does 2 to 5 damage as that is the variable number. Unfortunately its not the same with values for say Ray of Enfeeblement where the bonus changes with levels.
I can no longer find the post, but I know I read where Jason said that when using an Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement only the 1d6 is increased not the plus also. So the example above where only the 1d8 is increased is correct for PFRPG.
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Thus you would multiple the entire amount healed by 1.5.
There is no rule saying that is the correct interpretation.
Until there is a FAQ that addresses this exact situation, there are three perfectly valid RAW interpretations that the DM can choose:
1) Your way, CLW = (1d8+Max 5) * 1.5 = 9 to 19 healed
2) My belief on intent at CL3 for example: (1d8*1.5+min(5;CL*1.5)) = 5 to 16 healed
3) Strict based on Magic Missile not using CL and at CL3 : (1d8*1.5+min(5;CL)) = 4 to 15 healed
Edit: Evidently my belief is wrong. Jason goes with #3, but since that is perfectly valid everything is still fine. I'll try to remember to use #3 forward.
My vote is for whatever is easiest. Which for me means rolling the entire healing result and then adding 50% to that result. Anything else is just too much work and not worth the effort.
+1
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Then in your contention, it's sloppy wording on the healing domain text? Since the text says "increases the amount of healing done by 50%"
No, not at all. The healing is increased by 50% regardless of the way you interpret it. Each way has a different interpretation:
1) The healing is all of the effect, but Empower (etc) exempts you from inbound spell limits. This is a change from 3.5 which inherently limited you to spell limits even on Empower/Extend/etc.
2) The healing is all of the effect, but the bonus is still limited to the maximum.
3) The healing is only the 1d8 part, the +CL is not part of the healing but rather a bonus on the casting.
In no way does this mean sloppy wording, because what the Healing Domain or Empower Spell effects say have no bearing on other limitations that may be present and it would be wrong to try to bloat the text to the point that every corner case was covered by every effect. In other words, there should be no notice made in Empower that other limitations may limit the effectiveness of Empower Spell.
Then in your contention, it's sloppy wording on the healing domain text? Since the text says "increases the amount of healing done by 50%"No, not at all. The healing is increased by 50% regardless of the way you interpret it.
Uh, no, no it isn't. There's really only one way to interpret "the amount of damage healed". The amount of damage healed by CLW is 1d8+CL. It's not 1d8, unless you're CL 0. It's the entire amount. There's really no other logical way to interpret it.
Pathfinder uses the exact same text as the 3.5 players handbook, but the PHB has an example to help clarify stating
an empowered magic missile deals 1-1/2 times its normal damage (roll 1d4+1 and multiple the result by 1-1/2 for each missile.)
The problem is that the magic missile is a bad example. As every MM does 2 to 5 damage as that is the variable number. Unfortunately its not the same with values for say Ray of Enfeeblement where the bonus changes with levels.
I can no longer find the post, but I know I read where Jason said that when using an Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement only the 1d6 is increased not the plus also. So the example above where only the 1d8 is increased is correct for PFRPG.
Can anyone find said post and link it? That makes empower pretty sad on any spell that adds a variable amount to a die roll.
Probably a wasted feat then.
Having had clerics in my games using Empower, clerics using Healing domain, and clerics using the PrC-ability that gave you Empowered+Maximized Healing spells, I have found absolutely nothing overpowered about letting Empower work on the entire amount healed. It's still just healing, and it still typically is only done post-combat.
Most of the time, the extra amount mattered little; in a few cases it meant the party decided to continue on through one more encounter instead of resting, which is a good thing in my book :)
P.S. Treantmonk, I *can't wait* until you make a PF Wizard guide! Your guides are great.
Thanks! I'm currently working on the spell section...somewhere in a moment of idiocy I decided to evaluate every wizard spell in the book.
Been picking away at it, and I just finished level 5 today....
When that's done, then feats (looks like empower needs a warning), skills, equipment, Prestige classes.
Sounds like lots...but I'm actually more than 1/2 done I think.
Irrelevant, since the amount of damage healed is limited by the bonus CL based damage in the Spell unless you ignore the limits in the spell.
No, it isn't.
Let's say I have a 6th level Healing domain cleric casting cure light wounds. He rolls a 7 and adds 5 (the maximum amount of CL he's allowed to add) and totals them to get 12 damage healed. Now we Empower the spell, yielding 18 damage healed.
Show me where I exceeded the caster level limit. By the time we get to the Empower step, caster level is irrelevant. We aren't dealing with bonuses any more, we're dealing with total healing. There's no hard limit on total healing for cure light wounds, only a soft one, which Empower lets us break past.
Can't wait for that FAQ !
The limit is for the spell itself.
No, it isn't. There is no hard limit to how much health cure light wounds can heal; if there were enough metamagics, class abilities, etc etc, CLW could heal 100 points of damage. There is a hard limit on how much your caster level can contribute to the base healing of cure light wounds.
Fortunately, Empower Spell doesn't give two shakes about the calculations that lead up to the final healing/damage number for any given spell. At least, not as written, nor as (apparently, given multiple examples) designed.
Ack, this thing again.
Jason at one point (in a very very long thread concerning ray of enfeeblement) said that empower will affect the total of the roll and bonus.
He then edited that post to say the opposite.
He also said it would need some additional looking at. Nothing more came of it.
Frankly, other than the possible need for a PFS ruling, this should be a DM ruling - the sides on this argument are just far too stratified. Some feel Empowering the total is far too strong. Others feel that without it the benefit is far too weak.
The primary reason the debate is so hard to resolve is because there are three different examples to portray, and each has very different results. This goes even further when comparing Empower to Maximize, which are really quite different effects, though similar. Those three examples are:
A gets very little benefit without multiplying the whole total. Also Maximize does very very little.
B makes little sense not to multiply the whole amount, particularly given the explicit example of magic missile. Maximize has not insignificant value for these.
C is rather strong with full empower. Maximize has reasonably good effect, but less than Empower (generally).
I strongly feel everyone should run it as they see fit. For me, that's empowering the total, but that won't work for everyone.
Obligatory clarification:
Frankly, other than the possible need for a PFS ruling, this should be a DM ruling - the sides on this argument are just far too stratified.Actually, I was mostly asking for my PFS society character who is indeed a cleric with the healing domain. I asked the question here rather than in the PFS forums, because it was stated in the PFS forums that pure pathfinder game mechanic questions that don't have to do with the PFS campaign guide/etc., should be addressed in the rules forum.
For you I'd say just go with what the ability says (+50% to amount healed) and not worry about what that means for the Empower Spell feat. You have it easy :)
You might get a DM that disagrees (though I doubt it), but that will happen regardless of what the precise topic is, or who is right. DM's word is the rule.
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Irrelevant, since the amount of damage healed is limited by the bonus CL based damage in the Spell unless you ignore the limits in the spell.No, it isn't.
Look, I am far more likely to rull up the damage and add 50% for speed of play. But I am working in this thread on a RAW point of view.
In the Rules, using RAW, you can't prove which of the three ways is the way the rules tell you to operate.
When you can't prove one way, you are left with RAI to interpret which way you want to use or you are left with "I like this interpretation or that one."
You are debating as if you believe the rules can only be interpreted one way, and while I agree you can interpret them your way I strongly object to the theory your way is the only valid accurate way.
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The official answer was that Empower in Pathfinder (and the Healing domain) only affect the part of a spell that is rolled and nothing else. For a Cure Light Wounds, that is the 1d8 portion only, not the +1/CL.I know when I searched the boards, I couldn't find that listed....can you provide a source for that?
No, I tried to find it (above) but it might be to old, or I am just misremembering the title. Essentually, it was right when the final came out, DM Blake asked this very question (does Healing Domain act exactly like Empower spell), and eventually James (possibly Jason?) came on towards the end and said no, only the rolled portion is Empowered. I have looked through the entirety of the PF, PF RPG, and rules Questions Archives, and did not see it though, sorry.
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While somewhat true, PF is based off of 3.5, and the mechanics and design philosophy are specifically to continue 3.5. Paizo also has not published their own errata or FAQ (and I'm not calling them out, their busy).
That only leaves one real option, because they also haven't given much in the way of official answers for a lot of things. In the case of the Empower Spell, there is a specific answer in the FAQ, and neither the philosophy nor mechanics have changed to make that FAQ obsolete. So why would we not use it?
Here is a good example. In another thread, people are debating if a PC can "attack" another PC. Specifically about rules that say things like "enemy", "foe", or "oponent". One PC tried to run away (fear), while another PC wanted to grapple them to keep them from leaving the party. There is an answer in the FAQ, and it has nothing to do with any changes from 3.5 to PF.
Also remember, pretty much everything 3.5 is (in theory anyway ha ha) valid in PF.
I blame organized play for all this sort of thing.
My vote is for whatever is easiest. Which for me means rolling the entire healing result and then adding 50% to that result. Anything else is just too much work and not worth the effort.+1
+2
After repeated pleas during playtesting for the wording of the feat to be clarified, it still wasn't done.
Meh.
After repeated pleas during playtesting for the wording of the feat to be clarified, it still wasn't done.
Meh.
On the bright side, they didn't make is less clear (like they did with some things...). :-)
+2My vote is for whatever is easiest. Which for me means rolling the entire healing result and then adding 50% to that result. Anything else is just too much work and not worth the effort.+1
+3
Spellcasters turns take long enough.