We've got a large party that's primarily melee focused. Whenever we're dungeon-delving we tend to get chewed up in constricted spaces. What can we do tactically to reposition in tight situations? How should we be approaching going through doors in dungeons?
The party is composed of the following 6th level characters:
Human Barbarian (always uses axe)
Human Samurai (can switch between katana and a two-handed weapon, usually pole arms)
Halfling Rogue (melee specialist)
Halfling Witch (really really enjoys blasting)
Half-elf Druid (rarely casts in combat, prefers to melee) + bear companion (size M)
Half-Orc Cleric (domains Strength and Glory, two-handed with greatsword but low AC and tends not to last long in combat, usually turning to channeling as fight wears on)
Dwarven Inquisitor (again melee build)
The Dwarven Inquisitor often can't make it due to work-concerns so hopefully you guys have don't have too many inquisitor-only strategies. None of the PCs are likely to spend more than a feat or two becoming proficient in ranged attacks unless the case is exceedingly compelling.
Usually the Inquisitor uses a spell (or power? I'm not sure which) to peer through doors but we make so much racket that whatever is on the other side almost always knows that something is coming and has time to prepare. Then we all try to charge through the door with only one or two of us getting through, getting our behinds handed to us in the process. The rest of the PCs sit around getting bored at this point, plotting to move up in the marching order so that they can get beat up next time instead of just sitting around.
When I first read your title I thought you were looking for help in how to break through doorways that might be locked or barred. Reading your post it sounds more like you're looking for tactical suggestions to get your melee-heavy group engaged with the enemy through a tiny, well-defended opening.
Is your rogue using acrobatics to move through potentially threatened squares to avoid opportunity attacks?
Witches aren't generally regarded as blasters, what spells is he/she using for blasting?
There are some great blaster spells that can clear out the area on the other side of a door if you can get the door open. In today's terminology that's done with "flash-bang" pyrotechnics. You can do the same.
If you can get the door unlocked then you can attempt the following:
First, buff up, especially any AC buffs you can get. Buffing dex can help too.
Druid, Cleric and witch begin casting summon spells, while the rogue and potentially the samurai prepare to tumble into the room to avoid opportunity attacks.
Dwarf yanks open door just before witch, cleric and druid summon spells go off. Summoned creatures appear in room beyond door. Rogue and samurai tumble into room.
Carnage ensues. In the carnage the rest of the party enters.
After combat, the witch, cleric and druid use their pearls of power to recharge their summon spells.
Rinse, repeat.
Have the guys with reach weapons stand behind the guys without them.
Open the door and throw in some alchemist's fire and oil, plus a stinkbomb or something. See what comes out.
Have the guys with reach weapons stand behind the guys without them.
Open the door and throw in some alchemist's fire and oil, plus a stinkbomb or something. See what comes out.
These sorts of tactics rely heavily on the GM reacting in a certain way. If your GM reacts that way, then fine. In my experience this sort of approach is almost universally metagamed by the GM so that the bad guys don't rush out of the room just because you stunk it up or set a little fire.
If yours does, then great. But don't count on it.
The iconic military style breach comes to mind. Do something to stun/blind/slow or otherwise inhibit the denizens of the particular room in order to give the party enough time to fully enter the room. The first round is going to be the first guy in line throwing more times than not a spell through the doorway and then moving as far in as possible so as to leave room for the rest of the party.
Have the druid start preparing stone shape to make more room.
I really brainfarted my response. Does any player have access to stinking cloud? The smoke out tactic is a tried and true good one.
I forgot stinking cloud was on the witch's list. This isn't a bad thing, but keep in mind that your party is going to be affected by the cloud as well, so if the creatures just stand pat and wait for the cloud to disperse, you'll just have to figure something else out. This is an example of what I mean about being wary of GM metagaming. GMs know how stinking cloud works. It would not surprise me at all to try this and have the GM simply wait for you to enter your own cloud, or for it to dissipate. You should still get some advantage over any creature that was stuck in the cloud, but it's not a very big cloud...
EDIT: Plus, if you expect to encounter more than a few doors, using up a third level spell each time is not going to last for many doors.
Have the druid wildshape into an earth elemental, earthglide under the room and hollow out the area under the floor, then break the floor open so everything falls. If his CMB is good enough, Grapple and drag his opponents underground instead.
While the mobs are running around screaming "Landshark! Landshark!" you should be able to infiltrate pointy ends first.
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Break in through the wall. They never expect that.
Deliver a pie/pizza/candy-gram. Surely your halfing rogue can talk his way into a doorway, right?
Lassos. Dwarf yanks door open, Samurai and Druid throw lassos, Barbarian and Cleric yank on the ropes to drag the targets through the doorway. Proceed to hit with axes, while potentially prone & entangled.
Smoke/Stink/Fire. Even if the monsters don't care about stink, they probably burn or need to breath.
Poison gas. Potentially ethically murky, but exceedingly effective.
Illusions? Not a very arcane-heavy party, so not such a great solution, but its a possibility.
Tower shields? Even if not proficient, you can advance behind its cover without fear of Aoo's or ranged attacks.
Throw some smoke in there, wand of obscuring mist (several of the casters can use it). Sure it starts around the caster and only goes out 20 feet, but thats 20 feet of safety for one round. Another option; smokesticks. I love alchemical items.
- Activate smokestick
- Rage kick door open
- Throw smokestick
- Rush into position
Again the focus shouldn't be "Move in far enough to hit the enemy", it should be "Move in far enough so that all of my teammates can get through in the least amount of time required".
Smoke or fog is probably more likely to be effective in giving you cover when you rush into the room than it will be to have the GM send his carefully constructed encounter willy nilly into your waiting arms.
Just sayin'
All these are good ideas. With a melee heavy party like this, this should be totally the other way around. Use these things to force the bad guys to come at you, and then chew them up. Your defensive line/shield wall holds the line, then reachers and blasters fire over them. Find ways to dump the entire damage output of the team into one or two squares.
@Admantine - Good ideas. The rogue has been tumbling into combat, the Samurai is in heavy armor and can't really do that. The witch has been going with fireball/lightening bolt/flaming sphere. Not an optimal strategy but he reaaaally loves burninating things.
@Tonyz - The samurai has been following the Barbarian with the pole arm with good success. Maybe the cleric could be convinced as well. Re: the fire/stinkbomb: Our GM is pretty good about playing enemies realistically. This might work well against unintelligent animals but will likely fail against something with a higher int.
We've been looking at the rules for holding or delaying actions so that we can all rush into the room at once but haven't had much success at it. Also, we're not entirely clear as a group as to how much freedom you have to move through an ally's square. Any thoughts on methods for synchronizing our initiative to all act on the same initiative count (like our GM does with the BBEGs)?
update: While I was typing this there were at least three or four other good posts. The luring shield wall is another good idea that we're still trying to get organized. Tower shields would be good as well - I hadn't thought to use them even though none of us are proficient. Smokesticks are a good idea too, I like the idea of using an alchemical item. Thanks again everyone.
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It's kinda penalty really for having melee oriented party, I mean 6/7 melee is just overkill. Your Gm is chuckling at this point and is maybe trying to give you a hint that not everything is possible in that kind of party.
Other then that, all those above advices are good, just try not to blast room asap, maybe some lowly peasant is hiding in the room.
Another suggestion for dungeon delving with a big, melee heavy party if you guys are getting chewed up in tight spaces is to consider breaking the party up into cascading fire teams groups of one or two that move ahead (but ONLY to the next doorway/intersection) while the rest of the party covers them. Then they STOP while the next fire team moves up past them to the next cover point while the first fire team covers them. As soon as anybody meets any resistance, the whole party STOPS and deals with the resistance, making small tactical retreats to better fighting positions if necessary. Practice team discipline, and work on nobody deviating from the plan.
Fair point.
Peeps need to invest in some crossbows.
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The Dwarven Inquisitor often can't make it due to work-concerns so hopefully you guys have don't have too many inquisitor-only strategies.
OK, so here's an Inquisitor strategy...sorry.
A big problem when besieging a defended room, is when the first person through the door draws the the fire of the whole group of opponents. Then it's "I want to get in! Go further! Make room!", from the rear of the party, vs "I want to get out! Step back! Make room!" from the point guy.
The Teamwork Feat Swap Places can be useful for getting the beaten-up guy back out of danger, and replacing him with someone uninjured.
Due to the Inquisitor's Solo Tactics ability, both he and the target always count as having the feat, and there is no limit to the uses/day.
It's also something that can be done in an emergency, right now, regardless of the Inquisitor's current build, and without the need for levelling, since he has the ability to swap out one of his Teamwork feats several times/day.
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The problem with summons in this case is that the door breach often involves a choke point - not just the door, but often the entryway beyond is tight. Summoned creatures still take up floor space, and by filling up those squares with summoned creatures, the ability of the other PCs to move into the room is further restricted. Summons can still be useful, but they are sometimes counterproductive.
At 6th level you can summon a creature and place them up to 40 feet away. By doing that you can place them inside the room and open a second front. Now you might get flanks or just be able to attack enemies who were previously unreachable.
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Your'e in a melee heavy, loud armor clinking party, that, aside from your witch, everyone else focuses on melee. You've got a cleric whose 2 primary strategies are run into the room and attack or channel to heal. the answer is simple. Silenced daggers. Cleric casts silence on a dagger of somebody in the front of the party. That person opens/bashes into the room, getting as close to the enemy casters as possible. You're witch, who is your primary blaster caster sits in the back so that she can open up with blasting spells as soon as the silence recends from her, as it will follow the bearer of the dagger. Better would be to throw the dagger at an enemy caster. Bonus points if you hit as it will take a move action to remove the silenced dagger and another standard action to either throw the dagger away or move away from the dagger. either way, you remove the enemy prep time cause they can't hear you comming and you might neutralize a spell caster or group of spell casters depending on conditions in the remove and you take away their ability to call for back up.
Silence is a 2nd level cleric spell, so you're Orc cleric will certainly have access to it.
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Have the druid wildshape into an earth elemental, earthglide under the room and hollow out the area under the floor, then break the floor open so everything falls. If his CMB is good enough, Grapple and drag his opponents underground instead.
While the mobs are running around screaming "Landshark! Landshark!" you should be able to infiltrate pointy ends first.
It's a lovely visual; unfortunately, earth glide doesn't work that way.
You don't leave a tunnel, or any signs of passage.
@Zephyre Al'dran - Silenced daggers?! Brilliant! We'll need to figure out some hand signals to organize the process of going through and we might switch it up slightly (silenced net anyone?) but that's definitely a keeper.
Pretty sure a lvl 6 druid can't wildshape into an earth elemental. (Oops, yep they can WS into a small one...)
I still have to chuckle at the impressive number of people posting "chunk some alchemist's fire in there and slaughter them when they come running out in a panic."
LOL, you guys are lucky to play with such tactically challenged GMs.
Let me ask you this... if an alchemist fire was lobbed through the door into your room would your reaction be to run screaming into the defended and guarded room to be slaughtered?
... I thought not.
Fog Cloud and Bull Rush might be a useful combo. Restricting visibility plays to the strength of melee over ranged attacks. Bull rush can push back opponents to make room for your allies.
We've been looking at the rules for holding or delaying actions so that we can all rush into the room at once but haven't had much success at it. Any thoughts on methods for synchronizing our initiative to all act on the same initiative count (like our GM does with the BBEGs)?
'Ready' actions to move in after one of the other party members opens the door once you have your initiative rolls done.
Example: Get close to the door in question with the silence spell, so the enemies inside do not know your there and roll initiative. Take a round and have the person with the highest initiative roll say they will Ready an action to attack any enemies that may appear in the coming combat round. Then everyone after him, in initiative order, ready an action to go through the door when he opens it. At the start of the next round have the person with the highest initiative now actually open the door. All of your prepared readied actions will then fire off in initiative order and you will move in one by one on the same initiative that the door is opened. If you have been successful in not alerting the rooms occupants then your set for combat.
Another way to do it is have your front line combatants Ready an action to move in as soon as player "HighRoll" opens the door. Then have your second liners with the pole arms ready actions to move in after your front liners so they can take up support positions with their reach weapons. Remember, reach weapons are specifically designed to attack past friendlies.
This also has the added benefit of moving all of your intiatives to that of your player who rolled the highest roll so your group can all go on the highest initiative phase, just one after another.
If your absolutely sure you have suprise, take the first round to 'reorient' your entire group so they all get 20's for their intiative rolls, then do the above. That will make sure that your ambush attacks all have the maximum possible initiative rolls for your entire party.
It would be wise to let your GM know ahead of time that your characters are going to be practicing small unit tactics and breaching maneuvers together to RP justify this practice, in case he is a stickler.
Also, we're not entirely clear as a group as to how much freedom you have to move through an ally's square.
IIRC allies do not block friendly movement at all. You just cannot END your movement in the same square as any other creature. So you can freely move through a friends square as long as you do not stop/end your turn in that square.
IDK that anyone specified panic, and MOST encounter rooms are not fortified positions that it's clearly batpoop insane to leave in order to pursue armed intruders in your home. And a decent number of potential foes aren't going to do a great deal of calculus anyway.
Throw a flash-bang at the guard shack @ the entrance to a military base and run away. I bet you're pursued.
Give it a try, Chobe, and report back to us. I bet what you will find out is that the guards in the guard shack will not pursue you, because that's exactly what they've been trained NOT to do. Their job is to guard an entrance, not pursue obvious distractions. What they will do is call the incident in on their radio and send out an appropriate response.
In game terms that means the inhabitants of the room you tossed the alchemist's fire in will say "how stupid do they think we are?"
Unless they really ARE stupid, or the GM just plays them that way.
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IDK that anyone specified panic, and MOST encounter rooms are not fortified positions that it's clearly batpoop insane to leave in order to pursue armed intruders in your home. And a decent number of potential foes aren't going to do a great deal of calculus anyway.
Throw a flash-bang at the guard shack @ the entrance to a military base and run away. I bet you're pursued.
Give it a try, Chobe, and report back to us. I bet what you will find out is that the guards in the guard shack will not pursue you, because that's exactly what they've been trained NOT to do. Their job is to guard an entrance, not pursue obvious distractions. What they will do is call the incident in on their radio and send out an appropriate response.
In game terms that means the inhabitants of the room you tossed the alchemist's fire in will say "how stupid do they think we are?"
Unless they really ARE stupid, or the GM just plays them that way.
Very good point.
Flash-bang goes off at the front door. Guards radio in the incident. Central command then follows whatever security protocols are in place.
A lot of times, that means reinforcements rush into the threatened zone.
The party then sneaks in through the back door / sewer / HALO drops at the non-reinforced point.
Decoy / misdirection is your friend!
Pretty sure a lvl 6 druid can't wildshape into an earth elemental. (Oops, yep they can WS into a small one...)
I still have to chuckle at the impressive number of people posting "chunk some alchemist's fire in there and slaughter them when they come running out in a panic."
LOL, you guys are lucky to play with such tactically challenged GMs.
Let me ask you this... if an alchemist fire was lobbed through the door into your room would your reaction be to run screaming into the defended and guarded room to be slaughtered?
... I thought not.
That is only because it is a game in real life this would be a valid strategy. Their have been many instances in history where enemies have held a point against attack by fire and died not because of the fire but the smoke. A DM that wishes to play up a more realistic reaction are not being tactically challenged just playing up a realistic fear. As a GM I would likely roll to see if an enemy that was trapped and being smoked out would feel enough fear to bolt or hold their position rather then arbitrarily deciding. I would not force such a roll on a PC in such a situation but would have them take the penalties of staying in a smoke filled room but I have always felt that PCs are supposed to be made of sterner stuff.
Depending on the level an attack with alchemist fire or smoke sticks can still be valid talking strictly in game mechanics at low levels. It will quickly lose potency due to increased HPs and better saving throws. In general the trick is making staying in the room a no win situation. Such as tossing in blast spells to encourage an exit or hampering those inside to prevent an alpha strike on the first person to enter. Both tactics usually involve a spell or special ability.
@Narrater, if you are going to play the "it's realistic" card, we've got a whole lot more pressing things to deal with in your average dungeon than whether smoke would impel creatures to flee a room.
I am dealing with the game rules that exist. Smoke from alchemist fire, normal fire or even smokesticks simply does not impede or threaten creatures enough in the game for them to react the way that you are describing. If you want to have them pretend that it does, then what other "real world" impacts are you going to start imposing on the game?
The question was about a game specific tactical situation. I am dealing with it according to the actual game rules. Ther is no reason, using those game rules, for dungeon creatures to react the way you and others think "they should act" except that you think they should. But I doubt seriously if your PCs were in the same situation that you would have them react "realistically" so why should the NPCs?
It's a lovely visual; unfortunately, earth glide doesn't work that way.
You don't leave a tunnel, or any signs of passage.
Our group has always played that "anything an earth elemental is carrying earthglides with him", is that not the case? Earthglide itself doesn't specify anything about things you carry, just that "you burrow, swimming through the earth as if it was water."
It's made for some particularly horrific moments when one of our guy who likes gimmick-kills summons a trio of small earth elementals and had them earthglide over to enemy casters, grappled them (usually all 3 grappling at the same time to increase the chances of success and drag distance) to break concentration, and pulled them down into the "water-like earth" with no trace other than anything they dropped.
I've also heard tales of creative adventurers casting earthquake to collapse dungeons, and sending in earth elementals to carry the loot/heads of any enemies/bodies of anybody they were supposed to rescue back out, which is one of the reasons I assumed bringing things with you as you earth glide was fair game.
Edit:
As an afterthought, can you still choose to fail grapple checks as the victim? I haven't grappled since 3.5, but if your DM lets you grapple and drag things under the earth, you could just group-hug and grapple around into the back of the room, and all let go.
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The problem with summons in this case is that the door breach often involves a choke point - not just the door, but often the entryway beyond is tight. Summoned creatures still take up floor space, and by filling up those squares with summoned creatures, the ability of the other PCs to move into the room is further restricted. Summons can still be useful, but they are sometimes counterproductive.At 6th level you can summon a creature and place them up to 40 feet away. By doing that you can place them inside the room and open a second front. Now you might get flanks or just be able to attack enemies who were previously unreachable.
This works if the door is already open, but you still have a line of sight issue. You can summon the creature 40 into the room so long as you have line of sight to a valid square it can inhabit. Note, it doesn't restrict you from Summoning a large sized creature into a multiple squares outside your line of sight, as long as you can see 1 of the squares your good. However, it does you no good at all if the door is closed.
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The problem with summons in this case is that the door breach often involves a choke point - not just the door, but often the entryway beyond is tight. Summoned creatures still take up floor space, and by filling up those squares with summoned creatures, the ability of the other PCs to move into the room is further restricted. Summons can still be useful, but they are sometimes counterproductive.At 6th level you can summon a creature and place them up to 40 feet away. By doing that you can place them inside the room and open a second front. Now you might get flanks or just be able to attack enemies who were previously unreachable.This works if the door is already open, but you still have a line of sight issue. You can summon the creature 40 into the room so long as you have line of sight to a valid square it can inhabit. Note, it doesn't restrict you from Summoning a large sized creature into a multiple squares outside your line of sight, as long as you can see 1 of the squares your good. However, it does you no good at all if the door is closed.
We are not talking about a closed door situation. We are talking about a door where enemies block the path into the room. Line of sight is not an issue as we are talking about line of effect which is much more forgiving.
Regarding the throw in fire and kill em when they run out responses assume that there is no safe retreat. A lot of dungeons have rooms that have two or more exits in most rooms. Dead end rooms are not the rule. So what you get is the enemy retreats, alerts the next room, and that room is even stronger.
@Narrater, if you are going to play the "it's realistic" card, we've got a whole lot more pressing things to deal with in your average dungeon than whether smoke would impel creatures to flee a room.
I am dealing with the game rules that exist. Smoke from alchemist fire, normal fire or even smokesticks simply does not impede or threaten creatures enough in the game for them to react the way that you are describing. If you want to have them pretend that it does, then what other "real world" impacts are you going to start imposing on the game?
The question was about a game specific tactical situation. I am dealing with it according to the actual game rules. Ther is no reason, using those game rules, for dungeon creatures to react the way you and others think "they should act" except that you think they should. But I doubt seriously if your PCs were in the same situation that you would have them react "realistically" so why should the NPCs?
Actually there are game rules that work under the environment section pertaining to smoke inhalation from fires. You may ignore them while others wish to use them each to their own way of playing.
Actually there are game rules that work under the environment section pertaining to smoke inhalation from fires. You may ignore them while others wish to use them each to their own way of playing however your tone is uncalled for.
My "tone"? Seriously? If my post came across with a bad "tone" I sincerely apologize. I certainly had no intention or even inclination to be dismissive, condescending or in any other way offensive. I regret that it came across that way. Typing these things on my tiny phone keyboard while between meetings at work is probably not very conducive towards pleasant conversation.
How much smoke does a flask of alchemist fire produce? How many squares does it fill? How long does it persist? Etc.
The smoke from a smokestick is specifically referenced as being equivalent to fog cloud in its effects. No mention is made of any other effect.
Smoke effects are reference as "heavy smoke" and are pretty tame, essentially a d6 of non-lethal damage if they fail two consecutive DC 15 fort saves. Those are fairly easy saves to make, but "heavy smoke" is described as being like being in the middle of a forest fire. To fill a typical dungeon room with "heavy smoke" would be quite an undertaking, and even if you could, once you open the door, you are dealing with it too.and if that were to be an issue, as a GM my NPCs would simply hold their breaths, while they put the fire out.
Hmm, did I specify that the SAME individuals would IMMEDIATELY pursue you? That strikes me as an uncharitable interpretation, especially since I already made a point about reinforcements. They're going to react to intruders. That action will be much more likely to involve a sortie in many scenarios. You might still end up needing to assault the hard point later. But the overall scenario will be different.Drawing enemy forces into a different (and presumably more favorable for the drawer/ less favorable for the drawee) tactical situation has been happening since the 2nd armed conflict between bands of cavemen, I presume. It's certainly been happening for all of recorded history and it's unreasonable to assume that learning to record history made us dumber.
Mid-level and higher PC's are the ultimate in asymmetric warfare in many cases.
As I said, if this tactic works for you, then that's great. In my experience playing this game for 30 years, it is a rare GM who would play it that way. Either the GM is going to be tactically competent enough to know that approach is playing into the PC's hands, or, more commonly in my experience, the GM already has a tactical battleplan drawn up and a little bit of smoke isn't going to make them abandon their hard work.
But good luck with expecting the GM to play it that way. Maybe you will get lucky.
I changed my post because I did not wish to be inflammatory but the cat seems to already be out of the bag and I may have taken the previous post to personally and reacted to it in a knee jerk fashion. So lets simply chalk it up to a misunderstanding.
It really is relative if the people in the room become concerned enough to fight the fire then they are not covering the entrance witch has at least in part done what you wanted.
Context makes all the difference in the situations as well. In a wooden structure a single alchemist flask in the right place can be a serious threat. With the whole building potentially at risk from a single use. Heck even the threat of setting the place on fire may be enough to make them think about coming out. While in a underground dungeon you may not have plentiful fuel but oxygen lose is a increased danger. I understand that all of the previous statement are not strictly about the rules but I have played in many games where the DM has taken such things into account while adjudicating the game. At the same time I have seen many games completely ignore environmental concerns unless they are currently serving as a specific focus in the game so it is one of those YMMV situations.
I would like to add one thing that your previous post left out about the smoke inhalation rules. It is a constantly increasing bar it only starts at 15 it gains a +1 per previous check witch means it can effect even the hardiest of enemies eventually unless they have some way to ignore the smoke at higher levels this is certainly a possibility but at the range we are looking at it would not be as likely.
I will grant you that the description under smoke sticks doesn't indicate anything other then the stated effect. I was thinking more of the potential hazard of fire itself witch may not have come through when I wrote my previous post(s).