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Ok, So, the leadership feat says your cohort can be any race or class, but two levels lower than you max. So, I think the following are valid cohorts, just want to make sure my logic is right.
Ranger Rick saves the life of a minotaur in the woods, Rick hits seventh level during the fight, and his player takes the Leadership feat. Rick's Leadership score is high enough he can attract a cohort of up to level 5. The minotaur he saved is unusual and happens to share his alignment (CN). Rick decides to take on the Minotaur as his cohort. Per Bestiary p313, the Minotaur would be an effective character level 4, so he'd follow along, gaining exp until he hit 5th, then stay two steps behind Rick.
Druid Demona has an eagle companion. She's 13th level, and takes the Leadership feat because she's recently befriended a half-celestial unicorn and wants to have the unicorn as a cohort. A half-celestial unicorn is CR 4. Her alignment is NG, it's is CG, so she takes a penalty on her leadership score for that (and for having an animal companion). But still, she can have up to a level 8 cohort, even with all her penalties. So, a CR 4 certainly should be acceptable. The cohort unicorn would then gain xp and 'advance' as a monster when able until it was up to CR 8, then stay five steps behind Demona.
Both of these seem right?
Ok, So, the leadership feat says your cohort can be any race or class, but two levels lower than you max. So, I think the following are valid cohorts, just want to make sure my logic is right.
Ranger Rick saves the life of a minotaur in the woods, Rick hits seventh level during the fight, and his player takes the Leadership feat. Rick's Leadership score is high enough he can attract a cohort of up to level 5. The minotaur he saved is unusual and happens to share his alignment (CN). Rick decides to take on the Minotaur as his cohort. Per Bestiary p313, the Minotaur would be an effective character level 4, so he'd follow along, gaining exp until he hit 5th, then stay two steps behind Rick.
Keep in mind that appendix 4 on PB p. 313 refers to monsters as PCs.
Since a minotaur is the equivalent of a hound archon in CR and racial HD I would set its effective cohort level to 7 (see PB p. 316; like the hound archon) That means it is appropiate for a 7th level character (or the equivalent of a 5th lvl character).
It should therefore not be allowed to gain a level until the player character advances to level 8. A minotaur cohort should advance by gaining levels in a class such as warrior or barbarian.
Druid Demona has an eagle companion. She's 13th level, and takes the Leadership feat because she's recently befriended a half-celestial unicorn and wants to have the unicorn as a cohort. A half-celestial unicorn is CR 4. Her alignment is NG, it's is CG, so she takes a penalty on her leadership score for that (and for having an animal companion). But still, she can have up to a level 8 cohort, even with all her penalties. So, a CR 4 certainly should be acceptable. The cohort unicorn would then gain xp and 'advance' as a monster when able until it was up to CR 8, then stay five steps behind Demona.
Again I think you should look at p. 316 of the Pathfinder Beatiary, it is a good gage of monster power and the unicorn is set at effective cohort level of 8. For a celestial cohort I would increse it to 9 since it will rapidly move up in HD. The reason unicorns are rate so high is because of its many magical properties/abilities.
With that said I still think it makes a good cohort for Demona.While demona is of a diferent alignment and has an animal companion she suffers a -3 penalty to her leadership score, not to the maximum level of her cohort. If in spite of this -3 penalty still is able to raise her leadership score to 16 or higher she woul still be able to have a level 11 cohort.
As it is Demona needs a leadership score of 13 to attract a celestial unicorn as her cohort. This means her charisma (and other abilities) should at the very least negate the -3 penalty from having an animal companion and being a diferent alignment.
Unicorns should be advanced by HD rather than by level.
Keep in mind that appendix 4 on PB p. 313 refers to monsters as PCs.Since a minotaur is the equivalent of a hound archon in CR and racial HD I would set its effective cohort level to 7 (see PB p. 316; like the hound archon) That means it is appropiate for a 7th level character (or the equivalent of a 5th lvl character).
It should therefore not be allowed to gain a level until the player character advances to level 8. A minotaur cohort should advance by gaining levels in a class such as warrior or barbarian.
I am, that's why I'm trying to figure this out. It doesn't mesh with the rules on page 313. If you were using a regular human fighter as a cohort, and you were level 7. You could have at most a 5th level fighter (who would be CR 4). Which is why I picked the minotaur. So, we seem to be agreeing on the minotaur being appropriate, the question for me seems to be that the Minotaur is considered CR 4. The mismatch for him isn't quite as bad as for the unicorn, which is why I used it first.
Again I think you should look at p. 316 of the Pathfinder Beatiary, it is a good gage of monster power and the unicorn is set at effective cohort level of 8. For a celestial cohort I would increse it to 9 since it will rapidly move up in HD. The reason unicorns are rate so high is because of its many magical properties/abilities.
With that said I still think it makes a good cohort for Demona.
While demona is of a diferent alignment and has an animal companion she suffers a -3 penalty to her leadership score, not to the maximum level of her cohort. If in spite of this -3 penalty still is able to raise her leadership score to 16 or higher she woul still be able to have a level 11 cohort.
As it is Demona needs a leadership score of 13 to attract a celestial unicorn as her cohort. This means her charisma (and other abilities) should at the very least negate the -3 penalty from having an animal companion and being a diferent alignment.
Unicorns should be advanced by HD rather than by level.
Again, I am looking, and that's why I posted, it just boggles me that a unicorn is considered a 6th level cohort (appropriate for a level 8 character). I'm again going back to the human fighter. Demona would qualify for say a level 6 human fighter. A level 6 human fighter is a CR 5 monster if you use him in a scenario. Yet, it's supposed to be appropriate for her to have a CR 3 monster at the same level as a cohort? Either the unicorn is badly off on it's CR, or the chart on 316 is off.
I intentionally used the half-celestial unicorn because it gains a +1 CR, making it a 7th level cohort (appropriate for level 9 per page 316). That way I could compare it to a level 8 human fighter cohort. I intentionally lowered Demona's leadership score way down for this example, just listed some reasons why it would be low. I understand how leadship score works for determining cohort minimum level.
I suspect it is p316 that is way off. In no way is the unicorn as effective or useful as a level 5 fighter. A big part of it being it dies too easy. The level 5 fighter may not be able to carry you, but he can carry a lot of your junk for you and he doesn't die nearly as fast.
It's probably just my OCD, I just don't like it when two sets of rules contradict each other as to how equivalent something is. :(
I suspect it is p316 that is way off. In no way is the unicorn as effective or useful as a level 5 fighter. A big part of it being it dies too easy. The level 5 fighter may not be able to carry you, but he can carry a lot of your junk for you and he doesn't die nearly as fast.
It's probably just my OCD, I just don't like it when two sets of rules contradict each other as to how equivalent something is. :(
I think the idea here is that monsters are not exactly equivalent to character classes as cohorts. Sure a unicorn goes down easier then a level 5 fighter. But the fighter certainly doesnt have a constant magic circle against evil effect. CR is representative of the threat a creature or character provides to a party, not the potential value they can add to a party. Certainly unicorns greater teleport within a forest could have a potential value way over its CR, but it does not really add to the threat it poses to a party as a monster.
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I suspect it is p316 that is way off. In no way is the unicorn as effective or useful as a level 5 fighter. A big part of it being it dies too easy. The level 5 fighter may not be able to carry you, but he can carry a lot of your junk for you and he doesn't die nearly as fast.
The table's not off at all; unicorns might not be as good at fighting as a 5th level fighter, but that's not what you should be using a unicorn for if you get one of them as your cohort. If you wanted a fighter, you should have taken a fighter.
The unicorn is effectively an 8th level cohort because it has a lot of other powers; it can use spells that require 7th level spellcasters (or in the case of greater teleport, require 13th level casters). It also radiates a permanent magic circle against evil... this is VERY powerful, and more or less makes you immune to things like domination and possession as long as you remain in the area.
There's more that goes into the decisions for what effective levels a monstrous cohort counts for than fighting.
I suspect it is p316 that is way off. In no way is the unicorn as effective or useful as a level 5 fighter. A big part of it being it dies too easy. The level 5 fighter may not be able to carry you, but he can carry a lot of your junk for you and he doesn't die nearly as fast.The table's not off at all; unicorns might not be as good at fighting as a 5th level fighter, but that's not what you should be using a unicorn for if you get one of them as your cohort. If you wanted a fighter, you should have taken a fighter.
The unicorn is effectively an 8th level cohort because it has a lot of other powers; it can use spells that require 7th level spellcasters (or in the case of greater teleport, require 13th level casters). It also radiates a permanent magic circle against evil... this is VERY powerful, and more or less makes you immune to things like domination and possession as long as you remain in the area.
There's more that goes into the decisions for what effective levels a monstrous cohort counts for than fighting.
Ok,
I can agree with that. It just jars that it doesn't work with the 'as pc' rules is all. Basically, under those rules a unicorn would be a third level PC, is all.I'm perfectly fine with the unicorn being higher, just think I'd boost it's CR as well is all.
Again, it's more just my OCD, I prefer things that are symmetrical. :)
I am, that's why I'm trying to figure this out. It doesn't mesh with the rules on page 313. If you were using a regular human fighter as a cohort, and you were level 7. You could have at most a 5th level fighter (who would be CR 4). Which is why I picked the minotaur. So, we seem to be agreeing on the minotaur being appropriate, the question for me seems to be that the Minotaur is considered CR 4. The mismatch for him isn't quite as bad as for the unicorn, which is why I used it first.
Keep in mind that appendix 4 on PB p. 313 refers to monsters as PCs.Since a minotaur is the equivalent of a hound archon in CR and racial HD I would set its effective cohort level to 7 (see PB p. 316; like the hound archon) That means it is appropiate for a 7th level character (or the equivalent of a 5th lvl character).
It should therefore not be allowed to gain a level until the player character advances to level 8. A minotaur cohort should advance by gaining levels in a class such as warrior or barbarian.
I know that in 3.5 the HD+LA adjustment formula luckily worked out accuratly for the minotaur when I let a player be one. I would give it an ECL of 7(if you want to be nice) or 8 meaning it would be availible as a cohort when the player is level 9 or 10.
Edit: I was thinking of the minotaur as a PC. Sorry about that. I guess a 4 or 5 more appropriate for the minotaur as a cohort.
You want to go one brain explosion better?
The Erinyes. (I am playing a Chelaxian Conjurer in a game, and can't use Planer Binding to bargain for a "persistent" bodyguard because of the duration limit, so turned toward leadership cohort rules.)
Base CR of 8, so "as a PC," it should be considered an 8th level character at base.
But as a cohort, it is considered 16th level according to the table on pg. 316.
And the Pixie. CR 4, But a Cohort level of 8!
What is with the Cohort hate?
(By the way, it seems almost as if the ECL comparison was intended to be 2x CR, unless Cohorts are just discriminated against, for some reason.)
You want to go one brain explosion better?
The Erinyes. (I am playing a Chelaxian Conjurer in a game, and can't use Planer Binding to bargain for a "persistent" bodyguard because of the duration limit, so turned toward leadership cohort rules.)
Base CR of 8, so "as a PC," it should be considered an 8th level character at base.
But as a cohort, it is considered 16th level according to the table on pg. 316.
And the Pixie. CR 4, But a Cohort level of 8!
What is with the Cohort hate?
(By the way, it seems almost as if the ECL comparison was intended to be 2x CR, unless Cohorts are just discriminated against, for some reason.)
Erinyes? But...
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They are given a much lower CR because, in a battle against 4 PCs, that is their power level. They still have certain abilities that would be INCREDIBLY useful to a party of much higher level, which is why they are rated higher for cohorts. They may not be the greatest in combat at that point, but that's not the reason for taking them.
They are given a much lower CR because, in a battle against 4 PCs, that is their power level. They still have certain abilities that would be INCREDIBLY useful to a party of much higher level, which is why they are rated higher for cohorts. They may not be the greatest in combat at that point, but that's not the reason for taking them.
That is right on the spot.
Or put in an a bit different way:CR is a measure of how challenging a creature is in battle. In most instances this is only one encounter resulting in the defeat of either the creature or the party.
Effective cohort level is an estimate based upon CR, HD and special powers that make the creature particularly useful while adventuring. By adventuring I mean combat, reconosance, protection, transportation, diplomacy, income, crafting, etc.
A pixie is far more versatile than a lvl 7 fighter and to a 9th level party probably far more useful.
Again,
Not arguing about the fact that some monsters as cohorts are more or less effective than a class level cohort.
Pointing out that if they are that wonderful for a cohort, then they are that wonderful for a PC by the same logic. If having a cohort who can do something specific is useful, then being a PC that can do that is useful as well.
But, I don't think anyone would claim that all those cohorts are worth playing at the level set for the cohort equivalent (In other words, no one would play a unicorn if they had to play it as a level 6 character). That was my point.
In my OCD world a power/utility level should be consistent between a cohort and a PC. A given cohort should be just as useful at his level as he would be if he were a player character.
A standard cohort is made just like a player character, has a class level, etc.
And again, not agitating for a monstrous races book with this, just pointing out an inconsistency in the RAW. If we don't point these out now, then they don't get addressed eventually, 'kay?
And again, not agitating for a monstrous races book with this, just pointing out an inconsistency in the RAW. If we don't point these out now, then they don't get addressed eventually, 'kay?
I think the inconcistency will never be done away with.
This as often done by a gut feeling, if you ask me, and the most thorough example of this being put into rules (the Savage Species book) also failed - It was confusing and inconsistent.Monster classes cannot be as streamlined as PC races. Simply because they break the mold. I do not like the monsters as PCs rules from PF, but I guess they are as close as you get, without an actual compendium.
RAW work best for homanoid and monstrous humanoid monsters.
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But, I don't think anyone would claim that all those cohorts are worth playing at the level set for the cohort equivalent (In other words, no one would play a unicorn if they had to play it as a level 6 character). That was my point.
It depends.
If I could be sure that the whole campaign were to take place in a large forest, and I could advance by class levels?I'd give it a go.
But I admit, I'm strange.
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Since a minotaur is the equivalent of a hound archon in CR and racial HD I would set its effective cohort level to 7 (see PB p. 316; like the hound archon)
That Hound Archon has race abilities worth millions of gp. The Minotaur has race abilities barely worth wealth by level of his CR.
In short, using the Monster Cohort for a Hound Archon as the value for "any similar CR" is breaking both balance rules and intent.
What is with the Cohort hate?
It isn't a "Cohort Hate" as much as this:
Gee, we MUST make some of these monsters available as Cohorts. But we didn't have time/space to flesh out the Monster as PC rules the way they need to be. So let's put out X number of Cohort conversions knowing the Monster as PC rules lowballs these races so DM's don't get people trying to use Monster as PC rules for Cohort level.
I will probably do the same thing I do for ECL. I will give it the adjusted level that I think it deserves. I normally do pretty well with it.
It isn't a "Cohort Hate" [snip]
So, you don't find it unreasonable to have to be a minimum of 18th level before you can have a Erinyes as a cohort?
What is so game breakingly awesome about an Erinyes that means you have to wait until 2 levels (at most) before an arcane caster can start throwing Pit Fiends at problems?
Or that a pixie character* has to have 8 class levels, minimum, before being able to have an unclassed pixie as a cohort?
* Pending GM approval.
I won't argue that the "as a PC" guidelines probably low ball the power level of any given monster... But the "as a Cohort" guidelines really high ball the level.
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What is so game breakingly awesome
Or that a pixie character* has to have 8 class levels
Erinyes has True Seeing and Greater Teleport at will plus many other things. Whether or not it should be +7 levels or not you could argue. But True Seeing is worth a massive amount all by itself. Hound Archon is only 7 which values them at +3 and the only real strong value they have is the Greater Teleport. So if you take 8+3 for Greater Teleport, then add on the better powers as +1, you are left with +4 for True Seeing and frankly that is probably the proper value.
As for the Pixie, I'd imagine the arrows and invis are the reason it is +4 levels.
The real problem is the p313 "Monster as PC" rules totally break down and become a problem for any race that has abilities other than just hit dice. Doesn't that make sense?
Since a minotaur is the equivalent of a hound archon in CR and racial HD I would set its effective cohort level to 7 (see PB p. 316; like the hound archon)That Hound Archon has race abilities worth millions of gp. The Minotaur has race abilities barely worth wealth by level of his CR.
In short, using the Monster Cohort for a Hound Archon as the value for "any similar CR" is breaking both balance rules and intent.
Agreed. But making an objective comparison between the minotaur and hound archon I still think they are "relatively" even matches. Especially when including the ECL 6 Skeletal Champion.
If you disagree I would like to know what effective cohort level is adequate for a minotaur; and why.
Doesn't that make sense?
Depends on what you are asking:
1) Does it make sense that you are blindly, and unnecessarily, defending Pathfinder As Published (PAP)?
A) Absolutely.
2) Does it make sense that an inconsistency slipped through?
A) Unfortunately, yes. Given the scope and deadline Paizo gave themselves, this turned out to be a slightly over ambitious project. But these inconsistencies need to be mentioned, if they are ever going to be rectified.
3) Does it make sense that the "as PC" rules/guidelines do not line up with the "as Cohort" rules/guidelines?
A) Not one bit. There is nothing that any given race/monster can "bring to the table" as a cohort that makes it more powerful/harder to balance than if it were a PCs race. If anything, it should be the other way around (and it shouldn't) because some games the GM rules that cohorts are run by him/her alone.
A races'/monsters' "character level" should equal its' "cohort level" at all times. Not only does this eliminate the need for two sets of rules/guidelines on the subject (freeing up that precious resource of space), but it "makes sense."
As for the Erinyes, there is nothing about it that warrants a character needing to be 18th level, Lawful Evil, and having a total of +5 (or more) bonus to their leadership score to first gain an Erinyes as a cohort. (Or +6 modifiers and one step away from Lawful Evil.)
True Seeing? It is a sixth level spell, which means it first becomes available as a renewable resource at 11th level (I'm not counting alternative methods, such as scrolls and UMD). You honestly believe a character should have to wait a minimum of 7 more levels before his/her cohort can have it?
Greater Teleport? Even at will isn't "all that." If it could affect someone other than the Erinyes, I could give it more weight. I mean yes, the Erinyes makes a great carrier pigeon... But not one that I'd have to wait until 18th level (minimum) to use.
Going over what we have so far... My best "eyeball" suggestion (meaning it is far from perfect) is CR + 50% for both character level and cohort level. This would put the Erinyes at 12th, the Pixie at 6th, the Unicorn at 5th, and the Ghoul at 2nd*.
That is more in line with the actual power level of the creatures. But still isn't perfect.
* This is the only one that seems more than a little low (i.e.: off by more than one). But since you have to be at least 7th level to get a cohort, it works out alright with that. As a character... Not so much.