Hi,
I've got a Fighter/Rogue build TWF and am considering retraining a feat for Power Attack.
I'm Duel Wielding Scimitar's and have Oversize TWF.
Let's me wield two med weapons at -2/-2 when twf.
Vexing Flanker (+4 instead of +2 on a flank), Two weapon pounce, ITWF and others
At Fgtr10/Rog10 ill have a:
Final Full Attack (not counting enhancements or Str)
BAB +17 (-2 TWF, +2 Wpn Training, +2 Gtr Weapon Fcs) so: +19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+4 or +19/+19 on a charge.
You only add your weapon damage, enhancement, Str and TW rend.
Flanking pumps this AB to +23 and adds Sneak attack so flank as priority. Obviously (size I haven't added STR bonus or Magic yet) the To Hit chance is darn good. (About as high as it can get for TWF barring straight fighter who'd get another +2 for more weapon training)
Now the build is based around flanking for Sneak attack, but obviously you can't ALWAYS flank so is Power Attack worth taking?
For a straight fighter I'd say yes as weapon training 4 nearly eliminates the penalty (BAB 20, GWF +2, Weapon Training +4, Power Attack -5 = A bonus of +19 without adding str or magic)
but with this build the numbers are not as good.
Against enemies that you can flank, turn on power attack for +10 damage with the primary hand and +5 with the off hand per attack (your +4 flanking bonus means your Attack Bonus is still +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+3),
If you can’t flank, use of power attack drops AB to +14/+14/+9/+9/+4/-1. Still get 6 attacks but at a much lower to hit.
So for the math guys. Is Power Attack gonna hit enough to make it worth it? Ups damage but vs an equal CR encounter is it gonna hit enough or should I stick with a normal full attack.
As stated above I'm considering this as the times when flanking can't be done really saps my damage output (since no Sneak attack).
Cheers.
Aww, c'mon,
was hoping one of the poster's would know Average AC's vs to hit percentiles, keen to know how often you could expect to hit......
In less than six hours? Sorry many of us have lives, and aren't always on hand waiting to run a simple math problem for people at the drop of a hat. Possibly waiting a full day before bumping would be a good idea in general, especially when asking for help.
Noted. Apologies, I work week on week off and when away I probably spend too much time on here :)
Cheers.
Well power attack is going to subtract 4 to give x2 damage on the primary weapon and x1 damage on the secondary weapon which means whatever penalty you take for power attacking you'll get x3 for damage (if both weapons hit).
So:
-4 to hit = + 8 damage/ + 4 damage
Across 6 attacks this would be = +48 damage / +24 damage
IF you hit with all attacks.
Double slice might be a good choice too: it gives you full strength bonus on your off hand attack for no penalty, which means a strength of 18 would give you +4 damage / +4 damage instead of +4 damage/ +2 damage.
Over 6 attacks that would be an extra 12 damage, but with no penalty... 1/4 the damage 0% the penalty.
Agreed on double slice, already in the build. Making this guy for max damage, gonna take two weapon rend as well.
Power attack damage bonus is nice but was more worried about to hit chances vs av CR AC. (Keep in mind my maths below is BAB and feat based, STR and Wpn bonuses are not added in)
I like TWF chars but have never done so with a straight rogue (not power attacking) as I figured a rogue TWF would only have a to hit of +14/+14/+9/+9/+4 (allowing BAB 15, -2 for TWF, +1 for wpn fcs)so wouldn't be hitting with the iterative attacks often. so will LIKELY hit what 3 times on average with appox 30 SA damage (as long as you flank)
Potentailly a straight TW fighter (power attacking) could still outdamage a rogue with 18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3 (add 4 for weapon training, 2 for gtr wpn fcs, -5 for power attack) so will LIKELY hit what 5 times? with 10 extra per primary strike and 5 for off-hand strike (not dependent on flanking)
My rogue10/fighter10 build if he WERE to power attack would be at
BAB +17. So -2 for TWF, -5 for PA, +2 for weapon training and +2 for GWF:Scimitar your full attack is
+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1 doing with 10 extra per primary strike and 5 for off-hand strike (not dependent on flanking) and possibly (5d6 per strike if flanked)
With a starting str of 14 (pumping it to 18 as I level) and a Belt of STR with level appropirate magic weapon- how often, on average could is expect to hit?
Also I'd like to apply SA to full attacks WITHOUT being dependent on flanking. Impr Feint is crap as you can't full attack with it. What about Dazzling Display and Shatter defences?
'Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.'
That means I could full attack with Sneak Attack right? If I'm the one doing the demoralising via Dazzling Display- how long do they remain frightened?
Cheers.
Ardenup wrote: Average AC's vs to hit percentiles CR+13 is average AC iirc, check Bestiary.
How does -5 PA get you +19 again?
Ardenup wrote: SA to full attacks WITHOUT being dependent on flanking.
What about Dazzling Display and Shatter defences?
Not many ways other than Flanking, get Adaptive Flanker.
D.D. might work (from your quote it does), but iirc it is a Standard so you only get AoO Sneak.
I have an excel sheet I made for doing math like this. Right click and save it from here.
The problem with comparing your base "to hit" without any magical or strength modifiers, to the average CR, is it's comparing apples to oranges.
The monster's CR assumes you are attacking it with your full out bonuses. That means a Magic Weapon, Strength score, and any additional magical bonuses (Bard, Heroism, Haste, etc).
If I just plug in the numbers without assuming a Strength score or whatnot, you are looking at a lot of the attacks landing only on a 20, which skews the numbers drastically (if it's 5% chance to hit whether you have that extra 5 attack or not, then it's not a good representation).
If you can kit the guy out (or at least play the numbers and guess a little what his final AB and magic weapon damage would look like), it'll give a realistic answer.
.
Overall though, plugging in some imaginary numbers, TWF with Power Attack is either going to lower your overall average damage output, keep it close enough to the same (albeit slightly less), or in the rare instance where most of your attacks will almost always land it's somewhat better.
That -5 to hit on the average AC hurts your build. And that's assuming the creature isn't being buffed by some BBEG with additional spells outside of it's normal statblock.
Then again, Power Attack was always designed for someone who was drastically overpowering the AC of the enemy. Even a two-hander with his gobs of Power Attack goodness is going to be hurting if he drops 5 Attack Bonus against a high AC target.
That's what I figured. I decided to skip power attack and go with skill focus: intimidate, dazzling defence, shatter defences as that lets me full attack intimidated opponets with SA. :) just not sure weather it applies to the FIRST hit or not:
Benefit: Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.
James Risner wrote:
How does -5 PA get you +19 again?
It doesn't unless you are a straight fighter.
I'll explain further.
Consider a straight fighter. Specialising in TWF weilding 2 medium weapons of the same type (i.e. 2 longswords or whatever)
Taking Oversize TWF (lets you TWF and the offhand weapon counts as light
Wpn Fcs
Gtr Wpn Fcs
Power Attack.
Improved TWF and Gtr
Assume weapon training was invested in the same type of favored weapon.
No a 20th level fighter has
BAB 20.
Weapon training 4
Wpnfcs and Gtr
So without adding STR or Magic his BAB (factoring feats only)
He has a BAB of 20 +2GWF +4Wpn Training so Full attack is +26/+21/+16/+11.
Now if you GTWF you take a -2 to primary and off hand attacks:
+24/+24/+19/+19/+14/+14/+9
Now GTWF with Power Attack (-5)
+19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4 (adding 10 damage to primary and 5 to offhand strikes)
Only fighters can PA with TWF and get numbers this high without bonuses. Still worth it.
My char (when finished) is Rogue10/Fighter10
BAB 17
Weapon training 2
Oversize TWF (lets you TWF and the offhand weapon counts as light)
Wpn Fcs
Gtr Wpn Fcs
Improved TWF
Full Attck is BAB17 +wpn train2+ Wpn Fcs, GTR =21
When twf (-2 to primary and offhand)
this means a full attack of
+19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9 (the seventh attack of +4 not there as I didn't take GTR TWF)
As long as I flank or with Shatter defences attack a shaken/frightened opponent I'll add 5d6 SA damage (7d6 if you took Martial Stance: Assasin's Stance, TOB, but I digress)
So a Fgtr TWF with Power Attacking gets 7 attacks adding 10damage to the 4 primary and 5damage to the 3 offhand
A Rogue/Fighter TWF gts 5d6 (av 15 damage) to 6 attacks.
As long as the rogue can get regular flanking he'll be on par or out damage the fighter a little.
TWF is really only worth it for BAB 20 classes (or Fighter10/A 3/4 BAB class) as weapon training means you can have a Full attack at around the same numbers as a Normal Full BAB class (A TH Barbarian for instance will have a AB of 20 (+1 for Wpn FCS) not counting str.
My OP was simply weather it was worth MY build of Rog10/Fgtr10 to try to TWF and PA at the same time. After seeing the numbers (thanks for that by the way) I'd say NO. I'll forget PA and go with Adaptable Flanker instead.
Cheers.
Ardenup wrote: That's what I figured. I decided to skip power attack and go with skill focus: intimidate, dazzling defence, shatter defences as that lets me full attack intimidated opponets with SA. :) just not sure whether it applies to the FIRST hit or not:
Benefit: Any shaken, frightened, or panicked opponent hit by you this round is flat-footed to your attacks until the end of your next turn. This includes any additional attacks you make this round.
Not sure you need to take Skill Focus - you can use attack roll for Dazzling Display. Even with +6 you won't be getting that much better benefit out of it.
Shatter Defenses works on all attacks until the end of your next turn, not just the first.
I have a (mostly) straight TWF Rogue playing in my Second Darkness campaign who picked up Power Attack. For him, it's pretty much an option for a first attack moving in, or from surprise against mid-ACs, and against un-flanked targets that either have a low AC or high DR.
One way of looking at it for when you *are* sneak attacking is this: taking a -5 penalty to each primary and off-hand attack makes you 50% less likely to land a hit with that set, but you do +15 damage when you do. That 50% loss includes 21 damage from weapon & sneak attack, plus strength/magic/other.
The extra damage would be nice but I'm not sure the loss to hit is worth it. Besides I took Craven from Champions of ruin (adds my level as extra damage to SA) and staggering strike from CA, bleeding attack and crippling strike so I think I'm covered (Crippling strike is an awesome debuff)
So does dazzling display mean use an attack roll rather than skill check?
Benefit: While wielding the weapon in which you have Weapon Focus, you can perform a bewildering show of prowess as a full-round action. Make an Intimidate check to demoralize all foes within 30 feet who can see your display.
Doesn't seem to. I took it to mean you took a full round action to demoralize EVERYBODY in 30ft as opposed to a regular intimidate check which does 1 enemy as a standard action.
Further I took Skill Fcs: Intimidate as I'm a half -elf. If I don't need it I'd rather put in into perception.
Cheers.
Majuba wrote:
Not sure you need to take Skill Focus - you can use attack roll for Dazzling Display. Even with +6 you won't be getting that much better benefit out of it.
The attack roll is gone. The final rules for Dazzling Display are just the intimidate check:
"While wielding the weapon in which you have Weapon Focus, you can perform a bewildering show of prowess as a full-round action. Make an Intimidate check to demoralize all foes within 30 feet who can see your display."
Kaisoku wrote: I have an excel sheet I made for doing math like this. Right click and save it from here.
YOU. ARE. AWESOME.
Ardenup wrote: YOU. ARE. AWESOME. Thanks! Glad you liked it!
About the only thing that sheet doesn't calculate for you automatically is if DR affects your attacks. Perhaps I'll get around to that sometime.
Eric Mason 37 wrote: The attack roll is gone. The final rules for Dazzling Display are just the intimidate check: Thank you Eric, my bad :)
Majuba wrote: Thank you Eric, my bad :) No problem. It's hard to find all those little changes from Beta! :)
Dazzling display is pretty awesome- funny though as shatter defences is new (so probably not yet widely known enough) that -rogue- lovers don't realise just how much better it is for rogues than Improved feint. I've seen a few 'combat rogue' threads going on about improved feint and think it's crap. was in 3rd ed and still is now.
Dazzling Display and Shatter defences are core. Work on multiple opponents, last longer and let you FULL ATTACK for SA. Deadly stroke is also cool but straight rogues (unfortunately) can't take it.
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