Sneak attack + multiple attacks

[Mojorat]

An attack requires an attack roll.

[Rikkan]

Mojorat wrote:

An attack requires an attack roll.

That is not true.

PRD wrote:

Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. All offensive combat actions, even those that don't damage opponents, are considered attacks. Attempts to channel energy count as attacks if it would harm any creatures in the area. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Spells that summon monsters or other allies are not attacks because the spells themselves don't harm anyone.

[Mojorat]

Yes, but the context of sneak attack requires an attack roll.

[Rikkan]

Where does it say that?

[Mojorat]

The rogue description of sneak attack referenced ac weapon damage etc. Not to mention applying SA to fireballs is the point of the arcane trickster cap stone.o

[Rikkan]

It only refers to weapons when talking about non-lethal damage.
If you want to deal lethal damage no limits are in place.

[Nosdarb]

Sneak Attack wrote:

If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

That's all the important bits, nu?

Here's the trick. When you cast Fireball, no attack occurs.

Full text here if you want it.

"But fireball is an attack!" you protest.

No, it's not. Attacks involve a to-hit roll. Fireball is a spell. Spell casting occurs, but attacking doesn't. Much like Continual Flame is a spell which doesn't require a to-hit.

"That's stupid. Continual Light isn't an offensive spell! Of course there's no to-hit."

Oh yeah? What about if you're trying to dispel Darkness using it? Then it's got combat applications. Still no to-hit roll.

Sneak Attack wrote:

If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack,

For emphasis, you must attack to benefit from Sneak Attack (Unless you're an Arcane Trickster. In which case you just need to deal damage.) Casting a spell may have offensive implications, but it is not explicitly attacking.

The distinction is weird as hell, I know, but it's just part and parcel of D20.

[Rikkan]

Nosdarb wrote:

Here's the trick. When you cast Fireball, no attack occurs.

"But fireball is an attack!" you protest.

No, it's not. Attacks involve a to-hit roll. Fireball is a spell. Spell casting occurs, but attacking doesn't. Much like Continual Flame is a spell which doesn't require a to-hit.

You're wrong. See:

PRD wrote:

All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks.

[Mojorat]

Yes but a fireball does not target ac. A surprised flat footed denied Rex opponent has no change their ability to resist fireball. Did you notice all the conditions listed involve ac.

[The Human Diversion]

My PFS Arcane Trickster just got to 7th level of that class, so I'm getting a kick out of this thread.

[Nosdarb]

Rikkan wrote:

You're wrong. See:

PRD wrote:

All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks.

That's pretty telling, actually. This seems like a case where RAW and RAI don't agree. See also on that same page:

PRD wrote:

Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?

Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)

For example, a bard's inspire courage ability says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so <you> don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.

The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.

Which seems to be a long winded way of saying that the Weapon-Like Spells rules from the Complete Arcane still stand. Also:

FAQ wrote:

Arcane Trickster: How does the Surprise Spells class feature work with spells like magic missile and fireball?

The Surprise Spells class feature allows the Arcane Trickster to add his sneak attack dice to spells that deal damage that target flat-footed foes. This damage is only applied once per spell. In the case of fireball this means it affects all targets in the area, with each getting a save to halve the damage (including the sneak attack damage). In the case of magic missile, the extra damage is only added once to one missile, chosen by the caster when the spell is cast.

If this Arcane Trickster class feature is any indication, you're not supposed to get sneak attack damage on these spell normally.

It seems like they think there's more information available on this scenario than there actually is.

So RAW: Rogues get Sneak Attack damage on attacks (when they qualify). All spells that deal damage or allow saving throws are attacks. Therefore: When a rogue casts a spell that deals damage or allows a saving throw they get Sneak Attack damage(against qualifying targets).

But RAI: Rogues get Sneak Attack damage on attacks with weapons they're proficient with. Some spells are weapon-like in nature. Therefore: Rogues that can cast spells get Sneak Attack damage on weapon-like spells (against qualifying targets). Arcante Tricksters get Sneak Attack damage regardless of the weapon-like quality of the spell.

How does PFS handle this? That's probably the most definitive answer on the subject.

Oh, also, Critical Hits != Precision Damage. They're not coupled the way they were in 3.x, so that's kind of irrelevant.

Arcane Trickster FAQ

Weapon-Like Spell reference

Effect: Ray rules

Spells are Attacks