For a new pathfinder campaign I created a 1st level PC who is a half-elf sorceress, elemental bloodline (earth). Her spells are Mage Armor and Grease.
I'm looking at her future in the Pathfinder rulebook, and it looks bleak. Next level, she gets another cantrip. Then at 3rd level, another 1st level spell. Finally, at 4th level, if she gets that far, she gets to pick out a single 2nd level spell that she will be casting over and over and over again. Come to think of it, she'll be casting Grease over and over and over again because, besides Mage Armor, that's the only 1st level spell she knows.
Oh, and she also gets Burning Hands at 3rd level, which someone has described as the most useless spell in the book. It will be nice to be able to resist acid though.
So I am thinking of multiclassing into druid or barbarian. But if I do that, what's the point of taking more levels of sorcerer? If it is casting spells that I am interested in, then it seems that levels of druid would be a better choice. Taking more levels of sorcerer just delays access to better druidic spells. It's hard to see what my character would get from taking more levels of sorcerer.
I thought I'd come here and see if I can get some advice about how to evolve this character. Right now I am thinking of going for a warrior/caster type who relies on mobility and spells to control the battlefield.
My thought is, unless I change my mind, take the 2nd level in Barbarian, and then the 3rd level in Druid. I'm not sure where to go after that, probably Barbarian again, and maybe a couple more levels of Druid.
Hey Utgardlokie, how's it going?
Probably the best thing I could reccomend if your not liking the vibe of the sorcerer (which I totally understand, I rewrote the class for my games lol) and want to multi-class, is to multi-class with a goal in mind.
One example, would be shooting for Arcane Archer or Eldritch Knight (or some combination therof)
One suggestion I have to make though. If you plan on making attack rolls, do not, and I repeat, do not multi-class into druid (unless your planning to only level druid from then on out, then it could be ok, if your good with your wildshape tricks) the lost BAB would hurt far too bad if you were just going to dip druid.
Good seeing you again man.
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Well, well it seems I've actually got a lot of experience in this field.
Welcome to the realms of arcane magic done the sorcerer way! It is quite the wonderful and fantastic journey if you are willing to accept the path for what it is!
So I see you've got your elemental ray of acid a number of times per day, that'll help you out a bit. If you have a chance, I'd seriously reconsider that mage armor spell as one of your first picks. There are so many more interesting spells you could be taking that aren't quite as easily replaced with a 25gp scroll.
You and your party would probably get a lot more bang for your spell casting slot if you had something more along the lines of Enlarge Person, Burning Hands, Color Spray or even just a standard Magic Missile. They have a lot more effect and you've got grease to do creative things with. Mage Armor doesn't really help you out when it comes to enjoying your character or doing things. +4 to your AC is nice, but it'll only be for an hour and it'll use up one of your valuable 1st level spell slots.
Your cantrips are also extremely useful if you have the ability to think creatively. Prestidigitation alone can give you hours of enjoyment every day!
Seeing as your a half-elf you won't have both Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot at first level, so you're automatically adding +4 to +8 to the touch AC's of anything your fighting, so your elemental rays should be used in the most advantageous situations where your allies aren't giving the target cover. You'll also want to pick yourself up a light crossbow and a one-handed melee weapon of some type. Don't forget to grab a vial of acid or two as well as a vial of holy water if you've got the cash left over for it. Never hurts to be prepared.
Heya Utgardloki.
Firstly, I feel your pain, honestly I do. I have an all sorcerer game going at the moment and they really suffered at the lower levels.
Secondly: At this point there is not a lot to do except weather it out. At second level you add one extra damage to your acid ray, which is small compensation I know, and a +1 to BAB. Might I suggest taking a more martial stance at that level, as a ranged touch attack isn't the hardest attack in the world.
Other than that, for second level at least, the extra cantrip should be one with real oomph to it. presdidigitation is awesome in that regard and the usefullness for guidance is pretty high as well (at least at the appropriate level).
By taking mage armour, you have basically come out and admitted you want to get into combat. I Suggest getting a ranged weapon to support this. In addition, start buying scrolls in bulk where possible. get some Cure light wounds while you are their (Use magic device is your friend) and make yourself backup support. (remember characters who are balancing are flatfooted...such as wehn walking over a greased surface. easy targets for a ranged touch attack, good for any melee guy and awesome for the rogue. also Grease = disarm)
For third level, you get burning hands as well as a spell of choice. The burining hands becomes acid hands. It's not useless, but it is problematic. as a 15 foot cone you actually want opponents to be right next to you, not the best idea for the sorcerer. I reccommend that when you have this spell, have it as a held action while you wait for opponents to be near to you, then back the heckfire away. the spell for that level should be something with a little more kick. I reccommend ray of enfeeblement, or alternatively get reduce person of enlarge, which are both excellent buffer/debuffers that don't require you to be in combat.
If you really must multiclass, take a level or two as a fighter. a level or two will vastly improve you survivability (Good HP, Fort boost, ability to wear armour and the patented feat every level) which allows you to play more but spell cast less. ranger works as well and gives you better skill points. You will suffer while wearing armour, but nothing really stops you using scrolls (for best results, take scribe scroll or arcane armour training)
Batts
First, I agree with what's already been said about Mage Armor. Accept the fact that you're squishy and keep yourself out of trouble. Clever use of Grease can help you with that.
What you want to do as a sorcerer is select spells that will always, or almost always, be useful. You want spells that will be useful now and will still be useful 10 or 15 levels from now. I am almost positive that you will find some Bracers of Armor along the way that will essentially give you a permanent Mage Armor spell (and they don't stack with Mage Armor), so let's settle for being squishy for a while unitl you find those bracers.
Now that we've dropped Mage Armor, pick something else that is versatile, always useful, and will even be useful when you're a big old high level sorcerer. Consider Ray of Enfeeblement or Enlarge Person, both of which will be useful for many levels to come.
Also select your cantrips for versatility. Get one damaging cantrip (Ray of Frost maybe). It's puny, but you will find yourself using it. Detect Magic, Read Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Message, and Prestidigitation are all good.
Keep the rules of versitility and useability in mind with every spell you choose.
Another thought, it's almost always bad to multiclass a pure spellcaster. Really, if you want to switch to druid, then just reroll. How much of this level 1 sorcerer ability will your druid ever really need? Enough to be lagging behind everyone else by a level?
But I say give the sorcerer a chance. With good spell selection, you'll aways have something to cast in every fight (which isn't always true for wizards or druids).
You might want to rethink the elemental bloodline. It's ultimately all about transforming into an elemental and wading into combat, smiting your enemies with Power Attack and touch type spells. All fine and good, but you're going to be the squishiest, lowest-HP, puniest elemental there ever was, and you'll mostly just get yourself killed, or awfully wounded, if you play this way (and you'll be a big drain on your party's healer too). Everyone will end up frustrated. Sad but true.
Still, if you go that route, make sure that you do pick up some touch spells and other short range combat spells along the way so you can use them when you wear your foam-rubber elemental suit.
I am thinking that if I take a level of sorcerer, a level of barbarian, and a level of druid, I'll be able to case Mage Armor and Grease at will, get a good selection of 1st level druid spells, and combat abilities.
A second level of barbarian would then get me uncanny dodge and a neat rage power. Two more levels of druid would get me the 2nd level spells like Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, Flaming Sphere. Two more levels of sorcerer would get me another cantrip and two 1st-level spells, one of which would be Burning Hands.
The other spell could be Shield, which would help with the Warrior/Caster aspect. Using arcane magic to get +8 to AC might not be too bad. Maybe a Mage Hand or an Open/Close cantrip wouldn't be too bad.
Plotting this out:
Lvl 1 - Sor 1: Arcane spells - Mage Armor and Grease
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Lvl 2 - Sor 1/Bar 1: +1 BAB, Fast Movement, Rage
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Lvl 3 - Sor 1/Bar 1/Drd 1: 1st level Druid spells, Nature abilities
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Lvl 4 - Sor 2/Bar 1/Drd 1: +2 BAB, Mage Hand cantrip
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Lvl 5 - Sor 2/Bar 2/Drd 1: +3 BAB, Rage power
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Lvl 6 - Sor 2/Bar 2/Drd 2: +4 BAB, Woodland Stride
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Lvl 7 - Sor 3/Bar 2/Drd 2: Shield spell, Burning Hands, Resist Acid 10
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Lvl 8 - Sor 3/Bar 2/Drd 3: +5 BAB, 2nd level Druid spells, Trackless Step
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Lvl 9 - Sor 4/Bar 2/Drd 3: +6 BAB, Web
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Lvl 10 - Sor 4/Bar 2/Drd 4: +7 BAB, Resist Nature's Lure, Wild Shape
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I am thinking that if I take a level of sorcerer, a level of barbarian, and a level of druid, I'll be able to case Mage Armor and Grease at will, get a good selection of 1st level druid spells, and combat abilities.
A second level of barbarian would then get me uncanny dodge and a neat rage power. Two more levels of druid would get me the 2nd level spells like Cat's Grace, Eagle's Splendor, Flaming Sphere. Two more levels of sorcerer would get me another cantrip and two 1st-level spells, one of which would be Burning Hands.
The other spell could be Shield, which would help with the Warrior/Caster aspect. Using arcane magic to get +8 to AC might not be too bad. Maybe a Mage Hand or an Open/Close cantrip wouldn't be too bad.
Plotting this out:
Lvl 1 - Sor 1: Arcane spells - Mage Armor and Grease
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Lvl 2 - Sor 1/Bar 1: +1 BAB, Fast Movement, Rage
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Lvl 3 - Sor 1/Bar 1/Drd 1: 1st level Druid spells, Nature abilities
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Lvl 4 - Sor 2/Bar 1/Drd 1: +2 BAB, Mage Hand cantrip
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Lvl 5 - Sor 2/Bar 2/Drd 1: +3 BAB, Rage power
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Lvl 6 - Sor 2/Bar 2/Drd 2: +4 BAB, Woodland Stride
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Lvl 7 - Sor 3/Bar 2/Drd 2: Shield spell, Burning Hands, Resist Acid 10
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Lvl 8 - Sor 3/Bar 2/Drd 3: +5 BAB, 2nd level Druid spells, Trackless Step
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Lvl 9 - Sor 4/Bar 2/Drd 3: +6 BAB, Web
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Lvl 10 - Sor 4/Bar 2/Drd 4: +7 BAB, Resist Nature's Lure, Wild Shape
I'd consider sticking with only one, or maybe two classes. As it is, you're going to be a level 4 sorcerer, level 2 barbarian, and level 4 druid, who all have to share the same set of actions in combat, fighting a bunch of level 10 enemies.
You'll be severely underpowered, because your first and second level spells won't hold a candle to the 5th level spells a single-classes sorcerer or druid could use. Compare:
Your proprosed progression:
Scorching Ray (randomly chosen 2nd level spell example) would only get a single ray (sorcerer level 7 required for a 2nd ray) and that ray would deal 4d6.
Level 10 Sorcerer:
Scorching ray does the same damage, but now hits two targets. You also get 3rd and 4th level spells. Your Fireball spell (dealing acid damage) just topped out at 10d6 damage, and you now can cast Phantasmal Killer, forcing your targets to take a fort save or die and they even take 3d6 damage if they make it.
EDIT: Forgot to ask the question of stats. What would your ability scores look like with your proposed build? Something is going to be seriously suffering if you don't have some bad-ass stats; you'll want Charisma for sorcerer spells and DC, Wisdom for the Druid, and Strength and Constitution for the barbarian. That's some pretty crazy MAD.
I agree with many of the advices given.
And let me just point one thing out. Half-elves gain skill focus as a bonus feat. If you put that in Use Magic Device and choose UMD as one of your skills, you'll have a +7 from the get go, without taking your cha mod. into account. You can soon use any magic device with only a small chance of failure... Well, sort of soon, anywho ;-) But considering that a wand is DC 20 to use, it's most likely more than 50% chance to pull it off at 1st level even...
Have a clear plan with your character is in fact a very good idea, but do consider the downsides by multiclassing too much, if at all...
Thats my 2cp for now.
And do remember that we're in it to have fun :) And my fun is not necessarily your fun!
Burning hands is not a bad spell. After all, it's the earliest area damage spell an arcanist can get.
I'd probably used magic missile instead of grease as one of the first spells, but then again I usually envision sorcerers as "I AM THE BOOMSTICK"-type characters.
But it looks like you just won't have any fun with the class. Instead of trying to make the sorcerer work for you by using several other classes, just retire the character and play a different class to begin with. I think that's the best solution.
Generally, multiclassing spellcasters is an awful idea mechanically.
The best thing you can do with a sorcerer is pre-plan!
For now, get a crossbow, and get used to using it. Your grease spell is a very useful spell - but is only really useful once in most combats.
Burning Hands is better than you've heard, though it isn't great. It will however give you the ability to cause damage to your enemies without a to hit roll. Primarily it's good for several weaker opponents.
At 3rd level, maybe consider either silent image or even Summon Monster I. Both these spells are very versatile, which is pretty handy when your level is so low.
The payoff for sorcerer will come later, by level 6 you are going to be feeling much better (as long as you don't multiclass!). However, pre-plan those spell selections!!!
The flaw is in the classes as written. If you examine the number of spells known by a bard vs a sorcerer, you will find that, other then 1st level, the bard knows 1-2 more spells of each level. The exception, at 6th level, is that the bard does not get to know any 3rd level spells (they may not cast them yet) - so the sorcerer and bard end up knowing the same number of spells. Then at 7th, the bard exceeds the sorcerer again...
The sorcerer picks up from there - but this is (IMHO) unacceptable. The sorcerer is a primary caster, that is his one shstick, as it were. The bard, though, is a caster, buffer, melee fellow. I'd be okay if they both knew the same amount of spells (until we get to 8th+), but as is the sorcerer, whose resource is almost entirely his spells, is less capable then the fellow who has it as a 'side dish'.
This happened on accident, I'm sure. Paizo wanted to boost the spell abilities of the bard so they could cast a 1st level spell at 1st level, which I think the class needed. In doing so, however, they made the bard a more versatile caster then the sorcerer.
Note - the sorcerer casts a bunch more spells per day then the bard, which is great, but the player of a sorcerer is left in the lurch as far as variety goes. Either the bard should have their spells known reduced, or the sorcerer increased. My current solution is to allow the sorcerer to use the bard # of spells known until 6th level. This leaves the sorcerer behind at 7th level on spells known, but thereafter it is much better. The end result is not empowering, simply giving a bit more variety to the spells known.
Comparing the # of spells known - bard vs sorcerer.
LV 1: bards know an equal # of spells
LV 2: bard knows 1 extra 1st
LV 3: bard knows extra 0th & 1st
LV 4: bard knows extra 1st and 2nd
LV 5: bard knows extra 2nd
LV 6: sorcerer knows 1 extra 0th and 3rd (bards do not get 3rd level spells yet), but the bard knows 2 extra 2nd
LV 7: sorcerer knows 1 extra 0th, but bard knows 1 extra 2nd lv, they are now matched on 3rd level spells
**I know it will be mentioned - sorcerers get a bonus spell for their bloodline at 3rd/5th/7th/.... Since this is not a flexible list, but a predetermined one, I do not think it compensates the sorcerer.
Comparing the # of spells known - bard vs sorcerer, with bloodline boost
LV 1: bards know an equal # of spells
LV 2: bard knows 1 extra 1st
LV 3: bard knows extra 0th
LV 4: bard knows extra 2nd
LV 5: bards know an equal # of spells
LV 6: sorcerer knows 1 extra 0th and 3rd (bards do not get 3rd level spells yet), but the bard knows 1 extra 2nd
LV 7: tide turns for the sorcerer (Yeah team!)
Burning hands is not a bad spell. After all, it's the earliest area damage spell an arcanist can get.
I'd probably used magic missile instead of grease as one of the first spells, but then again I usually envision sorcerers as "I AM THE BOOMSTICK"-type characters.
But it looks like you just won't have any fun with the class. Instead of trying to make the sorcerer work for you by using several other classes, just retire the character and play a different class to begin with. I think that's the best solution.
I don't want to retire this character, because she has a good background. I'd rather make this character work.
I don't plan on being a "Boomstick" sorcerer. Since multiclassing drains a major spellcaster of the ability to go "BOOM!", my plan is to focus on utilities and buffs.
One option, that I've been resisting, is to go the Mystic Theurge route:
Lvl 1 - Sor 1 : Arcane spells, Mage Armor and Grease
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Lvl 2 - Sor 2 : +1 BAB, new cantrip (poss. Mage Hand)
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Lvl 3 - Drd 1 : 1st level Druid spells, nature abilities
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Lvl 4 - Drd 2 : +2 BAB, Woodland Stride
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Lvl 5 - Drd 3 : +3 BAB, Trackless step, 2nd level Druid spells
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Lvl 6 - Sor 3 : Burning Hands, Resist Acid 10, New 1st level spell
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Lvl 7 - Sor 4 : +4 BAB, New cantrip, New 2nd level spell
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Lvl 8 - Mystic Theurge 1
Or I can go with the original plan and take levels in any class that looks interesting.
By the way, in case anybody is curious about her stats, she has the following: Str 11, Con 12, Dex 14, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 18.
For her feat, I picked Dodge, because I figured a +1 to AC is good for a character without armor.
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By the way, in case anybody is curious about her stats, she has the following: Str 11, Con 12, Dex 14, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 18.
For her feat, I picked Dodge, because I figured a +1 to AC is good for a character without armor.
With a stat block like that, I'd definitely recommend going straight sorcerer. That high charisma will serve you much better as a straight sorcerer than as any sort of multiclass, and your strength definitely isn't high enough to justify taking any levels of barbarian.
I can't reiterate enough the concept that it's better to be darned good at a small number of things than it is to be mediocre at a lot of things.
Do you plan on mixing it up in melee much? With a d6 HD, 11 strength and 12 constitution, you shouldn't be. Put the feat into something that will further boost what you're good at, rather than trying to make up for what the sorcerer is not meant to be good at.
If you want to go mystic theurge, you might consider Wizard over Sorcerer. But from the sounds of it, you don't really want to play either, it seems like Druid or Bard would be a better choice. That way, you'll get slightly sturdier hit points, better AC, and you'll be better at buffing (which seems to be your goal anyway).
For a new pathfinder campaign I created a 1st level PC who is a half-elf sorceress, elemental bloodline (earth). Her spells are Mage Armor and Grease.
I'm looking at her future in the Pathfinder rulebook, and it looks bleak. Next level, she gets another cantrip. Then at 3rd level, another 1st level spell. Finally, at 4th level, if she gets that far, she gets to pick out a single 2nd level spell that she will be casting over and over and over again. Come to think of it, she'll be casting Grease over and over and over again because, besides Mage Armor, that's the only 1st level spell she knows.
Oh, and she also gets Burning Hands at 3rd level, which someone has described as the most useless spell in the book. It will be nice to be able to resist acid though.
So I am thinking of multiclassing into druid or barbarian. But if I do that, what's the point of taking more levels of sorcerer? If it is casting spells that I am interested in, then it seems that levels of druid would be a better choice. Taking more levels of sorcerer just delays access to better druidic spells. It's hard to see what my character would get from taking more levels of sorcerer.
I thought I'd come here and see if I can get some advice about how to evolve this character. Right now I am thinking of going for a warrior/caster type who relies on mobility and spells to control the battlefield.
My thought is, unless I change my mind, take the 2nd level in Barbarian, and then the 3rd level in Druid. I'm not sure where to go after that, probably Barbarian again, and maybe a couple more levels of Druid.
What exactly are you trying to accomplish with this character? Are you trying to get into melee? Wanting to multiclass into Barbarian would suggest that. If you want to do that with a sorceror, I recomend a high strength dragon blooded sorc and aim for dragon disciple. I am playing a sorc 5 dragon disciple 5 in one game, and while I dont outperform the fighter or paladin in melee, they dont get to hit the enemy with enervation first.
I am deep in the camp that says dont multiclass spellcasters, it is never worth it unless you are going for eldrich knight, and even then I dont think it works if you are leaning towards casting as opposed to the martial side.
Convince your DM to let you take alternate Elemental Bloodline bonus spells instead: Sorcerer Bloodline: Elemental
Y'know, I see a lot of hate for burning hands and I think a lot of people don't read (or fully consider?) the full spell description. I know my players didn't... they couldn't believe it when a first-level enemy cleric nearly killed two characters (one 2nd level) with a single spell that "only deals 1d4."
A cone of searing flame shoots from your fingertips. Any creature in the area of the flames takes 1d4 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 5d4). Flammable materials burn if the flames touch them. A character can extinguish burning items as a full-round action.
The part in bold is a specific exception to a general rule (that instantaneous effects do not catch things on fire). Let's take a closer look at the "catching on fire" rules:
Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and non-instantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don't normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash.
Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character's clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out—that is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he's no longer on fire.
Clothes or hair. RAW, you can be a bald nudist and avoid catching on fire. RAI, it's pretty clear that this is supposed to be a real hazard for any character.
What this means is that at first level, burning hands is potentially the highest damage spell available, dealing 1d4 + 1d6 fire damage and a continuing 1d6 on subsequent rounds. The 1d4 is save for half; if you save and the caster rolls a 1, you avoid the danger of catching on fire (no flames touched you). The extra 1d6 is save negates each round, but for many casters (especially NPCs, and especially in modules) it's actually a higher save than the primary damage!
Now, there's an interesting question of how this interacts with the energy substitution provided by the elemental bloodline. Personally I don't like the idea of the spell losing its base potential if you take a non-fire bloodline; I'd have persistent acid, clinging frost and continuous static discharge replace catching on fire, with the same damage and DC.
Edit: Right, the actual topic. :) I'm going to chime in with the "100% sorcerer" crowd; it's what you're going to be best at. Max out UMD for your cross-class utility.
You just don't have the physical attributes to support an arcane archer, trickster, or eldritch knight. Your high Charisma could make for a fun channel energy cleric build, but Theurge doesn't give any advancement there and permanently loses you a sorcerer spell level. (Note that your capstone spell is elemental swarm: a druid spell which you can't get if you go druid-theurge!)
With those stats, you definitely want to go straight Sorceror. That high Charisma will reap more benefits for you there than any cross-classing could. Also, Mage Armor is probably not great unless you're planning to get in a lot of fights, particularly in melee, which is a bad idea in this case. Burning Hands or Magic Missile will serve you well for a long time.
It's been my experience that wizards and sorcerers tend to get into combat whether they want to or not. Enemies have a way of targetting spellcasters. My goal would be to be able to survive a round or two while trying to get out of trouble.
Druid and sorcerer are both good classes but multiclassing them just makes them weaker. If you have a level of sorcerer the best thing you can do for your second level is keep with it. The first 3 levels are kind of rough but after that it gets better quick.
Other random thoughts:
Grease is an excellent spell but it requires a bit more creative thinking to be effective. You have to think tactically rather than trying to just do the 'boomstick' thing. In general a good archer is going to out damage a sorcerer in a lot of situations, you are better off focusing on things which archers can't do. Summon monster, color spray, enlarge person, silent image are all decent.
Grease + Sleep-poisoned Caltrops = a good laugh for the sorcerer and a painful Keystone Kops moment for their enemy.Druid and sorcerer are both good classes but multiclassing them just makes them weaker. If you have a level of sorcerer the best thing you can do for your second level is keep with it. The first 3 levels are kind of rough but after that it gets better quick.
Other random thoughts:
Grease is an excellent spell but it requires a bit more creative thinking to be effective. You have to think tactically rather than trying to just do the 'boomstick' thing. In general a good archer is going to out damage a sorcerer in a lot of situations, you are better off focusing on things which archers can't do. Summon monster, color spray, enlarge person, silent image are all decent.
I've never seen any rules for falling on caltrops.. how do you adjudicate that?