As much as I love the look of the maps presented in the rotrl series there pissing me off. im still an old scholl graft paper map drawing player and DM and your maps do not match up to any of the graft paper I own and trying to draw them out free hand is driving me crazy.
I dont use grid boards, mats or what ever and Im not going to spend the $$ I dont have to get them.
By any chance, in the future, can you make maps easier to trace out on graft paper and have the lines match up. I mean come on, the art work is great but the lines are not consistant.
Creative Director
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As much as I love the look of the maps presented in the rotrl series there pissing me off. im still an old scholl graft paper map drawing player and DM and your maps do not match up to any of the graft paper I own and trying to draw them out free hand is driving me crazy.
I dont use grid boards, mats or what ever and Im not going to spend the $$ I dont have to get them.
By any chance, in the future, can you make maps easier to trace out on graft paper and have the lines match up. I mean come on, the art work is great but the lines are not consistant.
I think we do a pretty good job "snapping to grid" with our dungeon maps. What maps in particular were causing problems? In any case, this IS something that I try to make happen—otherwise using a grid kind of doesn't make sense.
I think he wants the printed gridsize to line up with standard graph paper sizes.
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Creative Director
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I think he wants the printed gridsize to line up with standard graph paper sizes.
Oh! Interesting.
hmm... that's unfortunately not something we'll probably be able to do, since the size of a location and the fact that we normally want to use 5-foot-squares means that the actual size of the grids we use is highly variable.
ya i know, sorry just venting frustrasion. Im using standerd gragh paper trying to trace out the map of the Ravenous Crypts of Gluttony. I can get 4 squares to line up and match 1 square on my graph paper, but 2-3 lines to the left or right do not line up correctly, there for I cant trace the map out correctly.
You might transpose it? It is graph paper after all.
I have my own totally different set of needs for maps that aren't fully met, since I do all my gaming in maptool. I think the maps in the Pathfinder books are a necessary compromise. There's just so much stuff they need to fit in every issue, I'm not sure more full-page (or multi-page!) maps would be worth the extra real-estate.
I'm just hoping that one day VTTs will be so popular that higher-res illustrated maps will make sense to publish.
My beef with them is all the round edges. I know that, realistically, there should be circular buildings and such, but in my experience adjudicating what is able to stand in a partial square from a rounding is a pain in the arse. When using a square grid, round things just don't work the way one would like, so I tend to avoid them or square them out as per the standard method of gridding spell effects and what-not.
This does cause some of my group to tease me about the pixelated buildings I draw on the battle mat, but it makes it much easier to determine what squares are viable to stand in...
If you haven't finalized the advanced DM's Guide, a guideline of how to deal with such situations would actually be a good idea, IMHO.
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Creative Director
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If you haven't finalized the advanced DM's Guide, a guideline of how to deal with such situations would actually be a good idea, IMHO.
Actually, I just finished writing a 3,600 word section of that book that talks about how to draw dungeon maps. Although it doesn't advise the mapper to follow the grids—my opinion is that it's better to allow locations to look interesting and be interesting and realistic. Being too enslaved by the grid can certainly make for maps that work well for miniatures, but not everyone who plays the game uses miniatures. And more to the point, I think that maps designed with this philosophy are kind of ugly and unrealistic since maps are not just locations to fight, but representations of locations in the game world.
The style of maps Wizards of the Coast produces for 4th edition adventures follows this style pretty well, actually; you might want to grab some of their adventures or resources to build up a nice collection of battle-mat friendly locations to use in your campaigns. And when it really comes down to it, you can never have TOO MANY maps, yeah?
I think that they just need the grid lines on the map to line up with the lines on graph paper. making it easier to trace.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I think that they just need the grid lines on the map to line up with the lines on graph paper. making it easier to trace.
Without knowing the scale of the grid you're using and the width of the printed lines on those pages, it would be near impossible for Paizo to do that. And what if you and I use different sized graph paper? Who should Paizo cater toward?
It'd be nice I'm sure, but its not a realistic demand like, it'll never happen. Also has this even come up before?
If not your clamour won't be able to make them take a really unproductive step. Some of the people on this thread suggested really sound alternatives though.
To the OP.. couldn't you just figure out how many of your graph paper squares equal a 5-foot square on a given Pathfinder map, then adjust the Pathfinder map on a copy machine by that factor? From there you should be able to trace. It's early and my mind might not be working right, but it seems like that would work
You could also probably just make your own battle grid on a sheet of posterboard and have it laminated at kinkos or something. They actually have those big drafting printers.. you could probably even just go there and tell them you need a 1-inch grid pattern in whatever dimension and then have them laminate it. I can't imagine it would be more than 10-15 bucks.
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You could also probably just make your own battle grid on a sheet of posterboard and have it laminated at kinkos or something. They actually have those big drafting printers.. you could probably even just go there and tell them you need a 1-inch grid pattern in whatever dimension and then have them laminate it. I can't imagine it would be more than 10-15 bucks.
Which is the same price as a Paizo flipmat after shipping charges in most cases. FYI.
Also, since we're on the subject... Is there any chance we could get the cartographers from the Second Darkness AP rounded up by the Spanish Inquisition and made to sit in the comfy chair while beat with pillows until the relent and promise never to draw a circle again. You insane people drove us to buy a white board compass by the third volume of the adventure path. My characters have grown to hate golarion elves because of their alien, self-centered, xenophobic behavior. I have come to hate Golarion elves, as a GM, because of their insane, arc-obsessed architects! By the end of the 3rd installment we thought we were pretty smart with our handy compass... only to move on to Endless Night and find everything transformed to ovals and tear drops in Zinarkaykin. Damn, damn you to hell! J/K
Seriously, Paizo makes some of the most attractive maps in the industry. Now if they'd only send me a digital projector for the holidays.
You could also probably just make your own battle grid on a sheet of posterboard and have it laminated at kinkos or something. They actually have those big drafting printers.. you could probably even just go there and tell them you need a 1-inch grid pattern in whatever dimension and then have them laminate it. I can't imagine it would be more than 10-15 bucks.Which is the same price as a Paizo flipmat after shipping charges in most cases. FYI.
Also, since we're on the subject... Is there any chance we could get the cartographers from the Second Darkness AP rounded up by the Spanish Inquisition and made to sit in the comfy chair while beat with pillows until the relent and promise never to draw a circle again. You insane people drove us to buy a white board compass by the third volume of the adventure path. My characters have grown to hate golarion elves because of their alien, self-centered, xenophobic behavior. I have come to hate Golarion elves, as a GM, because of their insane, arc-obsessed architects! By the end of the 3rd installment we thought we were pretty smart with our handy compass... only to move on to Endless Night and find everything transformed to ovals and tear drops in Zinarkaykin. Damn, damn you to hell! J/K
Seriously, Paizo makes some of the most attractive maps in the industry. Now if they'd only send me a digital projector for the holidays.
That's funny, I just came back to post this link
http://paizo.com/store/paizo/gameMastery/maps/steelSqwireFlipMats/v5748btpy 83yxAnd as for projection, I came across this last night and now I'm hell-bent on making it happen for our game
http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tutorials/tabletopprojection/
And holy crap that compass is 30 bucks? Seems like a stick and string could accomplish the same thing.
And as for projection, I came across this last night and now I'm hell-bent on making it happen for our game
http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tutorials/tabletopprojection/
It is so worth it.
I think that they just need the grid lines on the map to line up with the lines on graph paper. making it easier to trace.Without knowing the scale of the grid you're using and the width of the printed lines on those pages, it would be near impossible for Paizo to do that. And what if you and I use different sized graph paper? Who should Paizo cater toward?
let me clear up my frustration a bit.
I can get 4 squares from the printed map to fit in 1 square on my graph paper no prob. but 2 to 3 squares to the left or right of the section I have lined up are no longer matching up....ie the printed map squares are now no longer lining up with my graph paper lines. the lines on my paper now start to bisect the squares on the printed map.
so it starts off all lined up nice nice like but then starts to become un-aligned the farther from the center as I get.
The graph paper im using, 1 square equals 1/4 inch. the full sheet is 8 and a 1/2 inches x 11 inches.
does any of this make sense?
now dont get ne rong, I love the maps, the looks the realistic feel and all but the grid is a bit off which is what erks me i guess.
its much easier for me to throw a peace of opaque graph paper over the map and trace out the map as we go.
yes the mats would be cheaper in the long run, but as I sit at a different table than my group and the fact I can not constantly get up and walk, lean over a table and such do to a back injury, paper is the easiest way for me to accomplish what I need to.
I have thought about just printing out the map and handing it to them, but then they know were to search for secret doors, traps, and know what area any given encounter would be, and I think that takes some of the suspence out of the game.
oh, and with the flip mats, I would still need to draw out the maps, which would actually be more frustrating and more time consuming as I would have to then figure the best place to start the map, count out every section, and hope I wouldnt need more than 1 mat. So how would that be easier than tracing out sections on the map as the party moves threw it?
I should also add that we are a group of old D&D and AD&D players that hold true to the old style of play where either the DM or a party member draws out the map as we go. most of the time its the DM drawing out the map and handing out to the party so they can see the map as it unfolds. so we draw sections at a time rather than the whole map.
its much easier for me to throw a peace of opaque graph paper over the map and trace out the map as we go.
-- snip --
I should also add that we are a group of old D&D and AD&D players that hold true to the old style of play where either the DM or a party member draws out the map as we go. most of the time its the DM drawing out the map and handing out to the party so they can see the map as it unfolds. so we draw sections at a time rather than the whole map.
Ah, well, that explains your problem more clearly.
Some thoughts:
1) the players map doesn't need to be 100% accurate; it can be frustrating when the players do their best to map it from the desctiption and just can't seem to get what the words are trying to convey, so I can see where the DM can get hooked into drawing it for them just to avoid that.
2) The players map doesn't need to look like a battle map. I have known groups that settled for using boxes to repesent rooms and lines between them for corridors.
3) Don't use graph paper. Just use a sheet of blank paper and note the room's dimensions ("20x30") or the length of the corridor outside it.
4) On the topic of the flip mats... you don't need to draw the whole dungeon on it, just the current room so you can run any encounter in it (if any). Erase that room when they move on, and draw the next one when they come to it.
I don't know if you have the capability of doing this, but if you can extract all images from a PDF, you get the maps without labels. From there, you can use a drawing program to "erase" secret doors, tunnels, etc. that you don't want your players to see.
Depending on how you want your players to see the map, cutting up the map would allow you to pass your players the rooms as they get to them, without letting them know exactly how big the area actually is.
ok this is just because......
If you have "Sins of the Saviors" non pdf the module its self, take a peace of graph paper you can see threw and place it over the map of the Ravemous Crypts and line up the square grid of the map with the graph paper, you will see what i mean by the map kind of being off. I dont mind having 4 squares of the map per 1 square of graph paper, but it makes it hard to get all the lines to match up as 2 squares on the map are just over the 1/4 inch of my graph paper.
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Someone say projection? I can say this from experience, it is definitely worth it.
Especially since I've since upgraded the laptop since those pictures were taken, one that can now accept an HDMI cable. Meaning that the resolution can go high enough so the projected image completely fills that white board.
It is so excellent.
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I don't remember the brand off-hand (I am at work now) but I got lucky enough to find an awesome projector off of craig's list. It only cost me $300, he threw in the HDMI cable for free, and it has 80% of it's bulb life still left. It puts out a resolution of 1360x768 or 1280x1024 or...something close to that with the HDMI cable (was maxed at 1024x768 with the S-video cable before, which it's using in those pictures) but looks gorgeous now.
With the laptop having a lot of RAM, MapTools, and this set up, our game time has sped up quite a bit since I don't have to draw and re-draw maps anymore. There are some dungeons that don't really look that great (the final one in LoF1 is kind of plain) and I try to make up for that with the occasional diversion (I tried to build the 3D LoF 1 dungeon overnight...11 hours later and still was short, though I got a few rooms complete. Ah well) but for the most part the projector setup is the way to go. :)
Edit: As for the mirror, yeah, it works quite well. It degrades the quality a TINY bit (I can barely tell the difference) but it compensates things in terms of picture quite well. It flips the picture upside-down when it detects the projector is hanging like it is, and then there is another switch to actually change it to compensate for the mirror's reflection. Looks beautiful, and yes, the mount I bought for the mirror is such that I can un-tighten a couple screws and slide the mirror out of the way if I wanted. I haven't done it yet since the way my living room is positioned means I'd need to futz around with the couch and a projector screen, but it's been talked about.
i just bought a lecture room quality projector for 20 dollars at an excess inventory auction at the univeristy of nebraska. there were 12 projectors there, and i could have gotten like 6 for 20 dollars a piece. in trying to figure out the projection to use it to map. i didnt think about the mirror. the game is played in the basement, so that would be pretty cool all the way around.
i also bought an old school school overhead projector, which im going to use for inititive. (3 dollars)
as far as the origninal posting: there is no good way, other than counting and drawing, or making a reference map before the game, on the 4 square per inch paper which you use, counting it out, and then using a thicker marker over the lines to make it easier to trace out at the game table.
good luck with your game.
i also bought a 32 inch tv for 5 dollars and a 21 inch computer monitor for 5 dollars. i dont think im going to use the tv to game, but the monitor maybe, for projecting monster pictures, npc pictures etc.
For about $30, you can go to hobby lobby and buy a projector that you can place over your map and project the image on a nearby wall (or, with some fancy-smancy work, you can suspend it over a table).
If I remember correctly, G4tv's AOTS reviewed a digital mini-projector for under $300. It has HDMI as well.
You could also go old school and have your players draw the map as you describe it. . .though that would only solve your headache, not theirs.
ok this is just because......
If you have "Sins of the Saviors" non pdf the module its self, take a peace of graph paper you can see threw and place it over the map of the Ravemous Crypts and line up the square grid of the map with the graph paper, you will see what i mean by the map kind of being off. I dont mind having 4 squares of the map per 1 square of graph paper, but it makes it hard to get all the lines to match up as 2 squares on the map are just over the 1/4 inch of my graph paper.
vikking, I know exactly what you are talking about--the Paizo maps often times actually skew over a distance, meaning they almost never line up exactly square all the way across a map. I'm not sure why this happens, but I've noticed it on multiple maps for the Savage Tide adventure path, and now for Legacy of Fire. The only way I've found to fix it is to extract the map into Photoshop and manually tweak it until the proportions are correct.
Someone say projection? I can say this from experience, it is definitely worth it.
Especially since I've since upgraded the laptop since those pictures were taken, one that can now accept an HDMI cable. Meaning that the resolution can go high enough so the projected image completely fills that white board.
It is so excellent.
Holy %$&#!
I didn't saw that...is AMAZING!
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Someone say projection? I can say this from experience, it is definitely worth it.
Especially since I've since upgraded the laptop since those pictures were taken, one that can now accept an HDMI cable. Meaning that the resolution can go high enough so the projected image completely fills that white board.
It is so excellent.
Holy %$&#!
I didn't saw that...is AMAZING!
Next time you're up here I'll run some Society games for ya on it. ;)
So I figured out the problem, but still have to figure a way to correct it.
I copied the map over to paint and started to draw a complete grid over the map and found that instead of a complete square grid, the map is a mix of square and rectangle.
I suspect it has to do with the compression done when trying to get the map to fit onto a single page. I’ll have to see if I have photoshop on my computer and see if I can figure out what to do to “tweak” the maps back to proper squares.
i think it would still be easier to predraw the map on blank graph paper with a thicker pen, then trace out room by room (as you have been doing) during the game. this way you can work out the map to fit your paper, make changes, then it fits exactly the way you want it to. i actually like the idea of giveing the characters a traced map, then let them work out the battle grid. they can keep track of where they are, i will plot things on my map.
i am going to give it a try. much faster for me.
and, i can tile out the fantastik fights. which would work way good. i like it, i like it alot.
One thing you might be able to do is to use the Incompetech graph paper generators. Since you can control the size of the cells, you could possibly create graph paper that's the right scale.
What I've started to do recently is create maps and graph paper that are the same size as a GameMastery flip-mat. If you create your maps so they fit conveniently on the board you use, it might be more convenient to run.
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So I figured out the problem, but still have to figure a way to correct it.
I copied the map over to paint and started to draw a complete grid over the map and found that instead of a complete square grid, the map is a mix of square and rectangle.I suspect it has to do with the compression done when trying to get the map to fit onto a single page. I’ll have to see if I have photoshop on my computer and see if I can figure out what to do to “tweak” the maps back to proper squares.
Actually this is the problem that I've had when converting the maps to online play. It seems that the squares on the Paizo maps aren't perfect squares. I don't know if this is translation error or what, but I have never been able to get my grids to match completely.