Ciao Paizo-
I just entered my phone number for international shipping, but was hoping if you could clarify what these new postal regulations are all about. Why does the U.S. postal service need my phone number? Can you point us to a document that explains these new regulations?
Thanks!
Senior Software Developer
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Mainly the reason for the change is that the USPS, via our electronic postage service, has begun refusing to print postage for more and more international packages. For awhile, no international shipments required phone numbers. Then sometime last year, First Class Mail International labels going to Canadian post office boxes started getting rejected if they didn't have phone numbers. Recently the system has been issuing more and more warnings for more addresses and delivery services.
The USPS International Mail Manual is supposed to be the final word on these sorts of things, but it's not clearly stated, and varies per country. For example:
A parcel may be addressed to a street address or to a post office box. A local telephone number for the addressee should be provided when the item is addressed to a street address and must be provided when the item is addressed to a post office box.
And
Express Mail shipments may have a street address or a post office box address. A local telephone number for the addressee MUST be provided for shipments addressed to a post office box address. A local telephone number for the addressee should be provided if possible for shipments to a street address.
As you can see, the stated rule for Canada is ambiguously written, doesn't even mention Priority Mail International or First Class Mail International, and it doesn't match our experience in printing postage anyway.
As far as I can tell, the USPS statement that items "should" include a phone number could turn into a "must" at any time, so rather than implement a couple hundred separate rules for every country in the world (and have to revise them as the rules as implemented in practice get changed when we're not looking), we're just requiring a phone number for everything.
What the USPS or customs or whomever actually does with that phone number, I honestly have no idea.
Should the number include the international dialling code? For example, should I enter my UK phone number as +44 followed by the number, or should I just give the number itself?
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Chief Technical Officer
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Should the number include the international dialling code? For example, should I enter my UK phone number as +44 followed by the number, or should I just give the number itself?
The post office hasn't provided any standards for us, and they seem willing to accept any input we provide. We assume that if they need to, they'll work out the country code themselves if it's missing, and not duplicate it if it's already there.
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Chief Technical Officer
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The USPS International Mail Manual is supposed to be the final word on these sorts of things, but it's not clearly stated, and varies per country.
And the Australia section of the Mail Manual doesn't even *mention* phone numbers, yet the postage system has already rejected some Australian addresses because they lacked a phone number.
I presume the phone number I've provided is just going to be held in Paizo and USPS systems - or is it possibly going to be printed on the label at any time?
I presume the phone number I've provided is just going to be held in Paizo and USPS systems - or is it possibly going to be printed on the label at any time?
This is what I'm worried about, too.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I am not paranoid by any streak, but I am not quite willing to spread that kind of information around without any idea how it is going to be used, either. So I've not added that info for now, and would appreciate if you could provide some additional information on what policies the postal service has. For example, how can you state "The number you provide will be used only to comply with postal regulations; you will not be added to any calling lists.", when the postal service may do just that for every number / name pair provided to them?
I presume the phone number I've provided is just going to be held in Paizo and USPS systems - or is it possibly going to be printed on the label at any time?
I thought about this some more since I initially posted - and I've gone back now and removed my phone number until I know more about how it is going to be used.
Thanks for the reply Gary and Vic. I appreciate it that Paizo has attempted to interpret the USPS regulations liberally in the past, and has only requested phone numbers when the number of rejections grew too high.
Like others, I am curious what the USPS is doing with the phone numbers. Any clarification would be great, but I also understand this might just not be your first priority, particularly since it sounds like junk numbers are likely to work.
Maybe someone has a pointer to a USPS privacy policy about international orders? All I can find is a large set of documents largely aimed at user's of their website.
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Chief Technical Officer
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This is what I'm worried about, too.
I presume the phone number I've provided is just going to be held in Paizo and USPS systems - or is it possibly going to be printed on the label at any time?
The phone number will be printed on the customs form. I'd expect most countries to have federal laws protecting personal information on packages in transit. For US Mail, you can read some of the regulations covering that in the USPS Administrative Support Manual (PDF), with sections 274.1 and 274.5 being particularly pertinent:
From 274.1: "The Postal Service must preserve and protect the security of all mail in its
custody from unauthorized opening, inspection, or reading of contents or
covers; tampering; delay; or other unauthorized acts. Any postal employee
committing or allowing any of these unauthorized acts is subject to
administrative discipline or criminal prosecution leading to fine,
imprisonment, or both."
From 274.5: "As a general rule, Postal Service employees may not disclose information or
data from the exterior of a piece of mail, disclose information about the
contents of a piece of mail, or disclose other information about a piece of
mail, within or outside the Postal Service. Only under the following conditions
may an employee disclose information while performing official duties..." This is followed by a list of reasons why such data might need to be dealt with in an official capacity, which generally fall into the categories of "helping your package get where it's going" and "complying with legal warrants and such."
The simplified version of the privacy statement for USPS customers is: "We only share your information in the following limited situations: to a congressional office on your behalf; to financial entities regarding financial transaction issues; to a USPS auditor; to entities, including law enforcement, as required by law or in legal proceedings; to customs agencies relating to outgoing international mail; to contractors and other entities to fulfill your product or service; or with your consent."
There's a long version of the short version, with links to more specifics.
It's not particularly the USPS I'm worried about, and I've got no major concern about the data protection angle (I'm confident USPS and the Royal Mail have got procedures and systems in place for that).
I simply don't trust the service provided by the Royal Mail. I regulalrly don't receive items I'm expecting in the post (including some Pasizo packages in the past) and these I believe have either been lost or stolen by Royal Mail employees. I can't therefore have confidence in them, or trust them fully, and I certainly don't want them having access to parcels addressed to me with my phone number written on them as well.
Is the customs form, including the phone number, part of the label used on the parcel?
I ship a little bit internationally when I sell on ebay, and I've noticed that many buyers there dislike giving out their phone number too. So I use mine -- and I've never had any problems with printing labels or with international customers receiving their books.
If international customers have concerns about listing a phone number, maybe Paizo could use the main Paizo phone number instead? It really seems like the US post office just wants somebody's phone number and will take whatever they are given.
Just a thought....
... I honestly have no idea.
Living in China here.
I have been called by the post office to pick up things that have been searched, about which Chinese customs has questions.
I call them the "mail cops".
By the way, you should check mailing labels used by Amazon. They usually print your phone number there too somewhere.
No where do they state you must provide your correct phone number! I regularly use one of my old phone numbers that I had about ten years ago. I'm sure there is someone out there that gets lots of calls for me from companies wanting to sell me crap.
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Chief Technical Officer
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If international customers have concerns about listing a phone number, maybe Paizo could use the main Paizo phone number instead? It really seems like the US post office just wants somebody's phone number and will take whatever they are given.
We will not knowingly provide incorrect information to them.
I can confirm that we do no validation, and they appear to take any number given to them. However, I would think that if you provide inaccurate information, it could possibly delay or prevent delivery of your package. (If it were me, I'd just provide a good phone number.)
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Chief Technical Officer
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Gary has examined all of the documents we have for our many shipping methods, and it turns out there's actually only one printed document that includes the phone number—it's the customs form required for all international shipments over 4 pounds. The phone number on that form is indeed visible on the outside of the package at shipping time. (It's actually an all-in-one form that serves as customs form, address, label, and postage; when it leaves our warehouse, it's a set of 8.5x11 sheets folded in half and inserted into a clear plastic document holder; by the time it gets to you, I think there are supposed to be fewer sheets.)
Note that other types of customs forms that are filed electronically include the phone number as part of the filing, but, with that one exception, the labels as printed do not include the phone number.
Vic-
Thanks for the pointers on how number is used. I'm completely ok that this is all quite unavoidable, and it sounds like the information isn't stored permanently by any of the mail organizations.
Cheers,
Twings
The USPS international mail manual generally makes reference to "a local phone number", which I presume means local to the package's destination address.
Just checking here (because sometimes the same words means different things in different countries)
When it says "Local phone number" do you need a "Land line" or is a mobile phone number alright. I added my mobile phone number then realised that may actually be a problem.
Cheers
BC
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Chief Technical Officer
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The USPS international mail manual generally makes reference to "a local phone number", which I presume means local to the package's destination address.Just checking here (because sometimes the same words means different things in different countries)
When it says "Local phone number" do you need a "Land line" or is a mobile phone number alright. I added my mobile phone number then realised that may actually be a problem.
Cheers
BC
They don't specify, but I think it's unlikely that a land line would be required.
I'm curious. Do all the people who feel unsafe about providing their phone numbers (which, as Vic pointed out, doesn't specify a landline number) also have unlisted numbers (i.e. secret numbers which doesn't show up in phone books etc.)?
If people for nefarious reasons wanted to get a hold of your phone number couldn't they just... you know, use your actual address printed right there on the package to look up you phone number?
I had no qualms about providing my phone number, although I did put down my mobile number since that's where it's easiest to get a hold of me. If some annoying salesperson should call me (hasn't happened in the past before - much more likely to happen on a land line, see above why), then I have this fantastic button with a red phone on it, called the off or "hang up" button. :-)
I'm curious. Do all the people who feel unsafe about providing their phone numbers (which, as Vic pointed out, doesn't specify a landline number) also have unlisted numbers (i.e. secret numbers which doesn't show up in phone books etc.)?
Yes. Our number is ex-directory and thus unlisted.
I'm curious. Do all the people who feel unsafe about providing their phone numbers (which, as Vic pointed out, doesn't specify a landline number) also have unlisted numbers (i.e. secret numbers which doesn't show up in phone books etc.)?Yes. Our number is ex-directory and thus unlisted.
Then that's a valid reason. But not everyone is in a witness protection program, so one's phonenumber isn't really all that secret. ;-)
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Then that's a valid reason. But not everyone is in a witness protection program, so one's phonenumber isn't really all that secret. ;-)I'm curious. Do all the people who feel unsafe about providing their phone numbers (which, as Vic pointed out, doesn't specify a landline number) also have unlisted numbers (i.e. secret numbers which doesn't show up in phone books etc.)?Yes. Our number is ex-directory and thus unlisted.
I imagine delivery guys and package handlers have better things to do anyway than to copy down someone's phone number and sell it or harass them themselves. And even if they had it in mind to do that, if there's a number on every package, chances are pretty slim they'd pick one out of all the thousands of boxes they get in a day. Unless there's some vast government conspiracy we don't know about, of course.