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Just a check on how useful you guys think the following item would be and if I am doing my math right.
Girdle of the Unbridled Barbarian:
Only Useable by Barbarians
3x day when the wearer enters a rage the girdle casts the following spells on the wearer:
- Enlarge (CL1)
- Bull's Strength (CL3
- Bear's Endurance (CL3)
The spells end when the wearer's rage ends. The girdle automatically activates the first 3x the barbarian enters rage each day.
I believe the multiple similar abilities thing comes into play?
Enlarge Bull's Strength Bear's Endurance
Costs: ( 1 * 1 * 2000 *.5 ) + ( 2 * 3 * 2000 ) + ( 2 * 3 * 2000 * .75 )
1000 + 12000 + 8000 = 21000
Items are useable 3x day = 21000 * 3/5 = 12600
Only useable by barbarians = 12600 * .7 = 8820
So 8820 market value or 4410 to create. Did I do anything wrong?
That is without trying to adjust for the spells duration being limited to the rage time and that the wearer doesn't control when it activates, and if you can't use your rage 3x day the extra uses are worthless.
I think the big advantage of this item is that it turns 3 rounds worth of actions into a free action. Normally an item like this would require the barbarian to spend 3 rounds buffing himself. That needs to be worked into the cost somehow. It's partially offset by activating only on rage, but I think the price needs to go up a bit more.
I believe its perfectly balanced. He's paying the cost for a continuous use item (2k X CL X SL), so it would not need activation.
The item's use is largely circumstantial. We don't judge item costs for what the character already can do (someone is able to provide infinite space? bag of holding is a common and cheap item), but if we were, becoming larger, stronger and tougher has a lot to do with rage.
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I would price this from the other direction. This is an item that does this:
Bonuses:
+6 str
-2 dex
+4 con
Size increaseLimitations:
Barbarians only
Only three encounters a daySo we have a 36000 effect, a 16000 effect, a -4000 penalty, and some sort of useful generic effect. They're all themed so there's no multipliers.
As for pricing the enlarge person effect, it's a 3k 3/use a day item in MIC, so 5K for unrestricted use of the belt sounds good.
So. The value of the belt before limitations sounds like it's about 53000 gold. Does it sound like it's about half as good as a Belt of Magnificence +4 (which is 100K for +4 to all stats)? Yeah, it pretty much does. More specialized, not quite as useful, but still has a niche.
So, we cut the price some. 53K times 3/5 is 31800. Barbarian-only and relatively short duration puts it at 25000, I'd say.
And that sounds about right for a "Every nice thing a barbarian would want in a magical item" belt.
*shrug*You could do it that way, however that doesn't seem to be the intended calculation. I believe that formula is intended to be used with items that give a constant( and inherent ) bonus to a stat rather than an item that casts a spell on you. While I am limiting the duration on the girdle, the way you are calculating it indicates that I could make a CL 20 girdle that cost the same amount of money, but allowed me to use the abilities for nearly 7x as long. That is why you calculate spells based on CL and SL rather than specifically what they do, as what they are capable of usually scales with CL.( and that is without using meta-magic feats to increase the length of time )
Enlarge Bull's Strength Bear's Endurance
Costs: ( 1 * 1 * 2000 *.5 ) + ( 2 * 3 * 2000 ) + ( 2 * 3 * 2000 * .75 )
1000 + 12000 + 8000 = 21000Only useable by barbarians = 12600 * .7 = 8820
Before I try to comment, could you please explain three of the parts I left above?
Why the .5 multiplier for Enlarge?
Why the .75 multiplier for Bear's Endurance?
Why the .7 multiplier for barbarians only?
Unless I really missed something, those shouldn't be there. Enlarge and Bear's Endurance is a 1 min / level spell, which according to the chart should mean that the spells are multiplied by 2.
I also don't see any "reason" (aka rule) behind reducing the cost for the item being used only by barbarians.
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Enlarge Bull's Strength Bear's Endurance
Costs: ( 1 * 1 * 2000 *.5 ) + ( 2 * 3 * 2000 ) + ( 2 * 3 * 2000 * .75 )
1000 + 12000 + 8000 = 21000Only useable by barbarians = 12600 * .7 = 8820
Before I try to comment, could you please explain three of the parts I left above?
Why the .5 multiplier for Enlarge?
Why the .75 multiplier for Bear's Endurance?
Why the .7 multiplier for barbarians only?Unless I really missed something, those shouldn't be there. Enlarge and Bear's Endurance is a 1 min / level spell, which according to the chart should mean that the spells are multiplied by 2.
I also don't see any "reason" (aka rule) behind reducing the cost for the item being used only by barbarians.
I was using the .5 and .75 might not be correct... It said that for multiple similar effects add full cost for the most expensive effect, .75 for the 2nd most expensive and .5 for everything else. It may not be intended to use them for this item.
The magic item creation rules state to reduce the cost by 10% if the item requires a certain skill to use or by 30% if the item requires a certain class or alignment to use.
You are, however, correct about the minutes/lvl multiplying the effect by 2. I had missed that part.
That increases the base cost to 17640 and the build cost to 8820. Substantially higher than I originally thought. Thanks for the catch.
*shrug*You could do it that way, however that doesn't seem to be the intended calculation. I believe that formula is intended to be used with items that give a constant( and inherent ) bonus to a stat rather than an item that casts a spell on you. While I am limiting the duration on the girdle, the way you are calculating it indicates that I could make a CL 20 girdle that cost the same amount of money, but allowed me to use the abilities for nearly 7x as long. That is why you calculate spells based on CL and SL rather than specifically what they do, as what they are capable of usually scales with CL.( and that is without using meta-magic feats to increase the length of time )
Actually, first you compare them to similar items. If you can't find a similar item, then you use the formulas. Otherwise, you get wizards creating Bracers of Armor +4 for 1k. (Mage Armor is a 1st level spell, so a continuous Mage armor costs 1k by the formulas.)
Ok, so let's try some math.....
Enlarge 1/day:
CL x SL x Use-Activated (worn) x spell level duration modifier
1 x 1 x 2000 x 2 = 4000
Bull's Strength
3 x 2 x 2000 x 2 = 24000
Bear's Endurance
3 x 2 x 2000 x 2 = 24000
Multiple Different Abilities on single item (one enhances strength, one does constitution, one does size, those are different to me):
Multiple lower item cost by 1.5
We'll say Bull's Strength is the highest one, so...
Enlarge = 4000 x 1.5 = 6000
Bear's Endurance = 24000 x 1.5 = 36000
Current total: 66000
3/day reduction:
5/3 = 1.66
66000 / 1.66 = 39759
Now, reduce the cost by 30% since only barbarians can use it:
39.759 x .7 = 27831
So, to perhaps make math easier, I'd reduce the cost down to 27,000 even, or 13,500 to make.
I think Shalandar has it pretty close, as far as the calculations.
I do think the Barbarian only discount is reasonable (which is rare) - it requires Rage, and also only operates during that time. The latter isn't a big penalty for Barbarians, but it strongly does limit it to them.
However, items with multiple abilities are generally either constant, or require activation (and not all at the same time).
I'd consider this more of an activation case (particularly since most of the abilities should be priced differently if they were constant), which makes them *better* than quickened.
[/RAW] Calculating item costs off quickened spell prices gets a bit silly, but I'd apply a solid x2 modifier minimum, for upwards of 50K. This is of course where DM judgement comes in.
Edit: Alternate pricing, permanent +4 Str, +4 Con, and enlarge permanently (or close enough) OR quickened enlarge.
16000 + 24000 + Lesser(2000*1*1*2(duration)*1.5=6000 | 5*9*1800*3/5*1.5 = 73000) = 46000 * .7 (Barb) = 32200
Somewhere between 30k and 50k.
I'm picturing a Barb with Mighty Rage using this... +14 Str, +12 Con... That's over 100 hp that disappear at end of rage...
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Girdle of the Unbridled Barbarian:
Only Useable by Barbarians
3x day when the wearer enters a rage the girdle casts the following spells on the wearer:
- Enlarge (CL1)
- Bull's Strength (CL3
- Bear's Endurance (CL3)
Items are priced by power. A "Barbarian usable only" item that is powerful in the hands of a Barbarian gain no price discount. The 30% cost reduction is for selling items (not making them.) So you buy at normal price and sell at 30% off the normal 50% sell price.
The price of this item would be astronomical for several reasons:
1) each of those 3 effects will need to be quickened effects.
2) Enlarge Person is worth more than the spell level indicates (roughly 12,000 gp for 3/day when using a Standard to activate)
3) The two stat modifiers should be priced normally (no discount) just like a 2 stat Physical boosting item.
Sounds like a 100,000 gp or more item (without doing any math.)
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Girdle of the Unbridled Barbarian:
Only Useable by Barbarians
3x day when the wearer enters a rage the girdle casts the following spells on the wearer:
- Enlarge (CL1)
- Bull's Strength (CL3
- Bear's Endurance (CL3)Items are priced by power. A "Barbarian usable only" item that is powerful in the hands of a Barbarian gain no price discount. The 30% cost reduction is for selling items (not making them.) So you buy at normal price and sell at 30% off the normal 50% sell price.
The price of this item would be astronomical for several reasons:
1) each of those 3 effects will need to be quickened effects.
2) Enlarge Person is worth more than the spell level indicates (roughly 12,000 gp for 3/day when using a Standard to activate)
3) The two stat modifiers should be priced normally (no discount) just like a 2 stat Physical boosting item.Sounds like a 100,000 gp or more item (without doing any math.)
First, I don't see why they would need to be quickened effects.
That seems a bit expensive. I could get a +3 spiked chain and a Belt of Mighty Constitution + 6 for 36000. Or a +3 spiked chain of speed and the belt for 90,000.
First, I don't see why they would need to be quickened effects.
I agree that I don't believe the effects need to be quickened. The effects are paid for with the 2k x CL x SL x spell duration modifier.
As far as using the cost for stat modification, that doesn't seem to be what the person wants. Since in this case, if he were trying to lift something heavy or bash down a door, he would have to rage to get the effects of bull strength/bear's endurance.
Now, I do kind of agree that enlarge person is probably "more expensive" than a first level spell, but I would still stick by my cost of around 27k.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I agree that I don't believe the effects need to be quickened. The effects are paid for with the 2k x CL x SL x spell duration modifier.
As far as using the cost for stat modification, that doesn't seem to be what the person wants.
There are two rules of item creation before you even get to 2k x CL x SL.
Rule #1 is price like similar items.
Rule #2 is price equal to dissimilar items of similar power.
The effects need to be quickened because they are activated as a free action or even 1 per round for 3 rounds. Either way they activate without spending an action on the PC. Now granted, maybe quicken is too much of a cost, but they absolutely cost more than normal prices just for the speed regardless of the effect being activated.
They should cost the stat modification cost, because they will be available most of the day (during Rages) and you rarely have 4 or more combats in a day. So without costing the same (or maybe 10% off) you are giving them the benefit of the effects without them paying the "fair price" (see rule #1) of the effect.
In short, this item is ridiculous at 27k. You would never consider another item instead of this item.
Think about it this way. Say you are a grappler (or anyone who would be very well served by a ring of freedom of movement.) Would you ever consider the RoFoM over this item? Even if they cost the same?
If you set the level of the enlarge to be level 1 the effect should only last 1 round.
For this to work through the duration of a rage (which could be a dozen rounds or more) you should bump the caster level of all spells to at least 5.
Costs: ( 1 * 5 * 2000 *.5 ) + ( 2 * 5 * 2000 ) + ( 2 * 5 * 2000 * .75 ) = 5,000 + 20,000 + 15,000
40K
Only usable 3 times
40K x 3/5 = 24k
The class restriction cost reduction has always left a bad taste in my mouth and I would not allow it. How many non-barbarians gain rage? It makes no sense.
Does it come with a curse that turns the wearer's skin green when it operates? Because honestly, it seems to be begging for that.
It should also be purple, even if there's no conceivable reason why a barbarian would wear a purple belt.
Costs: ( 1 * 5 * 2000 *.5 ) + ( 2 * 5 * 2000 ) + ( 2 * 5 * 2000 * .75 ) = 5,000 + 20,000 + 15,000
Reducing the cost of an additional spell on an item is ONLY for staffs. If you look at the book, adding another ability to an item actually INCREASES the cost unless it is directly related to the original ability.
Enhancement to Str
Enhancement to Con
Size enhancement
These are NOT related. That means, you INCREASE the cost not decrease it.
A huge part of pricing an item is to look at its utility. At 1gp, this item would be a no-brainer for every 1st-level barb to pick up. At 100,000gp it's something nobody would pick. Why? Because by the time you've got 100,000gp to throw at a single item, you've long since bought an item that has a +4 enhancement bonus to Str and Con, which don't stack with this item. All you've got left is the enlarging ability. So again, by the time you can pay 100,000gp are you really going to spend that kind of coin on an item that merely enlarges you while you rage? No.
Now we know 1gp is too low and 100,000gp is too high.
Applying the standard formulas is a fine approach, but keeping in mind the intended audience is crucial. At 10,000gp we're looking at something a 6th level (or 7th) character might get their hands on if they spend wisely. Do you want your 6th level barbarian player to have one of these? Probably not since they should probably only have one or two +2 stat boosters and a +1 weapon or so. This is likely too much at that level. At 50,000gp you're looking at 11th level or so. By then the utility has dropped significantly for this player. If they put all their money into this and skip other stat boosters, it's probably too conditional and weak.
So, in my opinion, depending on the power level of a given campaign, somewhere in the 15,000gp range is probably reasonable. Puts it in the hands of 7th or 8th level barbarians who would benefit from it but keeps it out of the lower levels where it's broken while not pricing it so high it's useless.
That's my common-sense answer. This isn't the right item to use formula on.
I can't really get my head around a pricing structure for this, because there is not a finite number of rounds this item lasts for, and I think that is the biggest issue in trying to assess the price. I would recommend affixing a finite number of rounds to the use (which would help to assess the ultimate caster level as well).
To keep this item at a reasonable cost, I would suggest that duration of the effects should last for is 10 rounds (1/3 of the normal spell durations), per use of the item. Also, I do not see why this item should be tied into the barbarian's rage ability -- or why its activation should be involuntary (Well, I think it was tied into the rage ability to help keep the cost down, but I don't think the rules work that way as someone else has already pointed out.)
So now here is what you have (note that I am bad at naming magic items):
Girdle of the Enlarged Warrior
Aura: faint transmutation; CL 3rd
Slot: waist; Price 18,000 gp; Weight 1 lb.
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DESCRIPTION
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This large, thick leather girdle is stitched with heavy black cord. Upon speaking a command word as a free action, this girdle bestows the wearer with the effects of Bear's Endurance, Bull Strength and Enlarge Person, for 1 minute. This item is usable 3 times per day.
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CONSTRUCTION
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Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, Bear's Endurance, Bull Strength, Enlarge Person, Cost 9,000 gp
Duration Price Modifications:
- Duration of 3 minutes = 3,6000 gp
- Duration of 3 rounds = 6,000 gp