I think skill based characters like the rogue was harder to multi-class in 3.x.
I played a rogue / fighter / dervish. I sat down, used Microsoft excel and calculated at what level I should pick which class. One of the reasons where the skills. I wanted to max out some of the most important rogue skills and I didn't want to waste my fighter skills or my dervish skills on cross class skills because it was too expensive. Skills like tumble, Search, spot, move silently and disable device where importat to me. Especially tumble, Search and disable device.
For example I never maxed out the jump skill or climb skill as a rogue.
When I hit level 5 I picked a level fighter and added ranks in jump and climb. Getting 5 ranks in jump ment I got +2 to tumble so I didn't have to max out tumble that level. If I knew the next level was Dervish I didn't add ranks in tumble since Dervice had tumble as a class skill, etc.
Now you don't have to worry about cross class skills. It makes it so much easier. A fighter/rogue with 14 it, will still be able to add ranks in 4 'rogue skills' even if he picks a level figher. So he can max out perception, stealth, disable device and acrobatics.
I'll take unusual and intriguing multi-class combos over single classes any day... because I enjoy the versatility and odd mixes.
There's nothing versatile or intriguing about being the guy who dies every time he takes a hit or can't do anything in a fight or has all his spells resisted or who can't make skill DCs.
I've never created a multi-classer who is that ineffective. Your experience may be different.
It's not important that you play 100% the most efficient character, no. It is important that you play a character who can usefully contribute to level-appropriate challenges, and a multiclass combination (or single-classed character!) that doesn't do that is no fun to play at all, when you are rolling dice.
I agree it is no fun playing a useless character. But I've never had a multi-classer that doesn't pull his/her own weight. It could be a function of the campaigns I run in. I do small groups and most of us play multi-classes to ensure we have all bases covered. So you could argue we all have the same 'handicap' and therefore our power levels are equivalent. It could also be that I rarely take more than 2 classes... so I don't do the 6 classes @ Lv3 smorgasbord you see from time to time. Again, your experience may vary.
That's the problem though. I am all for interesting and intrigueing characters, but with 3E multiclassing, some option, regardless on how cool they sound, are just bad. When I say bad, I mean ineffective.
Hey Beckett, you'll get no argument from me on that. :) I didn't say ALL multi-classes are viable or that all multi-classes that lead to some of the funky Prestige classes work well. There are definitely some disastrous combos out there - particularly when you combine lackluster classes together. My only point was to answer the OP's question about whether multi-classing, in general, is "worth it". My answer is "yes, it can be."
I'll take unusual and intriguing multi-class combos over single classes any day... because I enjoy the versatility and odd mixes.
There's nothing versatile or intriguing about being the guy who dies every time he takes a hit or can't do anything in a fight or has all his spells resisted or who can't make skill DCs.
I've never created a multi-classer who is that ineffective. Your experience may be different.
It's not important that you play 100% the most efficient character, no. It is important that you play a character who can usefully contribute to level-appropriate challenges, and a multiclass combination (or single-classed character!) that doesn't do that is no fun to play at all, when you are rolling dice.I agree it is no fun playing a useless character. But I've never had a multi-classer that doesn't pull his/her own weight. It could be a function of the campaigns I run in. I do small groups and most of us play multi-classes to ensure we have all bases covered. So you could argue we all have the same 'handicap' and therefore our power levels are equivalent. It could also be that I rarely take more than 2 classes... so I don't do the 6 classes @ Lv3 smorgasbord you see from time to time. Again, your experience may vary.
I agree on all your posts. saying a multi-classed character can't pull his/her own weight is the same as saying high level wizards suck.
Yes a high level wizard will suck if they are buildt stupid. A high level wizard with 14 it will suck. So will 9 classes @ Lv1 smorgasbord.Stupid builds are always gonna be a problem.
A level 8 fighter and lvl 4 rogue sure can be effective and a fighter/bard or Paladin/bard can also be fun and effective.
both also have the same physical stats (Str, Dex, Con)No they don't, the theurge can't dump int or cha.
But as long as you're talking about "times per day," you're still not getting it.
On top of this, they'd spend one round casting a buff to allow them to leave melee classes completely in the dust, then go ahead and smash faces.
Your theurgezilla stands there at the start of the fight casting buffs on himself for four rounds. The party shouldn't even give him any loot, he just stood there playing with himself.
The mystic theurge can afford to make Cha a semi-dump stat (because of how Channel Energy is curtailed by not advancing as a cleric); maybe not the the point of dropping below 10, but it can definitely be lower than a straight cleric. Likewise, the mystic theurge can afford to have a Wis that's a point lower than the straight cleric.
"Outshined the fighter for the entire day?" Until the cleric gains righteous might, the best that divine favor/divine power allows is to equal the fighter (remember, the cleric is giving up +2 BAB on the fighter at 5th-8th, +3 at 9th-12th, +4 at 13th-16th, etc.). Righteous might can only be cast a few times per day (and the need to decide between air walk, divine power, freedom of movement, and greater magic weapon when preparing 4th level spell slots limits the number of castings of divine power), so the best that can be said about CoDzilla is that the cleric can outshine the fighter some of the time and equal the rest of the time, which is still plenty.
You are still ignoring the fact that 1 min/level spells are cast before combat, not during. They are designed to be cast while preparing for a fight, instead of after initiative is rolled. Before combat even starts (i.e., the door is kicked down/initiative is rolled), the mystic theurge casts their 1 min/level buffs (as long as the party is not surprised; the straight cleric is admittedly better in surprise situations). In combat (i.e., at the start of combat), the mystic theurge casts haste and divine favor/divine power, which is the same economy of actions as a cleric casting divine favor/divine power and righteous might.
The main difference between a straight cleric CoDzilla and a mystic theurge CoDzilla is the mystic theurge needs to plan better, instead of just "winging it."
wow.. so not on attack and damage rolls just on skill checks.. that is.. terrible :) Yes I was referring to a +6 str item.[...] So now Codzilla can have a +6 enhancement bonus to STR, +4 size bonus to str, +6 luck bonus to str, +3hit/dam and Bozilla with changes to weapon size can just skip righteous might and prep something else in those slots[...]What is Bozilla?
And Codzilla does not get +6 luck bonus to str. They get luck bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
Belt of physical perfection (+6), divine power, and righteous might is still a pretty nasty combination: +10 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, up to +6 (at CL 18) on attack rolls and damage rolls (on top of normal bonuses from Str/Dex), large size. The thing to keep in mind is that a cleric 18 has a BAB of +13 vs. a fighter with a BAB of +18; plus, the fighter has all sorts of feats and Weapon Training, so a fighter with the same belt and a potion of enlarge person can probably be just about as effective (+8 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, large size; the fighter probably has a higher base Str and Dex, also).
Dragonchess, no offense man, but I think the Man in Black clearly has you beat.
When he starts backing up his assertions, perhaps...
So far, he seems to base his whole argument against the mystic theurge on casting 1 min/level buffs during combat (which I have repeatedly debunked) and an inflated sense of the effectiveness of divine power (which really only levels the battlefield between the cleric and the fighter).
I guess the guy in my class that drove his motorcycle into a telephone pole and split his head in two breaking his neck and back didn't know about that rule.
Deflection attempt failed.Falling off a motorcycle moving at 55 mph is dangerous and can result in broken bones, severe bleeding, amputation, or even death. In game terms, operating a vehicle is a skill. By your interpretation, the only people who would be able to operate a motorcycle at 55 mph without making a skill check every 6 seconds...
Without providing the details of the accident, this says nothing. It's just another deflection attempt (an "appeal to emotion"). It's a shame that that happened to someone in your class, but if you can't argue against the premise regarding taking 10, bringing up a single instance (with no details; out of literally millions) doesn't disprove it.
I also think it's in poor taste to bring up a tragic real world event in an attempt to "win" an argument over game mechanics that you are losing on logic.
They are designed to be cast while preparing for a fight, instead of after initiative is rolled.At which point casters win every fight where they are allowed to prepare like this, even if they're bards or adepts.
I completely understand that this is what you are saying and I've understood it the entire time. I've denied that it is practical or that it matters or that being better at it is terribly useful.
"I can't win the argument without redefining it, so I declare it meaningless."
Thank you for playing.
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"I can't win the argument without redefining it, so I declare it meaningless."Thank you for playing.
I believe his argument is (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that you've declared the Mystic Theurge "good" at something that all casters (including even the worst of casters) are good at. That is, the situation where they have several rounds to cast spells before immediately entering combat. If you have several rounds to cast short term buffs every fight, then yes, the Mystic Theurge is as good as the other casters and can probably do it slightly longer than the party can continue on that day.
But also keep in mind that any party willing to pay what you've claimed your Mystic Theurge can pay per fight can do the same thing he can *and* be a useful contribution to the party. And by any party I'm obviously excluding the all non-caster, no-UMD having partys. I thought I'd point that out though since other obvious points seemed to have been missed along the way in this thread.
Thanks,
JP
To go back to the OP's original question, as you can see from the responses in this thread, the community is divided on whether multi-classing is worth it.
I believe that it will depend on your play style and preferences.
Personally, I think multi-classing can be worth it.
They are designed to be cast while preparing for a fight, instead of after initiative is rolled.At which point casters win every fight where they are allowed to prepare like this, even if they're bards or adepts.
I completely understand that this is what you are saying and I've understood it the entire time. I've denied that it is practical or that it matters or that being better at it is terribly useful.
Someone implied that driving a motorcycle isn't dangerous if you know what you're doing. I disproved it.
Belt of physical perfection (+6), divine power, and righteous might is still a pretty nasty combination: +10 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, up to +6 (at CL 18) on attack rolls and damage rolls (on top of normal bonuses from Str/Dex), large size. The thing to keep in mind is that a cleric 18 has a BAB of +13 vs. a fighter with a BAB of +18; plus, the fighter has all sorts of feats and Weapon Training, so a fighter with the same belt and a potion of enlarge person can probably be just about as effective (+8 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, large size; the fighter probably has a higher base Str and Dex, also).wow.. so not on attack and damage rolls just on skill checks.. that is.. terrible :) Yes I was referring to a +6 str item.[...] So now Codzilla can have a +6 enhancement bonus to STR, +4 size bonus to str, +6 luck bonus to str, +3hit/dam and Bozilla with changes to weapon size can just skip righteous might and prep something else in those slots[...]What is Bozilla?
And Codzilla does not get +6 luck bonus to str. They get luck bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
Divine power > weapon training
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Even under those conditions and with all the GP needed for wands and scrolls, I honestly think any straight caster (maybe not the Bard?) would still be better served than multiclassing. For their spells, the duration and additional level based affects are generally better than the extra different spells, and for scrolls and wands, one level of wizard (if your a cleric) does pretty much the same thing, but you are not taking the greater BaB, Saves, and HP hit. Depending on the classes, possibly also skills and feats. But also the few class features. In my experience, it just isn't worth it, and is also a lot harder just to survive until the level you can actually get into MT, that the lack of later insentive at that point makes me want to just kill the character off.
Divine power > weapon trainingBelt of physical perfection (+6), divine power, and righteous might is still a pretty nasty combination: +10 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, up to +6 (at CL 18) on attack rolls and damage rolls (on top of normal bonuses from Str/Dex), large size. The thing to keep in mind is that a cleric 18 has a BAB of +13 vs. a fighter with a BAB of +18; plus, the fighter has all sorts of feats and Weapon Training, so a fighter with the same belt and a potion of enlarge person can probably be just about as effective (+8 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, large size; the fighter probably has a higher base Str and Dex, also).wow.. so not on attack and damage rolls just on skill checks.. that is.. terrible :) Yes I was referring to a +6 str item.[...] So now Codzilla can have a +6 enhancement bonus to STR, +4 size bonus to str, +6 luck bonus to str, +3hit/dam and Bozilla with changes to weapon size can just skip righteous might and prep something else in those slots[...]What is Bozilla?
And Codzilla does not get +6 luck bonus to str. They get luck bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
Perhaps. But the cleric starts far enough behind the fighter that divine power simply gets the cleric close to the fighter's combat ability. Consider that at its best (18th level) divine power gives +6 on attack and damage rolls; that's just enough, with Weapon Focus, to put the cleric's attack bonus (+13+6+1=+20) on par with an equal level fighter that has Greater Weapon Focus (+18+2=+20); the fighter also gets to add up to +4 on top of that from Weapon Training (+20+4=+24). Similarly, the +6 damage from divine power lags behind the fighter with Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Training (+4+4=+8).
Someone implied that driving a motorcycle isn't dangerous if you know what you're doing. I disproved it.
No, I flat out stated that it was dangerous. What I specifically said is that if you are careful, follow the traffic laws, keep track of your surroundings, and don't do something stupid ("take 10"), the risk of injury is extremely low (not worth quantifying in game terms; something on the order of a possible accident once every ten years, IIRC). The point you ignore is that this dangerous activity, modeled in game terms, has people "taking 10" on a constant basis, which you state is impossible unless they they have at least a +9 skill modifier (assuming a basic DC 10 check), simply because they are at risk of injury.
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Ooh I did play a MT once. Or rather, I wanted to play one.
Our DM ran a homebrew D&D campaign. He was rather new to 3ed rules, and so was I.
Since we had only 3 people, with one guy as a paladin and the other one as the psywarrior, I noticed that we are short on good old casting. So I went ahead and made a diviner/cleric with intention of going MT.
I quickly noticed how the PW leaves me behind in terms of combat power. So I gave up on being a powerhouse, and opted to play an utility character casting animated ropes and clw. I ran around at lvl 8 with AC of 12 and some funny amount of hit points, luckily the DM allowed "fate points" which you could use to save yourself from dying. Needlessly to say, I used a lot of those.
At lvl 8 the magic item availability was so great that I had a +1 ring of protection, some random silly MIC item and a wand of magic missile.
When I got to the point where I could go Mystic Theurge, the DM refused. He said that MT are overpowered, and that having caster level of both classes going up is clearly broken. So he told me that I can go MT, but at every level I have to alternate between having a Wizard level and Cleric level. I said "screw it", and went full on Cleric instead. Gnashing my teeth that I am 4 levels behind.
The whole campaign took a shot in the head when our party (lvl 10, me being Wiz 4/Clr 6), plus some random lvl 3 NPC mooks took on a CR 15 Fire Giant with sorcerer levels and a ton of magic items. You can imagine what happened.
Later on I asked the DM how on earth could he unleash a CR 15 monster on us, and he replied, "well you guys had CR 30 together, so I figured out it's gonna be easy...".
But I did learn a great deal about how D&D works, oh yes I did :)
"I can't win the argument without redefining it, so I declare it meaningless."Thank you for playing.
I believe his argument is (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that you've declared the Mystic Theurge "good" at something that all casters (including even the worst of casters) are good at. That is, the situation where they have several rounds to cast spells before immediately entering combat. If you have several rounds to cast short term buffs every fight, then yes, the Mystic Theurge is as good as the other casters and can probably do it slightly longer than the party can continue on that day.
But also keep in mind that any party willing to pay what you've claimed your Mystic Theurge can pay per fight can do the same thing he can *and* be a useful contribution to the party. And by any party I'm obviously excluding the all non-caster, no-UMD having partys. I thought I'd point that out though since other obvious points seemed to have been missed along the way in this thread.
CoDzilla was never just about divine power and the long-term buffs. Seriously, all divine power does is is get you to the point where you can fight almost as well as a fighter (and the long-term buffs aren't tremendously overpowering, either, as long as the fighter gets level-appropriate gear). Even stacking righteous might on top of divine power, the cleric isn't that much more powerful than an equal level fighter who drinks a potion of enlarge person.
Where CoDzilla really gets its power is from the ability to stack long-term buffs and short-term buffs like other casters, and then cast divine power and righteous might in combat. It's in the stacking of long-term and short term buffs that the mystic theurge has an advantage, because their access to two different spell lists allows them to find more spells with effects that stack. The caster level issue can be mitigated (in one class) by the use of the Magical Knack feat (the +2 caster level means the mystic theurge is only one caster level behind in that class, instead of three); if you want the mystic theurge to be able to CoDzilla, then cleric is the obvious choice for the Magical Knack.
Finally, who said the party was paying for the mystic theurge to buff him/herself? If the mystic theurge uses scrolls of shield (scribe cost 12 gp, 5 sp per minute) from 8th-11th level, instead of the +1 animated heavy wooden shield (market price 9,157 gp) that the cleric uses for the same AC bonus (with a casting of magic vestment), that frees up plenty of funds for other scrolls. The mystic theurge could ask for (and the rest of the party might even agree) the group to split the cost of the scrolls of haste, since the entire party benefits from those. A mystic theurge could also take the Craft Wand feat and ask for the group to split the cost of wands of cure light wounds (used to heal all party members), which many parties do, and wands of various buff spells (to be cast on all party members before combat), which increases the combat ability of the entire party.
Even under those conditions and with all the GP needed for wands and scrolls, I honestly think any straight caster (maybe not the Bard?) would still be better served than multiclassing. For their spells, the duration and additional level based affects are generally better than the extra different spells, and for scrolls and wands, one level of wizard (if your a cleric) does pretty much the same thing, but you are not taking the greater BaB, Saves, and HP hit. Depending on the classes, possibly also skills and feats. But also the few class features. In my experience, it just isn't worth it, and is also a lot harder just to survive until the level you can actually get into MT, that the lack of later insentive at that point makes me want to just kill the character off.
Usually, my advancement plan for mystic theurge is to take 3 levels of cleric, then multiclass into wizard for 3 levels. This gives you a chance to pick up 2nd level cleric spells and some useful gear first. With Scribe Scroll for free as a wizard 1, you should be able to afford to create enough scrolls of cleric and wizard spells to make yourself useful in most situations until you hit cleric 3/wizard 3/mystic theurge 2; at this point, you can take heroism as one of your 3rd level wizard spells and start playing the CoDzilla game (as I described above), if you wish.
Age of Worms spoiler below
In "The Library of Last Resort" (Dungeon #132), I rebuilt Darl Quethos from a cleric (Vecna) 18 into a cleric (Vecna) 3/conjurer (Rapid Summoning variant) 3/mystic theurge 8/thaumaturgist 4 and made him even nastier if he got into a physical fight. With his allies (including a rebuilt Malhazar without aristocrat levels as Darl's Improved Ally from his thaumaturgist ability) and the ability to cast Quickened summon monster spells from his conjurer slots (including summon monster VI using Divine Metamagic) while he blasted the party with both cleric and wizard spells (Practiced Spellcaster in both, for CL 18 as a cleric and CL 15 as a conjurer), he didn't necessarily need to get into a physical fight.
I also rebuilt The Faceless One in "The Three Faces of Evil" (Dungeon #125) as a simulacrum of Darl when he was a conjurer 13, just prior to embarking on a series of Rebuild Quests (Player's Handbook II). This was Darl's method of keeping track of the Ebon Triad (fools, in his opinion, but potentially dangerous fools; also, they had access to certain secret lore that was difficult to obtain otherwise). As part of this reworking, I changed Darl's clothing preferences to match The Faceless One (including the leather mask; an enchanted item, in Darl's case).
Unfortunately, the campaign broke up (from players moving away) before I got a chance to use either of them. Just the thought of the PCs spending all of that time wondering about The Faceless One, before springing Darl on them in the vision at the end of "The Prince of Redhand," makes me smile (my evil GM smile) over their possible reactions.
The caster level issue can be mitigated (in one class) by the use of the Magical Knack feat
Correction: Magical Knack is a trait, not a feat.
Basically, DCP is assuming that there's some value in being able to stand around casting scrolls on yourself, and that this is worth two feats, some traits (whatever those are), and three levels, instead of just using UMD.
I would suggest taking his advice with a very large grain of salt.
<shrug>
It's just a playing style. I never stated it's the "one true way," but rather a way to get certain results within the RAW.
Enchanted armor gives more of an AC benefit (both on a per cost and a maximum possible basis) than bracers or robes. Spending a feat or two to help maximize your AC while still allowing you to cast arcane spells without a chance of failure is a trade-off; acceptable for some, unacceptable for others, and vital to a character that wants to cast and fight.
Casting scrolls you prepare yourself (at 1/2 market price) doesn't require Use Magic Device checks (which require some pretty hefty DCs, so success isn't necessarily a given*). It's a relatively inexpensive way to expand the number and type of spells you can cast per day (another trade-off; increased versatility and spell uses for less money invested in permanent items).
*-especially since, per PF RPG pg. 109, "You cannot take 10 with this skill. You can't aid another on Use Magic Device checks. Only the user of the item may attempt such a check." Let us know at what level your cleric has a +18 total on Use Magical Device checks, so that he has a 95% success chance on the easiest (DC 20) uses of the skill.
Basically, DCP is assuming that there's some value in being able to stand around casting scrolls on yourself, and that this is worth two feats, some traits (whatever those are), and three levels, instead of just using UMD.
I would suggest taking his advice with a very large grain of salt.
+1.
Basically every suggestion he makes boils down to the use of a large number of consumable magic items. Such stands in start contrast to the argument that has been made about how the MT has such awesome staying power compared to a regular caster (which isn't true, as anyone with basic math skills should realize).
Perhaps. But the cleric starts far enough behind the fighter that divine power simply gets the cleric close to the fighter's combat ability. Consider that at its best (18th level) divine power gives +6 on attack and damage rolls; that's just enough, with Weapon Focus, to put the cleric's attack bonus (+13+6+1=+20) on par with an equal level fighter that has Greater Weapon Focus (+18+2=+20); the fighter also gets to add up to +4 on top of that from Weapon Training (+20+4=+24). Similarly, the +6 damage from divine power lags behind the fighter with Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Training (+4+4=+8).Divine power > weapon trainingBelt of physical perfection (+6), divine power, and righteous might is still a pretty nasty combination: +10 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, up to +6 (at CL 18) on attack rolls and damage rolls (on top of normal bonuses from Str/Dex), large size. The thing to keep in mind is that a cleric 18 has a BAB of +13 vs. a fighter with a BAB of +18; plus, the fighter has all sorts of feats and Weapon Training, so a fighter with the same belt and a potion of enlarge person can probably be just about as effective (+8 Str, +4 Dex, +6 Con, large size; the fighter probably has a higher base Str and Dex, also).wow.. so not on attack and damage rolls just on skill checks.. that is.. terrible :) Yes I was referring to a +6 str item.[...] So now Codzilla can have a +6 enhancement bonus to STR, +4 size bonus to str, +6 luck bonus to str, +3hit/dam and Bozilla with changes to weapon size can just skip righteous might and prep something else in those slots[...]What is Bozilla?
And Codzilla does not get +6 luck bonus to str. They get luck bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
You are incorrect on the power level of a cleric. He gets up in the morning, straps on his armor his buckler and gets out his bow. He pops out 2 extended magic vestments and an extended greater magic weapon and now his mundane armor buckler and weapon have the bonuses of about max what a character of that level should find. He invests that enchantment money in useful items. When he gets in a fight He casts divine power and gives himself a luck bonus to hit and damage that stacks with his enhancement bonus. Add righteous might and now he has DR and natural armor added as well, and here's the deal, when the cleric casts divine power on himself, he enhances HIMSELF. The fighter has only one type of weapon, when the cleric switches from ranged to melee, he still has the benefit. Versatility is why the cleric is so powerful, not dropping everything into critical feats and improved critical kukri and blinding everything you come across.
Edit: oops I forgot he can greater magic weapon his +1 defending armor spikes when he gets up.
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Basically, DCP is assuming that there's some value in being able to stand around casting scrolls on yourself, and that this is worth two feats, some traits (whatever those are), and three levels, instead of just using UMD.
I would suggest taking his advice with a very large grain of salt.
+1.
Basically every suggestion he makes boils down to the use of a large number of consumable magic items. Such stands in start contrast to the argument that has been made about how the MT has such awesome staying power compared to a regular caster (which isn't true, as anyone with basic math skills should realize).
Come on guys, no need to be mean here.
Even though Pathfinder made the classes better, I still get really bored with idle time so I usually multi-class to always keep moving. With the correct multi-classing and if you know your character, you can give a solo class a run for their money or be involved with everything the adventure has to offer.
Rarely do I play a solo class character and out of those solo characters I have played, I only have enjoyed one which had some of the lowest stat rolls I have ever made - go figure. A Female Half-Elven Ranger in the Forgotten Realms with beginning ties with the Harpers - basically she was in recruiting status.
I have a current Pathfinder design which may change with the Epic rules or errata, however he would cast spells at 36th level and hits like a 20th level fighter at level 40.
And I have one build that can do everything at different levels.
Some people just like being traditional and others like veering off tradition.
It really depends on the GM and you.
It requires contrived circumstances to allow min/level pre-buffing, not contrived circumstances to prevent it.
Curious that all of the ways that people have put forth to prevent pre-battle buffing start with the GM changing the way they run things, then...
Divine power > weapon trainingPerhaps. But the cleric starts far enough behind the fighter that divine power simply gets the cleric close to the fighter's combat ability. Consider that at its best (18th level) divine power gives +6 on attack and damage rolls; that's just enough, with Weapon Focus, to put the cleric's attack bonus (+13+6+1=+20) on par with an equal level fighter that has Greater Weapon Focus (+18+2=+20); the fighter also gets to add up to +4 on top of that from Weapon Training (+20+4=+24). Similarly, the +6 damage from divine power lags behind the fighter with Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Training (+4+4=+8).You are incorrect on the power level of a cleric. He gets up in the morning, straps on his armor his buckler and gets out his bow. He pops out 2 extended magic vestments and an extended greater magic weapon and now his mundane armor buckler and weapon have the bonuses of about max what a character of that level should find. He invests that enchantment money in useful items. When he gets in a fight He casts divine power and gives himself a luck bonus to hit and damage that stacks with his enhancement bonus. Add righteous might and now he has DR and natural armor added as well, and here's the deal, when the cleric casts divine power on himself, he enhances HIMSELF. The fighter has only one type of weapon, when the cleric switches from ranged to melee, he still has the benefit. Versatility is why the cleric is so powerful, not dropping everything into critical feats and improved critical kukri and blinding everything you come across.
Edit: oops I forgot he can greater magic weapon his +1 defending armor spikes when he gets up.
Magic vestment and greater magic weapon, by your own admission, provide enhancement bonuses equal to what a character of that level would have using the Wealth By Level guidelines (+2 at level 8, +3 at level 12, +4 at level 16, +5 at level 20). Net effect on combat ability (attack rolls, damage, AC)- none.
As shown above, divine power just allows the cleric to get close on attack rolls (at best, +1 over the fighter's BAB; with Weapon Training, the fighter will have at least as good of a chance to hit, even before calculating ability bonuses and feats) and possibly an advantage on damage (depending on how many weapons the fighter has taken the Weapon Specialization or other damage boosting feats for and which weapon the fighter uses). Net effect- it depends on the circumstances; the cleric may have an advantage when you get to third and fourth choices of weapons, but the fighter will most likely have the advantage with the first and second choices.
Righteous might is a decent spell, but the fighter can get the most important benefit from potions of enlarge person at 50 gp each: large size (reach, increased weapon damage). Righteous might grants +4 Str (size), -2 Dex (size), +4 Con (size), +2 natural armor (enhancement), and DR 5/evil (10/evil after 15th level). Enlarge person grants +2 Str (size) and -2 Dex (size). However, the fighter will almost definitely have higher base Str and Dex and possibly a higher base Con (a bit of a wash) and both will almost definitely be wearing an amulet of natural armor (which grants an enhancement bonus; i.e., doesn't stack with the bonus from righteous might). The DR is nice, but isn't overwhelmingly powerful in comparison to an adamantine breastplate (+10,000 gp, DR 2/-), adamantine full plate (+15,000 gp, DR 3/-), a 1 time per day stoneskin item (22,580 gp, DR 10/adamantine), a ring of spell storing with stoneskin cast into it by a friendly wizard (50,000 gp plus 530 gp for spellcasting and material component), or a ring of regeneration (90,000 gp, regenerate 1 hp per round). Depending on the opponents, the DR x/evil can be either useful (no evil-aligned weapons or supernatural evil creatures using natural attacks) or meaningless (evil casters with align weapon, unholy weapons, supernatural evil creatures bypass it). Even at 15th level and up, the benefit is uneven (better when it works, but opponents that are able to bypass it are more common). Meanwhile, the fighter gets Armor Mastery (DR 5/-) as a class ability at 19th level. Net effect- slight advantage to the cleric on defense, depending on the circumstances.
I will say it again: CoDzilla was never just about long term buffs and divine power/righteous might. It was about long term buffs and short term buffs capped off with divine power/righteous might.
Curious that all of the ways that people have put forth to prevent pre-battle buffing start with the GM changing the way they run things, then...It does not impress the ladies if you need to stand there playing with yourself for half a minute to get it up.
A somewhat clever (but only somewhat) comment that is completely irrelevant to the point: is pre-battle preparation the norm or the exception. Considering that all of the suggestions are about changing the way GMs operate, that's a strong indication that buffing before a battle is the norm.
Try to keep your posts meaningful to the discussion.
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It requires contrived circumstances to allow min/level pre-buffing, not contrived circumstances to prevent it.Curious that all of the ways that people have put forth to prevent pre-battle buffing start with the GM changing the way they run things, then...
Perhaps it would change the way your GM runs things, but I am reasonably sure that it's not a change from the way many GMs run things. I can't think of the last time I saw a DnD game run as if the monsters in the next room don't spawn until you open the door. I thought we left those days behind us when we started being pretentious about this game not being a computer game.
Not to say that there are no instances in which you'll get to pre-buff. It's simply that your MT needs twice as many rounds as any other caster. The only time I've found that to be a reasonable assumption is while playing a computer game where the monsters don't "pull" until I decide to go up to them and hit them.
So yes, if your GM runs monsters as things that stay in their discreet rooms and don't ever leave, then the list of reasonable actions on the parts of monsters that A Man In Black listed may seem like contrived circumstances. And if that's the game you're running, that's fine. I can see how that would be fun and I'm glad you're having fun. I'd suggest that you not confuse that style of play with the norm though. You might get confused during a lot of discussions.
Thanks,
JP
Magic vestment and greater magic weapon, by your own admission, provide enhancement bonuses equal to what a character of that level would have using the Wealth By Level guidelines (+2 at level 8, +3 at level 12, +4 at level 16, +5 at level 20). Net effect on combat ability (attack rolls, damage, AC)- none.The point of these spells is that you cast them instead of spending money to gain these bonuses.
Convincing DCP is hopeless, but I hope nobody takes his bad advice on points such as this.
And the fighter is spending that money on... what?
We're discussing the straight combat ability of a cleric compared to an equal level fighter. The point is that magic vestment, greater magic weapon, and divine power only make the cleric roughly equal to a fighter of the same level (and actually slightly behind when it comes to using their primary weapon choice).
I am not arguing that these spells are worthless. What I am arguing is that these spells by themselves do not make the cleric a better combatant than a fighter. Even adding righteous might, the cleric is not tremendously more powerful than a fighter who drinks a potion of enlarge person (a 50 gp item!) at the start of each fight.
A somewhat clever (but only somewhat) comment that is completely irrelevant to the point: is pre-battle preparation the norm or the exception. Considering that all of the suggestions are about changing the way GMs operate, that's a strong indication that buffing before a battle is the norm.You argument that pre-battle buffing is the norm consists of "People have offered reasons why pre-battle buffing doesn't work."
So, yeah.
If the party/someone in the party is constantly casting all his 1min/level buff spells in anticipation of combat, and ending up more powerful than the DM feels is balanced, the canny DM can quickly curtail this by simply creating fake combat threats.
(Emphasis mine)
Or by setting a faster pace, or by hiding enemies, or by threatening to have enemies prepare similarly if the party stands around playing with themselves or by sending skirmishers out or any number of other ways.
I see nothing about "the baseline assumption is that the party doesn't/shouldn't buff before combat." All I see are "here are ways to spoil a tactic that's valid under the RAW."
In fact, the CR system assumes that the party does prepare before most fights. This is one of the reasons that high level play is so "swingy."
Now shush, you're arguing (badly) about single-classed comparisons in a multiclassing thread.
NO, I am arguing that
1) Using the buffs available from both spell lists, the mystic theurge can be roughly equal to (or possibly better than, in some aspects) the cleric in combat ability at 8th-14th level. A mystic theurge can cast almost every buff the cleric can (and with the trait Magical Knack, which can be found in the free Traits PDF under Pathfinder Resources, the mystic theurge can cast them with almost the same CL) plus several additional buffs that stack. Whether it suits an individual player's style or the style of the group is a separate consideration; the fact that it's mechanically possible by the RAW is enough to disprove the premise "the mystic theurge cannot be an effective combatant."
2) Your interpretation of CoDzilla (magic vestment, greater magic weapon, and divine power) does not "outshine the fighter" in pure combat ability (i.e., attack rolls, weapon damage, AC). Even the addition of righteous might does not make the cleric tremendously overpowered compared to a fighter with cheap potions of enlarge person. The analysis above disproves the premise "a fighter is overshadowed in combat ability by a cleric using just magic vestment, greater magic weapon, divine power, and righteous might."
I went back a page or two to find where people pointed out to him that heavy pre-battle buff stacking isn't the norm, but then I found a post where he suggested that someone might cast Bigby's Interposing Hand and got sidetracked by giggles.
When you actually have substantiative arguments, feel free. If all you want to do is make broad statements without support and try to impress people with witty dialogue, just keep trying.
2) Your interpretation of CoDzilla (magic vestment, greater magic weapon, and divine power) does not "outshine the fighter" in... blah blah blahThis would be the (bad) arguing about single-class comparisons to which I was referring.
Ahem. Who is the one who posted the following regarding divine power?
they'd spend one round casting a buff to allow them to leave melee classes completely in the dust, then go ahead and smash faces.
