A spiked pit isn't a threat? Why does it have a CR then?That's "threats (such as combat)," not just a challenge/encounter. The pit and spikes have no immediate impact on the character's ability to climb, they only impose a penalty to failure. It has a CR because not every character has a +10 Climb skill check to be able to take 10 and will either need to expend resources or have another character's assistance in bypassing it.
Oh, cut the semantic games. "Such as combat" isn't saying "Only combat is considered a threat". It's one, single, solitary example of a threat. Because there is no mechanical definition of threat, we default to the standard English definition of threat, which is:
threat (thrět)
n.
1. An expression of an intention to inflict pain, injury, evil, or punishment.
2. An indication of impending danger or harm.
3. One that is regarded as a possible danger; a menace.
The spikes at the bottom of the pit you're climbing are a possible danger, and thus a threat.
Not to mention that you're being internally inconsistent. The guards have no immediate impact on the character's ability to pick locks, and yet you already admitted the character shouldn't be able to take 10 on picking the lock.
A spiked pit isn't a threat? Why does it have a CR then?That's "threats (such as combat)," not just a challenge/encounter. The pit and spikes have no immediate impact on the character's ability to climb, they only impose a penalty to failure. It has a CR because not every character has a +10 Climb skill check to be able to take 10 and will either need to expend resources or have another character's assistance in bypassing it.Oh, cut the semantic games. "Such as combat" isn't saying "Only combat is considered a threat". It's one, single, solitary example of a threat. Because there is no mechanical definition of threat, we default to the standard English definition of threat, which is:
threat (thrět)
n.
1. An expression of an intention to inflict pain, injury, evil, or punishment.
2. An indication of impending danger or harm.
3. One that is regarded as a possible danger; a menace.The spikes at the bottom of the pit you're climbing are a possible danger, and thus a threat.
Not to mention that you're being internally inconsistent. The guards have no immediate impact on the character's ability to pick locks, and yet you already admitted the character shouldn't be able to take 10 on picking the lock.
1) "Threats (such as combat)" - "such as combat" is providing context to the term "threats." What is the difference between the general term threat and combat? Combat requires you to deal with distractions, hurry, shift position in response to a blow, etc., which means you can't be careful, concentrate on just climbing, and take that extra second to make sure of your balance/position. Other "distractions or threats (such as combat)" would include gusts of wind, smoke, small animals on or flying passed the surface, etc. The key determination: "When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted..." Calling the pit with spikes immediate (instead of potential) danger is pushing things over the line. Do you also require Swim checks instead of taking 10 whenever someone is in water over their heads, but unthreatened by anything else (calm water DC 10)? After all, they're in danger of drowning.
2) Where have I said that the character couldn't take 10 to pick the lock?
With a Climber's Kit (+2 to Climb checks) and Thieves' Tools, the rogue 2/wizard 3 can take 10 on DC 20 Climb and Disable Device checks.
Like, I cannot even take this seriously. Burning 3500g an hour? Recasting buffs every three minutes? Is this party sponsored by Marlboro and Nike or something?As far as burning 3500 gp per hour, when you're going to make more than that in treasure (see table 12-5 Treasure Value per Encounter on PF RPG pg. 399), you can afford it.
Anyway, in actual practice it's more like:
GM: You come to a door.
Rogue: I search for traps, taking 20*.
MT: While he's doing that, I buff myself with blur, bull's strength, and cat's grace from my wands and enlarge person and shield from scrolls. In the remaining five rounds that the rogue is spending to take 20, I use my wands to buff the three other party members with blur, the party tank with bull's strength, and the rogue with cat's grace.
The rogue has a better chance (+4 Dex) on any Disable Device check to bypass traps or open locks, the party is better protected (one attack in five automatically misses), the party tank can hit better (+4 Str), and the mystic theurge has most of his buffs active before combat even starts. If the rogue needs to take 20 to open a lock (normally a full round action) after spending 2d4 rounds disabling a trap, then that's 20 rounds to renew buffs before they expire and possibly add a few more.
*- Active Perception check is a move action, so taking 20 requires 10 rounds of double move actions.
MT: While he's doing that, I buff myself with blur, bull's strength, and cat's grace from my wands and enlarge person and shield from scrolls. In the remaining five rounds that the rogue is spending to take 20, I use my wands to buff the three other party members with blur, the party tank with bull's strength, and the rogue with cat's grace.
So you're not talking about CoDzilla at all, and merely gabbing on about impractical use of buffs. Gotcha.
(Also, you cast a damage-increasing spell on the damage-taker, and a defensive spell on the damage-dealer. Heh.)
"Impractical?" Blur, bull's strength, cat's grace, enlarge person, and shield in combination grant +6 Str, +2 Dex, large size, a +4 shield bonus to AC that allows use of weapons two-handed, and a 20% miss chance to all incoming attacks. Once the mystic theurge hits 8th character level, he can have heroism (+2 morale bonus to attack rolls, saves, and skill checks; stacks with the luck bonuses from divine favor/divine power) up for 50 minutes at a time (scribe scroll cost of 187 gp, 5 sp). Granted, I have experience with "S.W.A.T. team" style play, so looking at ways to stack buffs and apply them before a fight is something I think about. Such a style places a greater emphasis in the use of consumables (potions, scrolls, wands) to beef up the party; it also places a greater emphasis on preparation and taking actions to get ready before "kicking in the door."
(Bull's strength makes the tank hit harder, i.e. "the best defense is a good offense," and what rogue doesn't take Weapon Finesse? Besides, both of them will be getting hit 20% less often from blur)
If you're going to make the claim that my mystic theurge CoDzilla is ineffective compared to a straight cleric, show me where I'm wrong. What are the "long-term buffs" you keep talking about that make a straight cleric, in combination with divine power and/or righteous might, such an effective CoDzilla over a cleric/wizard/mystic theurge?
Bless? 1 min/level
Divine favor? 1 min, doesn't stack with divine power
Entropic shield? 1 min/level
Protection from chaos/evil/good/law? 1 min/level
Shield of faith? 1 min/level
Aid? 1 min/level
Bull's strength/cat's grace? 1 min/level
Magic vestment? at +1 per 4 levels, you'll probably have equivalent armor under Wealth By Level guidelines and you have to be 12th level to exceed the protection of a shield spell; also requires two castings for the cleric (armor, shield) while the mystic theurge only needs one (and can scribe a scroll for 187 gp, 5 sp on hitting 8th character level, the same level heroism becomes available as a wizard spell)
Greater magic weapon? again, at +1 per 4 levels, the effect is minor under the Wealth By Level guidelines (my +1 undead bane mace becomes +2, yipee) until you reach high level (12+), at which point the mystic theurge has it too.
Of course, then you have to deal with the guards being alerted by all the spellcasting, and whatever reinforcements they call for.
Well, this is obviously not a good tactic for a stealthy infiltration. For a powerful assault against a strong position, it works quite well. Hopefully, by the time the party reaches the middle levels they will have learned to do their research, plan ahead, and execute appropriate tactics for the situation at hand.
The point is that a mystic theurge can be effective in the CoDzilla role, not that choosing the CoDzilla role is always the most effective tactic. Then again, CoDzilla is not always the most effective tactic for a straight cleric, either.
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I have to agree against the Mystic Theurge. Although I think you guys are talking about two different arguements.
My experience is that the class is lacking overly much. The lower caster level and the much slower spell acquisition are just way to big of a trade off (unless you already have a primary divine and arcane caster, and all the roles are filled). The one time I was kind of happy with the class was when I played a Cleric/ Battle Sorcerer (Unearth Arcana) and at first it wasn't so bad. Once I got to about 10th though (2 or 3 levels into Mystic Theurge at earliest possibility), it really started to drag me down. The fact that it has set BaB, Saves, and Skills, and no continuation of previous Class Features just ruins the class.
On the other hand, the True Necromancer did it right, and I'd suggest modeling a class based on that for each of the schools of magic. Ultimate Conjurer, Supreme Abjurer, Exalted Diviner, etc . . .
The idea of scrolls and wands just would not work in most campaigns even for half of the buffs I think your talking about. It's way to expensive, unless I misunderstand what you mean. Not to mention that you (and probably your whole party) would have no resources and other magic items, you may not have the opertunity to gain new scrolls, or the ones you want depending on how easily magic items are purchased in your game, but said wizard would not have the money to scribe spells into their book, afford expensive materials for good cleric spells (or some later wizard ones either) and would be completely ruined with antimagic or being Dispelled, because they wouldn't have much in the way of backup gear. Not saying your game is wrong, just it wouldn't work easily if at all in most games I'm familiar with.
If you actually read my posts instead of ignoring them, it costs 750 gp for a mystic theurge to scribe scrolls to maintain a shield spell for one hour. Ditto for enlarge person. Craft wands of blur, bull's strength, and cat's grace (at 3 minutes per charge) for 2,750 gp each. How long does a typical dungeon exploration session take in game time (not counting travel time to reach the location)? Most often an hour or less.
Using the mentioned scrolls and wands, the mystic theurge is running around for that entire time (renewing buffs from scrolls and wands every 3 minutes; taking 5 rounds or 30 seconds) with +6 Str, +2 Dex, a +4 AC shield bonus (non-encumbering), is large size (reach, extra damage), and one attack in five made against him is an automatic miss. Add heroism (+2 morale bonus to attack rolls, saves, and skill checks; 10 min/level) and cast divine favor (+1 luck bonus to attack and damage rolls every three levels, max. +3)/divine power (+1 luck bonus to attack rolls, damage rolls, Str checks, and Str-based skill checks every three levels, max. +6, and gain +1 temporary hp per level) and possibly haste (+1 to attack rolls, +1 dodge bonus to AC and Ref saves, +30 ft enhancement bonus to all movement, make an extra attack with a full attack action; affects 1 target/level) before each combat.
I have to agree with the man in black. You don't understand the concept of CoDzilla very well.
This isn't CoDzilla, this is buff stacking using extensive magic items - to the tune of 6,000gp an hour in wands and scrolls. That isn't an argument for Mystic Theurge - especially since the argument has long been made that the MT has spells to spare for such buffs (which isn't really true).
It is possible to play a wizard/cleric loaded with buffs who can perform in melee, but it isn't even close to the easiest or most effective way to do so, and when doing so you aren't CoDzilla, you're just a mass of buffs.
At higher levels most of the buffs you can afford are no longer relivant given that you can achieve similar effects (and will) with permanent magic items).
1) "Threats (such as combat)" - "such as combat" is providing context to the term "threats." What is the difference between the general term threat and combat? Combat requires you to deal with distractions, hurry, shift position in response to a blow, etc., which means you can't be careful, concentrate on just climbing, and take that extra second to make sure of your balance/position. Other "distractions or threats (such as combat)" would include gusts of wind, smoke, small animals on or flying passed the surface, etc. The key determination: "When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted..." Calling the pit with spikes...A spiked pit isn't a threat? Why does it have a CR then?That's "threats (such as combat)," not just a challenge/encounter. The pit and spikes have no immediate impact on the character's ability to climb, they only impose a penalty to failure. It has a CR because not every character has a +10 Climb skill check to be able to take 10 and will either need to expend resources or have another character's assistance in bypassing it.Oh, cut the semantic games. "Such as combat" isn't saying "Only combat is considered a threat". It's one, single, solitary example of a threat. Because there is no mechanical definition of threat, we default to the standard English definition of threat, which is:
threat (thrět)
n.
1. An expression of an intention to inflict pain, injury, evil, or punishment.
2. An indication of impending danger or harm.
3. One that is regarded as a possible danger; a menace.The spikes at the bottom of the pit you're climbing are a possible danger, and thus a threat.
Not to mention that you're being internally inconsistent. The guards have no immediate impact on the character's ability to pick locks, and yet you already admitted the character shouldn't be able to take 10 on picking the lock.
I'm going to say on this one that falling would be dangerous and thus you can't take 10 on a climb check when failure would result in you taking damage. If it's not dangerous you wouldn't be scared to roll the dice. If you had a +19 climbing a dc 20 wall wouldn't be dangerous, but if you add a little ice and raise it to DC 22 it would be dangerous again til you had a +21 climb check.
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Spiked pit or not, you can take 10 on climb checks. If failing has any special risk, (like say trying to disable a trap and failing by a certain amount will set off the trap) you can't Take 20, regardless of other prereqs. you may meet for taking 20. But that is a different issue.
Taking 10 is about having the time and ability to focus on the one specific task to not make mistakes. Taking 20 is (almost literally) sitting there and rolling 20 times and getting all results until you succeed.
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In answer to the original question:
personally, no. A lot of the really neat features added to the classes don't kick in without higher levels of each class. Does this mean that a fighter/rogue is no longer as good or as interesting as a straight fighter or rogue? Not necessarily, but most of the best multiclass and prestige options are now equal to remaining in any given class. As it always should have been, Pathfinder has made it so that prestige classes and multi-class characters are a character choice rather than a matter of optimization. In my opinion, anyway.
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I think that is part of the problem though. Fighter/Rogue is a valid option (in every edition) while most other combinations are not because of the way 3E works. Regardless of how much fun it sounds, it doesn't work well, and Spellcasters have the worst of it. If the dm is working everything around your characters, (like if you want to try playing a level 20 commoner and he accomidates you by throwing level 5 kobalds at you for boss fights) than multiclassing works. But if it involves much in the way of randomness, it does not for the most part as your character can not pull their own weight at an ever increasing scale, and it hurts everyone else. If you a caster, you can't buff, AoE, or heal to keep up, and at certain points will not have the ability to overcome some tasks at all. If your playing a fighter, you may not have the HP, Fort, or Att to be front line, (and that is where the Wizard need you or they can't cast their spells). Rogues don't have as much a problem, because they can boost their skills in other ways, usually get better at hitting when they multiclass, and just get better options. Their Sneak attack gets hurt, but that is not their one and only feature, and what they get helps cover that. Casters don't get that sort of benefit most of the time.
(my +1 undead bane mace becomes +2, yipee)For one third-level spell you can have on all day, you get Weapon Training (as long as you have the wit not to ever use a +2 weapon when you can use a +1 weapon with special abilities, or just don't spend any of your WBL on a weapon). For another third-level spell, you get Armor Training, except you don't need the dex to fill it out. (Plus, you can cast that spell again, once you get an animated shield.)
Sorry, greater magic weapon is a 4th level spell for clerics (and it's not on any domain list). It's 3rd level on the sorcerer/wizard list, so the cleric and the mystic theurge gain it at about the same time (7th level for cleric, 8th level for mystic theurge).
Again, until you hit 12th level, you need to invest at least 9,157 gp and a 3rd level spell slot to get the same benefit a mystic theurge can get from a bunch of cheaply scribed scrolls. And at 13th level, the mystic theurge with Magical Knack (cleric) and Arcane Armor Mastery ditches the shield spell scrolls for a +1 animated mithral heavy shield (5% spell failure) to go with their mithral breastplate (15% spell failure) for the exact same benefit (which they have already had since 8th level on their armor).
But you are talking about +1 bonuses, so you can't gut the core to try and get more, unless you get a LOT of bonuses in the tradeoff. Losing 3 BAB, 5 AC (or two feats, whatever), and about 2-ish HP a level means that you're even further behind, nevermind your delays on accessing buffs and lower caster level and your naturally lower physical stats since you need to stack mental stats.
BAB by character level:
7 - c +5, mt +38 - c +6, mt +4 (however, this is the level that the mystic theurge gains access to heroism, which is not on the cleric list and only in the Charm domain as a 4th level spell)
9 - c +6, mt +4
10- c +7, mt +5
11- c +8, mt +5
12- c +9, mt +6
13- c +9, mt +6
14- c +10, mt +7
15- c +11, mt +7
16- c +12, mt +8
17- c +12, mt +8
18- c +13, mt +9
19- c +14, mt +9
20- c +15, mt +10
So, except for 7th level and 15th+ level, the cleric (unless they have the Charm domain) and mystic theurge are actually about the same. With heroism up (a 10 min/level duration, 3rd level Sorcerer/Wizard spell; scribe cost 187 gp, 5 sp), the cleric and mystic theurge have the same hit chance 8th-10th level while the cleric has a 5% better chance 11th-14th. It's only from 15th level and up that the cleric seriously starts pulling ahead.
Let me see, an extra 2 hp per level, which ends up as 34 extra hp at 20th level, if both characters take cleric as their favored class and take the +1 hp over the +1 skill point; if the favored class bonus is used by the cleric for skills, then that's an average of 17 extra hp at 20th level. I'll take getting hit 20% less often (from blur), thanks.
(BTW, the PF core long-duration cleric buffs you'd actually want to use are GMW, Magic Vestment, arguably Shield Other, Magic Circle, Resist Energy/Protection From Energy, Air Walk/Wind Walk, Freedom of effing Movement, and Comprehend Languages.)
Greater magic weapon - covered above; both cleric and mystic theurge get it at almost the same level
Magic vestment - covered above; not really a big benefit until 12th level and the mystic theurge is also using it starting at 8th levelShield other - this is cast on another creature, not yourself; the caster gains no benefit
Magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law - a 10 min/level 3rd level spell on both the cleric and sorcerer/wizard lists; starting at 8th level, the mystic theurge is casting it from either set of prepared spells or scribing it to a scroll (187 gp, 5 sp)
Resist energy/protection from energy - 10 min/level spells (2nd and 3rd level, respectively) on both the cleric and sorcerer/wizard lists; starting at 8th level, the mystic theurge can cast both from either set of prepared spells (and has had resist energy since 3rd level)
Air walk/wind walk - 4th level and 6th level respectively; air walk is a bit better than fly (mostly because you don't need to use the Fly skill) and has a longer duration, but fly gives faster movement (60 ft) and can be scribed to a scroll (187 gp, 5 sp) for use as needed (until the mystic theurge gains it at 10th character level or overland flight at 12th level); wind walk is primarily useful for overland movement (gaseous form is available to the mystic theurge at 8th level) and the mystic theurge can cast teleport at 12th level, one level after the cleric gains wind walk (that's instantaneous travel 100 miles/level for teleport compared to 60 miles per hour for 1 hour/level with wind walk; granted, teleport requires knowledge of the destination and has a chance of mishap)
Freedom of movement - potentially a very big benefit; available to the mystic theurge starting at 10th level
Comprehend languages (seriously?) - a 10 min/level 1st level spell on both the cleric and sorcerer/wizard lists; tongues is a 4th level cleric spell and a 3rd level sorcerer/wizard spell
So, the only real difference between the cleric and the mystic theurge is at 7th level and lack of freedom of movement until 10th level. In return, the mystic theurge can cast spells like enlarge person (almost as good as righteous might, which the mystic theurge gains at 12th level, and available immediately), shield (useful until 12th-13th level), true strike, blur, false life (1 hour/level, 1d10 +1/level temporary hp), invisibility, mirror image, blink, haste, heroism, fire shield, stoneskin (although the material component cost is a bit of a pain), interposing hand, overland flight (1 hour/level, 40 ft flight), etc.
From 8th to 14th level, the mystic theurge can pretty much match the straight cleric at basic CoDzilla. With an extra few rounds to prepare before a fight, the mystic theurge can actually exceed the straight cleric at the CoDzilla game.
I'm going to say on this one that falling would be dangerous and thus you can't take 10 on a climb check when failure would result in you taking damage. If it's not dangerous you wouldn't be scared to roll the dice. If you had a +19 climbing a dc 20 wall wouldn't be dangerous, but if you add a little ice and raise it to DC 22 it would be dangerous again til you had a +21 climb check.
So, you can't take 10 unless you can succeed (mathematically) on a roll of "1?" The only time you can take 10 is when the only reason you'd fail at all is from the 1's automatic failure?
That's completely perverting the intent of taking 10. There's a huge difference between being "in immediate danger" and doing something that could be dangerous. Hop on a motorcycle without a helmet and take it up to 55 mph. As long as you don't do anything crazy, follow the traffic laws, and keep track of what's going on around you (taking 10), you'll probably be fine (barring a freakish occurrence), even with only a moderate amount training and experience. The way you're interpreting the rule, you'd have to make a check every six seconds to keep from losing control and killing yourself.
I'm going to say on this one that falling would be dangerous and thus you can't take 10 on a climb check when failure would result in you taking damage. If it's not dangerous you wouldn't be scared to roll the dice. If you had a +19 climbing a dc 20 wall wouldn't be dangerous, but if you add a little ice and raise it to DC 22 it would be dangerous again til you had a +21 climb check.So, you can't take 10 unless you can succeed (mathematically) on a roll of "1?" The only time you can take 10 is when the only reason you'd fail at all is from the 1's automatic failure?
That's completely perverting the intent of taking 10. There's a huge difference between being "in immediate danger" and doing something that could be dangerous. Hop on a motorcycle without a helmet and take it up to 55 mph. As long as you don't do anything crazy, follow the traffic laws, and keep track of what's going on around you (taking 10), you'll probably be fine (barring a freakish occurrence), even with only a moderate amount training and experience. The way you're interpreting the rule, you'd have to make a check every six seconds to keep from losing control and killing yourself.
That's not what I said at all. You might want to work on your reading skills. I said if you can fall and hurt yourself it is dangerous and thus you have to roll your skill check. You don't have to roll and can take 10 if you'r not in danger. Falling and breaking your neck is dangerous. Also I think rolling dice while riding a motorcycle would be dangerous, but could make a good youtube video.
So, the only real difference between the cleric and the mystic theurge is at 7th level and lack of freedom of movement until 10th level. In return, the mystic theurge can cast a bunch of short-duration buffsYou lose 2-3 BAB, 2 HP-ish a level, and 5 AC/two feats, and you don't get comparable combat mojo back for it. (Heroism offsets the BAB some but it's level 10 before you can extend it, False Life offsets the HP somewhat.).
Heroism (+2 attack rolls, saves, skill checks) is 10 min/level, just like magic circle from chaos/evil/good/law (which the mystic theurge can cast), resist energy/protection from energy (which the mystic theurge can cast), air walk (which the mystic theurge can compensate for somewhat with scrolls of fly until 10th level), freedom of movement (which the mystic theurge gets at 10th level), and comprehend languages; the "critical buffs" which you cite as being central to CoDzilla.
As stated, the mystic theurge has greater magic weapon and magic vestment at 8th level, so is almost exactly the same as the cleric from 8th to 14th level (the cleric can have an extra +1 on attack rolls during 11th to 14th levels and gets a +3 bonus with greater magic weapon and magic vestment at 12th level instead of 13th for the mystic theurge with Magical Knack, that's about it). From that equivalent starting point, the mystic theurge can add blur (20% of all attacks miss), haste (the best party enhancing combat buff), fire shield (any creature that hits you in melee takes damage, increasing your damage dealing ability as a main combatant; if I want to sit back and cast damage spells, I have fireball, etc. from the sorcerer/wizard list and flame strike at 12th level), interposing hand (+4 AC from cover against one opponent, stacks with everything else, prevents AoOs), overland flight (which is a better spell than air walk; 1 hour/level vs. 10 min/level and 40 ft flight vs. "normal movement" of 30 ft), stoneskin (10 min/level and DR 10/adamantine is more useful than DR 5/evil against most typical enemies), etc. A cleric may be able to gain some of these from domain spells, but the mystic thurge can cast them all.
The point of these buffs isn't to cast all of them before or in every combat (although a some, like blur, divine favor/divine power, enlarge person/righteous might, and haste should be staples), but to mix and match these additional buffs to the situation at hand to increase the effectiveness of straight CoDzilla. Personally, I'll take the time in between adventures to prepare myself with some relatively cheap consumable items (scrolls and wands), spend a few actions immediately before combat whenever possible to buff myself and the rest of the party (blur is one of the most underutilized buff spells in most groups, IMO; 4 charges from a wand of blur cost 450 gp to craft and give the entire party 20% more staying power vs. all attacks for that combat), and one extra round to cast haste.
Also, by using low-level and/or long term equivalents (i.e., stoneskin for DR and enlarge person for size in place of righteous might), the mystic theurge can CoDzilla more times per day (at slightly lower power) than the straight cleric, saving the high-powered versions for the tougher fights. How many times per day can a straight cleric cast righteous might vs. the number of times a mystic theurge can cast enlarge person (without even considering a cheap scribed scroll) or righteous might? The CoDzilla cleric still requires divine favor/divine power and possibly righteous might in each combat, so don't try to pretend the straight cleric isn't "touching up their makeup" for each fight just as often as the mystic theurge.
That's not what I said at all. You might want to work on your reading skills. I said if you can fall and hurt yourself it is dangerous and thus you have to roll your skill check. You don't have to roll and can take 10 if you'r not in danger. Falling and breaking your neck is dangerous. Also I think rolling dice while riding a motorcycle would be dangerous, but could make a good youtube video.I'm going to say on this one that falling would be dangerous and thus you can't take 10 on a climb check when failure would result in you taking damage. If it's not dangerous you wouldn't be scared to roll the dice. If you had a +19 climbing a dc 20 wall wouldn't be dangerous, but if you add a little ice and raise it to DC 22 it would be dangerous again til you had a +21 climb check.So, you can't take 10 unless you can succeed (mathematically) on a roll of "1?" The only time you can take 10 is when the only reason you'd fail at all is from the 1's automatic failure?
That's completely perverting the intent of taking 10. There's a huge difference between being "in immediate danger" and doing something that could be dangerous. Hop on a motorcycle without a helmet and take it up to 55 mph. As long as you don't do anything crazy, follow the traffic laws, and keep track of what's going on around you (taking 10), you'll probably be fine (barring a freakish occurrence), even with only a moderate amount training and experience. The way you're interpreting the rule, you'd have to make a check every six seconds to keep from losing control and killing yourself.
Deflection attempt failed.
Falling off a motorcycle moving at 55 mph is dangerous and can result in broken bones, severe bleeding, amputation, or even death. In game terms, operating a vehicle is a skill. By your interpretation, the only people who would be able to operate a motorcycle at 55 mph without making a skill check every 6 seconds would be highly trained people with a +9 skill check modifier (for a simple DC 10). Heck, anyone driving a car at 55 mph while not wearing a seatbelt would be in the same situation. There are plenty of traffic accidents, but not that many (rolling every 6 seconds would result in at least one accident per driver for every minute spent driving at 55 miles per hour, on average). Considering many of the yahoos on the road, can you seriously tell me that every single one of them has the equivalent of a +9 or better on their Drive skill?
the mystic theurge can CoDzilla more times per day>:|
As long as you're still here, you still don't get it.
Let me break it down for you:
Both the cleric and the mystic theurge have greater magic weapon, magic circle against chaos/evil/good/law, magic vestment, and protection from energy; both also have the same physical stats (Str, Dex, Con), Weapon Focus (heavy mace), a mithral breastplate, and an amulet of natural armor +2 (8,000 gp). The cleric has a +1 animated heavy wooden shield (9,157 gp). The mystic theurge also has false life and heroism (+2 to attack rolls, saves, and skill checks); the mystic theurge has taken the trait Magical Knack (cleric) and the feats Arcane Armor Training and Arcane Armor Mastery; the mystic theurge also has scribed eight scrolls of enlarge person (CL 5) (62 gp, 5 sp each; 500 gp total) and eight scrolls of haste (187 gp, 5 sp each; 1,500 gp total).8th level - the cleric can cast divine power 2 times per day (assuming an 18+ Wis with one slot used for greater magic weapon; if the cleric wants air walk or freedom of movement, those each take another 4th level spell slot) for +2 on attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, Str checks, and Str-based skill checks and divine favor up to 5 times per day for +2 on attack rolls and weapon damage rolls; the mystic theurge can cast divine favor 4 times per day for +2 on attack rolls and damage rolls, has scribed four scrolls of divine favor (CL 6) (75 gp each; 300 gp total) for +2 on attack rolls and damage rolls, can cast shield 4 times per day for +4 AC, and has scribed four scrolls of shield (CL 5) (62 gp, 5 sp each; 250 gp total) for +4 AC. Analysis: The cleric can CoDzilla for a maximum of 7 times per day for +2 on attack rolls and damage; the mystic theurge can CoDzilla for 8 times per day for +3 on attack rolls, +2 on damage rolls, +2 Str, a second attack on a full attack action at full bonus (not at -5 as an iterative), is large size and moves at 60 ft in combat, and has better saves and skill checks.
9th level - the cleric can cast righteous might 2 times per day (assuming a 20+ Wis; possible with a 16+ Wis at 1st, both advancements, and a headband of inspired wisdom (+2)) and divine favor/divine power up to 8 times per day (with 20 + Wis) for +3 on attack and damage rolls; the mystic theurge is mostly the same (can prepare an additional 2nd and 3rd level spell as both cleric and wizard). Analysis: The cleric can perform slightly better in some ways than the mystic theurge for two fights per day (+4 Str and DR 5/evil vs. +2 Str, a second attack at normal bonus, and 60 ft movement), but is still behind the mystic theurge for the other six fights (medium size vs. +2 Str and large size).
10th level - the cleric can cast righteous might 3 times per day and divine favor/divine power up to 9 times per day (assume 8, with one 4th level slot used for freedom of movement) for +3 on attack and damage rolls; the mystic theurge can cast stoneskin (250 gp per casting) up to 2 times per day (assuming an effective 18+ Int; possible with a 15+ Int at 1st, one advancement, and a headband of mental prowess (+2 Int/Wis)) for DR 10/adamantine and can cast divine favor/divine power up to 7 times per day (assuming an effective 18+ Wis; possible with a 15+ Wis at 1st, one advancement, and a headband of mental prowess (+2 Int/Wis)) for +3 on attack and damage rolls (assume 6, with one 4th level slot used for freedom of movement; the mystic theurge also scribes 2 scrolls of divine favor (CL 9) for 225 gp and 1 scroll of air walk for 350 gp). Analysis: The cleric gains a slightly better Str for three fights (+4 vs +2), but underperforms the mystic theurge in other factors (DR, second attack, movement) and seriously underperforms the mystic theurge in the five other fights.
Should I continue? Heck, I'll even be generous and substitute a +1 animated heavy mithral shield (10,030 gp) for the mystic theurge instead of using shield spells, if it will make you feel better.
You continue to compare many small buffs which are not worth casting in combat with large buffs which are, and persist in comparing everything to the weakest of the big three cleric in-combat self-buffs.
Also, Blur is one of the most underutilized buffs because it is really bad. It is at least the sixth-worst second-level core sorc/wiz defensive buff spell that is seriously how bad it is.
You cast 1 min/level buffs before you initiate combat (the PCs usually being the ones who choose when to "kick down the door"), not during combat. They are designed as something you cast, probably from a scroll, wand, or an X times per day item, when you know you are about to get into a fight. You continually ignore that point, trying to make them an "in-combat" buff so you can talk about them "not being worth casting - ever."
And please explain to me how having 20% of all attacks against you automatically miss, regardless of the number of attacks against you or the number of attacks you make, is "really/seriously bad." As a defensive buff it's far from horrible, especially considering the way attack bonuses increase faster than AC bonuses moving into high-level play; that 20% miss chance applies regardless of the hit chance based on attack bonus vs. AC (i.e., a creature attacking someone they can hit on any roll except a 1 would still automatically miss on 20% of their attacks, before they even get to make an attack roll). I can see where mirror image is preferable, but it's also Range: Personal (which means only the caster can benefit, they can't apply it to other party members). Invisibility is a great defensive spell, but ends as soon as you attack another creature (which drastically curtails its usefulness in combat apart from setting up one surprise attack or covering a retreat; some very specific concepts like a summon monster specialist or a "buff/heal only" caster will find a lot of use out of it in combat).
Deflection attempt failed.Falling off a motorcycle moving at 55 mph is dangerous and can result in broken bones, severe bleeding, amputation, or even death. In game terms, operating a vehicle is a skill. By your interpretation, the only people who would be able to operate a motorcycle at 55 mph without making a skill check every 6 seconds...
I guess the guy in my class that drove his motorcycle into a telephone pole and split his head in two breaking his neck and back didn't know about that rule.
So yes, it's worth it. And no, it's not. The core 11 classes in PFRPG are SOLID. They don't NEED to multi-class.Unless you're a barbarian. Barbarians have big ugly multi-level gaps, where you're picking from the dregs of a not-too-hot talent list or getting weak defensive powers. 6-10 are ugly levels for barbarians; for five levels, you're getting some weak immunities (the low-level fear and the sick chain), a little bit of DR, and the dregs of a talent pool. Level 11 gives you a generic +1 to hit and damage, and then you're stuck waiting for nine more levels, until your capstone ability is...another +1 to hit and damage! Whee!
Agree. Picking some levels fighter won't hurt. Or any other class of your choise, ranger, rogue or even cleric.
Dragonchess, no offense man, but I think the Man in Black clearly has you beat.
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I think that they are still arguing differnt things. Dragon is arguing for a character (that is not a "Godzilla") that is more party orientated and better equiped against general hazards.
While MiB is argueing about a character mostly focused on themselves (nothing wrong with that) who excels at combat but not necessarily every other aspect of danger outside of it (but than again isn't spending all their parties money and time casting).
They are different but are being argued as they same thing. #1 is not a "Godzilla" even if it has some similarities.
I think that they are still arguing differnt things. Dragon is arguing for a character (that is not a "Godzilla") that is more party orientated and better equiped against general hazards.
While MiB is argueing about a character mostly focused on themselves (nothing wrong with that) who excels at combat but not necessarily every other aspect of danger outside of it (but than again isn't spending all their parties money and time casting).
They are different but are being argued as they same thing. #1 is not a "Godzilla" even if it has some similarities.
You may be right. I just thought the orignal debate centered around the topic TMIB was referencing.
CoDzilla has been nerfed thanks to the new PA and the new DF/DP.
A fighter is not all about smashing faces all day. They can trip, scout, disarm or whatever.
They got loads of feats, and stuff like Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Penetrating Strike, Deadly Stroke, Spellbreaker, Disruptive and Critical Mastery are fighter feats only.
The combination of step up, Spellbreaker and Disruptive is nice.
Step up is acually very nice if you play any melee character.
But I agree the fighter and especially the Barbarian could have needed som more love.
But lets hope there will be new feats in upcoming Advanced Player's Guide that boost fighters, barbarians and bards.
If you play a barbarian the combination of Stand Still and Unexpected Strike is very nice. If you have Combat Reflexes you can do it even if you are flat footed.
Just as the question asks above. Is it worth it?
Thanks
Yes it is, if you don't play a spell caster or if you don't play a Paladin.
One session our Paladin player forgot to use smite. He ruled anyway.Soon I think our DM will kill the Paladin and ban all Paladins ;-)
I like to multi-class. Paladin/cleric, Fighter/rogue, Bard/rogue, Ranger/rogue, Barbarian/fighter, Barbarian/bard, Barbarian/rogue, Barbarian/ranger, Cleric/fighter
Good or bad choise? It's more a matter of playing style. I you like to multi-class do it. You will probably loose out on some power but gain some versatility and some nice roleplaying options.
CoDzilla has been nerfed thanks to the new PA and the new DF/DP.Not so much as you'd notice, but that's neither here nor there. The point is that a PF cleric can still contribute in melee with CR-appropriate opposition, and a PF theurge can't without spending multiple turns playing with himself. Whether a PF cleric outshines a PF fighter (or barb or ranger etc.) doesn't really affect the discussion of that point.
I never stated that a PF theurge is more powerful than a PF cleric.
"The point is that" this isn't a thread about CoDzillaAre you having a discussion ? In your last two post you add in large bold letters: "CoDzilla outshined the fighter for the entire working day, little to no maintenance required" I think that's a statment. Not an invite to a discussion. I also think that statment is aggressive. An invite to one more flame war. We don't need more of those.
This isn't your thread or my thread so let's try to focus on the subject. And let's try to be nice
Bonus edit nitpick:
If you play a barbarian the combination of Stand Still and Unexpected Strike is very nice. If you have Combat Reflexes you can do it even if you are flat footed.How are you raging before you've had a turn?
Edit:
Just as a caster can buff himself before the combat starts, a barbarian can start ranging before the combat starts ;-)Buff or rage then knock down the door / open the door.
Bonus edit nitpick:
If you play a barbarian the combination of Stand Still and Unexpected Strike is very nice. If you have Combat Reflexes you can do it even if you are flat footed.How are you raging before you've had a turn?Edit:
Just as a caster can buff himself before the combat starts, a barbarian can start ranging before the combat starts ;-)
Buff or rage then knock down the door / open the door.
Hiya folks, just played a Mystic Theurge up to level 13 (clr 3 / wiz 3 / M.T. 7) and thought I'd bring my two cents to the table...
Clearly, the Straight Cleric will outdue the Mystic Theurge in melee. A straight cleric can be a real monster in melee, I'm playing one now in a war of the burning sky campaign (lvl 16 cleric of Zheenkeef) and I'm outpacing the rest of the party in straight damage dealt. obviously I'm not nearly as versatile as a fighter and it's buff dependent, but it wasn't something I ever could have done with mystic theurge... you'd need too many decent to high stats to Mystic Theurge and melee effectively.
Getting back to the point of the thread, Multiclassing and if it's worth it...
The mystic theurge was probably the most versatile caster I've ever played. Your spells are a little weaker, and you DO notice that you're not getting your higher level spells, but you have options and if you're smart about what you cast you can have an answer for just about anything. You're not a full mage or cleric, but you're not useless or underpowered. It's a LOT of book keeping and requires you to really know your spells.
The summons weren't useless by any stretch of the imagination. Sometimes you have to get creative with them, but they're still fun to have around and you can really get a horde going later on.
"So, is the cleric nerfed or not?" is on my short list of topics that deserve a snarkily-named thread. I suspect that it isn't except insofar as dropping the splat upgrades a second time is a nerf, but I wanna play around with some scratch characters before making affirmative claims which aren't plainly obvious.
Originally I looked at the nerf on divine favor. The nerf on divine power and I said they broke CodZilla. After I while I contented myself that a spell with +3hit/dam with anything is better than +2hit/+4dam with one type of weapon and a 4 feat investment. I also got looking at divine power and I was like.. Luck bonus?? What? This is awesome.
So now Codzilla can have a +6 enhancement bonus to STR, +4 size bonus to str, +6 luck bonus to str, +3hit/dam and Bozilla with changes to weapon size can just skip righteous might and prep something else in those slots since he wont' get a bonus for size and it's easier to pick the right mighty bow if you can't get one that resizes. He still gets access to GMW and magic vestment, so I think the cleric is just about as powerful as he used to be, but not in the same way.
That being said, I think a mystic theurge played correctly can be a huge boon to a group. I think focusing on group buffs for the fighters, mass enlarge person, mass bear's endurance/bull strength, haste, etc. and no save/partial save debuffs like RoE, enervation, waves of exhaustion/fatigue, and some control walls/clouds/glitterdusts while still being able to heal and buff say the fighter's weapon with GMW & Keen edge, archer with flame arrows, etc would be a great tactic for that character. That being said I played a mystic theurge in beta and it was kind of boring, but we didn't get very high in levels. I think it's a better class for someone to take as a cohort than to play yourself.
[...] So now Codzilla can have a +6 enhancement bonus to STR, +4 size bonus to str, +6 luck bonus to str, +3hit/dam and Bozilla with changes to weapon size can just skip righteous might and prep something else in those slots[...]
What is Bozilla?
Codzilla does not get +6 luck bonus to str. They get luck bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.The Strength bonus doesn't apply to CMB and CMD. Only to Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
What spell give +6 enhancement bonus to STR? Do you mean that most high level melee characters will get a +6 item to strength?
Edit: I guess a cleric that boost her charisma can pick two levels paladin and a cleric that dumps her char could pick some level fighter. Level 17 cleric and 3 level fighter in a mithral fullplate with no penalty to her move is nice. Give her a greatsword and she will have even more fun.
Me, I never did like high level games. To me level 5 to 12 is the most fun. Up to level 14 might be OK.
"So, is the cleric nerfed or not?" is on my short list of topics that deserve a snarkily-named thread. I suspect that it isn't except insofar as dropping the splat upgrades a second time is a nerf, but I wanna play around with some scratch characters before making affirmative claims which aren't plainly obvious.Originally I looked at the nerf on divine favor. The nerf on divine power and I said they broke CodZilla. After I while I contented myself that a spell with +3hit/dam with anything is better than +2hit/+4dam with one type of weapon and a 4 feat investment. I also got looking at divine power and I was like.. Luck bonus?? What? This is awesome.
So now Codzilla can have a +6 enhancement bonus to STR, +4 size bonus to str, +6 luck bonus to str, +3hit/dam and Bozilla with changes to weapon size can just skip righteous might and prep something else in those slots since he wont' get a bonus for size and it's easier to pick the right mighty bow if you can't get one that resizes. He still gets access to GMW and magic vestment, so I think the cleric is just about as powerful as he used to be, but not in the same way.
That being said, I think a mystic theurge played correctly can be a huge boon to a group. I think focusing on group buffs for the fighters, mass enlarge person, mass bear's endurance/bull strength, haste, etc. and no save/partial save debuffs like RoE, enervation, waves of exhaustion/fatigue, and some control walls/clouds/glitterdusts while still being able to heal and buff say the fighter's weapon with GMW & Keen edge, archer with flame arrows, etc would be a great tactic for that character. That being said I played a mystic theurge in beta and it was kind of boring, but we didn't get very high in levels. I think it's a better class for someone to take as a cohort than to play yourself.
He does make a fair point...lower level Mystic Theurges can be a bit of a drag to play.
[...] So now Codzilla can have a +6 enhancement bonus to STR, +4 size bonus to str, +6 luck bonus to str, +3hit/dam and Bozilla with changes to weapon size can just skip righteous might and prep something else in those slots[...]What is Bozilla?
And Codzilla does not get +6 luck bonus to str. They get luck bonus on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
The Strength bonus doesn't apply to CMB and CMD. Only to Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks.
What spell give +6 enhancement bonus to STR?
Most high level melee characters will get a +6 item to strength, is that what you mean?
wow.. so not on attack and damage rolls just on skill checks.. that is.. terrible :) Yes I was referring to a +6 str item.
I guess I got too excited when I realized it was a luck bonus to read the entry :)
Bozilla = my name for CodZilla with a bow. I can't spell today I guess.
Either that or maybe bo staff skills.. nunchuk skills.. computer hacking skills..
Edit: So Codzilla is dead. I guess it's back to the old artillery cleric. spiritual weapon, extended SW, empowered SW, Maximized/heightened SW, extended maximed SW, and.. heightened sanctuary.
Bowzilla = Codzilla with a mighty composite longbow
Thanx for the info.
Belt of physical perfection +6, divine power +6, righteous might +4 = hard dude
Hard indeed :-)
So back on topic. If you want to play a melee cleric and don't really care about high level spells you might want to pick some levels fighter or paladin. Once you hit level 9 you will have righteous might. If you only play the game up to level 12 you might want to multi-class.Multi-class or not is a matter of taste.
wow.. so not on attack and damage rolls just on skill checks.. that is.. terrible :)
No DP does give you a bonus on attack and damage rolls but the str bonus is only on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks. Not on str.
wow.. so not on attack and damage rolls just on skill checks.. that is.. terrible :)No DP does give you a bonus on attack and damage rolls but the str bonus is only on Strength checks and Strength-based skill checks. Not on str.
good.. I was hoping that didn't get nerfed. I was already plotting out a dungeoncrasher varient cleric to take advantage of the str checks :)
Just as the question asks above. Is it worth it?
As you can see from some of the responses - there are optimization arguments that suggest there are 'less winning' multi-class combos and some stronger multi-class combos.
But for some of us (maybe many of us) RPGs are not about creating the numerically superior <insert class here>. They are about creating characters we enjoy playing. For me, I'll take unusual and intriguing multi-class combos over single classes any day... because I enjoy the versatility and odd mixes.
Just as the question asks above. Is it worth it?
Thanks
I think it can be. But it will usually mean a slight change in your roll in the group. But if the group has a dedicated say arcanist a second one, say a wizard, who dips into fighter can work well. Don't even concider cap stone abilities most of the time you will never even see them, and if you do you might anyway with just a few levels in another class. I mean if your game goes to level 25, well 2 levels in rogue wont keep your fighter from his cap stone abilities or his chance to use them. But if you game stops at level 18, well you never would have seen those cpa stone powers anyway.
Personally I think non-casters will see the most gain from doing it, but a well planned out and thought out caster multiclass can leave you with a powerful character that is fun to play as well.
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Just as the question asks above. Is it worth it?As you can see from some of the responses - there are optimization arguments that suggest there are 'less winning' multi-class combos and some stronger multi-class combos.
But for some of us (maybe many of us) RPGs are not about creating the numerically superior <insert class here>. They are about creating characters we enjoy playing. For me, I'll take unusual and intriguing multi-class combos over single classes any day... because I enjoy the versatility and odd mixes.
That's the problem though. I am all for interesting and intrigueing characters, but with 3E multiclassing, some option, regardless on how cool they sound, are just bad. When I say bad, I mean ineffective. they do not pull their own weight, are not able to succeed at tasks reasonably, and/or are not mechanically sound, even if the concept is. A good example is the Mystic Theurge, which in my experience, is terrible (3.0 - PF version). It does not accomplish what I want from the class and instead turns into a drain on each of the classes needed to enter it. I don't hate it, or think everyone else should avoid it, just that it fails me.