Quick question.
If you are firing an arrow at a critter who is in combat with allies do you suffer both -4 to hit from firing into melee *and* does the critter get the +4 AC bonus from soft cover effectivly stuffing the archer?
I'm leaning towards yes it does which is really going to annoy people without precise shot...
Quick question.
If you are firing an arrow at a critter who is in combat with allies do you suffer both -4 to hit from firing into melee *and* does the critter get the +4 AC bonus from soft cover effectivly stuffing the archer?
I'm leaning towards yes it does which is really going to annoy people without precise shot...
Depends on the angle of fire. If his ally is between the shooter and the enemy, then yeah, he acts like cover just like any other obstacle. If the shooter is at an angle where the ally would not be a hindrance to the shot then they simply get the -4 from firing into combat. Precise shot is a beautiful thing if the shooter has it, but if the ally is in the way it will still give the enemy a +4 cover bonus.
Quick question.
If you are firing an arrow at a critter who is in combat with allies do you suffer both -4 to hit from firing into melee *and* does the critter get the +4 AC bonus from soft cover effectivly stuffing the archer?
I'm leaning towards yes it does which is really going to annoy people without precise shot...
It depends.
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
If the line passes through a square with a creature, the target has soft cover. However, be careful with your position relative to the enemy's position. Sometimes the environment isn't a 2D grid -- sometimes you're above/below a target and things change.
But generally speaking, in a narrow, cover-filled dungeon, archery should be fairly difficult against high AC targets.
Quick question.
If you are firing an arrow at a critter who is in combat with allies do you suffer both -4 to hit from firing into melee *and* does the critter get the +4 AC bonus from soft cover effectivly stuffing the archer?
I'm leaning towards yes it does which is really going to annoy people without precise shot...It depends.
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).If the line passes through a square with a creature, the target has soft cover. However, be careful with your position relative to the enemy's position. Sometimes the environment isn't a 2D grid -- sometimes you're above/below a target and things change.
But generally speaking, in a narrow, cover-filled dungeon, archery should be fairly difficult against high AC targets.
Yea, this is what I thought but if the archer is to one side and can join corners to at least one face without allies in the way then there is no penalty due to cover, correct?
Quick question.
If you are firing an arrow at a critter who is in combat with allies do you suffer both -4 to hit from firing into melee *and* does the critter get the +4 AC bonus from soft cover effectivly stuffing the archer?
I'm leaning towards yes it does which is really going to annoy people without precise shot...
Don't quote me... but I'm pretty sure the soft cover is only a issue if you are firing through one characters square to hit an enemy behind it. The precise shot feat just means you will not hit an ally as you are aiming not to thus the shot will miss all together. If you fire through an enemies square to hit another enemy... you always have that chance of hitting the first enemy instead. (As long as you hit its ac)
Were you to fire from an angle that allows your arrow to not pass through another creatures square... precise shot means you are golden even if that enemy is in melee combat with a pc.
For archers firing down a corridor past allies, combat has always been... problematic.
EditDang - got ninja'd by three posts. I take too long to type.
Yea, this is what I thought but if the archer is to one side and can join corners to at least one face without allies in the way then there is no penalty due to cover, correct?
Not exactly sure what you mean by join corners, but assuming an archer typically aims for center of mass, I'd say that they need to be clear to fire from the center of their square to the center of the enemy's square. If not they're firing at a covered enemy, if it's close and there are special circumstances, just lower it to a +2 bonus instead of a +4.
Not exactly sure what you mean by join corners, but assuming an archer typically aims for center of mass, I'd say that they need to be clear to fire from the center of their square to the center of the enemy's square. If not they're firing at a covered enemy, if it's close and there are special circumstances, just lower it to a +2 bonus instead of a +4.
Yea, it wasn't very well explained was it! Using the PF rules it mentions the drawing lines from a corner thing in the comabat section. Brain thinking things but forgeting to tell fingers to type it.
I was going to lower/ignore it anyway if the critter is large or bigger which makes sense to me.
Not exactly sure what you mean by join corners, but assuming an archer typically aims for center of mass, I'd say that they need to be clear to fire from the center of their square to the center of the enemy's square. If not they're firing at a covered enemy, if it's close and there are special circumstances, just lower it to a +2 bonus instead of a +4.
Yea, it wasn't very well explained was it! Using the PF rules it mentions the drawing lines from a corner thing in the comabat section. Brain thinking things but forgeting to tell fingers to type it.
I was going to lower/ignore it anyway if the critter is large or bigger which makes sense to me.
If the enemy is large vs medium size creatures, our group typically ignores the cover part. Considering the requirement for large is usually 9' or taller then a good portion of the creature will be above the head of a medium sized creature. Firing for the center of mass in that case, you'd be aiming above your ally's heads in my opinion (assuming that medium only comes up to the creature's waist or so).
Running a Star Wars (D6 and D20) and D20 Modern games for over 10 years, I ran into these issues nearly every fight and penalizing people too much for firing into melee was detrimental to the game. The d20 rules work very well in most cases, but there are alot of 'well, what if...' situations with ranged that just arent covered. I found it much easier to just do an all or nothing setup where, if the character knows he's firing through an ally he's gonna get the full penalty, if he takes that 5 ft step to the right and has a clear shot, he'll do that. Large creatures are easy to hit, small creatures are more difficult due to allies getting in the way. It works quite well.
Thanks all.
Unless something wierd can be thrown into the mix I guess its covered.
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firing in combat with allies do you suffer both -4 to hit from firing into melee *and* does the critter get the +4 AC bonus from soft cover effectivly stuffing the archer?Yes both apply (total of 8 difference in AC when you combine the -4 to hit and +4 to AC.)
Exactly.
Precise shot removes the former.
Improved precise shot removes the latter (among other things).
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XXXXXXXX X = WALL
XXOMXXX
XXX XXX O= ORACLE
XXX XXX M=MAGUS
XXX XXX F=FIGHTER
XXX XXX
XXXFXXXIf we assume the Magus and the Oracle are FIGHTING each other (engaged in Melee)
but the FIGHTER cannot see the Oracle (she has TOTAL cover from the fighter) Does the FIGHTER take the -4 penalty for firing into Melee?
Yes, if he does not have Precise Shot.