How does everyone feel about the power balance between these two classes?
Pathfinder has introduced some powerful Fighter Feats and with Fighters gaining a Feat at every level do we feel these Feats are enough to make the Fighter a viable build compared to the Paladin?
The Paladin has the same hit die, better saves, and a boost to those saves equal to his Charisma modifier.
He has immunity to Fear* and can help others close by; And then comes immunity to Diseases, Charms* and Compulsions* [* All the effects that the Fighters usually has issue with via a poor Will save]
Then we have swift speed self-healing and the ability to remove Diseases, Poisons, Curses and enchantment effect from himself and others.
Channel Positive Energy.
Aligned weapons and Bonded weapon boosts that last forever.
Some Spells.
Smite... well a lot has been said about smite evil already [let’s leave that debate for now]
I appreciate those who play Fighters can pick and choose their Feats and therefore control their characters direction and feel, but are any combination of them good enough to compete with the incredible package that the Paladin receives?
I appreciate those who play Fighters can pick and choose their Feats and therefore control their characters direction and feel, but are any combination of them good enough to compete with the incredible package that the Paladin receives?
Yes.
What's missing is a mention of the Fighter's new Bravery Ability. It's not nearly as good as the Paladin's immunity, but he's not as much of a coward as he once was.
I appreciate those who play Fighters can pick and choose their Feats and therefore control their characters direction and feel, but are any combination of them good enough to compete with the incredible package that the Paladin receives?Yes.
Care to share?
What's missing is a mention of the Fighter's new Bravery Ability. It's not nearly as good as the Paladin's immunity, but he's not as much of a coward as he once was.
Good point, I forgot about that, but it's only a little plus for the Fighter.
Fighter is gonna hit better, damage better, have more AC and a bunch more "tricks"(fighterfeats).
Yes they do compare.
A paladin can handle himself awesomely in combat, but not as good as a fighter. (unless fighting evil dudes)
I have to say, they play diffent. Sure paladins are cool and powerful (finally) but the fighter is far more versatile and has many more tricks then a paladin, he also has better AC and can move faster in armor.
Also, not everyone wants to play a LG soldier of the gods.
I appreciate those who play Fighters can pick and choose their Feats and therefore control their characters direction and feel, but are any combination of them good enough to compete with the incredible package that the Paladin receives?
Paladin can hit hard, and heal. But he doesnt hit nearly as hard as the fighter, his ac will only be as high when smiting (and then only if the fighter isnt going for as high as possible AC). The paladin will never trip/disarm/sunder/bullrush/standstill as well as the fighter and therefore does not have the battlefield control a fighter can have (take a figher with a reach weapon, improved trip/standstill and the enlarge person spell and you have a battlefield where things move at his discretion and not otherwise.
Weapon training, weapon focus, weapon spec (and greater versions) mean the fighter can hit harder more consistently. The critical feat tree means a high level fighter can do some wicked things that a paladin cannot compare to at level 11+. So yes a properly built fighter can definately compater to a paladin. Just not in every way. If you are taking on fear causing evil outsiders and are in need of healing, i would probably prefer to have a paly around, but the fighter can just do so much more (and is less of a roleplay drag on the party) I would prefer it 90% of the time.
Yeah that faster movement is huge for the fighter... he doesn't have to get mithral all the time. In addition that weapon training is always active from level 5 on, as is any specialization the fighter does. If we were to compare damage over time I think that would really make a difference since it is on every swing the fighter makes.
still the paladin makes for more headaches on me as a DM. its a good thing i can get him to throw away party loot by making it morally questionable. (he destroyed 12 masterwork daggers that had poison injecting springs in the hilt, oh the look on my other PCs sad little faces).
And there is the big downside of the paladin in my book... the alignment/code really can be a pain for all parties involved. Want to have a campaign where the party must do morally questionable things to succeed? Ally with a lesser evil to take out a greater one? Not take the obvious (read: honorable) route to deposing the despot? Sorry, you have a paladin, that means everyone has to follow his rules or he will be forced to smite you. Enjoy...
As for the paly that destroyed the gear, such behavior generally merits a knife in the back or a slit throat while sleeping in my book, but thats just me. Mr destroy party loot cuz he's lawful stupid would not last long in my party, thats for certain.
Reposted from the last time this was brought up:
After doing a whooooole lot of math, and some data-scraping from the SRD section on monsters, I have to revise my opinion on Smite. It's powerful, without a doubt, but when I ran the numbers against a regular Fighter, I was very surprised indeed to see just how close they came at every level. I built as close to an ideal damage output fighter and ideal damage output paladin as I could, with full feat progressions, equipment, everything that might affect their damage, and at almost every level the average damage output of each character per round for a full attack or vital strike was within two to four percent.
Against an ideal opponent, the Paladin is doing considerably more damage per round (30-50% more), but, based on the proportions of foes in the MM, all that extra smite damage ends up averaging out. (If you're curious, one third of enemies in the MM are evil in alignment and roughly 1/6th are Undead, Outsiders with the evil subtype, or Evil Dragons.)
I made a quick table showing the damage output for a two weapon Fighter and a two weapon Paladin (both of which MASSIVELY outdamage the equivalent characters using two-handed weapons). Just for fun, I threw the max DPS line on for a Paladin facing a foe for which they receive double damage on their smite (but please keep in mind the average, that max damage line might look impressive, but it's balanced out by the other 5/6ths of the time, when the Paladin isn't facing their ideal opponent).
sometimes it feels like the paladin in my group is stealing everyone else's thunder. once the paladin declares smite evil, he pretty much has near the power of the other 3 PCs combined at level 8 on a point buy in system.
Against foes that are simply evil he should only be slightly exceeding the fighters damage, which, admittedly, is nice. Against foes that fall into one of the double damage categories the paladin is extremely powerful, and does steal some thunder from the rest of the party as you've described. On the other hand, there are plenty of situations where other classes shine just as much and those high damage smite targets represent a small fraction of the total list of foes.
my real problem comes from spellcasters, if i give them feats and stats high enough to have a reasonable chance for the paladin to fail his save, well the rest of the party is in very deep trouble should that spellcaster target them.
Each of the primary melee types gets something that lets them function effectively vs casters in Pathfinder. For Paladins, it's their very high save bonuses. However, each of the different melee types can be overcome with some tactics. For the barbarian it's a matter of limiting their mobility, and avoiding using effects they can shrug off easily (will saves, nausea, fear, etc.). For a fighter you have to avoid closing to melee, where their Disruptive and Spellbreaker feats become effective. For paladins you have to avoid using spells with simple saves. Touch spells, rays, orbs, conjuration effects, anything that bypasses the save mechanic can be deadly.
Let's not forget that the Fighter only has 11-12 more Feats than the Paladin. The Paladin gets 10-11 himself.
Can those 11-12 Feats make up for all those Paladin Class abilities?
We seem to boil down the Fighter into "how much more damage" and "higher AC". Any experienced player will tell you that AC isn't everything, and Saves will literally save you more times in the long run than a few points of AC. High end monsters are going to hit you, period.
I see the swift self healing plus the amazing saves as very strong class abilities. I'm not saying the Fighter is rubbish, far from it, just that the extra Feats don't seem to level the strength of the Paladin.
The one thing a Fighter does have going for it is a larger variety of builds because of the extra Feats. So role-playing-wise, the Fighter does have more scope for customizing to personal taste, which is no bad thing, and as others have said the alignment issues will vary from DM to DM.
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Let's not forget that the Fighter only has 11-12 more Feats than the Paladin. The Paladin gets 10-11 himself.
Can those 11-12 Feats make up for all those Paladin Class abilities?
We seem to boil down the Fighter into "how much more damage" and "higher AC". Any experienced player will tell you that AC isn't everything, and Saves will literally save you more times in the long run than a few points of AC. High end monsters are going to hit you, period.
I see the swift self healing plus the amazing saves as very strong class abilities. I'm not saying the Fighter is rubbish, far from it, just that the extra Feats don't seem to level the strength of the Paladin.
The one thing a Fighter does have going for it is a larger variety of builds because of the extra Feats. So role-playing-wise, the Fighter does have more scope for customizing to personal taste, which is no bad thing, and as others have said the alignment issues will vary from DM to DM.
The Fighter can also move full distance in Plate armour, a paladin can't. The Fighter can ignore DR without smiting, a Paladin can't. A Fighter can get +6 to hit and +8 damage on EVERY single attack thanks to Weapon training and Specialisation. A paladin can't. It's not just the feats that make the difference anymore.
Our 15th level fighter currently has six attacks per round at +23 to hit and +20 damage. The Paladin is way behind that, unless he smites. Which he can't do against every opponent.
Our 15th level fighter currently has six attacks per round at +23 to hit and +20 damage. The Paladin is way behind that, unless he smites. Which he can't do against every opponent.
I see what you're saying but this doesn't stop the Fighter failing the first Will save which the Paladin will laugh at. He can only attack at +23 and with +20 damage if he's still involved in the combat, and in high end combat I'm not convinced that that will always be the case.
I understand its very adventure/encounter dependant.
Our 15th level fighter currently has six attacks per round at +23 to hit and +20 damage. The Paladin is way behind that, unless he smites. Which he can't do against every opponent.
I see what you're saying but this doesn't stop the Fighter failing the first Will save which the Paladin will laugh at. He can only attack at +23 and with +20 damage if he's still involved in the combat, and in high end combat I'm not convinced that that will always be the case.
I understand its very adventure/encounter dependant.
One Ring of Mind Shielding and the problem is reduced. Plus, Iron Will helps out some on the Will Save.
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One Ring of Mind Shielding and the problem is reduced. Plus, Iron Will helps out some on the Will Save.
Our 15th level fighter currently has six attacks per round at +23 to hit and +20 damage. The Paladin is way behind that, unless he smites. Which he can't do against every opponent.
I see what you're saying but this doesn't stop the Fighter failing the first Will save which the Paladin will laugh at. He can only attack at +23 and with +20 damage if he's still involved in the combat, and in high end combat I'm not convinced that that will always be the case.
I understand its very adventure/encounter dependant.
So does having a paladin around. Those +4 to saves really add up.
So does having a paladin around. Those +4 to saves really add up.One Ring of Mind Shielding and the problem is reduced. Plus, Iron Will helps out some on the Will Save.
Our 15th level fighter currently has six attacks per round at +23 to hit and +20 damage. The Paladin is way behind that, unless he smites. Which he can't do against every opponent.
I see what you're saying but this doesn't stop the Fighter failing the first Will save which the Paladin will laugh at. He can only attack at +23 and with +20 damage if he's still involved in the combat, and in high end combat I'm not convinced that that will always be the case.
I understand its very adventure/encounter dependant.
True. ~shrugs~ I was just pointing out a way for the fighter to reduce the mind control issues. That is all. I happen to like BOTH the Paladin and the Fighter.
still the paladin makes for more headaches on me as a DM. its a good thing i can get him to throw away party loot by making it morally questionable. (he destroyed 12 masterwork daggers that had poison injecting springs in the hilt, oh the look on my other PCs sad little faces).
That I would say is a role playing choice of the player, not a requirement of the class. Those springs could have been removed, fairly easily as well.
I could see a valid argument against selling an unholy weapon, unless it was to the church so that they could destroy it.
Ally with a lesser evil to take out a greater one? Not take the obvious (read: honorable) route to deposing the despot? Sorry, you have a paladin, that means everyone has to follow his rules or he will be forced to smite you. Enjoy...
Well, the new code for the paladin allows him to work with evil creatures to combat a greater evil.
As for honorable route, that is usually a roleplay question, as most do not have the same definition of honor.
sometimes it feels like the paladin in my group is stealing everyone else's thunder. once the paladin declares smite evil, he pretty much has near the power of the other 3 PCs combined at level 8 on a point buy in system.
Smite Evil only works against one creature. Any other target is subject to a regular attack.
So, against the BBEG at the end of the adventure, yes it can be powerful, if the paladin can reach them.
If your BBEG is a spellcaster, they don't have to use direct attack spells against the paladin. They can control the terrain around him, to help neutralize him, such at Wall of Force, Fog Cloud, Solid Fog. Or they can simply move 30' and cast, while the paladin has to charge and hope he hits the BBEG with displacement and mirror image running.
Reposted from the last time this was brought up:
Say, did you ever make any headway on the other melee?
(I wonder if it's fair to compare the bard, too...)
Reposted from the last time this was brought up:Say, did you ever make any headway on the other melee?
(I wonder if it's fair to compare the bard, too...)
I made a little headway, but I got sidetracked somewhat. Got a new regular gaming night, some side jobs that have been eating up all my time, should have more free time this coming week though so I'll see if I can't turn out something useful on that.
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One Ring of Mind Shielding and the problem is reduced. Plus, Iron Will helps out some on the Will Save.
Our 15th level fighter currently has six attacks per round at +23 to hit and +20 damage. The Paladin is way behind that, unless he smites. Which he can't do against every opponent.
I see what you're saying but this doesn't stop the Fighter failing the first Will save which the Paladin will laugh at. He can only attack at +23 and with +20 damage if he's still involved in the combat, and in high end combat I'm not convinced that that will always be the case.
I understand its very adventure/encounter dependant.
Going into the inheritance Pathfinder got from 3.5 in PHBII is the feat steadfast determination. Fort saves aren't auto fails on a one, and add con to your will saves instead of wisdom. It does take endurance and iron will though, which could be a problem in and of itself.
sometimes it feels like the paladin in my group is stealing everyone else's thunder. once the paladin declares smite evil, he pretty much has near the power of the other 3 PCs combined at level 8 on a point buy in system.
my real problem comes from spellcasters, if i give them feats and stats high enough to have a reasonable chance for the paladin to fail his save, well the rest of the party is in very deep trouble should that spellcaster target them.
after level 9 i think the fighter catches up to the paladin and will generally outperform the paladin in fights against neutral baddies such as dire creatures and slimes and the like. however the paladin's swift self heals might give the paladin enough of an advantage to win.
neutral fighter vs. paladin toe to toe on a point buy in system i would imagine the fighter will win more often than not. this is because the fighter will have the offense and defense to wear down the paladin faster than he can heal. (i like the change to power attack). so long as the fighter was created to fight a paladin...
improved disarm with improved unarmed strike and use that paladin's holy sword against him with duel wielding anyone?still the paladin makes for more headaches on me as a DM. its a good thing i can get him to throw away party loot by making it morally questionable. (he destroyed 12 masterwork daggers that had poison injecting springs in the hilt, oh the look on my other PCs sad little faces).
If he has a high saves stop attacking his saves so much. There are spells that dont require a save. Most battle field control spells dont use saves, and even if you make the same there is still some affect anyway. Using ranged touch attacks works well. Since the pally's mercies remove status affects, forcing him to be healer takes him out of the fight.
sometimes it feels like the paladin in my group is stealing everyone else's thunder. once the paladin declares smite evil, he pretty much has near the power of the other 3 PCs combined at level 8 on a point buy in system.Smite Evil only works against one creature. Any other target is subject to a regular attack.
So, against the BBEG at the end of the adventure, yes it can be powerful, if the paladin can reach them.
If your BBEG is a spellcaster, they don't have to use direct attack spells against the paladin. They can control the terrain around him, to help neutralize him, such at Wall of Force, Fog Cloud, Solid Fog. Or they can simply move 30' and cast, while the paladin has to charge and hope he hits the BBEG with displacement and mirror image running.
darn, ninja'd
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Every class has its pros and cons. I like that fighters are bad in the save department against casters. Fighters were never intended to be the perfect solo class. If you want to make will saves take a High Wisdom score and the iron will feat. Ditto for the other save categories. Paladins were given the save bonus because they need a fairly high non-combat stat (charisma) in addition to Str, Dex and Con. If your DM keeps throwing monsters or npc casters requiring repeated will saves at you all the time then maybe it might be a good idea to take a higher wisdom than dexterity or con score. The fighter is the King of martial damage and armor defense for the vast majority of the time. Other characters (rogues, wizards, paladins, ect.) can easily outshine a fighter for a specific encounter that it tailored to their expertise but unless you just overspecialize a fighter they are pretty effective regardless of the encounter.
still the paladin makes for more headaches on me as a DM. its a good thing i can get him to throw away party loot by making it morally questionable. (he destroyed 12 masterwork daggers that had poison injecting springs in the hilt, oh the look on my other PCs sad little faces).And there is the big downside of the paladin in my book... the alignment/code really can be a pain for all parties involved. Want to have a campaign where the party must do morally questionable things to succeed? Ally with a lesser evil to take out a greater one? Not take the obvious (read: honorable) route to deposing the despot? Sorry, you have a paladin, that means everyone has to follow his rules or he will be forced to smite you. Enjoy...
As for the paly that destroyed the gear, such behavior generally merits a knife in the back or a slit throat while sleeping in my book, but thats just me. Mr destroy party loot cuz he's lawful stupid would not last long in my party, thats for certain.
Does the Paladin have the 3,624 gold to compensate the rest of the party?
In any event, why did the rest of the party allow the paladin to just destroy those items?
How does everyone feel about the power balance between these two classes?
Pathfinder has introduced some powerful Fighter Feats and with Fighters gaining a Feat at every level do we feel these Feats are enough to make the Fighter a viable build compared to the Paladin?
The Paladin has the same hit die, better saves, and a boost to those saves equal to his Charisma modifier.
He has immunity to Fear* and can help others close by; And then comes immunity to Diseases, Charms* and Compulsions* [* All the effects that the Fighters usually has issue with via a poor Will save]
Then we have swift speed self-healing and the ability to remove Diseases, Poisons, Curses and enchantment effect from himself and others.
Channel Positive Energy.
Aligned weapons and Bonded weapon boosts that last forever.
Some Spells.
Smite... well a lot has been said about smite evil already [let’s leave that debate for now]
I appreciate those who play Fighters can pick and choose their Feats and therefore control their characters direction and feel, but are any combination of them good enough to compete with the incredible package that the Paladin receives?
Our party has a L5 fighter and a L5 paladin(played by myself). What I've witnessed in our first book of legacy of fire is that they are about the same. When the fighter gets to use her falcata she does a little more damage due to weapon specializaiton and weapon training and I believe it's +1. When my paladin gets to pull a mounted charge it does a lot more damage, but that's more fighting style than class vs class.
In general they both serve their purposes. If you want a flavorful holy warrior, play a paladin. If you want to be "the tank" play a fighter. Their AC and abilities are off the chart. The fighter in our party just took iron will and now has the same will save as my paladin including the charisma bonus, just for the record, so I don't see her failing many will saves and running away.
Actually in our game last night, the MVP was again the bard, rolling nothing but 6's for frost damage the entire night on flamebrother salamanders, and the paladin's holy steed, Miracle, doing more damage than anyone else on the board. Fighter and pally kept missing all night. Our mystic theurge may have done more damage with ray of frost than the pally/fighter did, didn't really keep track.
Pretty certain I did, considering I hit the large one for about 30 points on him alone... got a couple of the small ones for about 9 total I think. To be fair though I had those spellmight bracers which was adding a d6 to all my spell damage. However you and the fighter were not situated well to handle the type of combat we ended up doing.
The fighter is definitely looking at point blank and precise shot as two feats fairly soon... which is good when I helped her map out her choices this was about the point she was looking at getting them anyways.
Which is what is going to help the fighter over the paladin in the long run: The paladin is set on mounted combat, the fighter is great in melee, and after two feats and a few levels will be good at ranged combat too, when she'll become even better at melee, and expand on a few other things as well (defense options... her mundane shield is going to end up giving her a +4 bonus and it's just a buckler).
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The Paladin has some freaking awesome powers sure... lets look at those freaking awesome powers and their actual usefulness.
Aura of Good- yeah ok, no benefit at all in 99.9999999% of combats.
Detect Evil- occasionally beneficial in circumstances where you are unsure of your opponents alignment. Useless against Demons, Devils, Undead, Chromatic Dragons and a whole host of monsters that are always evil, because we KNOW they are evil.
Smite Evil- very cool ability, but very limited in the number of uses. Of VERY limited use in campaigns that focus on evil outsiders or undead, as the number of combats that could utilize this effect far outweigh the number of uses available.
Divine Grace- Okay, freaking awesome! No doubt about it this class ability rocks.
Lay On Hands- okay, very freaking awesome. Yes this ability rocks.
Aura of Courage- very cool, but extremely limited use. Great if fighting dragons and mummies. But useless 99% of the time.
Divine Health- very cool and very limited. Can make an appearance occasionally in a campaign.
Mercy- freaking cool make Lay on Hands even more useful. Are rather limited versatility however. Regardless, when needed they will be awesome.
Channel Positive Energy- Pretty cool! Very useful in addition to Lay on Hands.
Divine Bond- MUCH better than before and now totally rocks
Aura of Resolve- Very cool. Some potential here, but again limited use.
Aura of Justice- Very cool but suffers same limitations as Smite Evil
Aura of Faith- Potentially very useful. Minor limitations.
Aura of Righteousness- darn cool and useful.
Holy Champion- Very nice boost for the highest level.
So, simply put all of these abilities are awesome cool. Some have limited versatility however. The Paladin is a fantastic combatant vs evil, but in circumstances where the enemy is neutral or even good, the Paladin will be hamstrung.
If you want to totally focus on destroying evil then the Paladin is the obvious choice.
If you want a character that has any other focus at all, or just more versatility, then the Fighter is the choice.
I would say that in the right campaign the Paladin will be the obvious winner in "best class." But in the right campaign the Fighter will be the winner in "best class."
Krome you forgot spells. It doesn't seem like a huge thing but the paladin does get several very nice spells on his spell list.
Cure light wounds, resist energy, lesser restoration, Divine Favor, Zone of Truth, Shield Other, Delay Poison, Remove Paralysis, Dispel Magic, Greater Magic Weapon, Remove Curse, Remove Blindness, Death Ward, Neutralize Poison, Holy Sword, Dispel Evil, Dispel Chaos, Restoration
A very nice list with good spells on every level, even with his slightly reduced caster level (much better than it use to be for sure) he always has something to contribute with his spells.
I would note that Greater Magic Weapon and Divine Weapon Bond together are a very nice combination that could quickly give you a weapon that is rather powerful out of a mundane anything you pick up.
I'm not saying this makes the paladin better than the fighter, only that it should be noted.
Additionally on smite evil it should be noted that it does increase your AC even if the target isn't evil, and even if the target isn't evil you still bypass DR for the target -- which could be very useful against elementals, golems, and other creatures... (makes you wonder if they really mean any DR as the Tarrasque has some really nice DR/epic).
Krome you forgot spells. It doesn't seem like a huge thing but the paladin does get several very nice spells on his spell list.
Cure light wounds, resist energy, lesser restoration, Divine Favor, Zone of Truth, Shield Other, Delay Poison, Remove Paralysis, Dispel Magic, Greater Magic Weapon, Remove Curse, Remove Blindness, Death Ward, Neutralize Poison, Holy Sword, Dispel Evil, Dispel Chaos, Restoration
A very nice list with good spells on every level, even with his slightly reduced caster level (much better than it use to be for sure) he always has something to contribute with his spells.
I would note that Greater Magic Weapon and Divine Weapon Bond together are a very nice combination that could quickly give you a weapon that is rather powerful out of a mundane anything you pick up.
I'm not saying this makes the paladin better than the fighter, only that it should be noted.
Additionally on smite evil it should be noted that it does increase your AC even if the target isn't evil, and even if the target isn't evil you still bypass DR for the target -- which could be very useful against elementals, golems, and other creatures... (makes you wonder if they really mean any DR as the Tarrasque has some really nice DR/epic).
Abe, maybe we should do up a campaign log since we actually have a fighter and paladin both in the group. That could end a lot of debate on the whole fighter vs paladin thing. It seems to me we both have a chance to shine, typically mine happens to be a x3 crit smite evil on undead or evil outsiders.. not my fault it's a nat 20 :)
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Krome you forgot spells. It doesn't seem like a huge thing but the paladin does get several very nice spells on his spell list.
Cure light wounds, resist energy, lesser restoration, Divine Favor, Zone of Truth, Shield Other, Delay Poison, Remove Paralysis, Dispel Magic, Greater Magic Weapon, Remove Curse, Remove Blindness, Death Ward, Neutralize Poison, Holy Sword, Dispel Evil, Dispel Chaos, Restoration
A very nice list with good spells on every level, even with his slightly reduced caster level (much better than it use to be for sure) he always has something to contribute with his spells.
I would note that Greater Magic Weapon and Divine Weapon Bond together are a very nice combination that could quickly give you a weapon that is rather powerful out of a mundane anything you pick up.
I'm not saying this makes the paladin better than the fighter, only that it should be noted.
Additionally on smite evil it should be noted that it does increase your AC even if the target isn't evil, and even if the target isn't evil you still bypass DR for the target -- which could be very useful against elementals, golems, and other creatures... (makes you wonder if they really mean any DR as the Tarrasque has some really nice DR/epic).
Abraham,
How sure are you about this? The Smite Evil text contradicts itself win two paragraphs. In one it says "Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.", but in the second it says this "If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect."Now, clearly these two sentences on their own cannot both be correct, so looking at it further, the first paragraph has just talked about the special benefits you get for smiting evil outsiders and undead. My interpretation is that it is trying to say that regardless of which type of evil you smite (Regular or Super-Evil) it will ignore DR, but if you smite non-evil it has absolutely no effect.
Granted, this is all IMHO, but it could stand being clarified.
A worthy idea, we'll take notes of the combat at the next game so we can post them up here. Should be plenty of opportunities in the current book.
Additionally on smite evil it should be noted that it does increase your AC even if the target isn't evil, and even if the target isn't evil you still bypass DR for the target -- which could be very useful against elementals, golems, and other creatures... (makes you wonder if they really mean any DR as the Tarrasque has some really nice DR/epic).
I do believe that you may have missed a phrase in the smite evil description
IF the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect
To me, that means that none of the powers of smite evil work if the target is neutral or good.
Edit: Ninja'd
Those could very well be the correct interpretations. I guess I never fully became aware of that one sentence at the end of the second paragraph. The placement of the sentence is odd to me though, they have all the stuff about the attack, then all the stuff about the defense, and then tack on the "oh by the way" at the end of the defense stuff.
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people seem to me meddling with the phrasing and getting confused...
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
This paragraph talks about the effects of smite evil against the selected target, notice the last two sentences... the first mentions that the damage is increase if the target is evil outsider, evil dragon or undead. but the second sentence mentions that regardless of the targets type, all damage bypasses any DR the target possesses.
In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.
This second paragraph then expands on the smite evil indicating that the AC of the paladin is increased vs the target of the smite and then finishes the section stating that if you target a non-evil creature the power is wasted for no effect.
ALL the powers of smite evil only affect the TARGET of the smite - even if 3 other evil creatures are attacking him he gets none of the benefits in relation to those creatures.
As the OP I urge you to re-read my original post where I asked for this thread to not get bogged down by yet another battle about Smite Evil...
As the OP I urge you to re-read my original post where I asked for this thread to not get bogged down by yet another battle about Smite Evil...
There's a lot of discussion here that's not about smite evil. Perhaps you should read the rest of the thread.
As the OP I urge you to re-read my original post where I asked for this thread to not get bogged down by yet another battle about Smite Evil...
You asked people to discuss the relative balance between Fighters and Paladins. For Paladins at least, Smite Evil is one of their major, defining abilities.
Not discussing Smite Evil would be like asking everyone to discuss fighters, but avoid discussing anything involving feats.
I understand you want to look at other aspects of the class as well (and people have been) but you can't really talk about how the two classes are balanced without looking at all of their abilities.
(Now, if you're asking everyone not to get bogged down in the details and discussion on the specific wording of Smite evil, I agree completely.)
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Krome you forgot spells. It doesn't seem like a huge thing but the paladin does get several very nice spells on his spell list.
Cure light wounds, resist energy, lesser restoration, Divine Favor, Zone of Truth, Shield Other, Delay Poison, Remove Paralysis, Dispel Magic, Greater Magic Weapon, Remove Curse, Remove Blindness, Death Ward, Neutralize Poison, Holy Sword, Dispel Evil, Dispel Chaos, Restoration
A very nice list with good spells on every level, even with his slightly reduced caster level (much better than it use to be for sure) he always has something to contribute with his spells.
I would note that Greater Magic Weapon and Divine Weapon Bond together are a very nice combination that could quickly give you a weapon that is rather powerful out of a mundane anything you pick up.
I'm not saying this makes the paladin better than the fighter, only that it should be noted.
Additionally on smite evil it should be noted that it does increase your AC even if the target isn't evil, and even if the target isn't evil you still bypass DR for the target -- which could be very useful against elementals, golems, and other creatures... (makes you wonder if they really mean any DR as the Tarrasque has some really nice DR/epic).
DOH! I had planned on putting spells at the end of the list! Yes the spells are uber cool to have.
Thanks :)
The point I was TRYING to make is that I believe that neither the fighter nor the paladin are actually BETTER than the other. That each has a different purpose. The paladin would make a very poor tank for a human enemy based game, for example. The fighter would be a poor choice for a campaign that focuses on evil outsiders.
:)
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people seem to me meddling with the phrasing and getting confused...
Smite Evil (Su): Once per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite. If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.This paragraph talks about the effects of smite evil against the selected target, notice the last two sentences... the first mentions that the damage is increase if the target is evil outsider, evil dragon or undead. but the second sentence mentions that regardless of the targets type, all damage bypasses any DR the target possesses.
In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.This second paragraph then expands on the smite evil indicating that the AC of the paladin is increased vs the target of the smite and then finishes the section stating that if you target a non-evil creature the power is wasted for no effect.
ALL the powers of smite evil only affect the TARGET of the smite - even if 3 other evil creatures are attacking him he gets none of the benefits in relation to those creatures.
I agree 100%. The problem was people looking at individual sentences and not at what was actually being said in the WHOLE description.
Clearly, if the target is not evil there is no effect. The comment about DR applies to all evil targets and not just the few types mentioned for extra bonuses.
As the OP I urge you to re-read my original post where I asked for this thread to not get bogged down by yet another battle about Smite Evil...There's a lot of discussion here that's not about smite evil. Perhaps you should read the rest of the thread.
I have read it. The focus has moved to Smite Evil, including direct quotes of the ability's detail. There are many other threads where you can discuss Smite Evil at length and in detail, maybe you should look for them, or start your own.
I kindly requested for the debate to remain general, which I feel is reasonable.
As the OP I urge you to re-read my original post where I asked for this thread to not get bogged down by yet another battle about Smite Evil...(Now, if you're asking everyone not to get bogged down in the details and discussion on the specific wording of Smite evil, I agree completely.)
Then we agree :)
So what the question really comes down to:
How many bonus feats are worth how much other abilities?
We have in the fighter's corner:
10 bonus feats -- some of which are fighter only
Weapon training (+4 one type, +3 another type, +2 a third type, +1 a final type)
Armor training (mithral like abilities, and increased movement in all armors)
Fear save boost
One good save
In the paladin's corner:
Several Immunities
Smite Evil
Save Boost (cha to saves)
Save enhancers for others
Divine Bond (either an Animal Companion, or a weapon buff)
Spells
Healing abilities
Two good saves
So what the question really comes down to:
How many bonus feats are worth how much other abilities?
We have in the fighter's corner:
10 bonus feats -- some of which are fighter only
Weapon training (+4 one type, +3 another type, +2 a third type, +1 a final type)
Armor training (mithral like abilities, and increased movement in all armors)
Fear save boost
One good saveIn the paladin's corner:
Several Immunities
Smite Evil
Save Boost (cha to saves)
Save enhancers for others
Divine Bond (either an Animal Companion, or a weapon buff)
Spells
Healing abilities
Two good saves
I took a look at both the classes. Neither has a dead level. Aside from full BAB and bonus feats/class abilities, they both get the usual feats on odd levels. If they don't get a new ability at each level, an existing ability gets improved. These classes are about equal in power, and both excell the other at their intended purpose. Barring one character being combat optimized more than the other, I don't see the fighter outdamaging the paladin vs undead/evil outsiders/evil dragons. Barring one character being combat optimized more than the other, I don't see the paladin outdamaging the fighter against non-evils, or when out of smites for the day.
As the OP I urge you to re-read my original post where I asked for this thread to not get bogged down by yet another battle about Smite Evil...There's a lot of discussion here that's not about smite evil. Perhaps you should read the rest of the thread.I have read it. The focus has moved to Smite Evil, including direct quotes of the ability's detail. There are many other threads where you can discuss Smite Evil at length and in detail, maybe you should look for them, or start your own.
I kindly requested for the debate to remain general, which I feel is reasonable.
You can't have a thread about class vs class without going into specifics. They are not arguing the effectiveness of it. They are just explaining how it works, and it is hard to ignore smite evil when it has a big neon sign that says "look at me!!!". The Smite evil discussion will run its course, and other topics will come up.
The only other solution I can think of is to choose a paladin ability and have a thread on that ability alone, then combine all the data from those threads, other than that you just have to deal with the neon sign.
On the fighter side I'm not so thrilled with the armor training. Don't get me wrong -- the movement issue was solved nicely for fighters (and shows nicely some of the perks to being a fighter) however having on the dex adjustment and penalty adjustment from it means that if a fighter wants to take advantage of this class feature he must pump his dex to some extent. Since a point buy natural limits how much you can put into dex since you need points for other things, this means a necessity of getting magical items in some form (either a belt, a book, or a permanent spell by some means) to take advantage of this.
While many classes have abilities that are dependent on a stat, either 1. all their abilities are tied to that stat (i.e. paladin, bard) or 2. the ability is still useful in both ways and number of times with the stat at a 10 minimum (such as the clerics channel energy... a minimum 3 per day with a CHA 10, and still heals fine if you go positive energy). The fighter's armor training is possibly the only class feature that doesn't fall into one of these two categories.
I'm not sure it's a huge thing, but it is something that jumps at me every time I look at the fighter class entry.