I'm not sure if I understand the Cleric's Osiron ability; could they theoritically cast it every round for an entire day? Clerics of Pharasma could rule entire desert regions if this is true...
From a storyteller standpoint, that would break challenges involving overcoming a lack of water.
-Perry
True. I've always treated it as 'You can manifest water based on how much is available from the environment'. So, I Cleric in the desert might only be able to produce an ounce or two at a time. A Cleric at sea on a ship could fill a barrel in a few seconds.
I know, it's not RAW, but I put it down as the spirits in the desert objecting to creation of water, and the spirits in the ocean being happy with water. :)
I'm not sure if I understand the Cleric's Osiron ability; could they theoritically cast it every round for an entire day? Clerics of Pharasma could rule entire desert regions if this is true...
From a storyteller standpoint, that would break challenges involving overcoming a lack of water.
-Perry
Or they could cast it till the guardians of the elemental plane of water get PO'd and decide to take revenge on the mortal constantly stealing water from their realm ;-).
Or they could cast it till the guardians of the elemental plane of water get PO'd and decide to take revenge on the mortal constantly stealing water from their realm ;-).I'm not sure if I understand the Cleric's Osiron ability; could they theoritically cast it every round for an entire day? Clerics of Pharasma could rule entire desert regions if this is true...
From a storyteller standpoint, that would break challenges involving overcoming a lack of water.
-Perry
three words...
command water elementalLook everybody it's a waterslide in the desert!
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for the low cost of 9000 gp you too can rule an entire desert realm
Decanter of Endless Water
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 9th
Slot —; Price 9,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
Description
If the stopper is removed from this ordinary-Looking flask and a command word spoken, an amount of fresh or salt water pours out. Separate command words determine the type of water as well as the volume and velocity.
* “Stream” pours out 1 gallon per round.
* “Fountain” produces a 5-Foot-Long stream at 5 gallons per round.
* “Geyser” produces a 20-Foot-Long, 1-Foot-Wide stream at 30 gallons per round.The geyser effect exerts considerable pressure, requiring the holder to make a DC 12 Strength check to avoid being knocked down each round the effect is maintained. In addition, the powerful force of the geyser deals 1d4 points of damage per round to a creature that is subjected to it. The geyser can only affect one target per round, but the user can direct the beam of water without needing to make an attack role to strike the target since the geyser's constant flow allows for ample opportunity to aim. Creatures with the fire subtype take 2d4 points of damage per round from the geyser rather than 1d4. The command word must be spoken to stop it.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, control water; Cost 4,500 gp
stick that in a fountain, or up in a water tower thing, and irrigate the neighboring area for....ever
-t
I'm not sure if I understand the Cleric's Osiron ability; could they theoritically cast it every round for an entire day? Clerics of Pharasma could rule entire desert regions if this is true...
From a storyteller standpoint, that would break challenges involving overcoming a lack of water.
-Perry
I believe any water created by this orison and not consumed within 24 hours disappears; so in theory you could spend all day creating it, but most of the effort would be wasted.
Just curious -- why would you want to live in the middle of the desert anyways? There's no agriculture to speak of (plants or livestock). Maybe mineral resources? Or just because you like wide-open spaces?
I believe any water created by this orison and not consumed within 24 hours disappears; so in theory you could spend all day creating it, but most of the effort would be wasted.I'm not sure if I understand the Cleric's Osiron ability; could they theoritically cast it every round for an entire day? Clerics of Pharasma could rule entire desert regions if this is true...
From a storyteller standpoint, that would break challenges involving overcoming a lack of water.
-Perry
Correct, but consumed would be used by a living thing in my book. A dozen acolytes could keep a 10 acre farm fully irrigated in the deepest part of the desert without two much effort on their part. I think that's what the OP was getting at, with cleric abilities, deep deserts are no longer water starved as long as any cleric exists in the area. You could easily farm a desert with enough low level clerics. I'd expect every farmer/food producer in a desert environment to take a level of cleric from a god/goddess of farming.
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Or they could cast it till the guardians of the elemental plane of water get PO'd and decide to take revenge on the mortal constantly stealing water from their realm ;-).I'm not sure if I understand the Cleric's Osiron ability; could they theoritically cast it every round for an entire day? Clerics of Pharasma could rule entire desert regions if this is true...
From a storyteller standpoint, that would break challenges involving overcoming a lack of water.
-Perry
I think I will have to go with that suggestion. I am trying to devise a home game in which a city's aquaduct is ruined, but that would be a non-issue with all of the clerics in the city. If there is a cumulative risk of attracting a water elemental, then that could impose a 'limit' of sorts. This could also apply to the 9000 GP Decanter of Water.
Or maybe it would just be easier to impose a home rule that Create Water is a 1st Level spell, not an Orison...
Correct, but consumed would be used by a living thing in my book. A dozen acolytes could keep a 10 acre farm fully irrigated in the deepest part of the desert without two much effort on their part. I think that's what the OP was getting at, with cleric abilities, deep deserts are no longer water starved as long as any cleric exists in the area. You could easily farm a desert with enough low level clerics. I'd expect every farmer/food producer in a desert environment to take a level of cleric from a god/goddess of farming.
I agree that "consumed" includes plant irrigation, but I'm still not convinced that would be practical.
Twenty 1st L clerics spending 8 hours a day doing nothing but casting Create Water repeatedly can produce 192,000 gallons of water. If you figure 1/16th of an inch of rain per day gives an annual rainfall of 22.8 inches (more than three times what Arizona gets, but less than Texas, Oklahoma or Kansas); that there are about 7.5 gallons to a cubic foot and 43,560 sq ft per acre, then 192,000 gallons of water can cover about 113 acres.
Is a ratio of 1 fully committed cleric to 5.64 acres practical?
20 clerics x 10 orisons per minute x 2 gallons x 480 minutes = 192,000 gallons
192,000 gallons / 7.5 gallons per cu ft = 25,600 cu ft of water
25,600 x 16 x 12 = 4,915,200 sq ft covered to a depth of 1/16th inch
4,915,200 sq ft / 43,560 sq st per acre = 112.84 acres
I suppose if the game were about farming I might be more concerned.
Also, in our world there aren't a lot of 1st level clerics around to populate these desert farms in any case.
I do think that desert challenges would be changed a bit. There wouldn't be as much contention over wells and the occasional oasis as there is in a non-magic world. Also, clerics and druids would be in high demand for caravans.
Would the caravans start to rely on clerics for water? What happens if the cleric is killed?
Correct, but consumed would be used by a living thing in my book. A dozen acolytes could keep a 10 acre farm fully irrigated in the deepest part of the desert without two much effort on their part. I think that's what the OP was getting at, with cleric abilities, deep deserts are no longer water starved as long as any cleric exists in the area. You could easily farm a desert with enough low level clerics. I'd expect every farmer/food producer in a desert environment to take a level of cleric from a god/goddess of farming.
A 10 acre farm isn't all that big for one family farm, let alone one with a dozen acolytes.
Certainly a cleric could irrigate a farm for a day easily, but unless they do it every day the ground would dry up instantly. Not the water already sucked up by the plants perhaps, but they need water daily.
Correct, but consumed would be used by a living thing in my book. A dozen acolytes could keep a 10 acre farm fully irrigated in the deepest part of the desert without two much effort on their part. I think that's what the OP was getting at, with cleric abilities, deep deserts are no longer water starved as long as any cleric exists in the area. You could easily farm a desert with enough low level clerics. I'd expect every farmer/food producer in a desert environment to take a level of cleric from a god/goddess of farming.A 10 acre farm isn't all that big for one family farm, let alone one with a dozen acolytes.
Certainly a cleric could irrigate a farm for a day easily, but unless they do it every day the ground would dry up instantly. Not the water already sucked up by the plants perhaps, but they need water daily.
Never said it wouldn't need to be done daily. Just said that a small family could easily do it if they all had enough ability. That's just with one level, a single 3rd or 5th level cleric could do it by himself in all likelyhood, with the bonus they get to the casting due from level. And you could get a force multiplier on the water with the proper irrigation system (stone cistern that get's the spell cast in it, with stone channels to lead out to the field and through it).
For this and similar reasons, I've house ruled create water up to 1st level, 8 gallons per level, doesn't mysteriously vanish.
Purify food and drink is still an orison, which is nearly as stupid-broken-amazing all by itself. Thirsty? Hold on, lemme go behind that tree with your waterskin.
The cost to do anything other than purely subsistence agriculture this way would be astronomical. You're spending almost a gold per second per first level cleric (price for a 1st level cleric casting a 0 level spell is 1x0.5x10 = 5g). That's 24,000 gold per acolyte per 8 hour work day.
Cheaper to just buy a decanter of endless water.
For this and similar reasons, I've house ruled create water up to 1st level, 8 gallons per level, doesn't mysteriously vanish.
Purify food and drink is still an orison, which is nearly as stupid-broken-amazing all by itself.
LOL,
It does make things easier on the adventuring party. I've had them urinate into a pot and cast purify on it to get drinking water, and also cast it on week old carrion to turn it back into edible meat.On the other hand, we do things like that with chemicals in the modern world, so I guess it's not really a far reach.
The cost to do anything other than purely subsistence agriculture this way would be astronomical. You're spending almost a gold per second per first level cleric (price for a 1st level cleric casting a 0 level spell is 1x0.5x10 = 5g). That's 24,000 gold per acolyte per 8 hour work day.
Cheaper to just buy a decanter of endless water.
Which was why I was taking the tack of a 1st level cleric level on the farmers themselves, like a family thing.
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Anyone who thinks that a desert is a field without water is sorely mistaken.
Once you've got past the deforestation and the leeching of nutrients out of the soil and the loss of anything like topsoil, the absence of nitrogen, a type of 'soil' that drains water too quickly to support most plants...
I'm no kind of expert but it's pretty clear that whilst access to Create Water might help to prevent desertification, and could contribute to development of verdant soils in a desert, bounteous supplies of water are not the be all and end all here.
Which was why I was taking the tack of a 1st level cleric level on the farmers themselves, like a family thing.The cost to do anything other than purely subsistence agriculture this way would be astronomical. You're spending almost a gold per second per first level cleric (price for a 1st level cleric casting a 0 level spell is 1x0.5x10 = 5g). That's 24,000 gold per acolyte per 8 hour work day.
Cheaper to just buy a decanter of endless water.
And that's why I said "other than purely subsistence agriculture" :)
I don't see a problem with some really whacko cleric starting up a farm in the middle of the desert by doing the exact same action every 6 seconds for hours and hours on end (other than the very real possibility of him going completely incurably mad). There would potentially be a problem with doing it large-scale, but fortunately the rules already provide for that by making the price entirely unfeasible.
However, there's some real cool plot/story possibilities in this. Mythological ones, even. Priest of a deity of water goes into the desert and strikes the ground and a fountain of water springs forth, ala Poseidon's gift to Athens.
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I'd worry less about what the Clerics can do, and more about what the (supposedly) much more common Adepts can do. Which is the same, in this case.
Presumably, the deserts of Golarion are deserts *despite* the presence of Clerics, Druids and Adepts who can create water all day long, since the game world does exist as written. Perhaps the 'Water Lords' of Thuvia or whatever are run by cults that keep desert springs flowing with the help of 1st level Adepts, constantly 'praying to keep the water spirits happy.'
The cost to do anything other than purely subsistence agriculture this way would be astronomical. You're spending almost a gold per second per first level cleric (price for a 1st level cleric casting a 0 level spell is 1x0.5x10 = 5g). That's 24,000 gold per acolyte per 8 hour work day.
Cheaper to just buy a decanter of endless water.
That brings up another thing though. I think the 'at will' mechanic broke the pricing structure for spells. Honestly. Think about it. The reason it costs 10 gold for a 1st level spell is there is a limited resource component to it. A caster (whatever class) only has X 1st level spells. And a 1st level cleric only has 1 or 2 per day in the first place.
Orisons, on the other hand, are entirely different. There is NO limit to them, they are unlimited. It's like saying 'I will sell you a grain of sand for 5gp' while standing in the middle of the Sahara desert.
I think at most an orison would drop down to a copper piece. It takes a standard action to cast the orison Create Water. That's once per round, 6 rounds per minute, 60 minutes per hour, 8 hours per day. Even that's overpay at 1cp per orison (6 * 60 * 8 = 2880cp = 28.8gps.
I think a more reasonable solution would be to hire an Adept and pay him a gold a week to cast water, just like you'd pay him for anything else.
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That brings up another thing though. I think the 'at will' mechanic broke the pricing structure for spells. Honestly. Think about it. The reason it costs 10 gold for a 1st level spell is there is a limited resource component to it. A caster (whatever class) only has X 1st level spells. And a 1st level cleric only has 1 or 2 per day in the first place.
The PHB prices also assume that you wandered into a town and found a random spellcaster and said 'cast this.'
I would expect that anyone using spell services on a daily basis would have one on staff, permanantly. The spellcaster gets paid *vastly* less than he would if he was getting paid on a per-spell basis, but he's got a steady job and doesn't have to sit around waiting for someone to wander into town who wants a spell he happens to have prepared that day cast.
And for Cantrips/Orisens and even 1st level spells, it's possible that temple acolytes and academy apprentices might be assigned to cast spells of this nature for the temple / academy's benefit as part of the cost of their tuition, bringing the cost down to 'thanks for your generous contribution to the faith / alumni association, please take this acolyte / apprentice and use him like a dog for the rest of the week for your irrigation project / experiment in refrigeration to store foodstuffs!'
experiment in refrigeration to store foodstuffs
Pff! Waste of time. Just have a cleric purify it next week. ;)
Orisons, on the other hand, are entirely different.
I disagree. You're paying for the cleric's time as much as you're paying for the spell slot. Actually, in the case of a cleric (or other religiously-powered caster) you're also paying for the deity in question's blessing. A cleric that's spending 8 hours a day casting create water for some farm in the middle of nowhere isn't spending those 8 hours a day doing something constructive for his church. It doesn't matter that it's not using up a limited resource; what matters is that you're using up a fairly rare resource (a spellcaster) for an entire day.
Orisons, on the other hand, are entirely different.I disagree. You're paying for the cleric's time as much as you're paying for the spell slot. Actually, in the case of a cleric (or other religiously-powered caster) you're also paying for the deity in question's blessing. A cleric that's spending 8 hours a day casting create water for some farm in the middle of nowhere isn't spending those 8 hours a day doing something constructive for his church. It doesn't matter that it's not using up a limited resource; what matters is that you're using up a fairly rare resource (a spellcaster) for an entire day.
I'll give you that for a cleric.
For an Adept though? Those are a dime a dozen.
I'd worry less about what the Clerics can do, and more about what the (supposedly) much more common Adepts can do. Which is the same, in this case.
Presumably, the deserts of Golarion are deserts *despite* the presence of Clerics, Druids and Adepts who can create water all day long, since the game world does exist as written. Perhaps the 'Water Lords' of Thuvia or whatever are run by cults that keep desert springs flowing with the help of 1st level Adepts, constantly 'praying to keep the water spirits happy.'
Adepts don't get unlimited cantrips per day. They are limited to 3 cantrips/ day.
I'll give you that for a cleric.
For an Adept though? Those are a dime a dozen.
Adepts aren't a dime a dozen. Their spells are no cheaper than clerics' or wizards' spells, aside from spell level differences.
Also, Adepts do not get unlimited 0 level spells.
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Correct, but consumed would be used by a living thing in my book. A dozen acolytes could keep a 10 acre farm fully irrigated in the deepest part of the desert without two much effort on their part. I think that's what the OP was getting at, with cleric abilities, deep deserts are no longer water starved as long as any cleric exists in the area. You could easily farm a desert with enough low level clerics. I'd expect every farmer/food producer in a desert environment to take a level of cleric from a god/goddess of farming.A 10 acre farm isn't all that big for one family farm, let alone one with a dozen acolytes.
Certainly a cleric could irrigate a farm for a day easily, but unless they do it every day the ground would dry up instantly. Not the water already sucked up by the plants perhaps, but they need water daily.
i was once obsessed with something similar in putting together a campaign. I found in a history book that it took a minimum of 15 acres to support a family of 5. this was bearly getting by. 30 acres was ideal. now this was around 1200, and without magic. now you still have to do all the planting and tending. not a life id want to live, if you could call it livivg.And casting the same spell over and over and over and over ect....................... AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!! my head exploded.
Well you could bring water to the desert and theoretically create an ecological change. Of course once the local druids catch wind of it there is going to be trouble
And the local bandits, warlords and the ruler of the Kingdom all wanting some of the revenue you are creating.
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These sorts of discussions make me laugh.
First thing to remember is this is a game and the mechanic or unlimited orisons/cantrips was designed to enhance a spellcasters options and make them more like spellcasters and less like one trip ponies at low level. The need for water is a very low level challenge and applying these sorts of conundrums, while sometimes facinating, will never actually effect gameplay. If they somehow do the DM can either modify them or have fun with them!
A player of my old group back in AD&D when we first went into the Temple of Elemental Evil decided to set off a decanter of endless water on the bottom layer of the dungeon while the party teleported out to the surface. 1 week later we came back expecting to find a flooded dungeon and with water breathing could pick over the corpses of the inhabitants with ease. However the DM decided that we had actually invented a new kind of threat and turned all the trolls in the dungeon into Aquatic Trolls! Since they kept dieing and coming back to life they eventually adapted into their water breathing cousins!
Secondly remember that this is a magical world. Deserts are present for a reason be that normal ecology or magical in nature, a DM is in his right to rule the spell fails or is reduced in the confines of a deserts boarders.
Finally spellcasters are rare. The average small town population only has about 1-3 clerics , 5-10 adepts and maybe 1 or 2 wizards. Thats alot of effort to provide sustenence for such a population of about 1000 and these people are not machines. They have lives and other duties besides creating.
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As side note: I houserule that create water requires an open vessal for holding water, either a cup, jug, or bowl and if not consumed within 1 minute dissipates. In 3.5 24 hours was fine but with Pathfinder 1 minute is more than enough to deal with any immediate threat such as a fire. Im sure the question will come up from my players If it does I'm ready to deal with it, if it doesnt I see no reason to change it.
These sorts of discussions make me laugh.
Laugh all you want, but for some people it's a valid concern and a worthwhile discussion, and your laughter is just seen as rude.
The need for water is a very low level challenge and applying these sorts of conundrums, while sometimes facinating, will never actually effect gameplay.
I don't believe the OP, nor most of the respondents, were talking about gameplay or challenges.
The discussion was about world building. Building worlds is about geography, geology, climatology, ecology, and even anthropology. It involves understanding something of natural sciences. And then, since it's a D&D world with magic, the DM must apply magical considerations to all the rest of his ologies.
The presence of this unlimited orison poses a challenge to world builders, and in that sense, it's a very valid discussion.
If they somehow do the DM can either modify them or have fun with them!
I think this is a rules forum here, not a houserules forum.
Dismissing the issue with a handwave by saying the DM can ignore the rule for the sake of messing with his players is counterproductive to the discussion.
Besides which, the idea is not really germaine to world building.
A player of my old group back in AD&D when we first went into the Temple of Elemental Evil decided to set off a decanter of endless water on the bottom layer of the dungeon while the party teleported out to the surface. 1 week later we came back expecting to find a flooded dungeon and with water breathing could pick over the corpses of the inhabitants with ease. However the DM decided that we had actually invented a new kind of threat and turned all the trolls in the dungeon into Aquatic Trolls! Since they kept dieing and coming back to life they eventually adapted into their water breathing cousins!
Again, this is a situational response to an encounter/challenge and therefore not really germaine to a world-building question, and it's also not within the realm of the rules.
While it is a neat story and sounds like fun, I'm not sure how it helps with this discussion.
Secondly remember that this is a magical world. Deserts are present for a reason be that normal ecology or magical in nature, a DM is in his right to rule the spell fails or is reduced in the confines of a deserts boarders.
More houserules that serve no purpose in this discussion.
I am fairly sure that everyone posting on this thread is well aware that the DM can rule whatever he wants.
But most of us want a reason. If the spell works, it causes problems with the ecology. On the other hand, if the spell doesn't work, we want to know why. If a cleric casts Create Water and all it produces is blue smoke, then he's going to want to know why, his superiors will want to know why, his followers will want to know why, and the town that depends on his water will want to know why. Some of them have means of divinations at their hands. Others might hire adventurers to quest for the answers.
Nobody will be satisfied with "well, it happened just because the DM said so".
Finally spellcasters are rare. The average small town population only has about 1-3 clerics , 5-10 adepts and maybe 1 or 2 wizards. Thats alot of effort to provide sustenence for such a population of about 1000 and these people are not machines. They have lives and other duties besides creating.
Thank you!
This response here is entirely valid and completely addresses the OP in a way that he should no longer be concerned.
You're right. Of course there is no way a handful of clerics could provide enough water to irrigate the amount of farmland any reasonable-sized community would need to survive. They might keep them from dying of dehydration, but farming is out of the question.
As side note: I houserule that create water requires an open vessal for holding water, either a cup, jug, or bowl and if not consumed within 1 minute dissipates. In 3.5 24 hours was fine but with Pathfinder 1 minute is more than enough to deal with any immediate threat such as a fire. Im sure the question will come up from my players If it does I'm ready to deal with it, if it doesnt I see no reason to change it.
Uh oh, more houserules.
Let's please go back to dealing with the discussion at hand, within the rules where possible.
As someone has already pointed out this really isn't much of a problem.
If we are seeing desert as something like this then you can create all the water you lie cos all you'll get is wet sand. Great for building castles, not so hot for growing anything.
Just curious -- why would you want to live in the middle of the desert anyways? There's no agriculture to speak of (plants or livestock). Maybe mineral resources? Or just because you like wide-open spaces?
For the casinos and the dancing girls of course!
Just curious -- why would you want to live in the middle of the desert anyways? There's no agriculture to speak of (plants or livestock). Maybe mineral resources? Or just because you like wide-open spaces?For the casinos and the dancing girls of course!
Mmmmmmm, Cheetah's...
(don't tell Mrs. Tarrasque I said that. She has armored teeth too, and a doubly-armored temper!)
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Yes the discussion does bring a smile to my face when I read them purly for the fact that it boarders on the real world vs fantasy arguments that cause alot of heated discussions over rules ever since D&D has been available. Just didn't know someone would feel so hurt by someone else showing their enjoyment of reading what they wrote.
The OP mentioned create water would "break challenges involving overcoming a lack of water." that to me is a game aspect. If it was about world building then technically it doesnt belong in the rules section either.
Modifying and having fun with rules is not a houserule - its about providing an enjoyable experience for your players. I wasn't talking about dismissing rules as my follow-up example explains - the creation of alot of water has an effect intended by the item but rather than just drowning the dungeon the DM used the option to be creative in providing a new challenge to the party. If a Desert is magically prevented from allowing water to be produced then a new challenge emerges for the players to overcome, where to get water if the cleric cant summon it!
This world building idea that this thread seems to be taking is probably more detrimental to the OPs request than my ramblings.
Nobody will be satisfied with "well, it happened just because the DM said so".
Your correct, if a DM "says so" he better have a good reason for it otherwise the player being denied will feel like hes being picked on. This has always been a detriment to the enjoyment of D&D and something I find I can help eleviate by posting my experiences here for others to read. and I will continue to do so.
Take the recent crypt of everflame adventure as a scenario (note spoiler warning for those who might be playing it dont click for details)
When my group encountered it they decided to fill up all their waterskins to take the magical liquid away thinking it would work just like a normal potion. However when they tried to drink a second time I told them it didnt work.
The look on their faces was of shock because to them it broke the mechanics of the game. There is no game mechanic that states you can only benefit from 1 cure effect per day, yet this adventure clearly breaks the rules in an effect of maintaining game balance.
Is it wrong? no,
Is it fair? probably not,
Does it need a ruling? no.
The fact remains however that I had trouble answering them with valid reason why it didnt work, for them "because i said so" wasnt enough and it didnt feel right for me either but I understand why it was ruled like that.
Lastly I do like offering my own houserules I admit, but its a perfectly good and viable way of differenciating between official rules and my own personal rulings. It saves on confusion for later threads while offering people a solution to their problem while waiting for an official ruling. While you may not see the value in them doesn't mean others don't and in fact others have posted their own house rules also.
(yes this is a light-hearted reply so please dont take it personally.)
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Just didn't know someone would feel so hurt by someone else showing their enjoyment of reading what they wrote.
When someone wanders into a thread where you are discussing something that interests you and says, 'ha, ha, it's a riot that anyone would even care about this stuff,' perhaps you'll have a better understanding of the situation.
Modifying and having fun with rules is not a houserule -
It really is. It doesn't matter if you are making the house rule to enhance the fun for your players, or for the heck of it. It's a house rule.
The goal of this thread is to discuss how the current rules affect the game-world, not to invent house rules to deal with those effects, nor to talk down to or laugh at fellow gamers who happen to find such discussions relevant.
In college, in a game with Steffan O'Sullivan, we spent a good hour discussing a map of the game-world, which had a river that just sort of petered out in the middle of a continent, crafting ideas to mount an expedition to that site, to 'find out where the water goes.' So yeah, find amusement in us if you wish, but a basic knowledge of geology, sociology, economics, etc. can *enhance* the game for some of us. It can even spur plot hooks and adventure seeds, such as the desert-dwelling 'Water Lords' of Golarion, who probably do use magical water-creating devices and magic to help maintain their dominance of those regions, by controlling access to sheltered sources of water.
They would also have a built-in motivation to seek out and squash any upstarts in their territory who begin using water-creating magic to cut in on their profitable business monopolies...
And this, working completely within the rules as written, and even using elements from the setting (the Water Lords, already said to wage battles over control of that resource), is how a contructive contribution to the thread works. If you have any such contributions to make, I'm sure we'd all love to hear them.
That's what this thread is for, after all.
As someone has already pointed out this really isn't much of a problem.
If we are seeing desert as something like this then you can create all the water you lie cos all you'll get is wet sand. Great for building castles, not so hot for growing anything.
I agree. Wet sand does not a farm make.
You'd need to introduce a large amount of things to make sand into soil that can grow things. Quickest way is to pile plant material and some dirt into a compost heap with some earth worms. Stir and water. Not sure how well this works in a hot and super dry environment like a desert though.
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ha, ha, it's a riot that anyone would even care about this stuff,' perhaps you'll have a better understanding of the situation.
See thats one of the fundamental issues with forums, people can read too much into an innocent and light-hearted comment. "I did not say I was laughing at you for caring about this stuff", I simply said "these sorts of discussions make me laugh"
The fact I then followed up my post with helpful and conversation shows I do in fact have some care about this stuff, otherwise I wouldnt have made the effort to post all that stuff.
The goal of this thread is to discuss how the current rules affect the game-world, not to invent house rules to deal with those effects,
See this is where we obviously differ from the topic.. and again your probably reading too much into the initial questions set by the OP.
So lets remind ourselves...
I'm not sure if I understand the Cleric's Osiron ability; could they theoritically cast it every round for an entire day?
This is the defining question set by the OP. And a simple answer to it would be Yes.
Clerics of Pharasma could rule entire desert regions if this is true...
This isnt a question but a comment based on the predicted answer to the OP question.
From a storyteller standpoint, that would break challenges involving overcoming a lack of water.
This is a rules question related to the consideration of the effect of Create Water when used to overcome a "lack of water" challenge (read encounter).
At no point is there any mention of world building or the effects of turning a desert into a lush farming and cultivated land.
Perry Snows second post does have a slight campaign /world building edge to it with the comment about a broken aquaduct system but even he suggests house ruling Create Water to a 1st level spell as a solution!!!
Again I have no problem with your discussion and the offence seems to stem from the missunderstanding of my first sentence for which I appologise.
In fact doesnt the act of world building imply the application of house rules to make the world unique?
An elf in the Forgotten Realms differs completely from an elf in a Darksun campaign and as such both have been "officially" house ruled to make them different from the standard elf in the Players Handbook!
for the low cost of 9000 gp you too can rule an entire desert realm
Decanter of Endless Water
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 9th
Slot —; Price 9,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
Description
If the stopper is removed from this ordinary-Looking flask and a command word spoken, an amount of fresh or salt water pours out. Separate command words determine the type of water as well as the volume and velocity.
* “Stream” pours out 1 gallon per round.
* “Fountain” produces a 5-Foot-Long stream at 5 gallons per round.
* “Geyser” produces a 20-Foot-Long, 1-Foot-Wide stream at 30 gallons per round.The geyser effect exerts considerable pressure, requiring the holder to make a DC 12 Strength check to avoid being knocked down each round the effect is maintained. In addition, the powerful force of the geyser deals 1d4 points of damage per round to a creature that is subjected to it. The geyser can only affect one target per round, but the user can direct the beam of water without needing to make an attack role to strike the target since the geyser's constant flow allows for ample opportunity to aim. Creatures with the fire subtype take 2d4 points of damage per round from the geyser rather than 1d4. The command word must be spoken to stop it.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, control water; Cost 4,500 gp
stick that in a fountain, or up in a water tower thing, and irrigate the neighboring area for....ever
-t
Decanters of Endless Water can lend itself to all kinds of mechanics.
Take for instance your Pathfinder Fighter with a better than average intelligence and maxed ranks in Knowledge (Engineering). Give him some Craft skills in woodworking ,metalworking, glassblowing, and alchemy. Now give him a Decanter of Endless Water.
Under those conditions... you can have a character use his engineering know-how and craft skills build a simple hydroelectric-generator that never runs out of power. Metalworking would potentially allow him to make magnets and coils of wire. With woodworking he could make water wheels to harness the unlimited water of the decanter. Glassblowing and metalworking together with a touch of alchemy could allow for simple lightbulbs.
Once you have electricity you could make semi-powerful electro-magnets.
Any technologies of years long past that did not require complex circuit boards might be possible.
Wow people are taking this way too seriously...DM_Blake chill it pls. Everyone is welcome to this and every other thread, and here's my 2c. Deserts aren't deserts solely because of a lack of flowing water. Many deserts have high mountainous peaks(the source of much fresh water in the world) and yet are still mostly bereft of water. Wind patterns, sun exposure, and geological make-up have as much an effect on the aridity of a region as a lack or presence of available water. My point is, even if your clerics did dump endless amounts of water into a desert area, it may just seep into the water table and disappear within a day, or be swept away by harsh searing(evaporating) winds. Some areas of a desert are just not arable, and there is yet another explanation for your scheming players.
I have given some thought to at will create water.
1) As others have mentioned, it takes more than water to make desert into farmland (or other life sustaining area).
2) The Gods of the clerics (or druids) would need to agree to allow the endless water to be created. They may not want mortals to tinker substantially with the environment or to risk it going back and forth to desert due to the availability or unavailability of the right type of caster.
3) The world has been around for a long time with at will use of cantrips. There likely are numerous reasons why there are not a lot of town/cities that rely on create water for survival.
Decanters of Endless Water can lend itself to all kinds of mechanics.
Take for instance your Pathfinder Fighter with a better than average intelligence and maxed ranks in Knowledge (Engineering). Give him some Craft skills in woodworking ,metalworking, glassblowing, and alchemy. Now give him a Decanter of Endless Water.
Under those conditions... you can have a character use his engineering know-how and craft skills build a simple hydroelectric-generator that never runs out of power. Metalworking would potentially allow him to make magnets and coils of wire. With woodworking he could make water wheels to harness the unlimited water of the decanter. Glassblowing and metalworking together with a touch of alchemy could allow for simple lightbulbs.
Once you have electricity you could make semi-powerful electro-magnets.
Any technologies of years long past that did not require complex circuit boards might be possible.
I would likely have a problem with any player who told me that this is what he planned on doing. I would want to know where he got his ideas, theories and R&D from.
I would have less problem with it if it was from a cabal wizards/scientists/etc. who had spent years on this, along with the reason why they had spend years on it. I believe that module D2 Seven Swords of Sin had such a set up.
Wouldn't this best be handled by making him roll a craft check, and using that check result to determine how long it takes him to come up with blue-prints?
Then he has to try to build it right, that's a whole other mess entirely.
I personally would way rather be flexible and let the player have fun with it, though it would be fairly easy to fail.
Possibly, but it would (and does) smack of metagaming to me.
Now, if this had happened are seeing various things while adventuring (say, like heated metal armor providing light, spending some time in or around some kind of waterwheel operation -saw/grain/etc.) I would have no real problem with it. But yes, the craft numbers would be high and costly.
I would still have problems with knowing to coil wire this way or that way for power generation or power transmission.
Four words my friend.
Divination / Trial and Error
One word - EUREKA!
Wouldn't this best be handled by making him roll a craft check, and using that check result to determine how long it takes him to come up with blue-prints?
Then he has to try to build it right, that's a whole other mess entirely.
I personally would way rather be flexible and let the player have fun with it, though it would be fairly easy to fail.
Possibly, but it would (and does) smack of metagaming to me.
Now, if this had happened are seeing various things while adventuring (say, like heated metal armor providing light, spending some time in or around some kind of waterwheel operation -saw/grain/etc.) I would have no real problem with it. But yes, the craft numbers would be high and costly.
I would still have problems with knowing to coil wire this way or that way for power generation or power transmission.
Metagaming.... seriously? I'm talking of a purely hypothetical situation you call metagaming?
By the by... I did say a fighter with a higher than average intelligence and maxed ranks in knowledge (engineering). By the time a character in game could afford a Decanter of Endless Water... his ranks would be quite high with skill focus perhaps pushing it even higher. Said fighter working metals would more than likely know of lodestones and how metal becomes magnetic. He would know of electricity and how it flows by seeing lightening harnessed by wizards or druids. Working on his training and schooling in engineering (books do exist ya know) he might just have that epiphany were he pieces it all together or is working on knowledge long forgotten that he has rediscovered.
I've been going over my old Mythbuster episodes during the past couple months (while waiting for the new episode... it knocked my socks off by the way ;).
There was one episode where old clay pots were found with traces of an acid inside, and a metal rod with wire wound around it. The only thing this could be is a battery.
They made some themselves, with period materials, and found that while the charge was incredibly small and random, it would actually work. Could've been used for things like electro-plating and such.
Now, granted.. the actual theory of electromagnetism and creating something even as powerful as a AA battery would take more research and breakthroughs in conventional scientific thought than a single person could be expected to do in a single lifetime.
However, if you took a long lived race (so one person could remain dedicated on a subject for longer than 50 years of testing and idea breakthroughs), and a relatively remote place where he could do his research in peace (not mid-adventuring).. well, I'm not against the idea of a Gnome named Tesla living in the game world.
An adventurer Fighter coming up with it on his own though? Not really.
If the player was really, really interesting in the concept, and had ideas that were mechanically sound (read: equivalent to magic items in power and usage), I might allow him to hear about the Gnome and quest to learn from him and use the mentioned skills to create some nifty things.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I've always treated it as 'You can manifest water based on how much is available from the environment'.
I know, it's not RAW
It doesn't go against RAW, because there is no rule "where" the water originates. In other words, it is entirely up to the GM which of these results are what is happening:
1) Water is created from nothing.
2) Water is created by displacing water from the environment.