Pathfinder Core Rules with Malhavoc Press 3.5 products


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Liberty's Edge

I'm starting a Pathfinder game in a campaign world of my own creation, and I am eager to use, and allow use of, all my Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, Arcane Might, Divine Might, etc., with it.

Does anyone here have enough experience with the Malhavoc Press products to make a knowledgeable guess or a first-hand observation that might help me out?


Pathfinder is designed to be extremely compatible with 3.5 products for exactly this kind of reason: they didn't want to invalidate all your previous purchases.

I have no experience directly with the books you name, but in general the only things that need to be done to convert a class are to update the hit dice based on the class's BAB (wizard BAB = d6, cleric BAB = d8, fighter BAB = d10; classes with higher hit dice may deserve consideration for keeping the higher hit die, as the barbarian does in core), updating the skill list (some skills got consolidated), and doing a quick pass through the class to make note of references to the core books that have changed (mostly spell effects).

If, after doing that, you determine that the class is too weak, you can look at adding stuff to it, but for a class that was reasonably balanced in 3.5, you should be OK.

Liberty's Edge

Thanks, Z! That will help with the classes and races.

The magic -- spells and such -- concerns me, too. Was there any power creep in those books? Does anyone know?


Again, I can't help you directly, but there were a lot of spell changes in Pathfinder. In particular, save-or-die and save-or-suck (hold person et al) spells mostly got changed to things like save-or-take-a-ton-of-damage and save-or-save-every-round-to-not-suck. Also, polymorph (and its pursuant abilities like wildshape) got significantly changed; they grant fixed stat bonuses and critter abilities from specific lists, now, instead of being a "find the most broken monster" minigame.

So, if there are save-or-die/suck spells or polymorph type spells in those books, you might want to give them a once-over and compare them to spells of similar levels in the Pathfinder rules.

Liberty's Edge

I have used several Malhavoc press books with Pathfinder in my Pathfinder campaign. Some of the places of Galarion are more exotic so I have little problem bringing in classes, spells, and feats that might have originated in those strange locales.

For instance, the island nation ruled by the Dragon. (I forget the name of it right now.) I've basically dropped in the Arcana Evolved classes. (Most classes from Arcana Evolved have additional feats due to the slightly different creation method used in that setting. If you allow a character to take an extra feat or talent, they should not also have traits.) I've also given the evolved template to most of the npcs that come from there.

I am currently working on a conversion for the Arcanist class from Iron Heroes, and hopefully it will be on par with the new Warlock class that was presented in Tome of Secrets. Most of the other classes from Iron Heroes can be inserted easily with the modifications suggested in the back of the book. All of these classes, except the Arcanist, have a special quality I call forego magic that gives them an ego rating based on the number of times they use their special class abilities (token abilities). An ego rating can prevent a character from using a magic item (which would make these classes overpowering). The traits and background traits from Iron Heroes should be used to replace the racial abilities (as suggested), but you can play with allowing the Iron Heroes trait system to replace the Pathfinder trait system and 1st level feat. Some of the feats from Iron Heroes are very interesting and easy to manage as a DM.

Liberty's Edge

Excellent. I appreciate you chiming in.

I'd already planned on using the Litorans (litorians?) as an NPC race. I will use the AE and Books of <insert> Might for the magic for them, then.


Saint_Meerkat wrote:

I'm starting a Pathfinder game in a campaign world of my own creation, and I am eager to use, and allow use of, all my Arcana Unearthed/Evolved, Arcane Might, Divine Might, etc., with it.

Does anyone here have enough experience with the Malhavoc Press products to make a knowledgeable guess or a first-hand observation that might help me out?

Most of the stuff is pretty compatible, but are you going to use Arcana Evolved-style magic (e.g. simple/complex/exotic spells) or BOXM-style magic (e.g. level 1-20 spells)? Cause that would be a bit harder to mix with Pathfinder.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Zurai wrote:
So, if there are save-or-die/suck spells or polymorph type spells in those books, you might want to give them a once-over and compare them to spells of similar levels in the Pathfinder rules.

Indeed. Here are some benchmarks, from the PF SRD.

Level 1: Sleep
Level 2: Blindness/Deafness
Level 3: Deep Slumber
Level 4: Charm Monster or Phantasmal Killer
Level 5: Dominate Person or Baleful Polymorph or Feeblemind
Level 6: Flesh to Stone
Level 7: Reverse Gravity or Power Word Blind or Plane Shift
Level 8: Maze or Mass Charm Monster
Level 9: Dominate Monster or Imprisonment

Liberty's Edge

hogarth,

I was going through the BOXM last night, and I see the problem you mentioned. I didn't realize it was an entirely new magic system. I though it was just spells.

The AU/AE spells look a lot more like a direct transfer.

SM

Grand Lodge

Zurai wrote:

Again, I can't help you directly, but there were a lot of spell changes in Pathfinder. In particular, save-or-die and save-or-suck (hold person et al) spells mostly got changed to things like save-or-take-a-ton-of-damage and save-or-save-every-round-to-not-suck. Also, polymorph (and its pursuant abilities like wildshape) got significantly changed; they grant fixed stat bonuses and critter abilities from specific lists, now, instead of being a "find the most broken monster" minigame.

So, if there are save-or-die/suck spells or polymorph type spells in those books, you might want to give them a once-over and compare them to spells of similar levels in the Pathfinder rules.

Monte Cook had a lot of similar philosphy that Paizo took when he designed his products, particularly in spell design. For the most part they're compatible, although I do think some minor changes would need to be made to account for feat and skill differences.


LazarX wrote:
Zurai wrote:

Again, I can't help you directly, but there were a lot of spell changes in Pathfinder. In particular, save-or-die and save-or-suck (hold person et al) spells mostly got changed to things like save-or-take-a-ton-of-damage and save-or-save-every-round-to-not-suck. Also, polymorph (and its pursuant abilities like wildshape) got significantly changed; they grant fixed stat bonuses and critter abilities from specific lists, now, instead of being a "find the most broken monster" minigame.

So, if there are save-or-die/suck spells or polymorph type spells in those books, you might want to give them a once-over and compare them to spells of similar levels in the Pathfinder rules.

Monte Cook had a lot of similar philosphy that Paizo took when he designed his products, particularly in spell design. For the most part they're compatible, although I do think some minor changes would need to be made to account for feat and skill differences.

In Arcana Evolved, "death" spells do hp damage (e.g. Waves of Death, an 8th level spell, does 80 damage, save negates) and there aren't any polymorph spells.

Having said that, the spells in Arcana Evolved aren't necessarily any more balanced. For instance, Dazzlesphere is a 2nd-level spell similar to Glitterdust, except it dazes the targets instead of blinding them (or stuns them if you use a 3rd level slot). And there are more feats, spells, etc. that give +1 or +2 to spell DCs (e.g. the eldritch template and the spell Enhance Magical Flow).

Grand Lodge

Arcana Evolved material IS usable, what I neglected to mention is that like any other sourcebook from a source foreign to the system you are running, it's going to have it's impact. Arcana Evolved does have some guidelines into balancing it's material with 3.5 that should help you in handling it's import into a Pathfinder game.

However if your are heavily into running say, a Golarian campaign, the Arcana material should be used SPARINGLY. on an item by item basis. On the other hand if you're running an Arcana campaign, it's the Pathfinder material that needs to be handled with care.

RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

hogarth wrote:
Having said that, the spells in Arcana Evolved aren't necessarily any more balanced. For instance, Dazzlesphere is a 2nd-level spell similar to Glitterdust, except it dazes the targets instead of blinding them (or stuns them if you use a 3rd level slot).

For what it's worth, Dazzlesphere is weaker than PF Glitterdust.


Also, please note that Dazzlesphere is an Exotic Spell, and therefore only available if you take a feat to access it, or buy a magic item that allows you to prepare it.

Every caster class except the Magister must take the Exotic Spell feat to add the spell to their list, and that's essentially one feat for one spell.

The Magister, by virtue of having complex spells naturally, can gain access to it by taking the Fey Mage feat, which improves his access to spells with the Faen Descriptor (such as dazzlesphere) by one step. Any other caster taking the Fey Mage feat only improves their access from simple to complex, so they can't acquire Dazzlesphere in this fashion.

Buying an Amulet of Spell Knowledge which takes up your neck slot and allows you to ready Dazzlesphere as if it were on your spells known list costs 4K gold pieces.

So assuming that you have a 5th level magister with Eldritch Mage and Fey Mage ceremonial feats (note also that by the RAW, you have to pay character level x100gp for each ceremonial feat you take after level one) you can, at 5th level, use two 3rd level spell slots to cast Heightened Dazzlesphere with a DC of (16+ your key ability modifier). Certainly, it's going to be difficult to resist, but, at this point you have invested two feats and two of your highest level spell slots to turn the tide of a single battle by stunning the opposition for 1d4 rounds. More to the point, now that the enemies are stunned, it is up to the rest of the party to make good on those 1-4 rounds to kill the enemy while they are stunned and/or fumbling to pick up their weapons, meaning that while the Magister is certainly MVP of the encounter, he is promoting teamwork by making the rest of party's job easier.

C. Robert Brown


IMHO, you should not have many problems converting spells, feats, magic items, locations, or special rules from the Books of... series into Pathfinder. The main concern is going to be classes. Frankly, Pathfinder has loaded up most of the core classes with a lot of goodies that make some of the Malhavoc classes, especially those intended for use with pre-3.5 revision 3rd Ed, quite sad by comparison. I think the Book of Eldritch Might Bard is probably usable with Pathfinder, assuming you bump it's HD to d8. The alternate Sorcerer, Ranger, and Paladin however, are probably of no use to you, since the PF versions are much more powerful. I'd have to look through the Book of Roguish Luck again, but my gut tells me that the Gutter Mage and Shadowsworn will probably work in Pathfinder just fine, since they are casters, but that the Bandit will probably continue to be somewhat sub-par. The Stunt system and Arcane Battle Feats etc. from the Book of Iron Might are also probably okay with Pathfinder. The Ironborn race would probably work fine, so long as you readjust them to reflect Pathfinder's net +2 to ability scores, which is probably most easily done by removing the associated penalties for the various package bonuses, making them more like Humans, Half-Elves and Half-Orcs.

Having spent a lot of time looking through When the Sky Falls and Requiem for a God lately, I don't foresee too many problems converting that material either.

In short, anything intended to be a supplement for 3.5 is probably going to work out fine in Pathfinder.

What's going to be a problem is converting stuff from alternate PHBs like Arcana Evolved and Iron Heroes. Each of these systems has different assumptions about class and race balance which make them different from Pathfinder. AE plays well alongside core 3.5, in my experience (I've been DMing hybrid AE/3.5 games since both came out in 2003), but Iron Heroes is almost as much of a departure from core d20.

If it was me, I would probably give up on Iron Heroes as a lost cause for conversion. As far as AE goes, while it is pretty much on par with 3.5, Pathfinder has made significant changes. My guess is that with the slight nerfing of various spells, that the primary casters are much closer in power level now, possibly with the AE casters now having an edge.

Off the cuff, however, I would do the following:
Akashic: Gains d8 HD.

Champion: Change the bonus type of Call Upon the Power etc. to something other than enhancement. Perhaps Sacred or Profane, or even Morale. Give it a Full Armament ability to summon both shield and weapon as a full round action rather than two standard actions.

Magister and Greenbond: Are probably okay, just don't let them mix the casting systems.

Mageblade/Runeblade/Runethane: These all work fine with Pathfinder, although if you must choose one, use the Runeblade from the BOXM and leave out the other two, as it will be the most distinctive from the other Pathfinder classes, and gets something at every level, so it likely will hold up better in the eyes of your players.

Oathsworn: Could benefit greatly from the Monk's ability to calculate his CMB as if he had a full BAB.

Totem Warrior: Use the Druid rules for animal companions, with Totem Warrior level = Druid level. Do not penalize them like the Ranger and Paladin, this is one of the big things that makes the class worth taking.

Unfettered and Warmain: I personally would choose whether to use these two classes or the Pathfinder Fighter. Keep in mind that a lot of what makes the AE classes effective is tied up in the equipment list, whereas the Pathfinder Fighter makes his equipment better as a class feature.

For example:

Warmain 20 in Masterwork Definitive Harness:
Armor Bonus: +12
Max Dex Bonus: +3
Check Penalty: -3
Max AC from Armor and Dex: 25

Fighter 20 in Masterwork Full Plate
Armor Bonus: +9
Max Dex Bonus: +5
Check Penalty: -1
Max AC from Armor and Dex: 24

As you can see, the Fighter makes the Full plate better, whereas the Warmain has access to better equipment, and the two end up in about the same neighborhood in terms of AC. If you give the Fighter access to the same equipment as the Warmain however, then you pretty much remove the warmain's primary advantage. Weapons follow pretty much the same curve, and overall, the Warmain loses if the Fighter can buy his stuff. So either the Warmain doesn't make the jump to Pathfinder, or he becomes a strange niche class based around using high tech weapons and armor beyond the kin of mortal man just to keep up with what the fighter is doing in plain old fullplate and longsword.

A case can be made for keeping the Unfettered, however, since it does offer some unique parry abilities and has a better BAB than a Fighter 10/Rogue10 (you'd need at least that many levels of Rogue to get Imp. Evasion, and at that point, your 20th level BAB is +17, not +20), and with Pathfinder's conceit of tying BAB to HD, the class would have a D10 and 4+ Int skill points per level. Instead of Exotic Agile Weapon Proficiency, give them proficiency in Nunchaku, Whip, Spiked Chain, Elven Curved Blade, Bola, Handcrossbow, Repeating Crossbows, Net, Shuriken, and Halfling Slingstaff. This solidly puts the Unfettered as the master of weird exotic weapons, which further distinguishes it from Rogue and Fighter. I might also increase their skillpoints to 6+Int modifier per level, putting them in the same league as the Ranger and Bard, it's fellow lightly armored hybrid/niche classes.

Speaking of which...there is the Witch (if you find that pun groan-worthy, consider the fact that Paizo is doing their own witch class, meaning that if you include the AE witch, you are damned to "Which Witch is Which?" jokes every time this comes up.) While I love the flavor of the Witch class in AE, the Pathfinder Sorcerer has firmly taken over it's niche as the "thematic spontaneous caster who gets spells more slowly than wizard". Add to this the fact that the witch has some serious Multiple Attribute Dependency, that the manifestations aren't all balanced against one another, and the fact that no two people can seem to agree on how to "Fix" the witch or that it needs to be fixed at all..and well...I just wouldn't bother with it. Leave this one out.

Robert "Just My Opinion" Ranting


A Man In Black wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Having said that, the spells in Arcana Evolved aren't necessarily any more balanced. For instance, Dazzlesphere is a 2nd-level spell similar to Glitterdust, except it dazes the targets instead of blinding them (or stuns them if you use a 3rd level slot).
For what it's worth, Dazzlesphere is weaker than PF Glitterdust.

I'm not sure what you mean. The duration is shorter, but (a) I'd rather be blind than dazed, and (b) you don't get a save every round, and (c) you can't cast Glitterdust as a level 1 spell. And combats are usually pretty short anyways (in my experience).

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