I was reading through some of the bloodlines in the core book, and something caught my eye.
The Celestial bloodline grants two spells that are normally online divine spells:
Bless (3rd) and Flame Strike (11th)
Now, couldn't a Sorcerer take Scribe Scroll, make Flame Strike into a scroll (which would be arcane at this point).
Then hand it to a wizard to scribe into his book (this is doable via p 219 of the corebook, spells copied from another's spellbook or a scroll)? Effectively making a new version of this spell, an ARCANE version?
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I was reading through some of the bloodlines in the core book, and something caught my eye.
The Celestial bloodline grants two spells that are normally online divine spells:
Bless (3rd) and Flame Strike (11th)Now, couldn't a Sorcerer take Scribe Scroll, make Flame Strike into a scroll (which would be arcane at this point).
Then hand it to a wizard to scribe into his book (this is doable via p 219 of the corebook, spells copied from another's spellbook or a scroll)? Effectively making a new version of this spell, an ARCANE version?
No. Because I would stab him in the eye.
Yes, but I being a cruel and evil overlord, would state that those spells are linked to the bloodline and would could only be used by him, even off the scrolls. Gods don't like it when their gifts are stolen by upstart wizards. I might holy smite him for trying just to get the point across.
No. Because I would stab him in the eye.
I like that answer *rofl*
While this may have changed since 3.5, but wasn't a wizard or sorcerer able to learn unusual spells from scrolls? And you could research(make) a new spell if you were given the time.
They can still make their own spells, according to the Independent Research portion of the core rulebook (page 219).
I think the part that the others are refering to, is part of the Wizard class features part, under spells:
A wizard casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Chapter 10.
I suppose one could research a flame strike varient though....
I was reading through some of the bloodlines in the core book, and something caught my eye.
The Celestial bloodline grants two spells that are normally online divine spells:
Bless (3rd) and Flame Strike (11th)Now, couldn't a Sorcerer take Scribe Scroll, make Flame Strike into a scroll (which would be arcane at this point).
Then hand it to a wizard to scribe into his book (this is doable via p 219 of the corebook, spells copied from another's spellbook or a scroll)? Effectively making a new version of this spell, an ARCANE version?
Nope, because when the sorcerer scribes it onto the scroll, it's still a divine spell, just like if a cleric scribed it. The sorcerer is not turning the spell into an arcane spell, he is simply allowed to cast a small, very limited pool of divine spells.
Let's put it like this, if you had a sorcerer/cleric, you wouldn't allow the character to scribe his cleric spells as arcane spells would you? Same logic applies here. His divine touch from his bloodline lets him cast a small number of divine spells. He still has arcane restrictions on them because he is not getting them from a god, he is using the inherent divine blood within his own body/soul to power them. That doesn't make them arcane spells, just gives him a special ability to cast divine spells that arcane casters normally can't.
I was reading through some of the bloodlines in the core book, and something caught my eye.
The Celestial bloodline grants two spells that are normally online divine spells:
Bless (3rd) and Flame Strike (11th)Now, couldn't a Sorcerer take Scribe Scroll, make Flame Strike into a scroll (which would be arcane at this point).
Then hand it to a wizard to scribe into his book (this is doable via p 219 of the corebook, spells copied from another's spellbook or a scroll)? Effectively making a new version of this spell, an ARCANE version?Nope, because when the sorcerer scribes it onto the scroll, it's still a divine spell, just like if a cleric scribed it. The sorcerer is not turning the spell into an arcane spell, he is simply allowed to cast a small, very limited pool of divine spells.
Let's put it like this, if you had a sorcerer/cleric, you wouldn't allow the character to scribe his cleric spells as arcane spells would you? Same logic applies here. His divine touch from his bloodline lets him cast a small number of divine spells. He still has arcane restrictions on them because he is not getting them from a god, he is using the inherent divine blood within his own body/soul to power them. That doesn't make them arcane spells, just gives him a special ability to cast divine spells that arcane casters normally can't.
I wouldn't say that, a celestial bloodline sorcerer doesn't cast divine spells. Yes, the celestial influence allows them to cast spells normally not allowed to most sorcerers, but that doesn't make them suddenly able to cast divine spells. The difference between divine and arcane magic is a bit larger than that. In your example of the sorcerer/cleric yes, they would not be able to scribe divine versions of sorc/wiz spells and vice-versa but that is because that character doesn't cast their sorcerer spells as a cleric or the other way around.
In the case of the celestial bloodline I would have to side with everyone else. Yes, the scroll scribed would be an arcane scroll of flame strike. But no, the only ones able to use it would be a Celestial Sorcerer.
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
* The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
* The user must have the spell on her class list.
* The user must have the requisite ability score.
According to this, if the spell somehow stayed divine, the sorcerer would be unable to use their own scroll. As a sorcerer they use arcane scrolls, and create arcane scrolls.
The second bullet point is what limits who can use it, none of the other arcane classes have flame strike on their class list (and neither do celestial bloodline sorcerers until they reach the level at which it is added, 11th).EDIT - Taking a look at the wording again, technically speaking, the spells learned from a Bloodline are not explicitly added to the sorcerer's spell list. Under sorcerer-spells it says "A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists." (emphasis mine) which could be construed as that the extra spells they gain aren't on their spell list. Thinking about it, as a GM I would allow a sorcerer to use arcane scrolls of spells that are on their bloodline list, even before they have gained them. This would be fairly difficult if those spells aren't normally arcane spells so it balances itself out.
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No, because it would be an arcane spell that's not on his spell list. Just like bard spells such as cure light wounds are arcane spells that wizards can't use, since they aren't on the wizard's list, either.
What he said.
If the Sorcerer went on to make a scroll of bless, he'd have an arcane scroll of bless only usable by arcane casters who have bless on their arcane spell list.
If a wizard chose to do spell research and try to use this scroll to work up and arcane version of bless that anyone can use, I'd let him do it, but have the spell end up being a *2nd level* Sor/Wiz spell. He'd have technically succeeded, but the spell would be a dire choice to cast in a world of scorching ray, invisibility, glitterdust and web.
Some things are done better by divine magic. Some by arcane magic. While I personally care not a fig for those distinctions (being a veteran of GURPS, where mages can heal), this is D&D, and those distinctions are part of the divine caster / arcane caster balance, so I would be wary of allowing spell research to easily push aside those distinctions. Large area buffing effects, like bless, prayer, recitation, bardsong, etc. tend to be limited to the bard and divine casters, while arcane casters are better at buffing the crap out of a single person (via polymorphing, usually).
Dire Gnome ans Set have the right of it. Wizards cannot use cleric spells because the spells are not on their spell list, not because spell is divine.
Similarly clerics cannot cast druid only spells off of scrolls.
Scrolls are not inherently divine or arcane. Protection from evil on a scroll/ wand can be cast by either wizards or clerics. They can use the scroll regardless of who scribed it based on whether it's on their spell list.
Dire Gnome ans Set have the right of it. Wizards cannot use cleric spells because the spells are not on their spell list, not because spell is divine.
Similarly clerics cannot cast druid only spells off of scrolls.
Scrolls are not inherently divine or arcane. Protection from evil on a scroll/ wand can be cast by either wizards or clerics. They can use the scroll regardless of who scribed it based on whether it's on their spell list.
While I've been agreeing with everyone (it was a small loop hole I just happened to notice), this last part isn't correct. Here, directly from the core rule book (p490) about scrolls:
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
Scrolls ARE inherently divine or arcane.
Scrolls are not inherently divine or arcane.
Incorrect. Scrolls do inherit the casting type of the spell used to create the scroll (or no type, if it's done by a warlock or artificer using their special class abilities).
Nope, because when the sorcerer scribes it onto the scroll, it's still a divine spell, just like if a cleric scribed it.
Incorrect. Sorcerers cast arcane spells by definition. All spells on the sorcerer list, including bonus spells added by their bloodlines, are arcane spells. All scrolls created with a sorcerer spell are arcane. A wizard could not learn flame strike from an arcane scroll of flame strike created by a celestial bloodline sorcerer because flame strike is not on the wizard spell list.
While I've been agreeing with everyone (it was a small loop hole I just happened to notice), this last part isn't correct. Here, directly from the core rule book (p490) about scrolls:
...
Scrolls ARE inherently divine or arcane.
So it is. I was thinking about wands and the less complete section under "using magic items" which simply says you must be able to cast it. Just my brain trying to force some sort of consistency into the system ;)
So a celestial sorcerer wouldn't be able to use a scroll of bless but would be able to use a wand of bless. And likewise if he scribed a scroll of bless neither the cleric nor the wizard would be able to use it.
The answer?
No moreso than a druid could cast cleric-only spells via scrolls. A wizard doesn't have the capacity to learn spells out-with his/her spell-list without someone specific (like the advanced learning ability) just like every other casting class.
No. Because I would stab him in the eye.I like that answer *rofl*
I like it too...though my preferred method is to whack the offending player with the PF Rulebook. I have 2 now. One for GMing use, and one for player use that has tabs and wrinkles and is ready to be used as a Weighty Tome of Common Sense Whacking!