Just out of curiosity...
Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance of spoiling any spell with a verbal component that he tries to cast.
Does anyone out there actually enforce this, or do you allow casters to mutter incantations under their breath, or try to do things quietly? Obviously Silent Spell makes the discussion moot, so let's leave that out. I'm just curious as to what the consenus is. How quietly can you cast a spell without applying Metamagic?
Just out of curiosity...
Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance of spoiling any spell with a verbal component that he tries to cast.Does anyone out there actually enforce this, or do you allow casters to mutter incantations under their breath, or try to do things quietly? Obviously Silent Spell makes the discussion moot, so let's leave that out. I'm just curious as to what the consenus is. How quietly can you cast a spell without applying Metamagic?
I used to make them make a concentration or spellcraft check to cast it as a mumble or whisper, the DC equal to 15 + twice the level of the spell.
I would just make it a spellcraft under PF, since concentration went the way of the dodo.
I would just make it a spellcraft under PF, since concentration went the way of the dodo.
Except that there still is a concentration mechanic and it would still work fine for this use. Caster level + relevant state against a DC 15+ 2x spell level would still be fine.
It would however be a non standard (i.e. not RAW), and generally the silent spell feat is what is needed to stealthy cast a spell.
I would just make it a spellcraft under PF, since concentration went the way of the dodo.Except that there still is a concentration mechanic and it would still work fine for this use. Caster level + relevant state against a DC 15+ 2x spell level would still be fine.
It would however be a non standard (i.e. not RAW), and generally the silent spell feat is what is needed to stealthy cast a spell.
Absolutely, never claimed it was RAW. I just always took the feat to be 100% safe casting the spell (no sound at all), and any attempt to cast it quietly otherwise requiring effort and having a decent chance to fail.
I agree the concentration check could still work, just saying that without the skill, and in an attempt to use skills over mechanics, I'd use the spellcraft instead. The reasoning being that a skill requires effort and practice, while the mechanic does not. Using the mechanic, someone that practices every day muttering their spells for a year is no better than someone who shouts their spells at the top of their lungs for a year at doing it quietly. Whereas with the skill, you can take feats to boost your ability, and thus the person that practices it and uses up their build resources to do it get's better at it than the guy who screams at the top of his lungs all the time.
Ok, with the explanation what you were saying makes much more sense, and in general I like to give spellcraft a bit more umpf in the crafting spells department too.
House Rule Territory:
For on the fly modification of a spell I would go with spellcraft though too. Generally mimicking a metamagic feat is DC 15+2*metamagic adjusted spell level, no higher than your highest caster level, and it will reduce caster level by an amount equal to the new spell level of the spell. This is to make actually using the feats worthwhile still, while still giving a means to pull something out in a truly disparate situation. There was an example of this in one of the war of the spider queen books (the first book iirc), a mage cast a spell with his toes instead of his hands, out of a few spells he had mastered.
Personal choices Territory:
Personally I'll generally take Still Spell, Silent Spell, Eschew Materials, and Spell Mastery a time or two. Those five feats allow you to always be lethal or have a means to escape, if captured. Common spells mastered for me include teleport (or greater), dispel magic (or greater) Summon Monster 5 or higher, and Invisibility (or greater), the rest depend on level, and character preferences.
Ok, with the explanation what you were saying makes much more sense, and in general I like to give spellcraft a bit more umpf in the crafting spells department too.
House Rule Territory:
For on the fly modification of a spell I would go with spellcraft though too. Generally mimicking a metamagic feat is DC 15+2*metamagic adjusted spell level, no higher than your highest caster level, and it will reduce caster level by an amount equal to the new spell level of the spell. This is to make actually using the feats worthwhile still, while still giving a means to pull something out in a truly disparate situation. There was an example of this in one of the war of the spider queen books (the first book iirc), a mage cast a spell with his toes instead of his hands, out of a few spells he had mastered.Personal choices Territory:
Personally I'll generally take Still Spell, Silent Spell, Eschew Materials, and Spell Mastery a time or two. Those five feats allow you to always be lethal or have a means to escape, if captured. Common spells mastered for me include teleport (or greater), dispel magic (or greater) Summon Monster 5 or higher, and Invisibility (or greater), the rest depend on level, and character preferences.
I think the house rule may be a bit too restricting, but that's personal choice. :)
As to the feats, I only ever take metamagic feats if I have a spontaneous caster (warmage, sorcerer, favored soul) because with a prepared caster, the restriction of memorizing the spell with the metamagic ability is so restricting. If the GM is using the alternate (3 times per day) use of the metamagic ability, then they are more useful for the Wizard.
First off, I'm usually playing a spell caster.. so be advised, that will probably tend to skew my answer abit. :)
"strong voice" does not say "speak loudly" "shout" "scream" or "Yell".
I would say it more closely applies to not being gagged or otherwise verbally impaired.
Someone can speak quietly- and yes even whisper- while speaking clearly and concisely. If you've ever been in church (or a courtroom, or any other place that's generally "quiet") and watched a mother silence her child- you've probably seen someone whisper Quite clearly.
(again, this message has been brought to you by a wizard.. -lol-)
-S
Well, since the wizards have chimed in, I'll chime in from the lawyers' POV.
I don't accept that it's anything but wishful thinking to claim that "strong voice" includes hushed whispers or murmers or mutters or anything under your breath.
I find this on dictionary.com:
Strong
9. clear and firm; loud: He has a strong voice.
(the previous 8 definitions dealt more with muscle and military might, this is the first devinition to deal with volume).
Further, we have a feat that allows this rule to be broken: Silent Spell. If we wish our hopeful interpretations into this rule, we completely invalidate that feat.
Clearly, given the acceptible, dictionary definition of "strong voice" and the feat that complements this definition, it is the clear intent that spells cannot be cast quietly.
I don't believe spells with verbal components need to be shouted. But the bare minimum that could be expected from the RAW wording is speaking in a normal, clear and strong, conversational volume, though even that seems somewhat hushed in the face of the "strong voice" definition, which includes "loud" - most people do not have a "loud" conversational volume.
I would not and do not allow spellcasters to mutter or whisper or cast spells under their breath unless they take the Silent Spell feat. And my intelligent monsters and NPCs are decidedly unwilling to wait and see what spell is being cast at them - if they have any held/readied actions and someone starts incanting, they will shoot first and ask questions later, because doing it the other way around is an excellent way to end up dead.
I do enforce the rule.
I do not require anyone to "yell" their spell, but they do need to use a clearly understandable voice (normal conversation level).
They do have a chance of not being noticed if they are in a busy place or loud place (say a busy market or tavern/inn).
Just out of curiosity...
Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance of spoiling any spell with a verbal component that he tries to cast.Does anyone out there actually enforce this, or do you allow casters to mutter incantations under their breath, or try to do things quietly? Obviously Silent Spell makes the discussion moot, so let's leave that out. I'm just curious as to what the consenus is. How quietly can you cast a spell without applying Metamagic?
I enforce it.
I require the characters to speak in a normal voice. Yelling is not required, but you cannot mutter or whisper spells.
The only way the sound of a caster casting a spell can be concealed is if there is a lot of background noise.
Basically speak in a strong voice means speaking as you would if you wish to be herd in a location with an average level of background noise (e.g. like you would when making conversation in a moderately full restaurant).
|
I enforce it.
I will give nearby creatures a Listen check (oops, "Perception check") to determine if they can hear it. Often I can just glance at the layout and factor in the "-1 per 10 feet of distance" rule along with intervening doors and walls and know right away whether they even have a chance.
we have always enforced the rule, in fact our players usually make up magic words (i like to use another language to make it sound interesting). Its the whole point of the verbal component rule, you have to speak, with all possible restrictions and difficulties encompassed in that. Theres always silent spell, and i believe there was a skill trick or two that were useful in handling such situations as when a caster did not want to be noticed casting a spell.
I rule that it's a DC 0 Perception check to hear spellcasting (same as "hear the details of a conversation").
|
Verbal components should ideally be shouted - "VENTAS FERROS!" - but a firm, projecting tone, as a professional speaker would use, is acceptable. You are, after all, warping the very laws of the universe to your will. The least you could do is be a little confident, a little forceful in your manner.
A hand-talker has about as much chance as surreptitiously slipping the somatic components of a spell into his conversation as he has of accidentally speaking American Sign Language with his gestures.
Material components must be presented to the universe at large and sacrificed in a manner indicative of the pride and might of a wizard. The universe doesn't grant ultimate cosmic power to people who cry because they crushed a live cricket, stabbed their own hand, or devoured a raw hunk of beholder flesh.
You wanna be a sneaky-ass wizard, take the damn feats.
The only spell with a verbal component that bothers me is the message spell. It has short range, conveys a sentence and requires you to speak loudly... at that point you might as well shout out what you are trying to tell the guy instead of casting message.
** HOUSERULE **
We have removed the verbal component to the message spell, it's a hand gesture and you just think the sentence and it's sent to the person, almost like a mental instant message.
The only spell with a verbal component that bothers me is the message spell. It has short range, conveys a sentence and requires you to speak loudly... at that point you might as well shout out what you are trying to tell the guy instead of casting message.
Not really; you just pre-cast Message when there's no one around to hear you (it lasts 10 min/level, after all). And don't forget the -1/10' penalty for hearing, so casting Message from 150' away isn't that easy to hear.
Your house rule is quite reasonable, though.
The only spell with a verbal component that bothers me is the message spell. It has short range, conveys a sentence and requires you to speak loudly... at that point you might as well shout out what you are trying to tell the guy instead of casting message.
** HOUSERULE **
We have removed the verbal component to the message spell, it's a hand gesture and you just think the sentence and it's sent to the person, almost like a mental instant message.
The verbal component does not have to be what is said in the message. It can and should be some form of arcane language that no one understands without a few ranks in spellcraft. The talking part of the message spell occurs afterwards. And like the spell dictates people nearby cant hear it without a dc 25 perception check.
Does anyone out there actually enforce this,
I absolutely enforce this. Take Silent Spell if you don't want to be heard.
The verbal component does not have to be what is said in the message. It can and should be some form of arcane language that no one understands without a few ranks in spellcraft. The talking part of the message spell occurs afterwards. And like the spell dictates people nearby cant hear it without a dc 25 perception check.
Yes but usually we cast this spell to talk quietly while infiltrating or the like. A loud spell being cast doesn't really help you remain stealthy even if the messages passed after that do. Our understanding is that it is the messages that require the perception check, not the spell being cast itself (which is still loud as a normal spell).
The point being that once you are being loud you are being loud, regardless of what is being said, and if you can be loud, you might as well just shout since it saves you a spell memorized.
(This is an explanation of the stance, nothing else)
For the message spell, why are people talking loudly after they cast it? Once it is cast, you can keep sending messages without having to talk loudly. Or am I missing something?
There's also the skill trick "Conceal Spellcasting" from Complete Scoundrel. It's not strictly as good as Still Spell or Silent Spell because you do still need to be able to speak and gesture (so it wouldn't work while gagged or allow casting in the area of a silence spell) and only works once per encounter, but it doesn't increase the effective spell level. Casual observers won't notice that a spell is being cast, but if someone was doing the old "hold action until the caster starts to cast so I can interrupt him and make him lose the spell" bit, as a DM I'd at least give them a perception check to realize what's going on.
There's also Invisible Spell(Cityscape page 61), but my Cityscape isn't handy so I can't really discuss it at the moment.
Absolutely enforce it. I have no idea if it's still present in Pathfinder, but at some point in some edition (sorry, can't be more precise unfortunately) it was explicitly said that spellcasting was always recognizable as such. Obviously in 3.5/PF if you have Still Spell, Silent Spell, and Eschew Materials you can remove all the components from a spell, but it's still obviously a spell. It still provokes attacks of opportunity and still gives off signs of being cast.
Your mileage (and DM) may vary.
For the message spell, why are people talking loudly after they cast it? Once it is cast, you can keep sending messages without having to talk loudly. Or am I missing something?
Yeah you are missing something, but that's probably due to my inability to explain here. I'll give a situation that might help clear it up:
Party happens upon an orc camp without being noticed (the guards are playing dice, or eating, the party wasn't that loud), they move back silently and hide watching the orcs for a bit to 1. make sure they aren't a neutral or good tribe, 2. if they are up to evil and need 'adventured'. Sure enough the stereotype plays true and the orcs start trotting out the slaves for the nights entertainment. While watching this the party wants to communicate, but they've spread out some in order to be harder to notice... now the message spell would be great here, especially since the party contains a wizard, a bard, a fighter (with the wizard, and a cleric (with the bard). However in order to use the message spell to communicate you have to cast it first. The wizard and bard didn't go around with it up all the time (or didn't anounce they were going to so the DM ruled they didn't have it up) and so either need to cast the spell loudly, or do without coordination.
Now granted once the spell is cast you are good to go, and don't need to be loud, but in the situation that you need it cast to communicate quietly you'll have to broadcast your presence to the world before you can communicate quietly.
If you have time to have it up first it's great, if you come up on something then want to put it up it sucks.
Another case: same party at level 1 infiltrating somewhere using message to communicate, after 10 minutes they need to recast the spell or not be able to communicate, possibly problematic in the middle of a stealth mission.
Message is a 0-level spell which lasts ten minutes per level and affects one character per level and functions so long as everyone stays within medium range of the caster (so up to twice that for two individuals).
A 0-level spell.
You found an orc camp. Then you split up. Didn't think, "Maybe we'll want to talk!" and back off 100 feet to cast it (barely twelve seconds out of ten minutes, assuming just level 1). You expect a which could have functioned perfectly well to create heaping piles of strategic advantage with ten seconds of foresight, to create those same heaping piles even when used as an afterthought?
Not at my table, that's for sure.
tejon, um how to put this:
BACK OFF.
It is a hypothetical situation. The idea holds, the spell would work the same regardless of when it is cast, and would give those huge amounts of tactical advantage that's why you use it . That being said, yes the hypothetical party could have backed off then used the spell.
There are problems with that idea as well:
How long did they watching that orc camp? Was it 10 minutes or 1 hour? Are they going to back off and recast it right before it wears off everytime? Doing so would risk them being seen, possibly heard again, and they still have to sneak back which would eat up more than a little time. The hypothetical party was probably lucky not to be seen in the first place when they stumbled onto the orc camp.
and this doesn't address the second case where they are deep in enemy territory and the spell that should be helping them communicate is useless since duration is up, and they can't afford to recast it since it is noisy.
Please note I'm not saying this is a bad thing, or that it can't be covered by the silent spell feat. I'm not saying that these shouldn't be tactical decisions that the party has to make. I am merely saying it's a screwed up situation to have in the first place. A stealthy spell that isn't stealthy seems to be a faulty spell to start with.
BACK OFF.
I probably should have peppered the above with smiley faces. I was feeling humorous when I typed it, not antagonistic; conversely I was in a hurry to leave work. Sorry 'bout that.
A stealthy spell that isn't stealthy seems to be a faulty spell to start with.
Faulty, but still very useful. I was emphasizing the fact that it's 0-level because its power level seems spot-on. There are better silent-communication spells later.
All good on the first point then.
On the second I agree and disagree. The strange thing is the later spells (with the exception of telepathy) really aren't that great for communication... they are generally one way and short in duration.
However for a level 0 spell it is probably right on, that was just our take on it, and again a hypothetical on how it could be bothersome.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Does anyone out there actually enforce this, or do you allow casters to mutter incantations under their breath, or try to do things quietly? How quietly can you cast a spell without applying Metamagic?
I enforce. I make listen checks based on Shouting PC's when a PC is casting, since casting is almost as loud as shouting.
|
|
I always think of this SCENE from Excalibur as casting a spell in a strong voice, specifically Morgana's part.
--I wanna Vrock. VROCK!