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I've been reading a ton of material lately, and I stumbled upon the Tome of Secrets book. For those of you that do not know, it has the following classes in it: Artificer, Knight, Priest, Shaman, Spellblade, Swashbuckler, Warlock, and Warlord...all upgraded to Pathfinder rules.
I started reading about the spellblade, and realized that this and the duskblade (from the Player's Handbook II) are only slightly different. One channels spells through their weapon while one casts spells and enchances their weapon. This made me think that I could use the spellblade as a template for the duskblade.
So, here goes....
Hit dice: Keep at d8. The spellblade has d8, and while the normal conversion rules say to make "good BaB = d10 hit points" I think keeping this ad d8 is appropriate.
BaB: Keep at "good" or "fighter" +1 each level.
Saves: Good Fort, bad Ref and Will. Yes, this downgrades the Will saves of the duskblade, but it realigns it with the spellblade.
Skills: Keep the same, just convert to pathfinder: Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Knowledge (all, taken separately), Linguistics, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Swim
2 + Int modifier per level
Weapon and Armor Profs: All simple and martial weapons. All light and medium armors. This is a change from the original material, in that no shields are now offered. This will become apparent why in a bit.
Spells: A duskblade casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every duskblade spell has an additional focus component which consists of the duskblade’s weapon (see Arcane Weapon Focus). To learn to cast a spell, a duskblade must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a duskblade spell is 10 + the spell level + the duskblade’s Intelligence modifier.
Like other spellcasters, the duskblade can cast only a certain number of spells per day. His base daily allotment is given on the duskblade table. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.
The duskblade selection of spells is extremely limited. A duskblade begins play knowing 4 0-level spells and two 1st level spells of the duskblade’s choice. At each new duskblade level, he gains one additional new spell. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a duskblade knows is not affected by his Intelligence score).
Upon reaching 5th level, and at every subsequent odd-numbered level, a duskblade can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the duskblade loses the old spell in exchange for the new one.
The new spells level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level duskblade spell the duskblade can cast. A duskblade may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
A duskblade need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spells level. A duskblade may burn a higher level slot for a lower level spell, but he may not use lower level spells to cast higher level ones (through the use of a feat or other special ability).
To cast a spell with a material component, the duskblade must have 1 hand free and 1 hand holding his weapon (see Arcane Weapon Focus).
Spells progress as such:
1st level: 2
2nd level: 3
3rd level: 3
4th level: 3, 2
5th level: 4, 3
6th level: 4, 3
7th level: 5, 3, 2
8th level: 5, 4, 3
9th level: 6, 4, 3
10th level: 6, 5, 3, 2
11th level: 6, 5, 4, 3
12th level: 7, 6, 4, 3
13th level: 7, 6, 5, 3, 2
14th level: 7, 6, 5, 4, 3
15th level: 8, 7, 5, 4, 3
16th level: 8, 7, 6, 5, 3, 2
17th level: 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3
18th level: 9, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3
19th level: 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 3
20th level: 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4
(yes, this means he gets 6th level spells now!)
Arcane Weapon Focus: A duskblade’s weapon is so intricate to their spellcasting, that all spells cast by a duskblade have an additional focus component of the duskblade’s weapon. This weapon works similarly to the wizard’s bonded object, in that it must be wielded to cast a spell (although, unlike the wizard, you may not make a concentration check to cast a spell without the weapon). If the duskblade loses his weapon, he may not replace (described below) it until he gains another level. If the weapon is broken (although not through negligence, determined by the DM) however, he may perform the bonding ritual with a weapon of the same type (longsword, dire flail, etc).
Unlike the wizard’s bonded object, a duskblade may change his weapon upon gaining a new duskblade level. Changing the arcane weapon focus of a duskblade requires the duskblade to perform a meditation for 8 hours with the new weapon. This must be done in complete silence and may not be interrupted. If an interruption occurs, the duskblade may attempt the ritual again the following day, but must pay an additional cumulative penalty of 1 hour of meditation.
Cast in Combat (Ex): At 2nd level, duskblades are so attuned to using magic and casting spells while in combat, that they no longer require concentration checks if they are injured while attempting to cast a duskblade spell. They do still provoke an attack of opportunity if the cast a spell while threatened, but the damage (if any) dealt by those attacks (or other attacks) do not require him to make a concentration check as other spellcasters (see page 206 of the Pathfinder Cole Rulebook).
Arcane Channeling I (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a duskblade can use a standard action to cast any Range: Touch spell he knows and deliver the spell through his weapon with a melee attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less. If the melee attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved. If the melee attack is unsuccessful, the spell harmlessly dissipates and is no longer channeled through your weapon. If the spell normally allows you more than 1 touch attack, all other attacks are wasted when using the Arcane Channeling ability.
Arcane Armor Training (medium): This ability is the same as Arcane Armor Training (light), except that it may now be used with all medium armors. This is achieved at level 5.
Spell Power (Ex): Starting at 6th level, you begin to damage your opponent’s spell resistance when you successfully injure your opponent with a melee attack. If you have injured an opponent with a melee attack, it gains a -2 circumstance penalty to its spell resistance for the remainder of the encounter. This penalty increases to -3 at 9th level, to -4 at 12th level, to -5 at 15th level, and to -6 at 18th level.
Arcane Channeling II (Su): At 8th level, a duskblade can now attack with a full action and cast any Range: Touch spell he knows to deliver the spell through his weapon with a melee attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less. The duskblade still only channels the spell for one attack (usually the first, but it may be a subsequent attack if preferred). If the melee attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved. If the melee attack is unsuccessful, the spell harmlessly dissipates and is no longer channeled through your weapon. If the spell normally allows you more than 1 touch attack, all other attacks are wasted when using the Arcane Channeling ability.
Arcane Channeling III (Su): At 12th level, a duskblade the channels a spell using the full attack option, can now have the spell channeled last for 2 attacks instead of one. These attacks must occur sequentially. Once two attacks are performed, the spell is no longer channeled through the duskblade’s weapon.
Arcane Channeling IV (Su): At 16th level, a duskblade the channels a spell using the full attack option, can now have the spell channeled last for 3 attacks instead of two. These attacks need not occur sequentially any longer, but they must occur in the same action (effects such as the Haste spell that grant an additional attack when making a full attack option may channel the spell, allowing a duskblade to attack once with his highest attack bonus (and channeling), once with the second highest (still channeling), two more times as normal, then once with the hasted action (and channeling).
Arcane Channeling All (Su): At 20th level, a duskblade achieves channeling supremacy and a spell channeled through a duskblade’s weapon lasts until the start of his next turn. This includes all normal attacks as well as attacks of opportunity until the duskblade’s initiative in the following round.
While I did drop the Quick Cast ability of the Duskblade, I think the other abilities added (and smoothed over in the case of arcane channeling full attack) have made up for this removal.
Thoughts, ideas, comments?
Board ate my post. Instead of recreating it in all it's quoting glory, I'll post a summary.
IMO, you've weakended the Duskblade to the point where it can't compete with a Pathfinder Fighter/(wizard or sorceror)/Eldrich Knight.
You've
1) Downgraded his will saves.
2) Didn't convert his old skill to Acrobatics (was it Balance ? I don't have the PHII handy)
3) Removed his shield proficiencies and eliminated his ability to cast with no arcane failure chance for a heavy shield
4) Removed his Arcane Attunement, eliminating a big chunk of his low level casting abilities
5) Don't specify if his remaining 0-level spells are unlimited cantrips
6) Added a restrictive focus requirement to his spellcasting.
7) Made his channelled spell dissipate on a miss at < 13th level, as was not previously the case according to the v3.5 FAQ.
8) Removed his combat casting in favor of not having a spellcraft check if hit. I'd rather not provoke the attack in the first place (and not take the damage) rather than not have to check if hit.
9) "Smoothed" his channelling to the point that he can't do something he used to be able to do at lvl-13 (channel his spell on all attacks of a full attack) until lvl-20
10) Dropped his ability to quick cast.
In exchange, he can cast more and higher level spells and ...
what else again ?
This looks really good. You removed some nifty class features (Good Will Saves, Quick Cast), but replaced them with more versatile spellcasting. That's probably good, as you don't want a 7th level dude getting in a full attack with bastard sword AND a quickened fireball!
I also like that you made the class features follow a mathematical pattern (Spell Power every 3 levels, Channel Spell pretty much every 4 levels). Are there any "dead" or "empty" levels?
Can the duskblade use a 2-handed weapon and still Channel Spell?
Board ate my post. Instead of recreating it in all it's quoting glory, I'll post a summary.
You've
1) Downgraded his will saves.
Yes, I did this to make it on par with a class that I thought was close to "equivalent". Could it go back without hurting much? Probably.
2) Didn't convert his old skill to Acrobatics (was it Balance ? I don't have the PHII handy)
Actually, he didn't have Balance. I took the exact list of skills he had from the book and "converted". This should be the same. If I missed one, please let me know. I didn't mean to drop or change any of these.
3) Removed his shield proficiencies and eliminated his ability to cast with no arcane failure chance for a heavy shield
Yes, I did this on purpose. Being able to cast a spell holding a weapon AND holding a shield shouldn't be possible. How can you get to your material components in a pouch on your waist if you are wielding a sword and have a shield strapped to your arm? You can't do it.
4) Removed his Arcane Attunement, eliminating a big chunk of his low level casting abilities
5) Don't specify if his remaining 0-level spells are unlimited cantrips
I had assumed, via the Pathfinder rules, that all 0th level spells were "cast as much as you want" now. This is why I removed arcane attunement and then gave him the ability to "add more spells" if he wants to, and now ANY 0th level spells are availble, not just dancing lights, detect magic, flare, ghost sound, and read magic.
6) Added a restrictive focus requirement to his spellcasting.
This seemed in flavor and is used to balance out the fact that you can now cast ANY wizard/sorcerer spells, not just a tiny list of duskblade spells. You are a fighting mage, specializing in fighting with a weapon and spells at the same time. It seems logical that your spells would require your weapon as a focus.
7) Made his channelled spell dissipate on a miss at < 13th level, as was not previously the case according to the v3.5 FAQ.
If this really is the case (I didn't know that), then I would have no problem giving them the ability to keep the spell if they miss. Can you point me to the 3.5 FAQ?
8) Removed his combat casting in favor of not having a spellcraft check if hit. I'd rather not provoke the attack in the first place (and not take the damage) rather than not have to check if hit.
Yes, I did change this up. It felt more in tune with what the character would do.
9) "Smoothed" his channelling to the point that he can't do something he used to be able to do at lvl-13 (channel his spell on all attacks of a full attack) until lvl-20
Yes, I did change this on purpose. Once you hit level 13 in the old class, there was absolutely NO REASON to continue this class other than a bit of spell other than a bit more spell power and a bit more quick cast. I also gave the ability for the spell to last an entire ROUND now, instead of just your attack, so attack of opportunities you make before your next round also has your spell attached to it.
10) Dropped his ability to quick cast.
Yes. I dropped this specifically because I am now giving you the ability to pick ANY SPELL on the wizard/sorcerer spell list. This was a designed change to grant you flexiability. Being able to quick cast any wizard spell at 5th level would have been way too powerful.
In exchange, he can cast more and higher level spells and ...
what else again ?
So, what does he get you ask?
1) He gets the ability to pick ANY WIZARD/SORCERER SPELL.
2) He gets 6th level spells, never possible before.
3) He gets approximately the same spells per day (it's slightly lower, but nothing drastic).
4) He gets the ability to cast a spell while being threatened and NEVER lose the spell cast, reguardless of how much damage, a feat your opponent has, or anything else the DM can think of, can do.
5) He gets the ability (at 20th level) to keep his channeled spell the entire round (even through AoO).
6) Your spell power penalty now helps out ALL spell casters, not just yourself, as it lowers the SR of the monster, not just for you.
This looks really good. You removed some nifty class features (Good Will Saves, Quick Cast), but replaced them with more versatile spellcasting. That's probably good, as you don't want a 7th level dude getting in a full attack with bastard sword AND a quickened fireball!
I also like that you made the class features follow a mathematical pattern (Spell Power every 3 levels, Channel Spell pretty much every 4 levels). Are there any "dead" or "empty" levels?
Can the duskblade use a 2-handed weapon and still Channel Spell?
First off, thank you SmiloDan, I've seen quite a few of your conversions, so getting that from you is a real compliment.
Hmm, right now, there isn't a way to use a 2 handed weapon. And come to think of it, I sort of agree with that. It falls into the same category as a shield and a weapon. How can you cast a spell with a material component with a weapon in one hand and a shield in the other? You can't get to your pouches or manipulate your components.
Now, I assume there is some feat like "monkey grip" in Pathfinder that would allow you to use a 2 handed weapon in one hand....
Edit:
Oh, and as to your question about dead levels:
1st level: light armor use, arcane weapon focus
2nd level: cast in combat
3rd level: channeling 1
4th level: 2nd level spells
5th level: medium armor use
6th level: spell power -2
7th level: 3rd level spells
8th level: channeling 2
9th level: spell power -3
10th level: 4th level spells
11th level: DEAD LEVEL
12th level: channeling 3, Spell power -4
13th level: 5th level spells
14th level: DEAD LEVEL
15th level: Spell power -5
16th level: channeling 4, and 6th level spells
17th level: DEAD LEVEL (but you just got 2 big ones last level)
18th level: Spell Power -6
19th level: DEAD LEVEL
20th level: chanelling all
1) He gets the ability to pick ANY WIZARD/SORCERER SPELL.
This is the part I missed.
I'm not sure what the result is, but is certainly isn't a Duskblade. I had some issues with the old Duskblade spell list, but this opens it WAY up. The only thing that might save the poor DM is that the Duskblade only gets to pick one new one a level.
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Yes, I did this on purpose. Being able to cast a spell holding a weapon AND holding a shield shouldn't be possible. How can you get to your material components in a pouch on your waist if you are wielding a sword and have a shield strapped to your arm? You can't do it.
3) Removed his shield proficiencies and eliminated his ability to cast with no arcane failure chance for a heavy shield
but now he can't do it with a buckler (for those pesky material components) either. Nor can he cast something with verbal components only without risking spell failure. Or pull out a shield once his spells are exhausted. At least give him his shield proficiency back, even if you take away his ability to avoid ASF from them.
I'd rather see the Duskblade get somatic weaponry (allowing casting those V,S spells with sword and shield). If he wants to cast a V,S,M spell then he needs to stick to a buckler or a light shield or take Eshew Materials.
EDIT: The latest 3.5 FAQ is http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Main35FAQv06302008.zip
One small point I would add, in regards to making such a big deal out of having access to any sorcerer/wizard spell, is that several of the duskblade's old spells were uniquely designed to benefit a full BAB combatant type and were not on the Sorc/Wizard list, and several of his sorc/wizard spells were of lower level than they appear on the sorcerer/wizard list.
I'm not saying the expansion isn't a boost, it is, just that there are some small factors that play in that make it a little bit weaker of one than you are making it out to be.
Edit: Also, by taking away the ability to cast with full hands, you've dramatically changed the duskblade's place on the battlefield. Now he acts more like a spellsinger, a one handed weapon coupled with some wizard spells.
In 3.5 duskblades were expected to use both hands, whether two-handing (most common), sword and board (secondary), or two-weapon fighting (least common because of feat crunch but best full attack action damage capacity)
As far as the spells that were originally available to the Duskblade, here are the only "changes in level"
Dispelling Touch - Duskblade 3, Wizard/Sorcerer 2 (-1)Doom Scarabs - D 3, W/S 4 (+1)
Slashing Dispel - D 5, W/S 4 (-1)
Toxic Weapon - D 4, W/S 5 (+1)
Bigby's Interposing Hand - D 4, W/s 5 (+1)
Dispel Magic - D 4, W/S 3 (-1)
Bigby's Clenched Fist - D 5, W/S 8 (+3)
Chain Lightning - D 5, W/S 6 (+1)
Disintegrate - D 5, W/S 6 (+1)
Polar Ray - D 5, W/S 8 (+3)
Really the only ones that don't balance out are the 5th level ones....I don't know about anyone else, but I think that is a fair trade to lose 2 spells and gain ANY possible 5th level or 6th level spell.
Actually, according to the FAQ (thank you SlimGauge), a duskblade TECHNICALLY couldn't cast with full hands and a somantic component.
When a duskblade uses arcane channeling to deliver a touch spell with a somatic component, does he require one hand free?
According to a strict interpretation of the rules, the duskblade would still need to perform any components required by the spell. If the spell had somatic components, the duskblade would need a hand free.
but now he can't do it with a buckler (for those pesky material components) either. Nor can he cast something with verbal components only without risking spell failure. Or pull out a shield once his spells are exhausted. At least give him his shield proficiency back, even if you take away his ability to avoid ASF from them.I'd rather see the Duskblade get somatic weaponry (allowing casting those V,S spells with sword and shield). If he wants to cast a V,S,M spell then he needs to stick to a buckler or a light shield or take Eshew Materials.
EDIT: The latest 3.5 FAQ is http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Main35FAQv06302008.zip
Thank you for the FAQ.
I will definately edit the "loses the spell if he misses." part of the channeling ability. I did not realize that is how it worked originally.
Note this: I have now given the duskblade the ability to hit the SAME target with the SAME spell multiple times in one round. I specifically used the words "attacks" and not "targets". So, if you channel Vampiric Touch with channel 3 (getting to use it with 2 attacks), you get 2 uses out of the vampiric touch on the same monster, where before (according to the FAQ) you only got to use your channeled spell once per target and could not hit the same target twice and have the spell effect it.
Also note: With my version, you can start full attacking at level 8 (getting 2 attacks in) and still channel a spell for one attack.
Now that I have read the FAQ, I think I can agree with giving him back the shield prof, but only light shields and bucklers. Then removing the ACF for just light shields and bucklers. This would still allow you to use light shields/bucklers and keep the "style" of the character in tact.
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With respct, this character doesn't seem like much of a Duskblade. It seems like an Eldritch Knight or a Spellsword. The Duskblades I've played and allied with have a specific texture to them, a spell list composed of fighting spells and touch spells, delivered through the weapon. That "touch with a weapon" aspect is one of the reasons the 3.5 version has Tumble as a class skill. Losing that skill makes it harder for the character to maneuver through combat, which I suspect will make your "Duskblades" much more interested in spells with range.
A character using a dagger as a focus, casting charm person and animate dead, doesn't strike me as the same character concept.
With respct, this character doesn't seem like much of a Duskblade. It seems like an Eldritch Knight or a Spellsword. The Duskblades I've played and allied with have a specific texture to them, a spell list composed of fighting spells and touch spells, delivered through the weapon. That "touch with a weapon" aspect is one of the reasons the 3.5 version has Tumble as a class skill. Losing that skill makes it harder for the character to maneuver through combat, which I suspect will make your "Duskblades" much more interested in spells with range.
A character using a dagger as a focus, casting charm person and animate dead, doesn't strike me as the same character concept.
Well, the original Duskblade doesn't have tumble as a class skill (I just looked it up). I kept the exact same class skill list!
While I agree that it would be wierd having a duskblade casting charm person or animate dead, there is no way to open up the spell list without giong through every single spell individually. And when a new "book" comes out, you would have to go through each spell again. That is one of the reasons I opened it up to all w/s spells.
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Well, the original Duskblade doesn't have tumble as a class skill (I just looked it up). I kept the exact same class skill list!
I stand corrected. The Duskblade does have Climb, which was folded into Acrobatics along with Tumble. (One of my Duskblades plays under the Pathfinder rules, and so has Acrobatics; the other plays under D&D 3.5, and has a level of rogue, so I've gotten confused...
While I agree that it would be wierd having a duskblade casting charm person or animate dead, there is no way to open up the spell list without giong through every single spell individually. And when a new "book" comes out, you would have to go through each spell again. That is one of the reasons I opened it up to all w/s spells.
Well, yes, but that's just as good a reason for giving the Hexblade, or the Spellthief, or any other partial-arcane caster, the entire Sorcerer / Wizard spell lists. It draws away from the flavor of the class. Full spell access makes this class feel more like an Eldritch Knight or Spellsword, rather than the more narrowly-focused Duskblade.
Well, the original Duskblade doesn't have tumble as a class skill (I just looked it up). I kept the exact same class skill list!I stand corrected. The Duskblade does have Climb, which was folded into Acrobatics along with Tumble. (One of my Duskblades plays under the Pathfinder rules, and so has Acrobatics; the other plays under D&D 3.5, and has a level of rogue, so I've gotten confused...
Well, yes, but that's just as good a reason for giving the Hexblade, or the Spellthief, or any other partial-arcane caster, the entire Sorcerer / Wizard spell lists. It draws away from the flavor of the class. Full spell access makes this class feel more like an Eldritch Knight or Spellsword, rather than the more narrowly-focused Duskblade.While I agree that it would be wierd having a duskblade casting charm person or animate dead, there is no way to open up the spell list without giong through every single spell individually. And when a new "book" comes out, you would have to go through each spell again. That is one of the reasons I opened it up to all w/s spells.
Umm, climb isn't inside of Acrobatics. Page 90 of the core book has climb, and page 9 of the conversion document shows that Balance, Jump, and Tumble are part of acrobatics. All skills that the duskblade does NOT have as class skills.
I agree, I'd rather see the spells restricted, I just hate playing a class that never has support from other books for new spells. I see spells all the time come out in books and say to myself "this would be perfect for a duskblade!" yet they never support the additional classes.
Now, in Pathfinder, there is no Extra Spell feat, which if you take as it is written (and not how it is intended) you could technically select a spell that isn't on your spell list. You can also get around this by using the Drake Helm (eberron explorer's guide) to get a spell that isn't part of your class.
But, how else do we allow the duskblade additional spells that SHOULD be part of their class, without opening it up? I'm open to suggestions. I think it would be up to the player to restrict the spells some, but as we all know we can't rely on that....
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Umm, climb isn't inside of Acrobatics. Page 90 of the core book has climb, and page 9 of the conversion document shows that Balance, Jump, and Tumble are part of acrobatics. All skills that the duskblade does NOT have as class skills.
Thank you for your courteous correction.
I agree, I'd rather see the spells restricted, I just hate playing a class that never has support from other books for new spells. I see spells all the time come out in books and say to myself "this would be perfect for a duskblade!" yet they never support the additional classes.
...
But, how else do we allow the duskblade additional spells that SHOULD be part of their class, without opening it up? I'm open to suggestions. I think it would be up to the player to restrict the spells some, but as we all know we can't rely on that....
Common sense, and the ruling of the individual GMs. After all, the GMs should be allowing, or disallowing, any new material on a case-by-case basis anyways.
Now, in Pathfinder, there is no Extra Spell feat, which if you take as it is written (and not how it is intended) you could technically select a spell that isn't on your spell list.
That's how I always understood Extra Spell. That makes it powerful enough to be worth a feat. How do you think it was intended?
Now, in Pathfinder, there is no Extra Spell feat, which if you take as it is written (and not how it is intended) you could technically select a spell that isn't on your spell list.That's how I always understood Extra Spell. That makes it powerful enough to be worth a feat. How do you think it was intended?
Actually, according to the 3.5 FAQ, page 40, it says:
Can you take spells from spell lists other than your own with the Extra Spell feat (CAr 79)?The Extra Spell feat allows you to choose a new spell, but it does not remove the restrictions of how you would normally pick your spells—so they must be picked from your own spell list.
Umm, climb isn't inside of Acrobatics. Page 90 of the core book has climb, and page 9 of the conversion document shows that Balance, Jump, and Tumble are part of acrobatics. All skills that the duskblade does NOT have as class skills.
That's odd. My PHII, on page 21 under table 1-3 shows the Duskblade as having
Climb
Concentration
Craft
Decipher Script
Jump
Knowledge(all skills taken individually)
Ride
Sense Motive
Spellcraft
Swim
Under Pathfinder
Decipher Script would become Linguistics and
Jump would become Acrobatics
Does your source have a different skill list for the Duskblade ?
Umm, climb isn't inside of Acrobatics. Page 90 of the core book has climb, and page 9 of the conversion document shows that Balance, Jump, and Tumble are part of acrobatics. All skills that the duskblade does NOT have as class skills.That's odd. My PHII, on page 21 under table 1-3 shows the Duskblade as having
Climb
Concentration
Craft
Decipher Script
Jump
Knowledge(all skills taken individually)
Ride
Sense Motive
Spellcraft
SwimUnder Pathfinder
Decipher Script would become Linguistics and
Jump would become AcrobaticsDoes your source have a different skill list for the Duskblade ?
Hmm, It does have Jump...how in the hell I missed that with a COPY/PASTE is beyond me.
I appologize.
Acrobatics should be added to the class list then. I wasn't trying to remove or add any skills, just convert what was there to Pathfinder.
In a little bit (I am at work right now), I'll post up an "adjustment" of the class I had in post 1, to reflect all the stuff that has been spoken about.
Notes:
1) Added acrobatics for the Jump skill. (sorry, missed that one, must be old age)
2) Removed part of Arcane Channeling (I, II, and III) that made you lose the spell if you missed with your strike (from 3.5 FAQ)
Moved Arcane Armor Training (medium) back to 4th level (it’s original level).
3) Added Light Shield and Buckler proficiencies, since you can still cast spells with light shield and bucklers on (according to the 3.5 rules).
4) Added Arcane Armor Training (shields) at 7th level (original level), but made it so you lose ACF for any shield you are proficient with (so if you bust a feat to you a bigger shield, you are safe).
5) Adjusted the end of the “spell” section to remove the “material component” reminder, but added somatic component reminder.
6) Note that Spell Power acts differently than it did in the original version (PHB II). It now damages the SR of the target, allowing all mages to benefit from this effect, although since it is a typed penalty, it will not stack with itself.
7) Took out some of the "comments" I originally made in the first post.
Hit dice: Keep at d8.
BaB: +1 each level
Saves: Good Fort, bad Ref and Will.
Skills: Keep the same, just convert to pathfinder: Acrobatics, Climb, Craft, Intimidate, Knowledge (all, taken separately), Linguistics, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Swim
2 + Int modifier per level
Weapon and Armor Profs: Duskblades are proficient with all simple and martial weapons and light and medium armor. They are also proficient with light shields and bucklers.
Spells: A duskblade casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every duskblade spell has an additional focus component which consists of the duskblade’s weapon (see Arcane Weapon Focus). To learn to cast a spell, a duskblade must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a duskblade spell is 10 + the spell level + the duskblade’s Intelligence modifier.
Like other spellcasters, the duskblade can cast only a certain number of spells per day. His base daily allotment is given on the duskblade table. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.
The duskblade selection of spells is extremely limited. A duskblade begins play knowing 4 0-level spells and two 1st level spells of the duskblade’s choice. At each new duskblade level, he gains one additional new spell. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a duskblade knows is not affected by his Intelligence score).
Upon reaching 5th level, and at every subsequent odd-numbered level, a duskblade can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the duskblade loses the old spell in exchange for the new one.
The new spells level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level duskblade spell the duskblade can cast. A duskblade may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
A duskblade need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spells level. A duskblade may burn a higher level slot for a lower level spell, but he may not use lower level spells to cast higher level ones (through the use of a feat or other special ability).
To cast a spell with a somatic component, the duskblade must have 1 hand free and 1 hand holding his weapon.
Spells progress as such:
1st level: 2
2nd level: 3
3rd level: 3
4th level: 3, 2
5th level: 4, 3
6th level: 4, 3
7th level: 5, 3, 2
8th level: 5, 4, 3
9th level: 6, 4, 3
10th level: 6, 5, 3, 2
11th level: 6, 5, 4, 3
12th level: 7, 6, 4, 3
13th level: 7, 6, 5, 3, 2
14th level: 7, 6, 5, 4, 3
15th level: 8, 7, 5, 4, 3
16th level: 8, 7, 6, 5, 3, 2
17th level: 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3
18th level: 9, 8, 6, 5, 4, 3
19th level: 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 3
20th level: 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4
(yes, this means he gets 6th level spells now!)
Arcane Weapon Focus: A duskblade’s weapon is so intricate to their spellcasting, that all spells cast by a duskblade have an additional focus component of the duskblade’s weapon. This weapon works similarly to the wizard’s bonded object, in that it must be wielded to cast a spell (although, unlike the wizard, you may not make a concentration check to cast a spell without the weapon). If the duskblade loses his weapon, he may not replace (described below) it until he gains another level. If the weapon is broken however (although not through negligence, determined by the DM), he may perform the bonding ritual with a weapon of the same type (longsword, dire flail, etc) as soon as he finds a proper place to do so.
Unlike the wizard’s bonded object, a duskblade may change his weapon upon gaining a new duskblade level. Changing the arcane weapon focus of a duskblade requires the duskblade to perform a meditation for 8 hours with the new weapon. This must be done in complete silence and may not be interrupted. If an interruption occurs, the duskblade may attempt the ritual again the following day, but must pay an additional cumulative penalty of 1 hour of meditation.
Cast in Combat (Ex): Duskblades are so attuned to using magic and casting spells while in combat, that they no longer require concentration checks if they are injured while attempting to cast a duskblade spell. They do still provoke an attack of opportunity if the cast a spell while threatened, but the damage (if any) dealt by those attacks (or other attacks) do not require him to make a concentration check as other spellcasters (see page 206 of the Pathfinder Cole Rulebook).
Arcane Channeling I (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a duskblade can use a standard action to cast any Range: Touch spell he knows and deliver the spell through his weapon with a melee attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less. If the melee attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved. The channeled spell lasts until a successful strike is obtained. If the duskblade channels another spell before the original spell resolves, then the original spell is lost and is replaced with the new channeled spell. If the spell normally allows you more than 1 touch attack, all other attacks are wasted when using the Arcane Channeling ability.
Arcane Armor Training (medium): This ability is the same as Arcane Armor Training (light), except that it may now be used with all medium armors.
Spell Power (Ex): Starting at 6th level, you begin to damage your opponent’s spell resistance when you successfully injure your opponent with a melee attack. If you have injured an opponent with a melee attack, it gains a -2 circumstance penalty to its spell resistance for the remainder of the encounter. This penalty increases to -3 at 9th level, to -4 at 12th level, to -5 at 15th level, and to -6 at 18th level.
Arcane Armor Training (shields): This ability is the same as Arcane Armor Training (light), except that is may now be used with all shields the duskblade is proficient with. A duskblade that casts a spell with Somatic Components will still need a hand free for the proper gestures (or use the Still Spell or Somatic Weaponry (CM) feat).
Arcane Channeling II (Su): At 8th level, a duskblade can now attack with a full action and cast any Range: Touch spell he knows to deliver the spell through his weapon with a melee attack. Casting a spell in this manner does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less. The duskblade still only channels the spell for one attack (usually the first, but it may be a subsequent attack if preferred). If the melee attack is successful, the attack deals damage normally; then the effect of the spell is resolved. The channeled spell lasts until a successful strike is obtained. If the duskblade channels another spell before the original spell resolves, then the original spell is lost and is replaced with the new channeled spell. If the spell normally allows you more than 1 touch attack, all other attacks are wasted when using the Arcane Channeling ability.
Arcane Channeling III (Su): At 12th level, a duskblade that channels a spell using the full attack option, can now have the spell channeled last for 2 attacks instead of one. These attacks must occur sequentially. Once two attacks are successful, the spell is no longer channeled through the duskblade’s weapon.
Arcane Channeling IV (Su): At 16th level, a duskblade that channels a spell using the full attack option, can now have the spell channeled last for 3 attacks instead of two. These attacks need not occur sequentially any longer, but they must occur in the same action (effects such as the Haste spell that grant an additional attack when making a full attack option may channel the spell, allowing a duskblade to attack once with his highest attack bonus (and channeling), once with the second highest (still channeling), two more times as normal, then once with the hasted action (and channeling).
Arcane Channeling All (Su): At 20th level, a duskblade achieves channeling supremacy and a spell channeled through a duskblade’s weapon lasts until the start of his next turn. This includes all normal attacks as well as attacks of opportunity until the duskblade’s initiative in the following round.
we converting or rewriting the class? Not picking on the op but I see alot of reworking class in threads like this and not much conversion.
The class was good, it really just needs the HD to d10. Sure it has dead levels but it gains more spells on each of those level. It needs nothing else, the class works just as it was intended it does not need powered up it does not need holes filled, it works.
Thoughts:
Spells: If you want to allow the Duskblade more spells, but don't want to open up the ENTIRE list, you might say that the Duskblade gets all lvl-0 spells, all spells from the existing Duskblade list, and any other sorceror/wizards spells that 1) have a range of touch or personal or 2) have an effect type of ray or line. Maybe include cones if you're feeling generous. This gives the duskblade stuff to channel (the touch spells), stuff to self-buff (the personal spells) and non-area attack spells (since area effects aren't really a duskblade thing).
Arcane Weapon Focus (AWF): If the penalty for being without your weapon is that severe (loss of all casting ability), then it shouldn't be quite so difficult to replace. Especially in a campaign with slow advancement, waiting until a low level duskblade gains another level to replace a lost or more likely stolen weapon could be quite crippling. If the Duskblade wants to change the TYPE of weapon, that's an entirely voluntary change and can wait for a level advancement. Even so it will be frustrating to have to wait until next level to use that +5 Nifty Weapon of Niftyness from that last dragon horde.
For simplicity, I'd just have the procedure for replacing/changing your AWF weapon refer to the rules for a wizard resting instead of all that stuff about 8 hours of complete silence with the extra hour penalty for every interruption. Or see below.
Since a light shield can be used as a light off-hand weapon for bashing, you might want to limit the choice of Arcane Weapon Focus or you'lll get duskblades who choose the shield as the focus because it's far more difficult to lose a shield (since it's strapped to your arm !) and you don't have to worry about what type weapon you've got in your other hand. Or a Duskblade might wield a dagger in his off-hand (chosing THAT as his AWF). If he doesn't ever actually attack with the dagger, then he doesn't even need two weapon fighting. If this is something you'd rather not have, then I suggest changing AWF to be
Arcane Weapon Focus (AWF): A Duskblade can only channel spells through a weapon that they have attuned to. A Duskblade can only be attuned to a single weapon (or set of two weapons if they have the feat two weapon fighting) at any given time. To attune to a weapon requires the the Duskblade to be proficient with the weapon, practice with the weapon(s) for 8 hours (need not be consecutive, but see below) and expend a spell slot from each level of spell that they can cast. This time is increased by 1 hour for each interruption greater than a few minutes and reduced by 1 hour for each of the following feats that the Duskblade has that are applicable to the weapon(s); Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Arcane Strike
Note that this would still allow a Duskblade to cast his other spells without the weapon.
Arcane Channeling: You have this improving at 3,8,12,16,20. This might better go something like 3,8,13,18 (close to the original at 3 and 13) or 3,6,9,12,15,18. I'd suggest
At level three, channel as a standard action as written
At level six, Duskblades have a conundrum. If they full-attack, they can't channel, and if they channel, they can't full attack. So let them channel as part of a full attack, but only the first successfull attack channels the spell.
At level nine, let the Duskblade take advantage of spells that give multiple touches. The only one I know of is Chill Touch. This would give a reason to actually still USE it at all.
At level twelve, let the Duskblade get a second channeling out of a single spell.
At level fifteen, let the Duskblade get a third channeling out of a single spell
At level eightteen, let the Duskblade get a fourth channelling out of a single spell
As a Capstone, let the Duskblade get full round channelling.
we converting or rewriting the class?
The OP seems to want to rewrite it, converging it with the Spellblade. I agree with you that at this point, it's not a conversion but a revision to suit his tastes. Not that there's anything wrong with that *heh*.
The class was good, it really just needs the HD to d10. Sure it has dead levels but it gains more spells on each of those level. It needs nothing else, the class works just as it was intended it does not need powered up it does not need holes filled, it works.
The arguement has been put forth on another thread that
IF the v3.5 Duskblade was balanced with the v3.5 Fighter (not everyone agrees)AND the Pathfinder Fighter was improved significantly from the v3.5 Fighter (anyone NOT agree ?)
THEN and Pathfinder Duskblade must be similarly improved to still be balanced with the Pathfinder Duskblade. Follow ?
I could go either way with the d8 vs d10. Other than that, I think all the stock Duskblade needs is a few feats, Eschew Materials and Somatic Weaponry and perhaps the ability to count his levels as fighter levels for feat qualification as the Eldrich Knight does.
Perhaps a Duskblade only feat to be made available: Channel Ranged Touch would allow a Duskblade (if he took the feat) to channel spells that normally require a ranged touch attack through his weapon, something that cannot normally be done.
we converting or rewriting the class? Not picking on the op but I see alot of reworking class in threads like this and not much conversion.
The class was good, it really just needs the HD to d10. Sure it has dead levels but it gains more spells on each of those level. It needs nothing else, the class works just as it was intended it does not need powered up it does not need holes filled, it works.
I really don't see how it is a "rewrite" The class skills are the same, the BaB is the same, the abilities are now either the same or slightly modified.
The only thing that is changed are:
1 more spell level
more spells available
not as good will saves
no quick cast (you can't have quick cast with all the spells available)
spell power was made better
you have a reason now to play this class beyond 13th level (before you there was NEVER a reason to play the class past 13th level when you could full channel, at that point, you're better off to either prestige or even go straight FIGHTER to get feats!)
See changing, moving ability about, making it all around better is not a conversion, it's a rewrite. Which is fine, just don't call it a conversion when it reality it is a reversion.
Under the conversion rules you do not need to fill the dead level as it gains new spells on them levels, it has a capstone ability so it does not need one. It needs nothing new. Under the conversion rules you need to fit the HD, to a D10 in this case and change old skills to new skills if needed. Thats it and conversion is done.
Not picking on you but The "Conversion" threads are driving me nuts as no one is trying to convert, everyone seems to be reworking and that is not a conversion. You changed 5 things that were not needed to convert so that is no conversion
See changing, moving ability about, making it all around better is not a conversion, it's a rewrite. Which is fine, just don't call it a conversion when it reality it is a reversion.
Under the conversion rules you do not need to fill the dead level as it gains new spells on them levels, it has a capstone ability so it does not need one. It needs nothing new. Under the conversion rules you need to fit the HD, to a D10 in this case and change old skills to new skills if needed. Thats it and conversion is done.
Not picking on you but The "Conversion" threads are driving me nuts as no one is trying to convert, everyone seems to be reworking and that is not a conversion. You changed 5 things that were not needed to convert so that is no conversion
Ok, I can agree with most of what you said, except for one thing....
Getting an ability 1 more time a day is not a capstone ability. A capstone ability is a reason to actually WANT to play a class to the last level because you get something 'super cool', as it says:
Classes should get something cool at 20th level. This capstone ability should make it truly worthwhile to attain the heights of power in one class.
Yes, I was trying to liven it up some, because as it is, it isn't competitive in comparison to other classes that are similiar (such as Eldritch Knight or Spellblade).
The cap stone is not called for, you gain an ability 1 more time a day, which is fine, you also gain an extra 3rd,4th and 5th level spell. If 3 of your highest level spells and what is really a free quicken spell is not a capstone , I really do not know what you want.
As it stands the class does not need a capstone. You have plenty of incentive to take the full 20 with this class. This is a good example of a class that worked and gave you something at every level.
Sorry to rant on ya man, I am just getting burnt out on conversions that are not conversions and wanting to buff classes that really fit very well within the power level of a party. The dusk-blade is a great example of fast and easy conversion.
Again nothing personal, so please don't take it as if it was. Heh your thread just got lucky enough to be the last straw so the speak. Sorry about that
Why not just play a spell blade from the Tomb of secrets? The duskblade was a decent class as is; I would leave it alone and perform a simple conversion. D10 HD, skill conversion.
The cap stone is not called for, you gain an ability 1 more time a day, which is fine, you also gain an extra 3rd,4th and 5th level spell. If 3 of your highest level spells and what is really a free quicken spell is not a capstone , I really do not know what you want.
As it stands the class does not need a capstone. You have plenty of incentive to take the full 20 with this class. This is a good example of a class that worked and gave you something at every level.
Sorry to rant on ya man, I am just getting burnt out on conversions that are not conversions and wanting to buff classes that really fit very well within the power level of a party. The dusk-blade is a great example of fast and easy conversion.
Again nothing personal, so please don't take it as if it was. Heh your thread just got lucky enough to be the last straw so the speak. Sorry about that
No, I don't think you are ranting on me, but the point I am trying to make is that once you hit level 13 of the original Duskblade class, there is really no reason to continue playing it.
Edit: Yes it may not be a "direct conversion" as you are saying, but it is a conversion in the fact that this duskblade class is in line with the rest of the pathfinder classes in that it gets better as you level in the class, not "once I hit a certain level, I don't need this anymore". One of the points of conversion is that you shouldn't need to take a class for X levels and then be done with it, there should be a real reward for sticking with the class.
There are NO chanellable spells after 3rd level spells, you have your "Arcane Channeling (full attack)" now, AND you have 4th level spells to play around with. You also have Quick Cast 2/day and Spell Power +3.
To continue on after 13th level is futile. You get what? 2 more quick casts, a few level 5 spells (that you CANNOT channel), and 2 more spell power?
Let's compare the "One more quick cast, and 3 more spells" at 20th level, to the other classes, shall we?
Barbarian: Mighty Rage (additional +2 str and con and +1 on will saves while raging) AND another Rage Power
Bard: Deadly Performace (save or die (with DC around 27ish), if no save, still staggered for 1d4 rounds), and +1 6th level spell.
Cleric: Effectively nothing at 20th level, other than +1 to 9th level spells.
Druid: Wild Shape (at will, pretty much any shape you want), +1 8th and 9th level spells, and animal companions get better (with ability score increases)
Fighter: Bonus feat, and Weapon Mastery (auto confirm crits, damage multiplier increases, and cannot be disarmed)
Monk: Damage goes up a die (2d8 to 2d10), AC bonus increase, Perfect Self (Damage reduction 10/chaos), slow fall any distance
Paladin: Holy Champion (increased DR, banish evil outsiders with smite, heal max amount with lay on hands), plus +1 2nd level and 4th level spells.
Ranger: 5th favored enemy (increasing all others), Master Hunter (full speed tracking, can attack favored enemy and if hit it saves or dies (DC around 25)) and +1 spell for 2nd and 4th levels.
Rogue: Master Strike (multiple effects in addition to sneak attacks), and Rogue Talent
Sorcerer: 20th level Bloodline Power, and +2 9th level spells
Wizard: Bonus feat, and 8th level and 9th level spell
Artificer: Exemplar (untraned skills get +10), and +1 4th lvl spell
Knight: Mounted Combat +5
Priest: +1 8th level and 9th level spell
Shaman: +1 8th level and 9th level spell
Spellblade: Infuse Weapon +5 (making their weapon a +5 weapon), and +1 6th level spell
Swashbuckler: Thrust +7d6
Warlock: School Ability (20th level version)!
Warlord: Onward to Victory (self and allies can get free attack)
So now, out of all those OFFICIAL classes, we have only 7 (Cleric, Wizard, Artificer, Knight, Priest, Shaman, Swashbuckler) out of 19 classes that don't get something "really cool" at 20th level. And of those, 5 of them (Cleric, Wizard, Arificer, Priest, and Shaman) are either getting 9th level spells (altering the universe) or are considered one of the most powerful classes ever (Artificer)....That leaves only 2 classes that aren't getting something that you actually want to WORK for at 20th level!
So now, are you going to say that the Duskblade getting one more Quick Cast per day and 1 more spell of 3rd, 4th, and 5th level are equal to those, especially when it's BEST ability, it gets at 13th level?
I wouldn't know, never played one but it stands it does not need a capstone. If you do not wish to play it till 4 20 well thats up to you but it does indeed have a level 20 ability and grants you a bit more then you would if you took something else.Adding un-needed ability to beef it up is not converting. It grants 3 spells and a free quicken spell at 20th which is nice.
Past 13th level you gain 17 spells, acessas to 5th level spells, 5 points of full BAB, 2 spellpowers and 2 quicken spell. Yeah that works fine as 5 levels. You can multi-class but thats plenty to make you want to go full 20. If you think it's weak well re-write it just don't say it's converted, As to convert it it works fine as it did in 3.5
Its an easy converted class. Change to D10 and convert skills.
Oh and there are 11 official classes. None of which fill the fighter/mage roll. The closest is bard so you compare it's power level to a bard. Is it in the same rang of power as the bard? Yes it is. Less spells more damge, more HD, more BAB, so this class is fine.
I"m a fan of the Duskblade and this one is great.
Actually, chose among every Wiz/Sor spell is amazing but still balanced because you only have 1/level and that really makes you think strategically about which one to get.
And yes, there was no big reason to stay until level 20 before.
be happy.
I wouldn't know, never played one
Sorry, but that should sum up about 90% of what you are saying right there. If you had actually PLAYED a duskblade, you would know that after you get full channeling, there is no real reason to continue with the class any longer. That is what the conversion document talks about. There should be a REAL reason to play a class after a certain point, and there just isn't for duskblade.
If you do not wish to play it till 20 well thats up to you but it does indeed have a level 20 ability and grants you a bit more then you would if you took something else. Adding un-needed ability to beef it up is not converting. It grants 3 spells and a free quicken spell at 20th which is nice.
Again, that is where I disagree. It doesn't grant you "more than you would if you took something else". I could jump from that point directly to Eldritch Knight and actually IMPROVE what I am getting.
Past 13th level you gain 17 spells, acessas to 5th level spells, 5 points of full BAB, 2 spellpowers and 2 quicken spell. Yeah that works fine as 5 levels. You can multi-class but thats plenty to make you want to go full 20.
If you go Eldritch Knight at that point, you get, surprise, your access to 5th level spells, and your full BAB. Yes, you don't gain 2 spell powers or 2 more quickens, but those are minimal in comparison to the other two.
If you think it's weak well re-write it just don't say it's converted, As to convert it it works fine as it did in 3.5
I think the class is weak as it is in comparison to other classes within Pathfinder. That is the point of this "conversion". Is it "EXACTLY" what they were before? No, of course not, no class would be unless you did only the very bare minimum (which is what you are suggesting). Hell, even look at the official "11" as you say. Even the most powerful of those, Cleric and Wizard, were "upgraded". Clerics get channeling energy (which is more versatile than turn undead used to be) and Wizards get School abilities.
Those weren't simply "converted" by changing the skills and hit dice!
Oh and there are 11 official classes. None of which fill the fighter/mage roll. The closest is bard so you compare it's power level to a bard. Is it in the same rang of power as the bard? Yes it is. Less spells more damge, more HD, more BAB, so this class is fine.
You are correct that there are only officially 11 classes. I thought the Tome of Secrets was a Piazo thing, since it is on their website. Apparently, it is another company (Damant Entertainment). I stand corrected on that.
But if you are trying to compare the duskblade to the bard, let's not forget that the bard ALSO gets improved songs and the spell selection for a bard is DRASTICALLY larger than the spell selection for a duskblade. It also gets a higher spell level (5th for duskblade, 6th for bard), Versatile Performance (twice), Lore Master once more, Mass Suggestion, and Deadly Performance.
So, let's compair:
Duskblade:
+8 BAB
18 spells
8 spells known
5th level spells
Quick Cast 2 more times per day (3 to 5)
Spell Power +2 (+3 to +5)
Bard:
+6 BAB
12 spells
6th level spells
12 spells known
Frightening Tune
Versatil Performance (twice)
Inspire Competence +2 more (+4 to +6)
Inspire Heroics
Inspire Courage +1 more (+3 to +4)
Lore Master 1 more per day (2 to 3)
Mass Suggestion
Deadly Performance
Now again, I ask you, are you suggesting those two lists are actually equal?? You brought up the bard, so I'm compairing them as you "suggested"
You also gain heavy shield use, medium armor, better weapons, the ability to channel your spell though your weapons. so yeas I find them roughly on par.
Bard
BAB+15/+10+5
hd:8
Svaes; 1 good
Spell level 6
spells per day:30[not counting 0th}
Spells known :40{counting oth}
Dusk blade
BAB:+20/+15/+10/+5
HD:10
saves: 2 good
Spell level 5
spells per day:42[not counting oth}
spells known:25[not counting oth level}
So far they are ion pare, you get more HP, better bab and can cast 12 more spells per day
Bard
Armor/weapons
all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip. Bards are also proficient with light armor and shields (except tower shields). A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor and using a shield without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance
Duskblade
Armor/weapons
Duskblades are profi cient with all martial weapons, as well as all armors and shields (except tower shields). The can cast in meduim and with a heavy shield
Duskblade leads here, easily
Bard number of ability : 30
Duskblade number of ability: 15
Bard has more but half are tied into a limited use ability
So yes they are roughly the same power, the bard is a buffer, the Duskblade is a melee class. The bard is weaker, in melee, use less amro, knows more spells..mostly non combat.
The duskblade is better at combat can cast more spells{mostly combat} channel channel attacks, quicken his spells,overcome spell resistance, and so on
So yes they are in the same power level scale
As for stight Duskblade vs EK lets looks
Duskblade 20
BAB+20
Saves +12/+6/+12
caster level 20
2 extra Qs and a +2 to over come spell power
Duskblade 13/EK 7
BAB +20
Saves +12/+6/+10
Caster level 19
Divers training(useless mostly),2 fighter feats[fighter level 7}
As you can see duskblade 20 wins hands down better saves, more spells, higher caster level 2 QS and +2 spell power...
From what you posted, it is VERY obvious you have NOT played a duskblade then. I'm sorry, but by trying to compare some of that stuff, you have proven what I have said all along. They are NOT even close to being at the same power level.
You think the possibility of 2 more hit points is that big of a deal?
You think that 5th level (highly limited) spells are close in power to 6th level (much more selection)??
You think _40_ spells known is anywhere near _25_ spells known??
You think many weapons are used outside of the ones that the bard already gets? About the only one used would be Great Sword.
You think getting medium armor is worth a huge push? I can easily find light armor that will give me very close to the same stats as most medium armors when you are talking about higher level (10+) characters.
Bard abilities 30 vs Duskblade 15?? I don't care if some of the bard ones are limited or not, THAT is dependant on the campaign. Give me a campaign where it is more intrigue and less fighting, and those bard abilities shine one hell of a lot more than duskblade ones.
The bard is NOT a buffer, the bard is a class is a "jack of all trades" class. The bard can easily go into melee combat quite a bit (I've done it myself) almost as easily as a duskblade!
Quite a few of the bard spells are combat oriented! 1st level has cause fear, confusion lesser, grease!, hideous laughter, sleep, summon monster I, 2nd level has blindness/deafness, blur, all the buff spells, darkness, enthrall, GLITTERDUST, Hold Person, invisibility, mirror image, rage, scare, shatter, suggestion, and summon monster II! You are telling me those aren't combat oriented? And it gets better as you go up!
I'm sorry, I've really tried to listen to what you have said, but blindly following a book for GUIDELINES does not make things correct. A duskblade, as it currently is, would be stupid to play past level 13 9as it is in 3.5).
yeah it is the same level, there is zero point is saying it is not if ya count out the 0th level spells(as I did for the dusk blade} the bard knnows a total of 34 spells to the duskblades 25
The can have an AC 6 points higher then a bard, better BAB, more HP, more spells cast, and all the rest. they are indeed on par
I set and compared them in every category one of the other leads but all in all they are roughly the same power level.
The bard is best at buffing, battlefield control and skills, the Duskblade is better at all out damage, and combat spells.
There is zero point in buffing a clas that does what it was meant to do.
You seem to find the 3.5 class weak, well thats not the PF rules problems you find something weak. The class works, it does what it was meant to do, and converting does not call work buffing classes that do not need it.
What you are doing is making a new class based off the duskblade
As it stands it is roughly in the same power range as the bard and in no need of buffing.I am gonna leave you to your thread now. Sorry to derail, carry on
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I think the biggest changes the Duskblade needed was a d10 hit die, ad Eschew Materials. If you want a Duskblade to have access to a wider range of spells, I would suggest something along the lines of the War Mage's Ecclectic Learning alternative class feature in PHB 2. I would right it something like this:
Esotiric Knowledge: At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level you may replace one spell that you know with a Sorcer/Wizard spell not normally on the duskblade spell list. The spell functions as being one level higher than normal, and you must be able to cast spells of the higher level to select it. Spells gained in this way are not eligable for the duskblade's Quick Cast ability.
Now the duskblade can cast the Fireball that he always wanted, bgut he can't lean it until 15th level, and it can't be quickened. It is a win-win for everyone.
yeah it is the same level, there is zero point is saying it is not if ya count out the 0th level spells(as I did for the dusk blade} the bard knnows a total of 34 spells to the duskblades 25
The can have an AC 6 points higher then a bard, better BAB, more HP, more spells cast, and all the rest. they are indeed on par
I set and compared them in every category one of the other leads but all in all they are roughly the same power level.
The bard is best at buffing, battlefield control and skills, the Duskblade is better at all out damage, and combat spells
As it stands it is roughly in the same power range
If you throw out 0th level spells, the duskblade knows 21 spells, not 25 (4 are 0th level).
1 hit point, on average, per level is not that huge of a deal.
More spells PER DAY is not the same as more spells available. Especially when a duskblade is HORRIBLE if he isn't channeling a spell EVERY SINGLE ROUND.
And that is where it is very simple to say "You have never played a duskblade" They are no where near equal. I'm sorry, but you even admited it yourself. I'm not even going to continue discussing it with you.
You don't KNOW the class, you haven't PLAYED the class, and you are simply blindly following guidelines and quoting them as "cast in stone rules". If you want that, you may as well just go back to 3.5...there's a reason classes were made better for Pathfinder, and there's a reason for the rules adjustments.
I think the biggest changes the Duskblade needed was a d10 hit die, ad Eschew Materials. If you want a Duskblade to have access to a wider range of spells, I would suggest something along the lines of the War Mage's Ecclectic Learning alternative class feature in PHB 2. I would right it something like this:
Esotiric Knowledge: At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level you may replace one spell that you know with a Sorcer/Wizard spell not normally on the duskblade spell list. The spell functions as being one level higher than normal, and you must be able to cast spells of the higher level to select it. Spells gained in this way are not eligable for the duskblade's Quick Cast ability.
Now the duskblade can cast the Fireball that he always wanted, bgut he can't lean it until 15th level, and it can't be quickened. It is a win-win for everyone.
I had actually tried this method before, and it isn't that bad. I considered something like this actually, and really liked the idea over all. The only problem I had with it is that there are spells that a duskblade SHOULD have, in my opinion. Pretty much any range: touch spell should be available (assuming it is something that would be combat oriented). Someone above suggested adding to the spells available "Any range: touch" and I really like that idea too.
Maybe some type of combination of both of them? One thing that was always disapointing is that new books don't keep support for additional classes, so a duskblade never gets new spells while all the base classes do.
You don't KNOW the class, you haven't PLAYED the class, and you are simply blindly following guidelines and quoting them as "cast in stone rules". If you want that, you may as well just go back to 3.5...there's a reason classes were made better for Pathfinder, and there's a reason for the rules adjustments.
Well I am not blindly doing anything, but converting is not rewriting. Your not converting a class here your remakeing it. Which is fine. And classes were made better tom match class such as the duskblade, there is no point in making a class that is roughly the same power level stronger.I DM so no I have not played this class, I have not played anything outside a pbp in 8 or 9 years that does not mean I have not seen it in action, you are assuming I have never even seen this class before.
It's a fighter with spells in place of feats. You keep saying there is zero reason to take it, I think you are wrong, But thats the good thing about this, we both are right, and we both are wrong.
Anyhow I will leave you to it, good gameing
Someone above suggested adding to the spells available "Any range: touch" and I really like that idea too.
That would have been me. I'm currently playing a Duskblade, so I felt qualified to suggest.
I'm of the opinion, as I stated before, that
IF the v3.5 Duskblade was balanced with the v3.5 Fighter (you many not agree)
AND the Pathfinder Fighter is a boost over the v3.5 Fighter (it is)
THEN the Pathfinder Duskblade needs a similar boost to remain balanced with the Pathfinder Fighter
HOWEVER, I feel that the boost needn't be all that much. D10 HD, Eschew Materials from the start and Somatic Weaponry around sixth or seventh level ought to do it. This does not address the original poster's concern about not taking Duskblade beyond 13th. I doubt my group will ever get that high, so it's not a concern for me.
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It's a fighter with spells in place of feats. You keep saying there is zero reason to take it, I think you are wrong, But thats the good thing about this, we both are right, and we both are wrong.
I have played duskblades, and I feel that this is a fair analysis. The biggest flaw I see in your conversion is that openning the entire sorcer/wizard spell list to duskblades is that it takes away the incentive to play a sorcerer or wizard. I can just imagine having this conversation with one of my players.
Player: You mean I can cast any spell I want, wear armor, and not have a chance for spell failure.
Me: Yeah, but you get less spells.
Player: So? I also get a better hit die and a better BaB, sign me up.
To me the limited number of spells a duskblade gets is a smart limiter. It means that there is some cons to the pro of Armored Mage. I am all for expanding the duskblade spell list, but I think that giving away the whole store is not the way to do it.
Someone above suggested adding to the spells available "Any range: touch" and I really like that idea too.That would have been me. I'm currently playing a Duskblade, so I felt qualified to suggest.
I'm of the opinion, as I stated before, that
IF the v3.5 Duskblade was balanced with the v3.5 Fighter (you many not agree)
AND the Pathfinder Fighter is a boost over the v3.5 Fighter (it is)
THEN the Pathfinder Duskblade needs a similar boost to remain balanced with the Pathfinder FighterHOWEVER, I feel that the boost needn't be all that much. D10 HD, Eschew Materials from the start and Somatic Weaponry around sixth or seventh level ought to do it. This does not address the original poster's concern about not taking Duskblade beyond 13th. I doubt my group will ever get that high, so it's not a concern for me.
I think the "Any range: touch" spell that a wizard/sorcerer has access to should be available to duskblade would solve many of the spell problems that a duskblade has. Someone else said something about charm person or even fireball, and I kind of agree that opening it up could be opening it up too much. The more I think about it the more I like range: touch and perhaps effect: ray. Adding cone, I think would be different than what the class spells are...one vs one spells.
I don't know that you need Eschew Materials, although I suppose you do if you still include heavy shields. Something still feels "wrong" with that, but that could just be me.
I hate to add Somanic Weaponry, mostly cause it isn't IN Pathfinder yet. Sure, it could probably instantly convert...it just feels like something someone could take if they wanted it....
I still feel the biggest problem is 13th level. Sure, if you aren't playing beyond that, it isn't a problem, but if you are, there's no GOOD reason to keep the class.
I had suggested a tiered system, and so did you (SlimGauge) above. You're giving them the ability to full attack and still channel at lvl 6, that feels like cheating somewhat, as you should have to make those decisions (actually, it should be simple, you channel, a spell hitting is much more powerful than that extra attack). That method just doesn't "feel right" either. That feels like you are giving them too much too easily.
I think the "Any range: touch" spell that a wizard/sorcerer has access to should be available to duskblade would solve many of the spell problems that a duskblade has. Someone else said something about charm person or even fireball, and I kind of agree that opening it up could be opening it up too much. The more I think about it the more I like range: touch and perhaps effect: ray. Adding cone, I think would be different than what the class spells are...one vs one spells.
Don't forget the "personal" spells for self-buffs, the other thing that Duskblades do a lot of.
I don't know that you need Eschew Materials, although I suppose you do if you still include heavy shields. Something still feels "wrong" with that, but that could just be me.
Clerics casting with heavy shields has been around since forever. Sword and Board is already at a disadvantage vs two-handed for a class that doesn't have feats to spend on the shield feats.
I hate to add Somanic Weaponry, mostly cause it isn't IN Pathfinder yet. Sure, it could probably instantly convert...it just feels like something someone could take if they wanted it.....
Both Eschew Materials and Somatic Weaponry are also for the two-handed weapon users for DMs that don't allow shifting your grip for somantic/material components for the spell that you're going to channel and then shifting your grip back to properly wield your two-handed weapon. Worth it just to avoid all the discussion.
I had suggested a tiered system, and so did you (SlimGauge) above.
I just took what you had and gave it my own twist as an even finer-grained smoothing. I'm not saying it's THE way to go, just A way to go. I'll still be happy with channeling as originally written, but I disagree with the FAQ about spells that usually give multiple touches not doing so when channeled at low levels.
Don't forget the "personal" spells for self-buffs, the other thing that Duskblades do a lot of.
Yes, personal ones should be allowed as well. You are correct.
Both are also for the two-handed weapon users for DMs that don't allow shifting your grip for somantic/material components for the spell that you're going to channel and then shifting your grip back to properly wield your two-handed weapon.
Wouldn't they have had the same problem in the original 3.5 version though?
I just took what I thought you wanted and gave it my own twist as an even finer-grained smoothing. I'm not saying it's THE way to go, just A way to go. I'll still be happy with channeling as originally written, but I disagree with the FAQ about spells that usually give multiple touches not doing so when channeled at low levels.
Eh, I don't know. I could probably go either way, especially considering the rules says "once you cast another spell with a touch range, while one is already in effect, you lose the original spell"....
Wouldn't they have had the same problem in the original 3.5 version though?
I can't give you the link since they WotC boards are blocked from my current location, but there were threads and threads about it. Do a web-search for "Duskblade Handbook", find the "About Two Handed Weapons" part. I think some discussion and links are in it.
Edit: [url=http://%22http//www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a[/url] might be it. Not sure, I can only see the Google cache, not the real thing.
Wouldn't they have had the same problem in the original 3.5 version though?I can't give you the link since they WotC boards are blocked from my current location, but there were threads and threads about it. Do a web-search for "Duskblade Handbook", I think some discussion and links are in it.
Yes, I have that (I've read through it may times). This may help if you want to get at it: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=525.0
I don't think somanic weaponry is needed though. If the DM is going to be that picky, you will have problems otherwise. Decent idea, just dont' think it is worth adding.
I played a Duskblade from levels 3-15 and I had PLENTY of incentive to keep going after 13. At 13 you pretty much get your most powerful ability(Full Attack Spell Channeling), but the remaining levels give you the Caster Level boost you're going to need against endgame opponents. I had Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and an enchantment on my weapon that allowed me to reduce my opponents Spell Resistance if I struck it, and my spells were STILL getting resisted. If you are playing in a melee-only world then sure, stop at 13. But against epic level spellcasters you're gonna need every level you can get.
Also, in our campaign I found myself using up my highest level spells quite frequently. I would continue Duskblade post 13 just for the extra spells alone. If you play in a campaign where you get in more than 1 encounter per day you know what I mean.
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I played a Duskblade from levels 3-15 and I had PLENTY of incentive to keep going after 13. At 13 you pretty much get your most powerful ability(Full Attack Spell Channeling), but the remaining levels give you the Caster Level boost you're going to need against endgame opponents. I had Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and an enchantment on my weapon that allowed me to reduce my opponents Spell Resistance if I struck it, and my spells were STILL getting resisted. If you are playing in a melee-only world then sure, stop at 13. But against epic level spellcasters you're gonna need every level you can get.
Also, in our campaign I found myself using up my highest level spells quite frequently. I would continue Duskblade post 13 just for the extra spells alone. If you play in a campaign where you get in more than 1 encounter per day you know what I mean.
+1.
I've played a few Duskblades and something that is being overlooked is that while they only get level 5 spells, some of those spells were much higher on the Wizzo/Sorcero lists. The only thing I didn't like about the Duskblade is that there wasn't higher level channelable spells. It seemed like they either just ran out of options in core/PHB2 spells for the task or they didn't look hard enough/make up anything worthy of the task.I think a simple conversion of skills and HD and maybe a minor update to the spell list or an ability to take a couple other spells from different lists that are Touch spells is all that is needed.
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Also saying that there is no reason to take the class past 13th level is totally BS.
Just like any caster, more spells, better Caster level, better variety of spells, access to some really good spells like disintegrate and polar ray, and a number of other minor abilities, on top of full BAB, decent HD, and all that is more than enough reasons to stick with the class.