In 3.5e, Specialist Wizards were locked out of their prohibited spells even from scrolls, wands, and staffs.
But now in Pathfinder they simply have to use two spell slots to use one prohibited spell. But what about Spell Completion/Trigger magic items? I guess you can double the wand and staff charges used, but now what about scroll use?
Well, considering no penalty is listed, I should think no penalty exists, and specialist Wizards can use such toys without penalty.
I guess, but it takes away a lot of the flavor of being a specialist, I think. There should be some penalty.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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In 3.5e, Specialist Wizards were locked out of their prohibited spells even from scrolls, wands, and staffs.
But now in Pathfinder they simply have to use two spell slots to use one prohibited spell. But what about Spell Completion/Trigger magic items? I guess you can double the wand and staff charges used, but now what about scroll use?
They are still on your class spell list in 3.p, so there is nothing preventing you from using the wands.
If you want a penalty, make it take two charges like it takes two slots.
I guess, but it takes away a lot of the flavor of being a specialist, I think. There should be some penalty.
There isn't... and there are a few folks who aren't happy with that. *sigh* gotta take the bad with the good.
I think I'd be inclined to increase the ACTION to use such items to Full Round (maybe also using a Swift Action). In many cases, this doesn't make much of a difference, but there is SOME (you can't use opposed School items during Surprise Rounds, for example, and your Movement options are tighter (5' only).
At least this would be a good approach for Scrolls; Wands are more amenable to using Double Charges.
I think I'd be inclined to increase the ACTION to use such items to Full Round (maybe also using a Swift Action). In many cases, this doesn't make much of a difference, but there is SOME (you can't use opposed School items during Surprise Rounds, for example, and your Movement options are tighter (5' only).
At least this would be a good approach for Scrolls; Wands are more amenable to using Double Charges.
Getting into house rule territory here but:
Maybe a caster level check against the caster level of the item?
Increasing casting time from a scroll is an awesome idea. So is the caster level check idea. I just don't want specialist wizards bypassing bothering to prepare a prohibited spell by just simply getting a scroll/wand for the spell.
How about just applying the same penalty as if you had memorized/cast a prohibited school spell?
AFAIK, the only penalties are: double slot usage and a penalty to Craft Skill Checks.
...Which aren't applicable to using items per the RAW, though you could extend the analogy to Charge consumption (Wands, Rods, etc). If the Specialist wants to Scribe their own Scrolls of Opposed School spells, the Craft Penalty would apply, but that doesn't address purchased/found Scroll usage at all.
Anyhow, I think the houserules suggested here are collectively more than enough to satisfy those wanting more of a limitation on Opposed Schools than the Pathfinder RAW contains.
My bad.
I was thinking of the penalty from the Beta, where you lost your school powers.
Double charges honestly doesn't make sense to me, and of course can't be done with scrolls. I would go with a 1 round casting time on everything, for consistency. (And that's 1 round, not full-round!)
I will say however that if a Wizard who has Abjuration as a forbidden school is going to attune and recharge a Staff of Abjuration, he is going to suffer the specialist breaking penalty for the day.
As mentioned above, there is no penalty for "not keeping kosher" any more; that was only in the Alpha/Beta rules. Now your opposition spells just take two slots to cast at all times.
Then again, I really don't see this as an issue. Using spell completion and spell trigger items is nowhere near the complexity of task as actually preparing the spell for standard casting. So I really have no reason to get bent out of shape for casters using forbidden school items.. it's a good drain on treasure and I see no reason to complicate things further by borking casters this way.
We are discussing ideas for a house rule for folks who feel otherwise, not debating whether or not it is appropriate. If you feel the current rule is good then that's great, this thread really isn't for you.
I will say however that if a Wizard who has Abjuration as a forbidden school is going to attune and recharge a Staff of Abjuration, he is going to suffer the specialist breaking penalty for the day.
Assuming the caster has recharged the staff of a given day he will be shy 2 slots for recharging the item.
So I guess bringing back in the Beta "lose your Specialist benefits for the day" is another house-rule option...
So I guess bringing back in the Beta "lose your Specialist benefits for the day" is another house-rule option...
I don't recall, I don't think you paid the penalty for using items, just for memorizing.
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Then again, I really don't see this as an issue. Using spell completion and spell trigger items is nowhere near the complexity of task as actually preparing the spell for standard casting. So I really have no reason to get bent out of shape for casters using forbidden school items.. it's a good drain on treasure and I see no reason to complicate things further by borking casters this way.We are discussing ideas for a house rule for folks who feel otherwise, not debating whether or not it is appropriate. If you feel the current rule is good then that's great, this thread really isn't for you.
I will say however that if a Wizard who has Abjuration as a forbidden school is going to attune and recharge a Staff of Abjuration, he is going to suffer the specialist breaking penalty for the day.Assuming the caster has recharged the staff of a given day he will be shy 2 slots for recharging the item.
To me, it seems more logical that they can still use some of the items, OR have spells cast from an opposing school on them, for that matter. HOWEVER I do agree that scrolls of an opposing school should have some kind of penalty, because a wand is a wand, its rudimentary usage is fundamentally the same, as is a staff, or some other item that grants usage of spells, yet scrolls still require pretty much the same verbal components, rather than just a command word, or a button. So for scrolls, I might say, a Wizard using a scroll of an opposing school, might incur the same penalties as a Wizard casting a spell without their bonded item.
I might also do something similar for recharging items with spells from an opposing school, because that is a different matter.
To me, it seems more logical that they can still use some of the items, OR have spells cast from an opposing school on them, for that matter. HOWEVER I do agree that scrolls of an opposing school should have some kind of penalty, because a wand is a wand, its rudimentary usage is fundamentally the same, as is a staff, or some other item that grants usage of spells, yet scrolls still require pretty much the same verbal components, rather than just a command word, or a button. So for scrolls, I might say, a Wizard using a scroll of an opposing school, might incur the same penalties as a Wizard casting a spell without their bonded item.
What about the poor Wizard (prohibited school-divination) that has say "identify" in their spell book, spends 2 slots that morning creating a scroll of "identify? Now on top of the RAW penalty, when they attempt to recast from the scroll they get another penalty?
If that is the direction you're going, alright. Just curious. I mean - as a wizard if I defeat some random bbg and take his spell book, am I not going to try to transfer his spells into my spellbook? RAW?
Brian
What about the poor Wizard (prohibited school-divination) that has say "identify" in their spell book, spends 2 slots that morning creating a scroll of "identify? Now on top of the RAW penalty, when they attempt to recast from the scroll they get another penalty?
If that is the direction you're going, alright. Just curious. I mean - as a wizard if I defeat some random bbg and take his spell book, am I not going to try to transfer his spells into my spellbook? RAW?
Scribing scrolls on a day when you might be casting them doesn't make sense when there is no penalty for prohibited schools because you are out the cost of scribing.
Also, compare the 'poor wizard' who prohibited divination to the comparable 3.5 wizard who couldn't scribe or even USE the spell.
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What about the poor Wizard (prohibited school-divination) that has say "identify" in their spell book, spends 2 slots that morning creating a scroll of "identify? Now on top of the RAW penalty, when they attempt to recast from the scroll they get another penalty?
If that is the direction you're going, alright. Just curious. I mean - as a wizard if I defeat some random bbg and take his spell book, am I not going to try to transfer his spells into my spellbook? RAW?
Brian
As I recall, the divination school no longer counts as two schools for being an opposing school... but anyway, the penalties, I believe, only impart a chance that the spell will not successfully be transferred, not that it can't, period... This way you can still do it, but because of your psuedo-neglect in the school of divination, as you're sacrificing your research in that school for your specialization, you're still getting something to show for you lack of a knowledge base in the subject.
And the concern here is mostly about keeping the flavor of wizards and specialization schools. That way it's good compromise between two ends of what I think Paizo is trying to achieve with Pathfinder.
I mean - as a wizard if I defeat some random bbg and take his spell book, am I not going to try to transfer his spells into my spellbook?
You might - if you can afford it.
My 6th level wizard is flat broke and so far has found only two spellbooks, each of which had about 20 spells (though I already knew a few in each book).
I have never spent any gold on a magic item, nor have I spent gold on making any items other than two Identify scrolls. I did buy a dozen or so half-price spells from my academy.
I own 3 minor magic items, and if I sold all three, I would have just enough gold to scribe every spell in the spellbooks I have acquired.
But then, I would be flat broke and have zero magic items at 6th level.
So, yeah, if as a wizard you defeat some random BBG and take his spellbook, you might not even try to transfer his spells to your spellbook for a very long time...
Why even copy them over? And why are you so poor DM_Blake, you giving your money away? By sixth level you should have more than 10k gp, which is a bit more than a few minor items...
Why even copy them over? And why are you so poor DM_Blake, you giving your money away? By sixth level you should have more than 10k gp, which is a bit more than a few minor items...
This is a good question. The rules say you need that much gold to be considered a sixth level character. Otherwise you're not as powerful as one.
He could be running in a magic poor or low finance type of campaign a la Living Greyhawk style.
For now what he can do is use Read Magic or Spellcraft checks and go through the standard routines of preparing from another wizard's spellbook. Not a perfect solution but it may be worth it if there are spells worth casting.
All excellent options, my main concern is that if he is in a magic poor or low finance campaign then that needs to be spell out since that is different that "middle of the road" assumptions on the game world. Those changes very much influence the way you play, the stuff you have, what you should be facing, and what should be expected of you, your character, and the game.
I had a situation recently where we ended the first book of LoF and my character had 1 potion and some mundane armor to its name and that's it. However everything else had gone to the other PC's because they actually needed the gear more: I was the spellcaster of the group and therefore didn't need as much at the low levels as my front line heavy team did (paladin fighter and a whip using bard). After the end of the adventure we divvied up the party loot and I'm much better off now, however If I was to come on the boards and say, "I had no gear at the end of LoF that AP stinks, and blah blah blah" because of that experience it would be out of line with what was actually happening.
Why even copy them over? And why are you so poor DM_Blake, you giving your money away? By sixth level you should have more than 10k gp, which is a bit more than a few minor items...
Yeah, well, I'll take that up with my DM...
I do believe when he is placing his treasures, he considers finding a spellbook to be the equivalent value of its spells. Much like finding a pile of scrolls. So, the fighter gets a magic sword, the rogue gets a magic bow, and the wizard gets a book with some new spells in it.
By that reckoning, those two spellbooks I found are really valuable treasures. And I agree with that reckoning.
Fortunately, once the fighter has his sword, he doesn't have to pay thousands of GP to gain the full use of it. Unfortunately, once I gain that spell book, I have to spend thousands of gold to make full use of it.
He could be running in a magic poor or low finance type of campaign a la Living Greyhawk style.
For now what he can do is use Read Magic or Spellcraft checks and go through the standard routines of preparing from another wizard's spellbook. Not a perfect solution but it may be worth it if there are spells worth casting.
All excellent options, my main concern is that if he is in a magic poor or low finance campaign then that needs to be spell out since that is different that "middle of the road" assumptions on the game world. Those changes very much influence the way you play, the stuff you have, what you should be facing, and what should be expected of you, your character, and the game.
I had a situation recently where we ended the first book of LoF and my character had 1 potion and some mundane armor to its name and that's it. However everything else had gone to the other PC's because they actually needed the gear more: I was the spellcaster of the group and therefore didn't need as much at the low levels as my front line heavy team did (paladin fighter and a whip using bard). After the end of the adventure we divvied up the party loot and I'm much better off now, however If I was to come on the boards and say, "I had no gear at the end of LoF that AP stinks, and blah blah blah" because of that experience it would be out of line with what was actually happening.
This is pretty much what is happening.
For our 6 levels so far, each time we have found a magic item we decide who can use it best and that person gets it. If it's a replacement for something weaker (like getting a +2 sword when he already has a +1 sword) then the weaker item goes back into the pool and we decide who can use it.
Stuff that cannot be used gets sold and the coin divided evenly.
This seems to be the most sensible approach, but after using it for these 6 levels, I'm not sure I agree anymore. As it stands, it has so far vastly favored the melee characters and left my wizard very poor.
While I would feel terrible if we draw straws and I take the only +2 sword that our fighter really needs, just so I can sell it and finance my core class abilities, I also feel terrible having limitations on my core class abilities, and being too poor to even think about crafting a power on my bonded item, or scribing scrolls, etc.
Not to argue or quibble, but have you asked you DM about that?
He maybe thinking that you just aren't using those spells due to not wanting them possibly not even realizing that you need to transfer them over. He's thoughts on this could be very insightful and he may think that you can use them without copying them and simply hadn't told you thinking you "already knew that".
Basically I'm wondering if miscommunication might be the problem here.
I agree that finding a spellbook should be considered in the wizard's wealth, but I generally let wizard's prepare out of any spell book they have after a fairly low DC spellcraft check (if I even bother). A treasure without use shouldn't be considered as player wealth until the player can actually use it in my opinion.
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EDIT:
When we divide up our treasure we subtract the sell price of anything anyone keeps.
For example, My wife had 3,525 gp worth of stuff she wanted after our last adventure, while the other players had 3,325 gp and 3000 gp worth of stuff repectively, I had no actual wealth after the adventure.
We gave everyone enough gp to equal the highest total (my wife's) so one person got 200gp, another got 525 gp, and I got 3,525 gp, then divided the rest of the gp into equal shares which everyone got a part of.
At the start of each adventure we "reset" the party pot to zero and keep track of everything we get during that part of the campaign. Nothing gotten before the start of the current adventure counts against the new totals we earn up as a party. We the new adventure ends we again total up who got what even out the loot then divide out the rest into shares.
As a spell caster I've taken the Craft Wondrous Items feat which has allowed me to even up my "actual" wealth with everyone else's wealth (I don't craft for free in character).
He could be running in a magic poor or low finance type of campaign a la Living Greyhawk style.
For now what he can do is use Read Magic or Spellcraft checks and go through the standard routines of preparing from another wizard's spellbook. Not a perfect solution but it may be worth it if there are spells worth casting.
Problem is, you're not allowed to do that unless you have already written the spell into your own spellbook.
From the SRD:
"A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured."
He could be running in a magic poor or low finance type of campaign a la Living Greyhawk style.
For now what he can do is use Read Magic or Spellcraft checks and go through the standard routines of preparing from another wizard's spellbook. Not a perfect solution but it may be worth it if there are spells worth casting.
Problem is, you're not allowed to do that unless you have already written the spell into your own spellbook.
From the SRD:
"A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured."
You know, that right there is the whole problem.
I have to record them into my own spellbook, an expensive process, before I can use them from the borrowed spellbook.
Which is quite ridiculous, actually.
Why would I bother to use the borrowed spellbook when the same exact spell is in my own book? Well, maybe I leave my book home locked up in my extradimensional vault, guarded by my golems and my death traps, while I carry around the borrowed one - if I lose the borrowed one, I'm not out anything; I still have all my spells safely recorded at home.
Other than that, this whole idea of having to record it in my own book first is rather silly.
Furthermore, my own book ony holds 100 spell levels. Now, if that is all I can ever get, even assuming I can erase old spells and replace them with new ones (still expensive), I will still be limited (at high levels) to fewer spells than a sorcerer!
Sorcerers can carry 153 spell levels, plus 9 cantrips, in their heads at level 20. But the wizard's spellbook only holds 100 spell levels. That's 62 pages less than a sorcerer can simply remember in his brain. Now that's really messed up...
What's that you say?
Get a Blessed Book - sure. Thus wizards are the only class in the game who are required - required to own a specific magic item in order to simply use their core class ability. Heck, a 20th level fighter can swing a rusty, non-magical dagger at an enemy, or even punch it with his bare fists if he has to. For a few gold he can get a normal weapon to use all his feats and specialization. But a wizard must buy a blessed book to use his basic core class ability? That hardly seems fair.
Get a 2nd spellbook - OK, well, if I can use two spellbooks, and prepare spells from both of them, why can't one of them be the book I just pried out of a dead enemy's hand? I have to spend time (and Read Magic) to decipher his spells, but according to RAW, I only have to do that once for a particular spell and then I understand it forever. So now that I understand it, why can't that book be my second spellbook? Besides, I can't find anything in the RAW that says I can own more than one spellbook. Every mention of spellbook is singular (except one plural reference that also refers to plural wizards, so as such I read it that there are plural spellbooks because all those wizards each have one).
In short, there is something very fundamental missing from the RAW - the ability for a wizard to build his own library of spellbooks.
Further, the sheer cost to record these spells is daunting to say the least, as is the dependence on finding a Blessed Book before I run out of room (actually, at 6th level, I have already used 99 pages because I didn't realize the one book limit and filled my book with first, second, and third level spells, as well as nearly 20 pages of cantrips). Oh, sure, I could use up a feat to get Craft Wonderous Items, and assuming I find the time and gold, I can create my own Blessed Book, but that suddenly adds a mandatory feat to the already mandatory magic item - a heavy price to pay to use core class abilities.
He could be running in a magic poor or low finance type of campaign a la Living Greyhawk style.
For now what he can do is use Read Magic or Spellcraft checks and go through the standard routines of preparing from another wizard's spellbook. Not a perfect solution but it may be worth it if there are spells worth casting.
Problem is, you're not allowed to do that unless you have already written the spell into your own spellbook.
From the SRD:
"A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook, but preparation success is not assured."
You know, that right there is the whole problem.
I have to record them into my own spellbook, an expensive process, before I can use them from the borrowed spellbook.
Which is quite ridiculous, actually.
Why would I bother to use the borrowed spellbook when the same exact spell is in my own book? Well, maybe I leave my book home locked up in my extradimensional vault, guarded by my golems and my death traps, while I carry around the borrowed one - if I lose the borrowed one, I'm not out anything; I still have all my spells safely recorded at home.
Other than that, this whole idea of having to record it in my own book first is rather silly.
Furthermore, my own book ony holds 100 spell levels. Now, if that is all I can ever get, even assuming I can erase old spells and replace them with new ones (still expensive), I will still be limited (at high levels) to fewer spells than a sorcerer!
Sorcerers can carry 153 spell levels, plus 9 cantrips, in their heads at level 20. But the wizard's spellbook only holds 100 spell levels. That's 62 pages less than a sorcerer can simply remember in his brain. Now that's really messed up...
What's that you say?
Get a Blessed Book - sure. Thus wizards are the only class in the game who are required - required to own a specific magic item in order to simply use their core class ability. Heck,...
I touched on this on another thread. Here it is in more detail.
Complete Arcane page 140.
It says if you can make a spellcraft check equal to 25+the highest level spell in the book you can attune yourself to the spellbook and use it as though it were your own, but if you fail you cant try again until you gain at least oine more rank in spellcraft.
Also IIRC, a spell book does not hold one hundred spells. It has one hundred pages, and each spell uses a number of pages equal to its level.
I will admit I did not check to see if pathfinder changed the rules for that.
I think a good, balanced house rule would be to give the specialist wizard a -2 penalty on CL checks to use an item from one of his prohibited schools. That would also mean that if the item's caster level is equal to the wizard's, you still have to make the check, with the penalty -- he could only use it automatically once his caster level was two levels higher than the item's.
For balance, I would also give the specialist caster a +2 bonus to caster level checks for items from his specialty school -- thus, a third-level evoker could use a fifth-level evocation scroll automatically, and a second-level evoker would only fail his CL check to use it on a natural 1 (the DC being item caster level +1). What do you guys think?