I'm currently a player in my 4e group, but I will be shifting back into the GM's seat within a few weeks. So I will likely have to deal with this power the party's Invoker revealed the newest ability that she had gained from channeling her deity's power.
She conjured a flag onto the field and announced that everyone within line of sight to it would get a +7 to all defenses as long as she sustained it.
My immediate reaction was disbelief and a request to see the power since this would render all of the attacks against us useless. The power is "Pennant of Heaven's Armies" [Invoker Utility 16, from Divine Power] and that is exactly what it says (plus a bit more).
So, lacking official errata, I'm wondering how to deal with it without being heavy handed. What tactics I can use in any combat without making it so her power isn't rendered completely useless or make it seem as if every enemy seems to be aware of her ability. I could also reduce the power of the ability (by reducing the bonus, reducing how easy it is to use, reducing who is affected by it, or just even naming the bonus rather than leave it unnamed), but I'm not exactly sure where to reduce it to.
The answer I have to it right now is to just go after the fact that it only provides allies the bonus and focus all the enemies attacks on her. Even then, I'm not sure how effective that would be with the rest of the party around to defend her.
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And to try and counter any of the down-ed-ness of the post, a quick comment about one of the rounds of the battle that I found entertaining.
I was playing a Dwarven Warden eschewing the bonuses from the pennant (to give the DM a reasonable target to hit) and was surrounded on all sides by murderous goblins, vicious humans, and cackling gnolls.
Seeing the opportunity for carnage, the party's own goblin artificer dropped one of his bombs right into the space I was standing to strike all the enemies at once. It didn't detonate then, the timer needed to wind down or it needed to be struck for that to happen.
That was when the Sorcerer came in, also seeing the opportunity, he threw his magic explosion of lightning centered on me. It struck me along with several of the enemies and it connected with the bomb as well. The bomb then exploded also hitting me and several of the enemies.
It had seemed that this round, my own allies were as great a threat to my life as the enemies I was facing.
I felt very grateful for when it came to the Deva Invoker's turn, because, he player turned to me and asked, "Are you bloodied?" I was happy that someone in the party was thinking of my welfare and that she would expend some ability to my wounds. I answered yes happily.
She responded somewhat gleefully, "Good, I get a bonus to damage!"
My head hit the table.
Unfortunately, I haven't played in those higher levels enough to know how much a +7 bonus to each player will affect the combat. Obviously it makes a difference, but probably not the same difference it would make for a low level group. I do know that monsters of high levels get pretty hefty attack bonuses (around +20 or so). Even if the power boosts a defense to 35, you still have a 1 in 4 chance of hitting that person with a +20 bonus. I would allow the power to last as is for a while, to see how much it affects those combats in which it is used.
There seems to be a couple things you could do though. You could choose monsters that go after the normally low defenses, like Will. Alternatively, most likely this power would be used for the most powerful encounter of the day. You could boost the attack bonuses of the monsters for just that one encounter by a couple points. That way, the invoker still feels like she's getting a hefty power and nothing is being taken away from her.
Of course, this may be a mistake in the text. I wouldn't be surprised if an errata comes out that says it should be the Invokers' secondary attribute or half the Wisdom modifier. In the meantime, I would experiment. First figure out how overpowered the power is, and then make adjustments behind the screen accordingly.
I'm currently a player in my 4e group, but I will be shifting back into the GM's seat within a few weeks. So I will likely have to deal with this power the party's Invoker revealed the newest ability that she had gained from channeling her deity's power.
She conjured a flag onto the field and announced that everyone within line of sight to it would get a +7 to all defenses as long as she sustained it.
My immediate reaction was disbelief and a request to see the power since this would render all of the attacks against us useless. The power is "Pennant of Heaven's Armies" [Invoker Utility 16, from Divine Power] and that is exactly what it says (plus a bit more).
So, lacking official errata, I'm wondering how to deal with it without being heavy handed. What tactics I can use in any combat without making it so her power isn't rendered completely useless or make it seem as if every enemy seems to be aware of her ability. I could also reduce the power of the ability (by reducing the bonus, reducing how easy it is to use, reducing who is affected by it, or just even naming the bonus rather than leave it unnamed), but I'm not exactly sure where to reduce it to.
The answer I have to it right now is to just go after the fact that it only provides allies the bonus and focus all the enemies attacks on her. Even then, I'm not sure how effective that would be with the rest of the party around to defend her.
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You could always target her since she doesn't receive any of the bonuses to her defenses (a stun or daze attack would be devastating since she can't sustain the effect), but any kind of attack that blinds a PC or blocks line of sight (a wall, a cloud of darkness, etc.) nullifies the effect (terrain would also be your best friend). It also a Conjuration, so any effect that can destroy or dispel one would apply.
In any case, given the disparity between an epic monster's attack modifier and the parties defenses (I'm guessing you're at epic level given that she needs at least a 24 Wis to get a +7 bonus) means that properly leveled monsters are probably not going to consistently whiff on their attacks.
It also depends on the intelligence (experience) of the creatures they are fighting as to how fast they will pickup on what the conjuration is actually doing for the party. Therefore, knowing the invoker or conjuration can be targeted, you could still offer them a couple rounds of glory, until you put a damper on their plans. In addition, it is a daily power, so most likely it would be used against powerful enemies that it may not affect as much.
You could always target her since she doesn't receive any of the bonuses to her defenses (a stun or daze attack would be devastating since she can't sustain the effect)...
Nice point. The cleric would definitely become the focus of attacks in such a case, and as daze and stun are much more common in the higher levels, that makes this power seem less powerful.
Most numerical bonuses remain about as significant at high levels at low - there are only 20 numbers on the die, and removing an enemy's ability to hit on 7 of them is huge.
This is somewhat true, except that the monsters' attack bonuses increase at twice the speed of the players' defenses. This is tempered somewhat by magic items and ability increases. However, I think at those higher levels the players must depend more on their powers for their survival rather than their basic at-wills and defenses. The numbers become a little more complex. In my experience playing the lower paragon levels, the attack and defense modifiers bounced around a lot depending on several factors.
Blazej, have you considered writing Wizards on their website about the power? They usually have a quick response time. They might tell you it's a typo, or they might be able to give a reasonable explanation why they don't feel it's a total power creep.
(I'm guessing you're at epic level given that she needs at least a 24 Wis to get a +7 bonus)
Reasonable guess but, the Invoker and the rest of the party are 16th level (reasonably close to epic), I can only gather from her statements that her character started with an 18 Wis and that Race and Ability boosts from leveling brought it to this (18+2[Race]+4[Boosts at 4th, 6th, 11th, and 14th]).
Blazej, have you considered writing Wizards on their website about the power. They usually have a quick response time. They might tell you it's a typo, or they might be able to give a reasonable explanation why they don't feel it's a total power creep.
I've considered it, but I haven't really seen writing WotC to be the best solution for a quick solution to this issue. I might decide to, but I haven't seen anything from Customer Service that resembles a pre-errata errata. There forums also had an issue following the changes the implemented preventing me from logging in and I haven't really been excited enough to try to solve that.
You're probably not going to get an errata on this for a couple reasons.
1. The power does nothing for the invoker, it only affects her allies. So as a previous poster mentioned, feel free to beat on the invoker exclusively until she decides not to maintain it. Or as previously mentioned, stun or daze the invoker so they either can't sustain the power or must sacrifice all their actions to do it.
2. Block line of sight to the banner. The easiest way to do this is to use powers that conjure up areas of concealment or barriers, and target the banner's square.
Just keep in mind that this is one of the invoker's daily powers so at most you will be dealing with it once per day. You have to be careful not to make it useless all the time, but if the invoker begins abusing it, feel free to give an important enemy a power that can negate it.
My epic invoker has that power. It's really powerful. There are two good ways to negate it. First, stun or knock out the invoker. It'll disappear in a round without the sustain. Second, move the fight. The banner provides the bonuses within line of sight, so moving the fight down a room or two (or around a corner) accomplishes the same thing as stunning the invoker would. There are some times when it might be wise for the monsters to consider a genuinely tactical retreat, and this is one of them.
You're probably not going to get an errata on this for a couple reasons.
1. The power does nothing for the invoker, it only affects her allies. So as a previous poster mentioned, feel free to beat on the invoker exclusively until she decides not to maintain it. Or as previously mentioned, stun or daze the invoker so they either can't sustain the power or must sacrifice all their actions to do it.
I would suggest it does one of the greatest things a power can do. It forces my decision making to be aware of it before the battle. Once the battle starts, as soon as this goes up, the party will know all the attacks will be going at one target.
I'm playing a defender and I wish I could force enemies to attack me like this. This ability to force the enemy to attack in the way that you want is incredibly strategically important in my mind. Forcing the enemies to concentrate the attacks on the Invoker, make things much simpler for the party.
Since I previously played a Wizard with a variety of conjurations, I'm aware of the dangers effects like dazed, stun, and dominate present my character. From my position, I was very protective of my conjurations, and I know that if I was focusing on something anywhere near as powerful as the Pennant, I would gladly (and have) spent my dazed turns saying that I sustain my power and that I was done.
However, stunning, while certainly available at higher levels, is no where near common enough for me to include in battles such that the Invoker is going to be stopped by it. And even in some of those cases I would be forced to hold back the stunning power so that it would be available to counter the power.
2. Block line of sight to the banner. The easiest way to do this is to use powers that conjure up areas of concealment or barriers, and target the banner's square.
That is a reasonable tactic, and will likely use it if the monster has that ability, but again, I don't see it as incredibly common, but combined with stunned and dominated, I think I might be able to take care of a decent amount (1/3 - 1/2) of encounters without purposefully focusing on defeating her and that ability.
Just keep in mind that this is one of the invoker's daily powers so at most you will be dealing with it once per day. You have to be careful not to make it useless all the time, but if the invoker begins abusing it, feel free to give an important enemy a power that can negate it.
While I'm fine with trying to prevent any sort of "what do I do now?" panic that I might experience when this pops up, honestly, if I have to consider giving my important monsters an "Immunity to that Invoker' Power" ability, then I am going to view the power as overpowered and in need of revision. I'm not going to place myself in the position where I'm silently blocking her power rather than being upfront about it.
If this power is enough for me to consider a complete retreat, then I'm going to view it as overpowered. If it is good enough to cause a complete retreat, then I would suggest, if the party is not in a rush, that it is good enough to take an extended rest for after one encounter.
Thinking, if this power had came from any other book other than from WotC, it probably would have been dissallowed on sight. I'm not sure if I should be giving this power any special treatment just because WotC made it rather than Goodman Games or such. Right now, I favor using one of Matthew's suggestions for possible modifications to power rather than dealing with it exclusively in the world.
But it is several weeks away still, and I might get an opportunity to see the power activated one more time before I take the GM's seat, while considering everyone's suggestions and comments here and that might change my opinion of it.
I think that's a pretty broken power relative to other powers of that level. It adds your wisdom modifier to all defenses and to damage rolls. I would put some higher limitations on it. Off the top of my head- maximum of a +5 bonus, and a move action to sustain.
On the other hand it can force the monsters to use some interesting tactics, as some of the others have mentioned. Even a drow's darkness power can easily cut of line of sight to the pennant, so if they have any means of blinding PCs the power is negated.
Or you can make that specific conjuration targetable, ala capture the flag goodness. Similar to a shaman pet.
I've got to agree that this power certainly sounds broken.
My experience has been that if the answer to a power is the DM must adopt certain specific tactics - especially ones along the lines of needing to have a certain ability in the hands of the monster then the gig really is up unless the ability is ubiquitous and the answers equally ubiquitous.
If the characters use this they'll also immediately move to protect the Invoker. If there are tons of range enemies they won't use it, if the enemies clearly have lots of ways of saving they'll either have a counter of their own. The powers just going to get worse as well as it goes up int +8 and +9 at epic levels, 7 shifts on a d20 roll is just to much.
Fundamentally this power is pretty much a suto-win every time its used. The DM should just save all the boring dice rolling and announce 'YOU WIN' every time its used. If the DM is somehow trying to counter it then it probably means that the encounter is nearly an auto defeat for the players if they don't use it (maybe they screwed up and thought they needed it in a fight prior to the BBEG).
Until it gets some errata I'd just outlaw the power myself.
Correct me here its limit is line of sight?
So what would happen if someone dropped some kind of obscuring mist, fog or whatever ability that covers the area its in thereby blocking all visible sight of said pennant, wouldn't that neutralise its effect?
Correct me here its limit is line of sight?
So what would happen if someone dropped some kind of obscuring mist, fog or whatever ability that covers the area its in thereby blocking all visible sight of said pennant, wouldn't that neutralise its effect?
Yes it would. So dousing the torches would nullify its effects.
Yes it would. So dousing the torches would nullify its effects.Correct me here its limit is line of sight?
So what would happen if someone dropped some kind of obscuring mist, fog or whatever ability that covers the area its in thereby blocking all visible sight of said pennant, wouldn't that neutralise its effect?
Still bad at the game table - here we end up with either the DM totally rips you off for your daily (and every BBEG is designed to be able to nullify this power) or you auto win.
Still bad at the game table - here we end up with either the DM totally rips you off for your daily (and every BBEG is designed to be able to nullify this power) or you auto win.Yes it would. So dousing the torches would nullify its effects.Correct me here its limit is line of sight?
So what would happen if someone dropped some kind of obscuring mist, fog or whatever ability that covers the area its in thereby blocking all visible sight of said pennant, wouldn't that neutralise its effect?
I'd be more concerned if they use this ability every time they could, forgetting that unless they take down their foe before they escape they could figure out how to render this ability useless simply because they didn't take any precaution to safeguard their power's weak spot.
Of course there's nothing to say it needs to be used out in the open to prevent this from being blocked, its a lot harder to nullify this power if its say a bright sunny day with little or no clouds meaning as long as they're careful it isn't going to be nullified that easily unless they don't take precautions, I'd say if they do overuse it let them find out when they're facing something not that overwhelming so they understand it does have restrictions even if it gets their dm called names since some players might find this a mite objectionable.
I'd be more concerned if they use this ability every time they could, forgetting that unless they take down their foe before they escape they could figure out how to render this ability useless simply because they didn't take any precaution to safeguard their power's weak spot.
Of course there's nothing to say it needs to be used out in the open to prevent this from being blocked, its a lot harder to nullify this power if its say a bright sunny day with little or no clouds meaning as long as they're careful it isn't going to be nullified that easily unless they don't take precautions, I'd say if they do overuse it let them find out when they're facing something not that overwhelming so they understand it does have restrictions even if it gets their dm called names since some players might find this a mite objectionable.
I'm not really following your train of thought. I think we might be talking past each other. Essentially my problem with the power is that it forces the DMs hands. Its so powerful that its an auto-win every time it is successfully used. Thats bad in just about any encounter as the players will only use it if they are feeling heavily challenged but it turns all those really tough and challenging encounters into lame pushovers.
So thats problem number one - and from a meta game perspective its important to note that whenever this occurs everyone at the table actually looses - I'm a player in 4E and the absolute most tension filled and exciting points of the campaign are not when the encounter was misjudged by the DM (as has happened) and we obliterate the BBEG fight. I recall when that happened and it was not particularly great.
Quick character story to illistrate my point.
The absolute best encounters were stuff were it came just to the edge. The last really great encounter I was in we had used so much taking down the leader types and the minions etc. that we were totally out of everything as the encounter rolled to an end. So we get down to the last orc - and this guy is nothing special, he's just one of five orcs that were in this room along with the minions and the big bad leader types. But we are so beaten up that we have nothing left except at-wills, no healing and single digits for hps for every character. So this one last orc starts chopping through the party - takes down 4 of the 6 characters over successive rounds so, of course, we are freaking out - we are going to loose to the orc. When that orc finally went down it was epic and it was an epic built on a great fight even up to that point.
My point is that if the players have an auto win power that blows chunks and they loose because of it and so does the DM. Furthermore its pretty much always a loss. If the players auto win then that blows. If the DM nerfs it then the player has just been denied the chance to use their totally cool daily power so that blows for the player. If the BBEG is constantly forced to flee the epic scene of the final encounter designed to be a fight on swinging bridges over lava - well that blows too.
It does not matter, really, if the players abuse it or not, its just always going to be bad when it comes into play - bad if the DM counters it and bad if s/he does not. I mean its a daily - its supposed to be used as much as every other Daily and its supposed to provide a similar level of fun and excitement.
Really at its core anytime a player has an ability thats so omni-present that the very fabric of the game world needs to be twisted into a pretzel by the DM just to take into account that power then its a badly designed power. It'll usually either work to well or always be nerfed by the BBEG and thats not a good or fun way to play the game.
Of course there's nothing to say it needs to be used out in the open to prevent this from being blocked, its a lot harder to nullify this power if its say a bright sunny day with little or no clouds meaning as long as they're careful it isn't going to be nullified that easily unless they don't take precautions, I'd say if they do overuse it let them find out when they're facing something not that overwhelming so they understand it does have restrictions even if it gets their dm called names since some players might find this a mite objectionable.I'm not really following your train of thought. I think we might be talking past each other. Essentially my problem with the power is that it forces the DMs hands. Its so powerful that its an auto-win every time it is successfully used. Thats bad in just about any encounter as the players will only use it if they are feeling heavily challenged but it turns all those really tough and challenging encounters into lame pushovers.
Sorry about that, you'd think my grammar would be better or in this case not completely messed up as I should have said needs to be underground or inside to be blocked rather than outside where it would be more difficult to counter it.
Serves me right not to read what I type more properly!
I'm curious to know if your invoker PC has actually had a chance to use this power yet? How did it actually play out?
Honestly, as a fellow 4E DM, I know a lot of stuff looks powerful on paper, but when you play it out in game, you may find it surprising how little effect it could have.
So +7 defense and damage to your entire party minus the invoker sounds powerful yes, but it could stand a good playtest to see how it actually pans out. Maybe play the same encounter twice through, once with the power, once without, and maybe even a third time with the baddies ganging up on the invoker. See what the results are first hand.
Just an idea.
I'm curious to know if your invoker PC has actually had a chance to use this power yet? How did it actually play out?
Honestly, as a fellow 4E DM, I know a lot of stuff looks powerful on paper, but when you play it out in game, you may find it surprising how little effect it could have.
So +7 defense and damage to your entire party minus the invoker sounds powerful yes, but it could stand a good playtest to see how it actually pans out. Maybe play the same encounter twice through, once with the power, once without, and maybe even a third time with the baddies ganging up on the invoker. See what the results are first hand.
Just an idea.
Assuming the question was for me, then yes the Invoker first used this power last week about half-way into the battle.
The effect the power had on the combat was cause all the enemies to have a minimal chance of hitting any of the characters (rolls of 19 or 20, I think). They were still dealing damage each round because they each had an ability along the lines of "Brawler: When this creature attacks a target, the target takes 5 damage at the beginning of their next turn." At the point where the pennant was on the field, there were eight creatures left so all together they were dealing 40 damage per turn, no matter what.
There was a misinterpretation at the time, leading the party to believe that the Invoker got the bonuses as well, but due to some of my unused powers, I don't think that would have had a great impact on the way combat turned out.
Given for the weekly 4e game, it is very uncommon to have more than one battle, so I wasn't really in the mood to spend that weeks session with a boring encounter that wasn't any threat to my character, which is why I had my character choose to stop benefiting(Also, spending two encounters, or even one, testing this power is just an intrusion on the game. If during game play, too powerful powers are revealed, then there isn't going to be a period of testing to confirm this. We just don't have that time to spend.)
By my not accepting the bonus, the DM choose me as the single most viable target and had all the enemies direct their attacks at me. I got hit several times over the next few turns because of rolls that would have missed if I had the bonus, from allies and enemies those attacks totaled to around (if I recall correctly) 70+ damage. A minor number in comparison to their automatic damage, but it was enough to knock me down. However, at that point, the party had already reduced their numbers to three, so at that point they couldn't mount any significant attack on the rest of the party. A few dailies had been expended, but those were prior to the Pennant appearing, once it showed up, there was little to no pressure on the party to expend their large powers. Any that were used were caused by the rare chance to hit eight enemies with a burst 1 or something like that.
The only reason why these enemies had any sort of impact on the party at all was because of their large automatic damage. If they actually had to rely on hitting, or any other counter to this ability, this battle would have done minimal damage. If the party had to go without the Pennant it would have been a difficult battle, but with everyone using it the battle would have been easy.
Following the advice of seeing the result first hand, as I did this battle and considering them, as GM my decision is easy. The power is banned or it's power is drastically reduced. It is too powerful to deal with unless I counter it.
Currently, as the player of the Dwarven Warden, I'm not in the position to dictate what powers are barred or allowed, so I'm just considering my response to some of the counters that I am responsible for stopping (retreating and attacking the Invoker).
While I might get to see the power activated again, if I had to go by what I have seen first hand right now, it is too powerful and inappropriate for the game. The "fix" that is in my mind currently is name the bonus to saving throws and damage as a power bonus, then change the bonus to AC to a resist all damage ability, but again, it is still several weeks until I have to make this decision so I'm not sure if I will end up changing my mind in one way or another.
I'm curious to know if your invoker PC has actually had a chance to use this power yet? How did it actually play out?
Honestly, as a fellow 4E DM, I know a lot of stuff looks powerful on paper, but when you play it out in game, you may find it surprising how little effect it could have.
So +7 defense and damage to your entire party minus the invoker sounds powerful yes, but it could stand a good playtest to see how it actually pans out. Maybe play the same encounter twice through, once with the power, once without, and maybe even a third time with the baddies ganging up on the invoker. See what the results are first hand.
Just an idea.
No, in this case it just really is that awesome.
Well, I dunno about banning the power outright. I'd maybe just remove the "sustain" line from the power, so it only lasts until the end of the invoker's next turn.
That way its still powerful and does what the invoker wants, but won't necessarily ruin the entire encounter.
My vote, Ban it or halve its effectiveness.
If the player doesn't like it then just send a mirror image encounter against them (an enemy who is an invoker or who has the power of one). See if they then understand the issue.
Is it really that powerful a spell if the BBEG's caster makes a spellcraft / Knowledge arcana check, and then spends a round or two making his way there to drape his cloak over it? The character gets his spell off a few rounds of use, but it isn't game breaking.
(What about a dispell magic on it?)
I did a comparison accross 16th level level utility powers for each class that are daily powers. It is indeed broken. I would just make it a +2 bonus, and keep the rest as is.
BTW, I'm sure it doesn't help now, but this power got nerfed hard in the lastest December 2009 update. It now provides a bonus to saving throws against fear effects and damage rolls equal to the invoker's Intelligence modifier.
BTW, I'm sure it doesn't help now, but this power got nerfed hard in the lastest December 2009 update. It now provides a bonus to saving throws against fear effects and damage rolls equal to the invoker's Intelligence modifier.
Yep, looks like this power is no longer a balance concern.
BTW, I'm sure it doesn't help now, but ...
Thanks. That definitely sounds more reasonable. Although, I think I might end up standing by the adjustments I made to the power last time (even though it might often leave the power being too strong) just so it doesn't feel like I'm continually messing with the choices the player has made. Would definitely put it into effect for any players wanting to make a new character with that power.
I'm definitely happy that they managed to get around to this power, but given how many weeks have past since me actually having the issue, I'm more confidant in performing my own adjustments for unbalanced abilities (for my own games), rather than just waiting for an update to come down on the ability.
BTW, I'm sure it doesn't help now, but ...Thanks. That definitely sounds more reasonable. Although, I think I might end up standing by the adjustments I made to the power last time (even though it might often leave the power being too strong) just so it doesn't feel like I'm continually messing with the choices the player has made. Would definitely put it into effect for any players wanting to make a new character with that power.
I'm definitely happy that they managed to get around to this power, but given how many weeks have past since me actually having the issue, I'm more confidant in performing my own adjustments for unbalanced abilities (for my own games), rather than just waiting for an update to come down on the ability.
If your players use the CB, the errata will be automatically incorporated into the character once they install the monthly update.
If your players use the CB, the errata will be automatically incorporated into the character once they install the monthly update.
Do they only get the "errata" update if they are currently subscribed to D&D Insider?
Either way, I'm not sure about what she is using to make her character. She might have used CB initially, but has been writing a few other powers in here and there rather than printing off a new sheet.
I've been pretty pleased with the recent initiative in the last two months to push forward errata. Some of it was a long time coming, admittedly, but now that it seems a regular process, I'm hopeful there won't be nearly as much of a delay in the future.
Definitely. Overall for them to have an impact on my games, I do "need" the updates before the player chooses the power/feat/other thing. The rate updates are currently coming should satisfy that well enough most of the time.