Yeah, really.
In my games, if you're a non-spontaneous spell caster, you have to provide me with a list of your "default spell set" for any given day. If you want to alter them day to day, or leave them open, fine, just let me know.
Having to have that list ahead of time is one of the few balancing factors of a high level wizard. Going against devils today? Wish I'd memorized more lightning bolts.
Then the DM will just bend you over tailoring encounters to foil your spells. What an insult! Like I'd need to do that! I'll give you encounters where every last one of your precious spells is uniquely suited to break glutes . . . and I'll still bend you over. So don't give me that.
Aside, I don't really do that. For instance, a character had cold resistance and there was no way for the winter wolves to know that, so every chance they could, they breathed. Now, if its an intelligent villain who's studied the group, that's different . . .
I look at fire and forget kind of like cramming math formulas. I can't cram them all, but I can choose a few. The more often I do it (gain levels) the more I can store. Why do they get forgotten? Well, ever crammed for a test? Right after you took it, you forgot everything. This ain't learning, its cramming. And said it was "kind of."
Magic being involved and all.
This is where a bonded item is far superior to a familiar of any kind.HAHAHA.... oh you're not joking...I'm sorry.
He is not joking he is right, VERY right, I might add.
Here are a few interesting side notes:
1. A potion of Cure Light Wounds costs 300 GPNo! it's 50gp!
, a scroll of the same costs 150. I guess it is cheaper since only certain classes can use it?No! it's 25gp!
Bad math!
Oh, ouch, my bad indeed, though not the math. I had been thinking Cure Moderate Wounds. Not sure why I wrote Cure Light Wounds.
Obviously, the prices I quoted were for 2nd level spells.
Forgive my indiscretion, but blame not the math.
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And then you end up with watered-down magic where a Fireball or Lightning Bolt spell for a 30th-level Wizard is limited to ONCE a day, twice if you choose Archmage Paragon Path. Also, you've got the melee characters doing the exact same damage as you and being just as effective at everything you do, with the only saving grace is you can "hit more of them at once".
I don't know 4e well enough to say that I may not agree with you if I ever got to play at that level in 4e (I haven't played any version of D&D above 6th level, and that is in my current game!)
But, in 4e, it isn't just Dailies and level 1 At Wills you need to think about, but Encounter Powers. By 30th level it seems like you will have 4 Encounter Powers that could be levels 13th, 17th, 23rd, and 27th. And these powers can effectively be used loads of times a day if used in different encounters.
So that Black Fire Encounter Power you got at level 27 that deals 6d6 + Int damage to every one in a 5x5 close blast, could be used on the guards outside the keep (one encounter), the guards on the wall, the guards inside the gatehouse, the guards in the keep and teh final bodyguards of the duke (assuming you can catcha 5 minute breather between tackling those foes).
As for balance with melee PCs, that was one of the goals of 4e it seems, and one based upon making it a more enjoyable game for the players, rather than any in-game logic. It may not play to your likes, where you may wish for one player to overshadow all others if it makes sense in-game, but that doesn't make it a legitimate goal of game design.
Anyway, on with the thread!
He is not joking he is right, VERY right, I might add.This is where a bonded item is far superior to a familiar of any kind.HAHAHA.... oh you're not joking...I'm sorry.
The bonded Item can do that once a day, you get the scrolls and your familiar can do it for you several times a day (provided you take Use Magic Device), and the familiar is a real asset that sticks around and gives a +2 to everything you do (beyond the bonus alertness feat and skill/save bonus), and an extra action as well as a "redo" on rolls since it rolls separately from you.
Heck drop a few spells on it and the familiar can be a legitimate threat in it's own right.
If you need spells to be cast more times a day, than build yourself a wand. By far the cheapest gp/use thing. Of course that you can also store some energy in a good trusty staff, which can be recharged for free over time ;)
Aside, I don't really do that. For instance, a character had cold resistance and there was no way for the winter wolves to know that, so every chance they could, they breathed. Now, if its an intelligent villain who's studied the group, that's different . . .
Winter wolves are about as smart as the average human. If you're playing them as stupid animals who just happen to be able to breath frost, then you're not playing them according to the MM. Heck, even normal wolves will break off an attack that doesn't go the way they planned (and they do plan).
That's one of my pet peeves with 3rd edition, for the record. There are quite a few highly intelligent animals that exist in reality, yet animals are defined to have no more than 2 intelligence.
I'm in agreement with the OP, but I'm pretty dissatisfied as a whole with the entire way that magic and spellcasting works in 3e. However, I found a really good system in EN Publishing's product "Elements of Magic."
It ditches the pre-made spells that have been a staple of D&D in favor of a spell-creation system that can re-create almost all of the core d20 spells, as well as create new custom spells.
It includes a spellpoint system, but there's also a skill-based magic system in EOM: Mythic Earth.
Anyway, I'll stop before I sound any more like an advertisement. But if you don't like the d20 spell system, I highly recommend Elements of Magic.
Aside, I don't really do that. For instance, a character had cold resistance and there was no way for the winter wolves to know that, so every chance they could, they breathed. Now, if its an intelligent villain who's studied the group, that's different . . .Winter wolves are about as smart as the average human. If you're playing them as stupid animals who just happen to be able to breath frost, then you're not playing them according to the MM. Heck, even normal wolves will break off an attack that doesn't go the way they planned (and they do plan).
That's one of my pet peeves with 3rd edition, for the record. There are quite a few highly intelligent animals that exist in reality, yet animals are defined to have no more than 2 intelligence.
Intelligence is for learning and reasoning. Wisdom represents the intuition and common sense... normal wolves are fine this way IMO.
And toward the winter wolves - you are right of course.
Intelligence is for learning and reasoning. Wisdom represents the intuition and common sense... normal wolves are fine this way IMO.
You're telling me that wolves are nearly incapable of reasoning? That doesn't explain very well how they will abandon a hunt rather than risk injury, for example. That's clear logical thinking: "better to stop now before I get hurt and become incapable of hunting".
And it's not just wolves, either. All kinds of animals have been shown to be capable of both learning and reasoning. Chimpanzees craft and use tools, for example, and dolphins and sea lions can and have been trained to identify and locate underwater mines. Heck, there's a gorilla that speaks in sign language with a rather broad vocabulary (1,000+ words). By D&D definition, intelligence less than 3 means you're unable to understand languages.
I just want to proclaim my undying adoration of Vancian Spellcasting!
I also want to proclaim my undying adoration of Pathfinder, which is undyinger than that of Vancian Spellcasting!
The reason for that is the "it's your game" mentality. They try their best to support many styles. Styles of play, styles of adventure, styles of everything. No "If you don't do it our way you're doing it WRONG!" crap.
Yay for freedom!
Hell... I hate dwarves and paladins, but cutting them out of the game because I find them useless and pointlessly frustrating would have been a tragic mistake.
The same here. To a certain extent.
Actually, it's more that I hate the people who use dwarves and paladins as an excuse to be a#&#%&~s. I do admit that the sheer amount of dwarf-jerk-ism I was exposed to has turned that hate into a hate against dwarves to a point.
It's better with paladins: I've seen more than a few paladins be played just like everything else (especially if we talk about new and inexperienced players), or made really great and memorable characters out of them.
But, in 4e, it isn't just Dailies and level 1 At Wills you need to think about, but Encounter Powers. By 30th level it seems like you will have 4 Encounter Powers that could be levels 13th, 17th, 23rd, and 27th. And these powers can effectively be used loads of times a day if used in different encounters.
Oh I am aware of Encounter powers. I made no mention of them mainly because, to me, they're just like Daily ones. If you're in a prolonged battle (and having DMed 4E to test it out and have a stronger base of opinion and debate on) those Encounter powers are gone quickly, leaving you with, yet again, Magic Missile or Scorching Burst a dozen times to throw around the field as a 30th-level character.
I just find it funny and ironic in the all the flavor text of all the 4E material I read on spellcasters, they state to the player that their magic can take down towers and keeps with ease and decimate armies and such, but such magic in 4E is limited to small areas and like 2-3 powers before you have to rest for 5 minutes inbetween all of them. (heck, the poor guys can't even fly anymore, not without losing all their actions which makes no sense). Now a 3E spellcaster at 30th-level is what truly can bring down towers, keeps, and armies with ease while still doing the laundry :D
I've played a sorceror and a wizard both in different campaigns, and I'd have to say that picking spells is an important distinction between the classes.
As a wizard, the DM had me prepare a default list of spells that, if I didn't tell him differently, were the spells I had available that day as a wizard. When my character was out in the field and expecting combat, I'd prepare spells like magic missile, shocking grasp, acid arrow, and mage armor. When he was just knocking around a town, it was a lot more general use spells, with maybe one or two spells suited for self-defense. After all, if my character wasn't expecting a serious fight, why load for bear? (He wasn't paranoid, yet). It also fed into what sort of spell ingredients I needed to look for in shops, and basically helped shape a lot of what my character did when he wasn't frying kobolds.
As a sorceror, I had a much smaller spell selection and while I didn't have to prepare spells, I still felt limited. Of course, since this character was a bit of a pacifist, or at least not aggressive, his most powerful offensive spell until he reached 5th level was "Acid Splash". So part of that was the concept I was playing. Of course, since we were facing a lot of undead, spells like Scorching Ray or Burning Hands would have been really useful. It's just that he didn't know them, and as a result very much changed how I went through the game.
Honestly, while the "fire and forget" idea may seem silly, I view it as like having certain calculus formula memorized until they're recited. A wizard has to exactly perform an incantation, use the right materials, and make the right gestures, in accordance with a metaphysical equation. Something that complicated is hard to keep intact in one's memory unless you concentrate on it.
Honestly, while the "fire and forget" idea may seem silly, I view it as like having certain calculus formula memorized until they're recited. A wizard has to exactly perform an incantation, use the right materials, and make the right gestures, in accordance with a metaphysical equation. Something that complicated is hard to keep intact in one's memory unless you concentrate on it.
While that's certainly a valid and useful view, the official description is that all spells are lengthy, drawn-out affairs. What you do when you prepare spells at the start of the day is to cast most of the spell and leave only the last few seconds "hanging", ready to be called upon at need later on. Even simple spells like magic missile might actually take a full minute of chanting and dancing to cast from scratch; preparing them means you've done all that chanting and dancing except for the last/most critical three or four seconds ahead of time.
This also neatly explains why characters with exceptional memories don't get bonus spells per day. Memorization has nothing to do with it, really. It's all about how much raw power you can leave right on the very edge of exploding without having the entire thing blow up on you at once.
Y'know, for those of you who don't like fire-and-forget, 3.5 psionics is one of the most balanced and sensible spellcasting mechanics in the entire game.
Intelligence is for learning and reasoning. Wisdom represents the intuition and common sense... normal wolves are fine this way IMO.You're telling me that wolves are nearly incapable of reasoning? That doesn't explain very well how they will abandon a hunt rather than risk injury, for example. That's clear logical thinking: "better to stop now before I get hurt and become incapable of hunting".
And it's not just wolves, either. All kinds of animals have been shown to be capable of both learning and reasoning. Chimpanzees craft and use tools, for example, and dolphins and sea lions can and have been trained to identify and locate underwater mines. Heck, there's a gorilla that speaks in sign language with a rather broad vocabulary (1,000+ words). By D&D definition, intelligence less than 3 means you're unable to understand languages.
Not incapable, just limited within the area. Breaking the attack and retreating could also be explained that te animals don't feel like it. Instinctively knowing that it's not right (common sense).
I don't want to say that the animals are all the same. We lack the definition of what does every point of INT and WIS add to the personality and mental capacities. In this area we clash reality with rules simplification. I've studied biology and I know what are the animals able to do, but the problem is how to best represent that in the rules...
If I'm asked to build a list of creatures according to how intelligent the animal is (with regard toward ), then it would be something like this:
1 worm, leech, molluscs (simple individualistic, no interaction beyond mate/food)
2 insects (sophisticated automaton, can be social based on hormones)
3 fish, amphibian, reptile (more sophisticated, populations with established pecking order. Can be taught to recognize friendly creatures of other species)
4 most birds and perhaps "dumber" mammals like cangoroo (can be somewhat trained, but they are not easy to do so, usually requiring special equipment)
5 most mammals and some birds like corvids (can be taught to recognize commands, even more sophisticated society)
6 intelligent mammals like dolphins, small children of intelligent species
Now, let's leave these with one point of INT each... pehaps the developers feared that it would be confusing, erhaps they didn't know... What would be the difference between int 17 and 18? How the hell do we achieve that if average human INT is 10? What if a crow rolls three 6 while making a character? Can we have a bird smarter than most of your average population in the village nearby? So many what ifs...
This also neatly explains why characters with exceptional memories don't get bonus spells per day. Memorization has nothing to do with it, really. It's all about how much raw power you can leave right on the very edge of exploding without having the entire thing blow up on you at once.
Err... bonus spells for Intelligence. Intelligence is about "how well your character learns and reasons" (to quote the book) and imo includes memory. You think things through (reason) and remember it (learn). Why do you think Intelligence earns bonus spells per day? I'm curious about your rationale for it.
This also neatly explains why characters with exceptional memories don't get bonus spells per day. Memorization has nothing to do with it, really. It's all about how much raw power you can leave right on the very edge of exploding without having the entire thing blow up on you at once.Err... bonus spells for Intelligence. Intelligence is about "how well your character learns and reasons" (to quote the book) and imo includes memory. You think things through (reason) and remember it (learn). Why do you think Intelligence earns bonus spells per day? I'm curious about your rationale for it.
Intelligence earns bonus spells per day for Wizards. It does nothing for Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and Rangers, all of whom prepare spells exactly like Wizards do. If preparation were truly memorization, and Intelligence was truly the sole governor of memory (which it can't be because animals have quite good memories but have Intelligence of 1 or 2), Intelligence would help them as well.
It's based on casting stat because casting stat determines how well you're able to contain the energy of the incomplete spells. Exactly how that functions depends on the individual class.
It's based on casting stat because casting stat determines how well you're able to contain the energy of the incomplete spells. Exactly how that functions depends on the individual class.
Sounds about right:
Wizards are all about formulae, about rote application of magical principles. The smarter they are, the better they remember all those words and gestures, and the "bigger" their brain is.
Clerics, druids and rangers are all about dedication to a cause (at least when using their magic), which takes will power, resolve, and wits. And that's wisdom. So the stronger your will, the stronger you are as a vessel for divine power.
For sorcerers, paladins and bards, it's about force of personality. They coax magic itself to do what they want, whether that is done by forcing their will upon the cosmic powers or proving worthy to a deity or persuading magic to play along. The more charismatic they are, the better they are at doing their kinds of magic.
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And it's not just wolves, either. All kinds of animals have been shown to be capable of both learning and reasoning. Chimpanzees craft and use tools, for example, and dolphins and sea lions can and have been trained to identify and locate underwater mines. Heck, there's a gorilla that speaks in sign language with a rather broad vocabulary (1,000+ words). By D&D definition, intelligence less than 3 means you're unable to understand languages.
[tangent] One of my biggest pet peeves is the tidy boxes that animals and vermin get shoved into because of arbitary decision about what all monsters of one particular Type must or must not have. Vermin especially. Bugs can be trained (hell, *worms* can be taught to do mazes). Bees can use math to give each other directions and distance to food sources. Many types of bugs can do craft skills. Spiders can even be drugged or liquored up and show the signs of their impaired intellect in their crafting. Bugs can know fear. But leaving the real world out of it, since 1st edition, Drow and Duergar have been able to train giant spiders and steeders, and that sort of thing still happened in 3rd edition. Of course, for some moronic reason, Vermin were given an Int score of - and made untrainable, which only meant that the game designers had to go and make all sorts of stupid exceptions to that nonsensical rule to allow what was happening in the game already to continue happening.
Not only is the Vermin Int - thing a failure at representing how bugs work in the real world, *much* more importantly, it's a failure at representing how bugs are used in game! Grr. Argh. [/tangent]
Intelligence earns bonus spells per day for Wizards. It does nothing for Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and Rangers, all of whom prepare spells exactly like Wizards do. If preparation were truly memorization, and Intelligence was truly the sole governor of memory (which it can't be because animals have quite good memories but have Intelligence of 1 or 2), Intelligence would help them as well.
It's based on casting stat because casting stat determines how well you're able to contain the energy of the incomplete spells. Exactly how that functions depends on the individual class.
Intelligence does nothing for casters besides wizards because their not based on spell memorization. It's about faith and will for clerics (Wisdom), Charisma for sorcerors (innate personal power), etc. That's my take anyway, probably biased by playing previous editions where memory was specidically mentioned as a part of intelligence and related directly to spell acquisition and retention. The old explanation for Intelligence included IQ, memory and other factors. *shrug* It still works for me. And, yeah there were always issues with animal intelligence and other factors related to intelligence.
Intelligence does nothing for casters besides wizards because their not based on spell memorization. It's about faith and will for clerics (Wisdom), Charisma for sorcerors (innate personal power), etc. That's my take anyway, probably biased by playing previous editions where memory was specidically mentioned as a part of intelligence and related directly to spell acquisition and retention. The old explanation for Intelligence included IQ, memory and other factors. *shrug* It still works for me. And, yeah there were always issues with animal intelligence and other factors related to intelligence.Intelligence earns bonus spells per day for Wizards. It does nothing for Clerics, Druids, Paladins, and Rangers, all of whom prepare spells exactly like Wizards do. If preparation were truly memorization, and Intelligence was truly the sole governor of memory (which it can't be because animals have quite good memories but have Intelligence of 1 or 2), Intelligence would help them as well.
It's based on casting stat because casting stat determines how well you're able to contain the energy of the incomplete spells. Exactly how that functions depends on the individual class.
That's how I see it too. Wizards are LITERALLY memorizing a spell from a book. If clerics needed books they'd be a very different class.
Intelligence does nothing for casters besides wizards because their not based on spell memorization. It's about faith and will for clerics (Wisdom), Charisma for sorcerors (innate personal power), etc. That's my take anyway, probably biased by playing previous editions where memory was specidically mentioned as a part of intelligence and related directly to spell acquisition and retention. The old explanation for Intelligence included IQ, memory and other factors. *shrug* It still works for me. And, yeah there were always issues with animal intelligence and other factors related to intelligence.
I wasn't stating this as opinion. It's the official definition for preparing spells. Page 218:
Once a wizard prepares a spell, it remains in his mind as a nearly cast spell until he uses the prescribed components to complete and trigger it or until he abandons it
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Imho... there's been a lot of threads lately that question the foundations of the game. This one just happens to question the Vancian system, and the requirement of Wizards to pick spells, and memorize them.
Part of the advantage to sticking with this system - is the on-the-spot creativity of making-do with what you have. Its incredible to watch players creatively use their spells.
We've gotten away from that part of the game as a culture... unless you're still dipping back into 1e. Nowadays, its pretty much wysiwyg spell use, and the world has become a very defined machine with much of the mystery and flexibilty absent from our lives.
No value judgment. I do enjoy the accuracy with which my v.3.5/Pathfinder RPG games are played. Its a very sophisticated system, and I adore it for that reason.
However, if you want to let Wizards and such cast spontaneously.... let them. Its your world. You need not defend, nor explain your reasons to anyone. You are the GM.
And, here's my confession. Back when I was in college, there were 9-14 folks who would knock on my door at odd hours wanting to play AD&D. And while I never turned them away, part of the draw to playing in my games is that I made it fun and easy for them. Many didn't care for the "stress" of picking spells.... e.g. we wanted to get playing within 10 minutes..... So, I hand waived this requirement several times, and it had little actual effect on the game.
The idea to pick spells is more true to the mileau that is the world's oldest rpg. Nowadays, this is very important to me. I try to run a "classic" game with a lot of true fantasy tropes. However, if I decided to hand-waive picking spells, I would not look back one bit, nor feel that I had slighted anything but tradition. I don't do this, but see why someone would. Simply put, its easier, and you get a better match between the current game challenge, and the appropriate spell to overcome it.
For example, in classic play, hell hounds must be dealt with by the blade since the wizard did not select "dismissal". This is a feature, not a flaw.
In modern play, some hell hounds may be instantly dismissed, and the wizard congratulated, since the wizard has "dismissal" or quickly decides to cast it, like a sorcerer is designed to. Again, this would be a feature of a GM's decision to have wizards behave like sorcerers, something we didn't have back-in-the-day.
Simply put: as DMs, we had already invented "Sorcerers" with spontaneous casting long, long before they appeared in the PHB. Bottom line—have fun. And, if anyone gives you crap about it just tell 'em Pax, one of the biggest champions of traditionalism in dnd said this was okay.
P.s. Thanks for reading what had become this long essay on the topic.
—Pax Veritas
Simply put: as DMs, we had already invented "Sorcerers" with spontaneous casting long, long before they appeared in the PHB. Bottom line—have fun. And, if anyone gives you crap about it just tell 'em Pax, one of the biggest champions of traditionalism in dnd said this was okay.
Yes, I played in a 2E campaign where we did this, too. The players liked it, and we always ended up getting tromped by the bad guys anyways, so it couldn't have been overpowered. :-)