RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ok, continuing from this post, since we're getting more into campaign setting fantasy economics.
Who says that these wizards/sorcerers aren't the scriveners/scribers guild? Why wouldn't that guild be the ones controlling the supply of obviously skilled and effective means of production? They might get uppity if a PC wizard starts horning in on their territory, but they're probably the ones teaching their members how to do this sort of thing.My only concern, in game 'reality' is what would happen to the scriveners and scribers guild? Would they lean on the int 10 guy to join the guild? Would they engage in magical sabotage? (guy with wand of erase and UMD for printing errors, illusionary script errata?) or just plain sabotage (fire, embargos on paper, collusion with other guilds "Today they're Wizkos, tomorrow they'll be using teleportation circles to replace the shipping guilds! Are you with me, my brothers!")?
Having just re-read Absalom, I'd picture not so much the 'peseant taking a level of wizard' as the apprentices and journeymen of the wizard schools taking a job to pay tuition. (ironically, mimicking the student working nights at Kinkos.) At least since it's an exact copy, cheating wouldn't be an issue. "You scored a 100% on your paper Mr. Potter. Now if you would explain to the class why your handwriting is the same as Miss Graingers..." :-)
In Golarion, how common is low level magic? What impact would it have on the guilds? \
Would a lamp lighter's guild be threatened by a band of int 10 mages/cha 10 sorcerers with mage hand (to lift the oil up to fill the lamp, then the wick to light it),and prestidigitation (for cleaning the lamp of soot)
Would a scribners/scrivners guild be threatened by the above example?
Does the king have a food taster or a guy with detect poison?
Do craft guilds feel threatened by mending? Or by all those bards summoning instruments rather than buying them?
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Biggest society-changers IMO would be;
Create Water - say good bye to the 'Water Lords of Thuvia' or whatever, although it can no longer be stored, at least. Still, a 1st level Cleric or Druid (or, most likely of all, Adept) can create 1200 gallons / hour, which should be enough to resupply the thirstiest caravan.
Mending - say good bye to shoe repair, seamstresses, etc. A ton of work in Ye Olde Days was repairing stuff for re-use that we would just throw out.
Purify Food & Drink - salt prices would plunge (salt being the preferred spice to disguise the taste of food that's gone 'off'), and famine would be significantly reduced, as food could remain edible for days after spoilage (and spoilage could be prevented from spreading to adjacent food, saving the whole batch from that one bad apple).
Acid Splash - disappears at the end of 1 round now. Thanks Jason! No more infinite free acid.
Ray of Frost - low-tech free infinite refrigeration and ice creation. Caesar used to have his Legions schlep up into the alps to get snow and ice to make slushies. In Absalom, they just have an apprentice sit in the basement next to a tub of water, casting Ray of Frost. Combined with Purify Food & Drink, food storage and availability, again, is radically re-defined.
Mage Hand - I'm sure there are a hundred jobs were having a hand that can go 30 ft. away from you (into potential deadly or hostile environments, or just tiny spaces you can't fit) would be 'handy.' Jobs that require greater strength could use Rube Goldberg devices of some sort as force-multipliers. (And now, laddie, hold the adamantine bar steady in yer Mage Hand, ah'm gonna release the catch that brings the hammer down, and then Sven here will winch it back up. It's slow workin' with adamantine, but we canna go in the forge-room itself, it's too hot for any but a Salamander ta take, an' I dunna trust them with forge-work, jest cleanin' up.)
Message - cursed with a range useful to an adventurer, but not significantly disruptive to a game-setting, this is perfect. Unless you have a message-capable crier on every street corner, able to rely messages across the city in a matter of rounds, it's not much good for that sort of thing. On the other hand, it's ideal for a courtier who relays messages back and forth between aristocrats at social functions (such as Chelaxian operas, or parties in honor to one of their own) discreetly, perhaps aristocrats who don't wish to be seen directly speaking to each other, or have a sudden discreet message to send across the chamber without disrupting the festivities.
"Demicount Morino, your hand is on the bottom of the Paralictors niece. He tortures people to death for a living. Just thought you should know."
Some sort of cheap magic item that boosted the range of message to Long, could allow for a wealthy town to have minarets (such as those used by Muzzein callers) with 1st level Sorcerers and Wizards manning them to relay messages across the city in a matter of moments, to gain mercantile advantage when new product arrives at the docks, for instance. The guards would be able to use this to shut the city gates upon order from the palace in less than a minute, which could be dreadfully inconvenient to a party of boorish adventurers weighted down with items of uncertain provenance who feel an urgent need to take a vacation in the countryside...
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Biggest society-changers IMO would be;
Create Water - say good bye to the 'Water Lords of Thuvia' or whatever, although it can no longer be stored, at least. Still, a 1st level Cleric or Druid (or, most likely of all, Adept) can create 1200 gallons / hour, which should be enough to resupply the thirstiest caravan.
This would really reinforce the power of the theocracy in the desert kingdoms. "All hail (insert deity), bringer of life giving water!" Plus, it makes a settlement sustainable in places that are not at an oasis or river, etc. Well as long as you keep the priests happy.
Does the king have a food taster or a guy with detect poison?
Is your detect poison powerful enough to pierce the magic aura?
Do craft guilds feel threatened by mending? Or by all those bards summoning instruments rather than buying them?
They're eradicated by it! I mean, what kind of total idiot would waste coppers on craftsmen if they can spend gold on magicians? ;-P
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Not only that, but would a spellcaster (i.e. a skilled worker) want to spend his days casting the same cantrip repeatedly (4800 castings in an 8 hour day)? Just because it can be done doesn't mean it will be. I know that if I was a spellcaster, I wouldn't want to spend my day in monotonous casting of the same cantrip all day long. I can see a certain amount of this for wizard schools and acadamies of having the apprentices cast lots of cantrips around the school to save money, but I don't think guilds would be hurting just because they got less business from wizard schools.
for that matter, using a cost of 5 gp per casting, that gets expensive. Sure you can create a magic item that does it, but that's at least 900 gp, which is a lot. Take a maigc auto cleaning street lamp - you can buy that for 900 per lamp, or pay some guys a few copper per day to cover the whole city. Even if you needed 50 guys at 5 cp per day, that's 2.5 gp per day total for the whole city.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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KaeYos:
Depends, how long do you let your meal sit in the guy's belly to see if the poison has an onset time.
Also, this injects supply and demand into the economy. If the lamp lighter is paid (say) 1 SP a street and it takes a minute to do each lamp, lets use simple math, 10 streets, 10 lamps per street, 100 SP, 100 minute, assuming extingusing them with the lamp (instead of saying they burn out) add another 50 minutes. So one man can get the hypothetical city lit in about 2 hours for 10 GP. Even if we say one CP, rather than SP, it's now 1 GP for two hours work.
Enter Wally Wizard. He's looking for some work, and knows his 'clip' won't go dry. He goes to the city and says, "I can clean, fill, and light a lamp in 20 seconds, half a minute if the glass is cracked. I'm working my way through wizard school, so I'll need to charge you 15 GP a night (2 GP if we're using coppers)."
Round 1 Cast prestidigitation, to clean.
Round 2, mage hand up the flask of oil, insert.
Round 3, mage hand up wick.
Round 4, cast mending if you have cracked glass
So the city pays a little more, gets their city lit in less than an hour (and gets any cracked glass fixed) pays a little more, and Wally gets 105 GP a week (or 14 depending on your economy)
Likewise, if it's Sammy Sorcerer, he has less overhead. He can match the guild and still come out ahead.
Same thing for Mending. The 'listed' price is 5 GP. Why shouldn't Sammy Sorcerer charge 5cp, or a sliding scale? a nobleman's outfit is 100 GP. Which is he going to prefer? To have to have it cleaned/repaired by a seamstress taking days or spend 10 GP and have it done 'while you wait'? For that matter...
- Lose a day's income plus looking around dockside for a new net? or spend the 5 GP to have your 4 GP net fixed in 6 seconds
- fix broken locks on windows for 5 GP, or buy a new on for 20GP plus?
- Mining camp is likely to keep a sorcerer handy for when those 3 GP picks break (and again, cost time as well as replacement costs)
- Same camp, lantern gets broke in a cave-in? Well just pay 5 GP to have that 12 GP lantern fixed.
- silk rope break? 5 gp or 10 gp?
- Loaded that idol from monkey island into the cart and the axel broke? Well...
- getting ready to head out to see and that spyglass is cracked? Well get it fixed for 1/20th of the cost.
Joel:
How much does a factory worker get paid to work on an assembly line?
Or for that matter, flipping burgers for 8 hours at McDonalds. Even if Larry Gardener gets paid a measily 1 CP a page, working at Wiskos, copying a 100 page book takes him 10 minutes, and gets him 1 GP. (as an aside, if I was Larry, I'd spend skill points in autohypnosis, photographic memory can be your friend) Heck to use the Academy listed in Absalom, copying such books might be part of their work tuition program.
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Not only that, but would a spellcaster (i.e. a skilled worker) want to spend his days casting the same cantrip repeatedly (4800 castings in an 8 hour day)?
You mean like an assembly line, putting 4800 heads on a doll all day long, while the worker next to you put on the left arm, and his buddy puts on the right arm?
Apprentice work.
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KaeYos:
Also, this injects supply and demand into the economy. If the lamp lighter is paid (say) 1 SP a street and it takes a minute to do each lamp, lets use simple math, 10 streets, 10 lamps per street, 100 SP, 100 minute, assuming extingusing them with the lamp (instead of saying they burn out) add another 50 minutes. So one man can get the hypothetical city lit in about 2 hours for 10 GP. Even if we say one CP, rather than SP, it's now 1 GP for two hours work.Enter Wally Wizard. He's looking for some work, and knows his 'clip' won't go dry. He goes to the city and says, "I can clean, fill, and light a lamp in 20 seconds, half a minute if the glass is cracked. I'm working my way through wizard school, so I'll need to charge you 15 GP a night (2 GP if we're using coppers)."
Round 1 Cast prestidigitation, to clean.
Round 2, mage hand up the flask of oil, insert.
Round 3, mage hand up wick.
Round 4, cast mending if you have cracked glassSo the city pays a little more, gets their city lit in less than an hour (and gets any cracked glass fixed) pays a little more, and Wally gets 105 GP a week (or 14 depending on your economy)
Wally then promptly runs afoul of the local thieve's guild protection services, whom the lamplighter's guild has been paying for years past, who asks Wally for their cut and gets turned down since Wally thinks that since he's a wizard he can scare them off. The guild waylay poor Wally when he isn't looking and get the better of him since he's merely an apprentice and his dancing lights and acid splash aren't enough to impress them and they cut his throat and dump his body into the sewers.
Ah well, maybe Wally shouldn't cut into the business of the everyman and stick to wizarding. The wizarding guild is alarmed at this crime, and are placated by the town guards who say they are doing everything they can to solve the case. Meanwhile the guards are paid their cut, a stooge is falsely accused of the crime and executed (some young cutpurse who angered the wrong guildmaster). A new apprentice is found for the wizard school (courtesy of the thieve's guild, a promising bright lad who remembers who helped him), and the lamplighters are back on the streets lighting up the city, and the city continues on.
Sorry, just had a thought that yes the magic folks could cut into some of the businesses, but sometimes it might not always work out.
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Wally then promptly runs afoul of the local thieve's guild protection services, whom the lamplighter's guild has been paying for years past,
That's not a solution, 'though, since, who is more likely to have valuable services to offer the thieves guild, a lamplighter or an apprentice sorcerer? If the *mages guild* has this contract in place, and they are *much* better situated to do so, it's going to be the mundane lamplighters who are set on fire as an example...
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Wally then promptly runs afoul of the local thieve's guild protection services, whom the lamplighter's guild has been paying for years past,That's not a solution, 'though, since, who is more likely to have valuable services to offer the thieves guild, a lamplighter or an apprentice sorcerer? If the *mages guild* has this contract in place, and they are *much* better situated to do so, it's going to be the mundane lamplighters who are set on fire as an example...
I'm going with the scenario at hand, Wally the Wizard, who's putting himself through wizard school. Unless there's a plethora of wizards who are looking for all the money they can get, I really think the lamplighters contract is too small of an income for the wizard's guild. Now, what they should get into is rental fees for everburning torches, sure they can sell them but I think for long term rental (with rights to revoke) is where the money will come from for both the municipal jurisdictions and also for many businesses, nobles, etc. Forget lighting the dang lamps nightly, you lease everburning torches out to the city. They don't pay, well, oh my, someone either stole the torches or there's some dastardly vigilant with too many dispel magics runnings. Heck, if the mundanes don't understand too much of magic, say that the everburning torches run out at a certain point and you have to 'replace' or 'maintain' them. Of course, there's always the 'rogue' mage who'll sell torches, those must be taken care of somehow... I'm sure the guild can figure it out.
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I'm going with the scenario at hand,
My point is, the question at hand is the possible impact of the cantrips on the lamplighters guild (etc.). You dragged the theives guild into it. I could trump that and drag the queen into it, and say that she's ordained that the city must be lit by magic, to prevent the risk of fire. You could trump that and say that the god of the land has forbidden the use of magic in the country. I could trump that by whacking you with the core rulebook for Infinityd6 nonlethal damage.
None of that really deals with the core question. It's just a never ending escalation of irrelevance. The Thieves Guild are gonna do whatever the Thieves Guild are gonna do, and it has zero bearing on the question of whether or not At Will Cantrips are going to impact the settings economy, and, *since this is a fantasy game,* the presence of magic *should* have some sort of effect on the setting, or else it becomes like the Marvel Comics universe, where people on the street are driving internal-combution vehicles that burn fossile fuels, while SHIELD has flying aircraft carriers and Reed, Tony, Von Doom, Forge, the Mad Thinker, the Fixer, etc. can create completely safe infinite zero-point energy power generators that fit comfortably into a shoe or the hilt of someone's energy sword or the handgrip of their 'photonic shield.'
The setting has magic in it. It's a valid line of speculation to ponder how the presence of magic will change things.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Not only that, but would a spellcaster (i.e. a skilled worker) want to spend his days casting the same cantrip repeatedly (4800 castings in an 8 hour day)?You mean like an assembly line, putting 4800 heads on a doll all day long, while the worker next to you put on the left arm, and his buddy puts on the right arm?
Apprentice work.
Yes, just like assembly line work. However, I don't see even an apprentice wizard doing that kind of work - that's beneath them since they can do wondrous things with magic (aside for doing the grudge work for their masters/school when they're apprentices). I guess I don't see them doing that as a career, and thus don't see that as an issue. Once the spellcaster can cast 1st level spells, they have even less reason to do work for cantrips, especially in a drudgerous way 4800 times per day. If your campaign world uses different assumptions, then it may be an issue, but in mine, it's not.
Wally then promptly runs afoul of the local thieve's guild protection services, whom the lamplighter's guild has been paying for years past,That's not a solution, 'though, since, who is more likely to have valuable services to offer the thieves guild, a lamplighter or an apprentice sorcerer? If the *mages guild* has this contract in place, and they are *much* better situated to do so, it's going to be the mundane lamplighters who are set on fire as an example...
I guess it would depend on who's paying for protection. If Wally refused to pay, then they'd make an example out of him first. Nothing harmful, just a couple of gorillas to instruct him on the error of his ways. If he refuses again, well then they'd get nasty.
Also if there was a mages guild, my guess would be that either; A, they'd see such work as being beneath them. or B, They'd have an agreement with the other guilds to stop this kind of thing.
BTW salt was used as a preservative, and still is. Pepper on the other hand was used to disguise the taste of meat that was going bad.
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Once the spellcaster can cast 1st level spells, they have even less reason to do work for cantrips, especially in a drudgerous way 4800 times per day. If your campaign world uses different assumptions, then it may be an issue, but in mine, it's not.
On the other hand, you need all of an Intelligence 10 to cast cantrips, and I bet there are hundreds, if not thousands, of lazy farmboys of average intelligence who would have no problem learning their ONE spell and going to work on the magic assembly line if it meant not being knee-deep in pig poop 14 hours a day, every day, until they die.
It just takes one entrepreneurial wizard willing to teach one cantrip to a hundred kids to kick off a magitech revolution. The 50 GP cost of mending is an entirely wizard-created cost, as the spell has no material components. Set up shop with half a dozen one-cantrip wonders and charge 1 SP to cast mending and you will have folks lined up around the block. They'll be BEGGING to give you their coin.
Once the spellcaster can cast 1st level spells, they have even less reason to do work for cantrips, especially in a drudgerous way 4800 times per day. If your campaign world uses different assumptions, then it may be an issue, but in mine, it's not.On the other hand, you need all of an Intelligence 10 to cast cantrips, and I bet there are hundreds, if not thousands, of lazy farmboys of average intelligence who would have no problem learning their ONE spell and going to work on the magic assembly line if it meant not being knee-deep in pig poop 14 hours a day, every day, until they die.
It just takes one entrepreneurial wizard willing to teach one cantrip to a hundred kids to kick off a magitech revolution. The 50 GP cost of mending is an entirely wizard-created cost, as the spell has no material components. Set up shop with half a dozen one-cantrip wonders and charge 1 SP to cast mending and you will have folks lined up around the block. They'll be BEGGING to give you their coin.
That was my original point [u]exactly.[/u] We're not talking about wizards with the potential to cast Wish eventually. We're talking about training INT 10/CHA 10 wizard/sorcerers so that they can infinitely produce the workings of a cantrip. This is a particularly valuable target group, because they're really not going to be nearly as threatening as even someone who can learn first or second level magics - they're really more tradesmen. CHA 10 Sorcerers are even better, because they might not even know ray of frost or acid splash, so they can't go around killing people with their magic - at best, they can photocopy manuscripts in 1/100th the time of a cloistered monastic, or they can clean a room in 1/10th the time of a maid.
The problem a lot of people have with D&D is that they want the world to look like medieval Europe, but have a small percentage of the population running around on flying carpets and battling dragons. But the truth is, introducing magic into a setting (especially infinite magic, as Pathfinder has done) will, by necessity, change the way that world looks. This is one of the things that's wonderful about the world of Eberron - it's the closest I've seen to a world that accepts that magic is part of the world, and looks at what kind of ramifications it might have.
The truth is that Pathfinder assumes that illiteracy is pretty much non-existent. Barbarians and commoners can read. If they can read, then books are plentiful and cheap, because that's the only reason literacy spread in our world. If they're cheap, then there must be an easy means of production. Amanuensis from the SC is a ludicrously easy means of production, certainly faster and better than a printing press, and it helps explain the literacy of the world and the constant presence of libraries and books that settings take for granted.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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DoSakura,
Actually, I could see the printing press developing in a magic influenced setting more than the other way around.
"Stupid Wizkos won't print my manifesto of the Glory of Gearcraft. Surely I can invent something so I don't have to go to the clerics for cure carpal tunnel and print many copies..."
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Wally then promptly runs afoul of the local thieve's guild protection services, whom the lamplighter's guild has been paying for years past, who asks Wally for their cut and gets turned down since Wally thinks that since he's a wizard he can scare them off. The guild waylay poor Wally when he isn't looking and get the better of him since he's merely an apprentice and his dancing lights and acid splash aren't enough to impress them and they cut his throat and dump his body into the sewers.
Just highlighting this since there's a flaw in tome of secrets that you have stiff joints that give you a 5% ASF and this could be a way to work that into a character concept.
"Hey look it's Wally Wizard who's hand we broke all those years ago! Where you been Wally!"
*stilled quickened fireball, maximized stilled fireball, stilled animate dead*
"Adventuring and gaining metamagic feats, my skeletal friends. Bwahahahahaha!"
BTW salt was used as a preservative, and still is. Pepper on the other hand was used to disguise the taste of meat that was going bad.
FWIW, humans in the middle ages had no more resistance against food poisoning as humans today do, so the idea that spoiled food was regularly eaten is kinda . . . incorrect.
Plus, they didn't have wonderful modern medical technology, so they made doubly sure they didn't get food poisoning. An example? They would boil meat, and then roast it.
Besides, there were plenty of animals running around. Chickens don't really require too much work if you allow them to forage for their own food, and why would you eat spoiled chicken when there's a fresh one running around your doorstep?
The problem with applying economics to a made-up world is that one change can and does affect many other pieces.
If sorcerers suddenly used magic to light streets, the street lighters guild would likely do what guilds and unions do today - strike, and then beat up the "scab" laborers. Sorcerers might have magic, but the union thugs have truncheons that get swung once per round instead of 6x/day.
But, let's say sorcerers are competing with the wages of the lamp lighter. A lamplighter will realize he can't make as much money as the sorcerer (due to overhead costs), and therefore goes into another line of work. Suddenly, lamplighters are in short supply, since sorcerers can only perform the cantrip x times per day, and wages increase as supply falls.
Similarly, if a farmboy goes off the farm to pursue the life of a lamplighting sorcerer, there will be fewer farmers, meaning less food . . . meaning prices go up, and the farmboy who got put out of a job by a lamplighter who could perform the job more efficiently (instead of x times per day) comes back to farming to higher wages. Until the gnomes come up with a threshing machine that puts him out of work again.
There's a reason why the game is called "Dungeons and Dragons" instead of "Derivatives and Inflation." Or, "Pathfinder" instead of "Moneylender."
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There's a reason why the game is called "Dungeons and Dragons" instead of "Derivatives and Inflation." Or, "Pathfinder" instead of "Moneylender."
The folks in the chat could tell you all about my plans for a Spell Component Tycoon game. I probably won't be using the Home Invasion-based ruleset of the standard OGL, but the mad, beautiful settings of D&D are ripe for examining the social challenges of dealing with bat farmers, tiny foci sculptors, and vendors of nilbog urine while trying to avoid having the high-level wizard who was unhappy when the 250 GP of rubies he bought were not of a high-enough quality for the spell he was casting from casting fireball on your warehouse, or coping with the noble lady who bought the "cursed" dress of scintillating colors (makes the pretty color patterns, but doesn't daze or conceal; one of those happy accidents that sometimes occur when making magic items) and then tells all her friends that you're an amazing magical tailor.
The folks in the chat could tell you all about my plans for a Spell Component Tycoon game. I probably won't be using the Home Invasion-based ruleset of the standard OGL . . . .
Interesting. And also brings up another point that's been bouncing around in my head for some time.
Each rule set, whether it be for an RPG, board game, card game, whatever, is designed to mimic some real process in an abstract way.
Monopoly is great, but isn't quite the same as Aquire. But we wouldn't want those rulesets to be used for Pathfinder (although dropping a hotel on a dragon could be interesting).
The Catan games are great in reflecting resource management, but for mass battles it's probably better to use Warhammer.
I look at the Pathfinder/DnD rules as a snapshot where all the economic factors are currently in balance for whatever reason. I don't need to know why the price of a 1st level spell is 100gp, only that it is and there's probably a good reason for it. As the gamemaster, I can adjust such prices when there is a need for it (like if I goofed and gave the characters too much money in the last treasure chest). Do I need the PCs to go north? Well, it just so happens that there's rumors of a dragon terrorizing the countryside. Do I need to divest the characters of some ill-gotten gains? Boy, that fire that took out the Motel 6 Inn has caused prices to go up in all the other inns in the city.
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Each rule set, whether it be for an RPG, board game, card game, whatever, is designed to mimic some real process in an abstract way.
The mantra in the indie scene is "Rules matter". Playing a Pathfinder adventure path using PFRPG will produce a different experience than using GURPS. The rules of a game determine what kind of story you can tell with that game - it's a sort of hobby-time Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. You'll never get a romance game out of the PFRPG rules - at best, you can ignore them to get your romance.
I don't need to know why the price of a 1st level spell is 100gp, only that it is and there's probably a good reason for it.
Game balance. Pretty much the sole reason. :D
KaeYos:
Depends, how long do you let your meal sit in the guy's belly to see if the poison has an onset time.
So, Moris, you say your imperfect method is better than mine? Because I don't claim mine is better, or even sufficient. I just say yours isn't :P
In other words: The best thing is to cover all angles.
Enter Wally Wizard. He's looking for some work, and knows his 'clip' won't go dry. He goes to the city and says, "I can clean, fill, and light a lamp in 20 seconds, half a minute if the glass is cracked. I'm working my way through wizard school, so I'll need to charge you 15 GP a night (2 GP if we're using coppers)."
I'll laugh him out of my office. What do I care about how fast those people are? The other guys are cheaper.
The lowest bidder gets the public contract.
And I can hire dozens of lamp lighters to do it all in the same time. There are hundreds of people out there who desperately want to eat.
Why would I pay some upstart Gandalf-wannabe more than I must? To provide better illumination for peasants?
And, from the view of said Gandalf-wannabe: Why would I waste my resources on this peasant labour? My talents are wasted. I can earn more than that with selling scrolls or potions I make. In a comfortable room where no robbers might want to hit me over the head.
Same thing for Mending. The 'listed' price is 5 GP. Why shouldn't Sammy Sorcerer charge 5cp, or a sliding scale?
Why should he? You keep saying how great he is. Why should he sell himself way below price?
a nobleman's outfit is 100 GP. Which is he going to prefer? To have to have it cleaned/repaired by a seamstress taking days or spend 10 GP and have it done 'while you wait'? For that matter...
I guess he will prefer either an accomplished, famous wizard (who charges more than coppers), or a prestigious tailor.
Hire some cheapskate apprentice? No way. You'd never hear the end of it! Whenever the rich and the noble gather to gossip, they will find a bound and gagged nobleman, ready for the gossipy coup-de-grâce.
"Look, the beggar noble, can only afford cheap charlatans. No respect for the Good Old Crafts.
Not only that, but would a spellcaster (i.e. a skilled worker) want to spend his days casting the same cantrip repeatedly (4800 castings in an 8 hour day)?You mean like an assembly line, putting 4800 heads on a doll all day long, while the worker next to you put on the left arm, and his buddy puts on the right arm?
Apprentice work.
Apprentice-never-becoming-a-full-blown-wizard-because-his-brains-will-turn- to-mush work.
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Apprentice-never-becoming-a-full-blown-wizard-because-his-brains-will-turn- to-mush work.
GOOD. Means he won't go learning fireball and blowing up my factory. Maybe we can send kids to some sort of building, where they learn to go from one place to another at the sound of a bell, learn to follow orders from an arbitrary and shifting panel of superiors, fill out paperwork, and practice repetitive tasks all day. We can call it Schul or Skool or something, and have an entire generation prepared to learn their one cantrip, get their three shillings a day, and keep their mouths shut instead of asking why they can't be wizards, too.
I don't need to know why the price of a 1st level spell is 100gp, only that it is and there's probably a good reason for it.Game balance. Pretty much the sole reason. :D
Well, yes. I was thinking more along the lines of "how the world works and relates to any particular aspect."
Sheesh, gamers . . . . :)
Why should he? You keep saying how great he is. Why should he sell himself way below price?
Because Gandalf isn't applying for the job. It's Sven Erzkeny from one of the River Kingdoms, who hasn't two clipped groats to his name. He's willing to work for next to nothing just so he can put a square meal on the table for his family.
People undersell and underbid all the time. I think it's dismissive of a fair point to present that no one will do this.
That said, I really like the point that this is a D&D economy and it's that way because it works. Yes, it is fun to speculate about economic changes due to magic. Yes there are some cool and interesting ideas here. I like the thread; I just don't think I'll worry too much about the economics of lighting in my Pathfinder game.
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Well, yes. I was thinking more along the lines of "how the world works and relates to any particular aspect."
I've always assumed the reason was "wizards are curmudgeonly old bastards and don't want a line around the block asking them if they could use some of their phenomenal arcane power to do something they perceive to be trivial or beneath them, so they charge exorbitant fees to keep the hoi polloi and the casually curious away."
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Very interesting topic. Although several excellent points have been made, I'd like to bring another variable into this equation: are there sufficient wizards, sorcerers, and clerics, even of the apprentice level, to sustain mass production/large scale services?
One of the assumptions I believe I see in this thread (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that anyone with the appropriate stat of 10 and a general willingness to be the appropriate class can enter one of these classes. Although this works fine for PC's (and it's part of the class openness started by 3E), does this really bear out in the logic of the campaign world? Would wizard's guilds bother to train 10 INT apprentices, or wait for a more intelligent applicant who can better contribute to the guild? Is everyone who is part of a church a fully classed cleric, or are many of them simply experts with ranks in Knowledge: Religion, Diplomacy, and Perform: Oratory?
OK, I can see 10 Charisma sorcerers. It's supposed to be random chance of birth or ancestry, right?
I believe Paizo may have address this way back the Curse of the Crimson Throne adventure path as well:
Food for thought.
If sorcerers suddenly used magic to light streets, the street lighters guild would likely do what guilds and unions do today - strike, and then beat up the "scab" laborers. Sorcerers might have magic, but the union thugs have truncheons that get swung once per round instead of 6x/day.
But, let's say sorcerers are competing with the wages of the lamp lighter. A lamplighter will realize he can't make as much money as the sorcerer (due to overhead costs), and therefore goes into another line of work. Suddenly, lamplighters are in short supply, since sorcerers can only perform the cantrip x times per day, and wages increase as supply falls.
Sorcerers and wizards don't have a finite number of cantrips per day. They can cast them at will in Pathfinder. That's the whole point of the discussion.
Of course, when the caster casts light the second time, the first one goes out, so lamplighters aren't really a viable option, unless you have a ton of low level casters.
Very interesting topic. Although several excellent points have been made, I'd like to bring another variable into this equation: are there sufficient wizards, sorcerers, and clerics, even of the apprentice level, to sustain mass production/large scale services?
One of the assumptions I believe I see in this thread (please correct me if I'm wrong) is that anyone with the appropriate stat of 10 and a general willingness to be the appropriate class can enter one of these classes. Although this works fine for PC's (and it's part of the class openness started by 3E), does this really bear out in the logic of the campaign world? Would wizard's guilds bother to train 10 INT apprentices, or wait for a more intelligent applicant who can better contribute to the guild? Is everyone who is part of a church a fully classed cleric, or are many of them simply experts with ranks in Knowledge: Religion, Diplomacy, and Perform: Oratory?
OK, I can see 10 Charisma sorcerers. It's supposed to be random chance of birth or ancestry, right?
But I'm not assuming that Wizard Guilds are training them. Actually, I'm not assuming Wizard Guilds, really, because there probably shouldn't be enough capable, high INT people around to create a functional Wizard Guild in all but the largest cities.
However, one wizard could very easily create a new magical scriber's guild, or hire out his training services to a scriber's guild, to train all these people. Why wouldn't someone train them, if it was a feasible and efficient means of production? We don't need "Wizards Guilds" who are concerned with traveling the Ethereal plane and mastering the secrets of the cosmos. All we need is someone teaching people a trade that happens to be functional and also a simple kind of magic. Teach someone a trade, and he can do a job. He can do it faster, more accurately, and (likely) cheaper than getting cloistered monks or scribers to copy page after page, taking weeks or months on end to painstakingly reproduce a work.
Historically, monks would spend all day, every day, for years recreating holy texts so that they could be distributed. Literacy was limited to the wealthiest people, who could afford to pay the high prices that such tomes cost. In modern times, in industrialized nations, they're printed on massive printing presses. They're extraordinarily cheap, allowing you to purchase books several hundred pages long for around $15, and literacy is more or less common.
In Pathfinder, literacy is universal. Barbarians are literate. Amanuensis, mending, light, prestidigitation - they're all infinitely castable by even a level 1 arcanist. Why wouldn't this be capitalized on?
Everyone's acting like there'd be scribers guilds doing it the old way, hand writing and copying everything with mundane means, and then someone comes along and tries to do this. That's not how it'd work. Magic's been around for centuries. Elves have been master wizards for millennia. This is the sort of thing that would just naturally grow up in that sort of world. It's not something that'd suddenly happen now, in Riddleport. It'd already be an accepted practice dating back for ages. It's another trade, but one that relies, in part, on magic. Certainly, these 1st level, INT/CHA 10 casters would have ranks in Profession: scribe. They'd need it to draft new legal documents or books. You'd need Craft: Painting or Illustration to provide illuminations to manuscripts. These would be the same people casting Amanuensis to duplicate books for ready access by the massively literate populous.
Of course, when the caster casts light the second time, the first one goes out, so lamplighters aren't really a viable option, unless you have a ton of low level casters.
Which is why, over the long haul, it's much more cost efficient to use everburning torches. After all, they'll still be going 100 years from now. Heck, your city will be lit a 1000 years from now. But, it's a large up front cost, which means it may or may not happen.
Sorcerers and wizards don't have a finite number of cantrips per day. They can cast them at will in Pathfinder. That's the whole point of the discussion.
Fair enough.
But the basic economic principles will still apply. Too many people in a profession means that the wage drops. Why are wait staff paid so low? Because anyone can do the job (I'm not talking about tips, I'm talking about picking up a plate and bringing it to a customer).
So, those with higher overhead (the lamplighters) go off to find another profession. Maybe it's candlemaking. After all, if there's a lot of lamplighters around, candles might be a growth industry. Now the lamplighters have the corner on pre-lit candles, thus putting sorcerous lamplighters out of business.
Or the lamplighters go back to the farm because now all the farmboys have learned a cantrip and left the farm for the exciting life in the big city, leading to a shortage of farm labor, and therefore food.
So, you have a choice of running Rise of the Runelords and worrying about how many people are lighting lamps in Magnimar and what that does to the price of wheat in Sandpoint, or you just say "Not Important" (TM) and play the game.
Personally, I love economics, but there's no way I'm going to run an RPG with the primary driver of the world be the laws of supply and demand. Players would generally be bored, because who cares that the PCs could start up a Goblin Extermination Corporation and charge Sandpoint a fee to eliminate all the goblins, while another player starts up the Goblin Rescue Agency to sell services to the goblins that allow them to circumvent the GEC, meanwhile navigating the tax laws that Mayor Needsmoney set up to fund his own rise to power?
Perhaps the neater way to look at it is this: The world, as presented, has already worked out the economic realities of sorcerous lamplighters. The sorcerers decided long ago that it wasn't worth their time to light street lamps when there were so many cooler things to do with that power. Whatever the reason (maybe sorcerers/wizards aren't as plentiful as would be needed to provide a city with magical lamplighting; maybe the lamplighters' guild already took care of the first sorcerer to come up with that idea, and the rest of the sorcerers realized it was in their best interest (and continued health) to look elsewhere for their employment), the world is presented as it IS.
Now, it's up to the PCs to make their mark.
In Golarion, how common is low level magic? What impact would it have on the guilds? \
Would a lamp lighter's guild be threatened by a band of int 10 mages/cha 10 sorcerers with mage hand (to lift the oil up to fill the lamp, then the wick to light it),and prestidigitation (for cleaning the lamp of soot)
Would a scribners/scrivners guild be threatened by the above example?
Does the...
More bouncing in my head . . . .
Some of this is seems to be based on the idea that people can "choose" their class. Why would anyone choose commoner over wizard (other than as a role playing exercise)? Or that people "choose" to use their highest stat as their professional stat. Maybe a CHA 10 character wants to be a baker (WIS 9) instead of a sorcerer. Maybe the fighter wants to have more skill points and have a higher INT than strength.
The commoner class exists because it's common. The vast majority of civilized population is common. No special abilities, no magical powers, no realistic chance of slaying a dragon. Sure, some might make a mean apple pie, but it's still a mundane (perhaps masterwork) pie.
Pathfinder is a storytelling game, which means the story comes first.
The lamplighters guild would only be threatened if there was some story advancement. Does one of the PCs have a brother who works as a lamplighter and now has his job threatened because some necromancer started hiring out the services of his lamplighting skeleton crew?
The king needs a food taster if the story requires it. If the story is made better by a taster with an item to detect poison, 'poof' the taster has a magical poison detecting amulet. Or, if the story requires that the king die by poisoned wine, the taster took a sick day that evening.
Craft guilds may employ magicians to do some mending, but is it really "good as new"? Would nobles buy a magically crafted robe, or would they buy one that they knew had hundreds of hours of hand-crafting invested into its creation? Would a bard feel the deep passion for music if he were using a summoned lute instead of the instrument his father had passed down from his grandfather, who recorded the Ballad of Little Joe upon hearing the tears of Little Joe's elven bride hit the floor of the ice cavern where Little Joe died?
If we accept the snapshot of Golarion as presented in the books, we could extrapolate what effect common low level magic would have on society. But, would humans be around to see it? The Renaissance took 200 years to spread from Italy to England. The Industrial Revolution has come and gone, but there are still artisans who craft things by hand (and generally get paid good money to make things the old-fashioned way).
I gotta stop reading these forums this late at night . . . .
So, you have a choice of running Rise of the Runelords and worrying about how many people are lighting lamps in Magnimar and what that does to the price of wheat in Sandpoint, or you just say "Not Important" (TM) and play the game.
Personally, I love economics, but there's no way I'm going to run an RPG with the primary driver of the world be the laws of supply and demand. Players would generally be bored, because who cares that the PCs could start up a Goblin Extermination Corporation and charge Sandpoint a fee to eliminate all the goblins, while another player starts up the Goblin Rescue Agency to sell services to the goblins that allow them to circumvent the GEC, meanwhile navigating the tax laws that Mayor Needsmoney set up to fund his own rise to power?
Perhaps the neater way to look at it is this: The world, as presented, has already worked out the economic realities of sorcerous lamplighters. The sorcerers decided long ago that it wasn't worth their time to light street lamps when there were so many...
I'm not talking about running a campaign all about the economic forces in the marketplace.
I'm talking about taking a look at what magic allows people to do and actually acknowledging that it's there. That it's not "just like medieval Europe, only there are people who can call in Solars and people who can generate an infinite amount of cold." I'm talking about actually considering the impact magic would have on a world, rather than just assuming that it's there but somehow doesn't touch the old knights, serfs, dirt-holes paradigm that people seem to want to assume. This is a very real, very viable possibility. There is magic in the world. It's lowest level effects are so easy that an adequately trained, average intelligence schmo can do them, an infinite number of times a day, with no real exertion. Why would these things NOT actually have become the standard?
I'm not saying you need to run games where the PCs become embroiled in the economic struggles of the lamp-lighters' guilds versus an enterprising sorcerer. I'm saying that you need to take a cold, hard look at exactly how that lamp-lighters' guild would really function when an enterprising, CHA 10 sorcerer can actually do their job more efficiently than a non-magical character can.
It's worth noting that Paizo created Golarion before casters had infinite cantrips, so they obviously weren't considering the impact zero-point energy would have on their world. But if they're going to provide infinite magic to all those classes, it's something that should be taken into account. It's something that should, perhaps, have been taken into account when they conceived the idea in the first place. I know that the "infinite create water" effect came up at least once during the Beta playtest, but Paizo apparently didn't consider that the ramifications of one WIS 10 cleric generating enough water to sustain a village was a potential problem, even though it throws several baseline assumptions about how the world works out of whack.
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It's worth noting that Paizo created Golarion before casters had infinite cantrips, so they obviously weren't considering the impact zero-point energy would have on their world. But if they're going to provide infinite magic to all those classes, it's something that should be taken into account. It's something that should, perhaps, have been taken into account when they conceived the idea in the first place. I know that the "infinite create water" effect came up at least once during the Beta playtest, but Paizo apparently didn't consider that the ramifications of one WIS 10 cleric generating enough water to sustain a village was a potential problem, even though it throws several baseline assumptions about how the world works out of whack.
I'm of two minds on the subject. On the one hand, it's D&D and you're meant to be killing things and taking their stuff while crawling around in an inexplicably underground labyrinth. Maybe there are lamplighter's guilds, and maybe there are Level 1 sorcerors doing the job, and maybe some civic minded wizard made hundreds of everburning torches for the city. Who cares? You take your sword, you follow the plot, you kill the monsters, and you get the loot. Stop asking so many questions! It's like speculation about the Endor Holocaust or R2-D2: the Only True Jedi - it's missing the point. If you can't suspend your disbelief enough to enjoy D&D "straight", why are you playing D&D?
On the other hand, Paizo's biggest selling point for me has always been the richness of the world, and the care taken to have everything make as much sense as possible without sucking the pulp adventure out of things. That sense of verisimilitude does encourage people to ask about Water-Lords of Thuvia vs create water, and Scribner's and Lamplighter's Guilds, and how you explain some of the purely game-balance based costs in realistic terms. And I think Paizo should capitalize on these questions. The fact that threads like this exist means there probably is a market for an article in an AP issue (maybe one of the Kingmakers) about the magical economy of Avistan, or what "wizard society" looks like in the various nations, or how to create a sense of depth by faking a market economy with varying prices. Maybe some of this will be covered in the Gamemastery Manual.
I give Paizo a hard time sometimes, because I'm ornery and somehow associated argumentation with friendship as a youth, but I trust them to make the product that will do the best for Paizo, even if it upsets some of us more simulation-y gamers.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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More bouncing in my head . . . .
Some of this is seems to be based on the idea that people can "choose" their class. Why would anyone choose commoner over wizard (other than as a role playing exercise)? Or that people "choose" to use their highest stat as their professional stat. Maybe a CHA 10 character wants to be a baker (WIS 9) instead of a sorcerer. Maybe the fighter wants to have more skill points and have a higher INT than strength.
The commoner class exists because it's common. The vast majority of civilized population is common. No special abilities, no magical powers, no realistic chance of slaying a dragon. Sure, some might make a mean apple pie, but it's still a mundane (perhaps masterwork) pie.
(snipped the rest)
Just wanted to reply to this. This is how Matthew's Golarion (but not his Eberron!) works. Joe NPC can't just haul his int 10 butt to a public library, pull out a wizards for dummies and 6 months later, toss cantrips around. PC Classed characters are *rare* PCs are even rarer. (about 6-8 at any given time)
But... the Pathfinder campaign setting doesn't assume this. It does have Wizard schools, clear up to the College of Mysteries and the Arcanamirium in Absalom (which even has open tests, so any Int 10 mook who can make it there might get in).
To borrow from another source, in The Dresden Files you have Wizards (like Harry) and Hedge Wizards (like a lot of the patrons of Mac's, and Harry's network). This isn't counting people like Billy and the Werewolves, or people trained to use talismans, or the vampires etc. However ritual magic works and is real. Even someone with no training can make a magic circle in a pinch (see Butters in Dead Beat).
It works in the Dresdenverse, since you're more likely to encounter an SEIU thug with a club instead of a conjured demon (unless you're the poor shulb in the book). But even if you don't allow that commoner 1 to take his next level in wizard, there are going to be concentrations of people with infinate cantrips. I'd just like to see that touched on.
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To borrow from another source, in The Dresden Files you have Wizards (like Harry) and Hedge Wizards (like a lot of the patrons of Mac's, and Harry's network). This isn't counting people like Billy and the Werewolves, or people trained to use talismans, or the vampires etc. However ritual magic works and is real. Even someone with no training can make a magic circle in a pinch (see Butters in Dead Beat).
To drag this idea into my own game, I've considered dividing the Adept class into two classes. One is a divine caster, and gets a Domain at 2nd level instead of Summon Familiar. The other is an arcane caster and gets the usual Familiar option (or the other Arcane Bond option?).
They would have slightly different lists, cribbed from The Game Mechanics Temple Quarter sourcebook. Alternately, if I didn't have that, I might just use the standard Adept list for Divine Adepts and the Magewright list (from the Eberron Campaign Setting) for Arcane Adepts. The *VAST* majority of NPC spellcasters would be arcane or divine Adepts, including the ones in the 'wizards' academies and handling most of the work in the various temples.
The Adept, for an NPC class, is pretty awesome, but the average NPC spellcaster would still be unable to compete with the PC Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid or Wizard, who would master magics 'beyond their ken.'
Of course, the big bad evil guys would remain 'special' like the PCs, having the usual array of Clerics, Wizards and Sorcerers.
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Which is why, over the long haul, it's much more cost efficient to use everburning torches. After all, they'll still be going 100 years from now. Heck, your city will be lit a 1000 years from now. But, it's a large up front cost, which means it may or may not happen.
It's also important for the city ruler to make sure that the everburning 'torches' are large affairs, impractical to steal, due to their worth. Putting one on top of a pole on a city street is just an invitation for somebody with the right skills to take it down and sell it for half-off, making a quick 50-ish gp.
Casting continual flame on a 45 lb spherical 2 ft. diameter framework of wood or rattan made by a cooper or woodworker, and then covered with a thin sheet of beaten brass, decorated with very distinctive heraldry, would tend to discourage people from trying to walk off of it.
Plus the Queen can point them out to visiting dignitaries and chuckle behind her decorative fan as they compliment her on her big, brass balls. :)
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Casting continual flame on a 45 lb spherical 2 ft. diameter framework of wood or rattan made by a cooper or woodworker, and then covered with a thin sheet of beaten brass, decorated with very distinctive heraldry, would tend to discourage people from trying to walk off of it.
You could also just cast it on all the pigeons and rats.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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You could also just cast it on all the pigeons and rats.
Casting continual flame on a 45 lb spherical 2 ft. diameter framework of wood or rattan made by a cooper or woodworker, and then covered with a thin sheet of beaten brass, decorated with very distinctive heraldry, would tend to discourage people from trying to walk off of it.
1) continual flame doesn't work on living creatures.
2) you'd get PETSC on your case (People for The Ethical Treatment of Spell Casters)
3) the peseants would revolt at the thought of DE (Dweomerally Enhanced) food.
4) Poor wizards "You got a rat familiar from Absalom, didn't you?" "Yeah, he doubles as a night light."
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You could also just cast it on all the pigeons and rats.
1) continual flame doesn't work on living creatures.
continual flame as written, doesn't. Clever Jack's improved continual flame, researched at great expense (four whole nights at the pub!), does.
My wizards DO tend to be fond of dropping basic continual flames on the Dwarf's beard, though.
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Just tattoo the rodent and put continual flame on the tattoo.
This defeats the purpose of glowing rats and flaming pigeons - they're easy to find and ubiquitous! See a rat scurrying along? Zap it with The Glow. All those pigeons on the statues of Abrogail I? Zap 'em with The Glow. If you have to catch and tattoo the rats, you might as well just hire those lazy bastards in the Lamplighter's Guild again.
I try to look at this from a Star Trek standpoint. The synthesizer can make any food or drink in existence, but Guinan has the 'real' stuff in Ten Forward because the replicator's version isn't quite right. Same with magic - it's close, but not as good as the natural thing. KFC doesn't stop people from making their own homemade fried chicken. Same with Mending - it'll fix your shoes, but then they wear out again faster. Amen.. aman.. crap.. the copying spell... maybe the magical ink fades quicker or is more subject to smearing unless the book itself is also magical? In order to have some semblance of what we consider 'normalcy' with the presence of magic, abundant low-level magic has to be inherently somehow inferior over a long period of time.
Which is why, over the long haul, it's much more cost efficient to use everburning torches. After all, they'll still be going 100 years from now. Heck, your city will be lit a 1000 years from now. But, it's a large up front cost, which means it may or may not happen.
May not. Who's going to half-bankrupt the city in his legislature so some people in the distant future don't have to pay the lantern bearer?
Yeah, that will go over well with the fathers of the starving children who aren't fed so this project could be pulled off :P
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Some of this is seems to be based on the idea that people can "choose" their class. Why would anyone choose commoner over wizard (other than as a role playing exercise)? Or that people "choose" to use their highest stat as their professional stat. Maybe a CHA 10 character wants to be a baker (WIS 9) instead of a sorcerer. Maybe the fighter wants to have more skill points and have a higher INT than strength.
And this was the point I was trying to express earlier. Just because lots of people can qualify for a spellcasting class, doesn't mean their life situation will allow them to take the class. Would the wizard's college rather spend time teaching 100 average INT people how to cast mending, or spend the same amount of time (and most likely less effort) to teach a half dozen gifted students (INT 16+) how to cast Ice Storm?
Yes, perhaps they can create a low grade magical cottage industry with the average students, and it can be a strong cash inflow. But aren't the exceptional students more likely provide a greater benefit through creating magic items, contribute funds, researching new spells, and bring back rare artifacts through adventuring?
Discuss.
And on a side note, continual flame pigeons and rats are no big deal. When your players decide to cast it on a series of codpieces to provide a "unifying theme" for the group, talk to me.
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Would the wizard's college rather spend time teaching 100 average INT people how to cast mending, or spend the same amount of time (and most likely less effort) to teach a half dozen gifted students (INT 16+) how to cast Ice Storm?
If they're not colossal jerkwads, and if they give half a crap about society, they'd be all over the former.
But aren't the exceptional students more likely provide a greater benefit through creating magic items, contribute funds, researching new spells, and bring back rare artifacts through adventuring?
Would those be the magic items that provide no benefit to society at large, the funds in the form of gold and treasures stolen from indigenous populations, new spells that focus mostly on killing other people in increasingly gruesome fashion when they're not about enslaving other sapient beings, and the rare artifacts that are, nine times out of ten, dedicated to some dark god and precipitate potential apocalypses?
So what you're saying is that the Wizards' colleges ARE run by colossal jerkwads who don't give a crap about society? ;)