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It is more of is the extra cruch of being optimized more trouble then any old way of making a character?
Interesting question. I think that more than anything the answer boils down to the player in question. I don't think that there is a universal answer. It ends up being more what you get out of the game than what works or doesn't work.
It is more trouble than the old way -- of course it is. It almost has to be, you take the time to look over the options, judge them, compare them, decide on them, the order to take them, and if they should be taken instead of just "what looks neat" or "what will do" or simply "I pointed to it so I took it" so it will be more work.
Is it worth it? It depends. Sometimes it really is and other times not so much.
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Many that I've played with like to have it both ways as well (been a while since I've been over on the Wizards boards, odd to see Stormwind's name pop up over here). There is a time an place for and optimized build, however, and often its *not* the majority of games that I run. I try to run games that are a fair mix of combat and roleplaying, and often a build optimized for one or the other seems lack luster compared to those that are generalized.
Fighter-types who dump their mental scores will lack skill points or even have a penalized modifier for when they need to make checks during diplomatic encounters. Those who build for roleplay often become "liabilities" in combat, and it turns each adventure into an escort mission.
Those characters who build for many different situations are the ones who end up rewarded with something to do in every situation, but this is specific to my game and probably only a few others. Most other games I hear of seem highly combat oriented.
So I geuss optimization can be a hinderence. Of course, generalizing could be called its own form of optimization.
Optimizing or just building what you roleplay is actually not the issue as you presented, so much as playing the same game.
A Divine Metamagic: Persist Cleric with a pile of Nightsticks is usually going to be hideously overpowered, but if the other party members are a Loredrake Dragonwrough Kobold Sorcerer with Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, an Archivist using arcane-to-divine stunts to get access to every spell in the game, and an Artificer being played by a CPA, then that DMM Cleric is what it takes to keep the pace and stay in the same league as your comrades.
Likewise, a normal sword-and-board Fighter is generally underpowered and unable to keep up past the early levels in a fairly optimized party. However, if your teammates consist of a Healer, a Warmage (one not relying on heavy metamagic utilization), and a two-weapon Ranger (all also traditionally underpowered classes), then the sword-and-board Fighter fits right in and can contribute meaningfully.
Less important than what level of optimization you are using is what level of optimization the group as a whole is using, so that everyone can be comparably powerful/pitiful and meaningfully contribute to the success of the group in an equal manner, without anyone utterly eclipsing everyone else. Which is part of what makes group character creation so important.
For this party, it sounds like you have a case where most of the party members' levels of mechanical power is in the range from "low" to "pathetic," while your character is well above that, and such situations can cause problems. Perhaps you can scale things back a bit yourself, and help the other people in the group come up with more effective character options for their own characters, to meet somewhere in the middle.
Keep in mind that you were not optimized to be the main damage dealer in the group. Your job is to keep things hitting you and then, and only then, dish out some decent hurt. Oh... and stay alive when they are hitting you.
You have high HP, a pool of damage reserve, and ways to heal yourself. You can do things like give the enemy a -4 to hit if they ignore you and they know it, so they stay on you. AFTER all that, you still have some pretty good options for doing damage, but if you get some bad die rolls... no worries, that wasn't your main job.
If everyone walks out of an encounter with very little hurt then you did a good job at what you were optimized for. Fortunately you can still have some fun laying down smack. (Nothing you can do about dice rolls)
Sean Mahoney
Greetings all. New poster here and love all I have seen so far. Now I got a small problem. I game with a group of friends on friday nights. There are six of us then the DM. We are nearing the end of the Sunless Citidal modual.
So far things have been ok. There are times I have to leave early and I miss out on some fights but that is not the issue. See I am playing an optimized human crusader. I had asked the WotC Char Op board for help and they helped out a whole lot. Thin is when I used any of my abilities they seem lackluster to what everyone else does. I used strikes and been in stance yet doing more by just attacking.
I know everyone has bad luck with die rolls so it is not so much that. Just seems I optimized my character enough that it may be overkill. To finish the party's makeup we have an elf sorcerer who is a pyro (which means one fireball is availible he is taking it) with combat casting feat, halfling rogue with lightning reflexes feat, half elf cleric with extra turning feat, half elf bard with with one the dual skill boosting feats (I think persuasion), and an orecutter dwarf barbarian (A +4 LA race from races of faerun).
So my question, after the wall of text, is can optimizing a character be more of a hinderance then just making a character based on how you role play?
Thank you.
P.S. I know about the Stormwind Fallacy and I am not debating it. Role playing vs crunch is not the problem. It is more of is the extra cruch of being optimized more trouble then any old way of making a character?
What manuevers and stances did you select, and what was the intended goal when you made your character?
Can you provide instances that prevented your character from being effective?
You may have picked the wrong class for the job.
As far as optimizing being a hindrance, I think it can be if you put all your eggs in one basket. I normally make my characters really good at one thing, but at least decent in other areas. A one-trick pony is hard to defeat in their element, but may be useless otherwise.
Good points but I am not the main damage dealer in the group. In fact the dwarf with the +4 LA does way more damage. As a quick stop the DM had us roll our stats, 4d6 drop lowest reroll 1's and 2's. My stats came out as 15 Str, 14 Dex, 15 Con, 14 Int, 12 Wis, and 15 Cha. So my stats are above average but no 18s. I am mostly the tank of the group trying to do trip attacks and such. Have had bad die rolls with weilding any weapon while doing a strike, though i get good rolls with using unarmed/spiked gauntlets and my secondary weapon.
I think once we get out of the modual and not follow pre written session things will smooth out. Though now I am unsure if I bring up to them DM the fact that the dwarf is a +4 LA. I know the player really like his dwarf but the LA will hurt him as we will hit levels 5-6 quickly while he bearly will hit 3. Of course the DM can rule it void and do what he attempted to do with my crusader. Make powers have a limit. Again thanks all.
You are playing a nerfed crusader?
I seemed to have missed that part. What kinds of houserules are there on your powers, anyways? A bad houserule can ruin pretty much anything.
Yes.
Thank you for contributing absolutely nothing to the conversation.