How often do nobles, nations, or powerful organizations use teleport?
I asked this once long ago on the FR boards and never did get a satisfactory answer.
If Cheliax wants to send an ambassador to Taldor, would they bother to outfit a warship and have the ambassador sail there or would they just teleport him?
Greater teleport is a fairly high level spell (7th wizard), but it seems to me that it wouldn't be all that uncommon for every court to have a wizard capable of casting it. If that were the case, how reliant would nations be on overland or overseas communication?
For some reason, I have always DM'd and scripted scenarios assuming that teleport was rare, but the more I read the DM Guide and the Pathfinder rulebook, I'm not sure anymore. I don't think kings, queens, wizards, or the wealthy would ever risk travelling by caravan or ship if they could avoid it and it seems they could avoid it fairly easily.
But I prefer the idea of it being rare, I just wonder how much sense that makes.
I like to assume that the vast majority of the world is capped at level 6, so teleporting would be very rare. It depends on your campaign, of course.
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Since they said only the major clerics of the orders are even high enough to resurrect... I would say that the average level of wizard is rare enough that teleporting is uncommon. I think James or Erik stated at one point that the elves have some permanent teleportation rings set up in various places...
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It depends.
If you play as close as possible to the book then find out the cost of teleporting and the financial resources of the NPCs; then determine if they reasonably have the ability to teleport regularly or rarely.
If you play liberally then decide if you want your NPCs to be able to teleport when they want.
If you game like most and want to stick with the raw as long as it doesn't break stuff or slow gaming down, do the math and see what the result is; if you don't like the bottom line think of a legitimate reason to change it.
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In my game, PCs & NPC enemies use different spells/ spell levels than NPC non-adversaries. So, for them, spells and their levels make sense based on their effect on the community, not how they affect game play.
For PCs, a unseen servant is legitimately first level, but for the average person that would be a hugely powerful spell. Think of it, you can have your unseen servant clean your house, light street lanterns, etc. That's gotta be like a 6th level spell for all its important uses. It's just not that important for PCs fighting orcs. Think about it. Make a PC librarian. Make his spell list. Determine which spells are more "powerful" (more useful).
-W. E. Ray
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I like to assume that the vast majority of the world is capped at level 6
Wow, I'm not a big fan of this. It makes the PCs too powerful and more importantly, the world too unrealistic.
Lemme tell ya, the king (or whatever) of a huge city in my world is gonna be powerful -- maybe a 20th level Aristocrat with 6 (or so) levels of Expert and, heck, even a couple levels of Adept. He'll have Epic Leadership and his Cohort will have Epic Leadership. And they'll have some nobles (or whatever) with some serious PC class levels and PrCs.
-W. E. Ray
A 10th-level wizard should be able to make one or two teleport runs every day and return, but that's a spellcasting service worth 500 gp per trip. Relying on teleports could cost a kingdom 15,000 gp a month. Moreover, looking at the map, Egorian is nearly 1200 miles from Oppara, which is outside the range of a 10th-level wizard.
Ezren is 10th level, and he has better things to do with his time than on-call teleports for some bureaucrats. But it might be a good way to make some bank on an off month for spell research, copying spells, and item creation.
If he's not interested in ferrying you around, what are you going to do? Six seconds later, the guy can be a thousand miles away.
Lemme tell ya, the king (or whatever) of a huge city in my world is gonna be powerful -- maybe a 20th level Aristocrat with 6 (or so) levels of Expert and, heck, even a couple levels of Adept.
Some of them, yes. The Ruby Prince is pretty hardcore. But there's no reason that a foppish prince who ascended the throne coz his daddy died would have 200+ hit points and be able to cast wishes.
To get to 20th level, you should have overcome hundreds of encounters appropriate to your level. That's a lot of monster-slaying, including probably a bunch of adult dragons and some powerful demons.
I like to assume that the vast majority of the world is capped at level 6, so teleporting would be very rare. It depends on your campaign, of course.
Capped at level 6?
Bah!
Your average city watchman would pass that by his 3rd year...
On the other hand, mages have a harder time of it. They rarely roam the streets in gangs, looking for troublemakers and lawbreakers to arrest for XP.
It's a whole lot riskier to actually have to run out and plunder monster-infested ruins for your XP.
What about getting XP for mundane stuff? How does a baker ever achieve commoner level 2 unless he can get XP for baking. How does a merchant ever achieve expert level 2 unless he gets XP for selling. Noblemen might occasionally advance by combat/encounter XP, but only some of them. The rest have to do it some other way.
So, clearly, there must be some way for average non-adventurer folk to level up. Whatever that way is, it's apparently very slow because they don't seem to achieve very many levels.
And still the rogue-rousting city watchman blows them all away, with the orc/goblin/kobold-repelling farmers coming in a close second.
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Another reason for merely-mortal travel methods:
Pomp.
Showing up with a sparkle of magical light a la teleport: pretty good.
Showing up with a full squad of your elite soldiers, on a beautiful galleon/coach? Even better.
Besides, what noble would really wander off via teleport without some bodyguards, functionaries, a valet, maybe a herald, and assorted flunkies?
In other words, you can teleport and be efficient, but you can't be nearly as impressive without the retinue and the assorted things that say 'power' like ships.
I like to assume that the vast majority of the world is capped at level 6, so teleporting would be very rare. It depends on your campaign, of course.
You're not the only one who shares that opinion, although in that article, Sean Reynolds puts the cap at about 9th level.
Another reason for merely-mortal travel methods:
Pomp.
Showing up with a sparkle of magical light a la teleport: pretty good.
Showing up with a full squad of your elite soldiers, on a beautiful galleon/coach? Even better.
Besides, what noble would really wander off via teleport without some bodyguards, functionaries, a valet, maybe a herald, and assorted flunkies?
In other words, you can teleport and be efficient, but you can't be nearly as impressive without the retinue and the assorted things that say 'power' like ships.
This is a good point.
I overthink these things. I was thinking of a situation where Cheliax would send someone to Taldor. Why not teleport here there and then send a ship to bring her back. That keeps the powerful wizard in the empire, but cuts down on the delay in delivering a message.
15,000 GP a month for teleporting is a good point. Of course, how expensive this is depends on the GDP and tax infrastructure of the kingdom. Instantaneous communication would be an enormous boon.
But I think I'm comfortable imagining that most normal diplomatic business would not be conducted via teleport.
Thanks all.
Good point.
But I dunno how long a fop would stay in power in my game -- Perhaps that's one of my weaknesses as DM. I'm stuck with the belief that those in power are qualified. I should change.
No, I also believe that those in power are qualified; they just have 6 (or fewer) levels of qualification. :-)
Of course there are exceptions (the Witch-King of Angmar or what have you).
Creative Director
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The elves have a network of fixed-location portals called elfgates that they can use to quickly move from location to location, but that's not the same as teleportation from the 5th level spell.
While Golarion's "level cap" (if indeed it has one, which it doesn't really) is more or less at 20th level, it's actually relatively rare to see characters of 9th level or higher. They certainly exist, but don't confuse the fact that for adventures and supplements things skew toward higher level stuff that that means they're super commonplace.
In Golarion, teleporting is not common. Even at its lowest level, getting a teleport spell from a wizard will cost you 450 gp... one way. Most wizards, i suspect, will try to charge you 900 gp since they'll probably need to cast the spell at least twice, since they have to go back where they came from. And that only gets a couple of people teleported. Shipping a huge number of people or goods via teleportation probably needs the more powerful teleportation circle spell, which runs 2,530 gp to cast.
Compare those prices to, say, the price of a ship's passage for 100 miles—ten gold pieces.
Teleporation in Golarion is for the very rich and powerful, and as such is not all that common at all. Which is by design, because having ships and long shipping routes they sail on supports a LOT of really cool plotlines, after all!
Also: Teleportation is a crazy impressive magical stunt. If it were common, it would become dull and ordinary, and that's not the type of world we want Golarion to be.
Honestly, it all depends on your DM and the level of the campaign. If the characters in question are "hired" by some Count, Baron, spoiled noble to teleport, then the PC's in question are obviously higher level then the resources of the area, hence they requested the services. If this is the case, then the general area the PC's are in for this setting is lower level and the nobles and royalty do not have access to these higher level spells. If the PC's are in a large city with multiple guilds, fighters, priests, merchants, thieves...there is going to be a lot of high level NPC's that may or may not be selling the services.
In general, its all how the DM wants his campaign ran. As the PC's rise in level, (as a DM) I also "level up" the NPC's they will encounter and the PC's will find area's that a teleport is common. My settings/campaign worlds aren't blanket capped. There is always a grander scheme of things going on that the lower level pc's would have no clue of whats happening. As they level they start encountering higher lvl NPC's villains or the good guys and the PC's learn quick enough that beneath the surface of this land lies...many planes, many evils and many forces of good battling.
Long story short and my 2 cents....
Whether or not the PC's can find a teleport in the area they are in, if they look hard enough they WILL find a town/region/city that does this regularly and it is second nature. But by the time they hit this level they have already made enemies (from the grander scheme of things)and probably are either running from them, trying to fight them or establish their own names in the world and generate fame for their names. As with fame you get the good and bad.
My world, if you look hard enough you can always find what you want...for a price.
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What about getting XP for mundane stuff? How does a baker ever achieve commoner level 2 unless he can get XP for baking. How does a merchant ever achieve expert level 2 unless he gets XP for selling. Noblemen might occasionally advance by combat/encounter XP, but only some of them. The rest have to do it some other way.
So, clearly, there must be some way for average non-adventurer folk to level up. Whatever that way is, it's apparently very slow because they don't seem to achieve very many levels.
I once came up with the formula of 1 XP per day of mundane work. At 6 day of work per week, that gives you about 313 XP per year for the average Joe.
Using the slow progression, that's about 10 years to level 2, 14 more to 3rd, and 21 more to 4th. And after 45 years of drudgery, you drop dead.
Using the fast progression, it's 4 years to 2nd, 6 to 3rd, 9 to 4th, 13 to 5th, and 16 to 6th. And after 48 years of drudgery, you drop dead.
I don't know, seems about right to me.
I think 20th level commoners, while as rare among their kind as 20th level adventurers among theirs, certainly exist. An 80 year old commoner is level 20, and while his life has been uneventful compared to an adventurer's, he's still seen a lot of things, and survived. He gets XP for living, not adventuring. He's not an adventurer, but even mundane life gives people some experience.
He's got 50 hp (well, factor in the age penalty and it's less), no armor, and maybe a useable weapon on him. A 2nd level party could tear him apart in a few rounds, if they wanted to. He's bound to lose, but it could take longer than they might expect. Being high level, he is probably known and liked by a few people who COULD hurt the party.
A 20th level warrior would be harder, but still not much of a challenge to a low-level party. He got XP for standing watch day after day, and he's probably fought some battles. He's no fighter, just a guard who fights when he has to for security, not piles of treasure. He probably leads and trains other guards, and they do practice fighting.
20th level adepts, aristocrats and experts would likewise be way easy to kill, in and of themselves. Most PCs wouldn't do such a thing, but the NPC in question would be a respected figure in their worlds (generally), and the PCs would have to worry about who they might know who has what it takes to come after them for revenge.
20th level NPC classed characters can exist, AFAIC. The old ones are often tougher than they look. They'll have some skills and know a lot of people, as a rule. If you want a commoner who knows where to find the crazy druid, make a high-level commoner or expert with enough ranks to realistically have met or visited the guy.
"Yeah, I've known him for years. He comes around every summer to trade his berries for some of my tasty tomatoes. He keeps to himself, but he's nice to us."
"Yeah, he comes around once a year or so for metal goods; horseshoes, and the like. Lives way deep in the whispering woods over yonder. Got the smartest horse I've ever seen."
The "commoner who wouldn't die" joke can be a reality!
Thank you very much for the reply James Jacobs!
That's what I thought and hoped was probably true.
I'm not getting the answers I want every time (or anything close to them on one issue), but I'm impressed I'm getting any at all from the creators.
I created a new world on Christopher West's World of Mystery and torpedoed all teleporting (including dimension door and druidic tree strides). I'm running STAP and I didn't want the PC's shortcutting the sea voyages.
But my reason was greater than that. Teleporting turns campaigns into a bunch of set pieces. There gets to be a lack of connection between the points when you just "beam up" from one place to the next.
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There's a very good reason why nobles would mistrust teleport: death by interior decorating.
Your average noble is less original than they'd like to pretend. They may think their townhouses's sitting room with the tapesty depicting the noble gryphon crest of their house is unique, but it's not. Their ancestor had the tapesty copied from a fresco on the wall of his now abandoned hunting lodge deep in the forest, there's another copy on the wall of an old pub (which the publican recently paid a limner to spruce up to its original luster), and there's a fourth copy of the fresco on the inner wall of an ancient tomb, the same tomb the noble's ancestor plundered the shield with the gryphon crest from in an epic battle where he and his fellow adventurers barely escaped the resident undead, only turning, not destroying it. And the original artist who painted the tomb's fresco copied the gryphon from a (now lost) painting which the artist painted from life, from a particular crag where gryphons still land and Charm Monster could get one to pose for a painting.
Now, assuming a highly competent wizard who is intimately familiar with the noble's sitting room and that tapestry, there's zero of Mishap, a 2% chance of ending up somewhere completely random, and only a 1% chance that they accidentally end up in the abandoned hunting lodge, the old pub, the haunted tomb, or the crag which still has live gryphons which are not conveniently charmed at the moment.
This is Russian roulette already, but it gets worse. The noble decides to teleport back on the same day that his wife has engaged an overzealous new maid who has taken it upon herself to take that dusty old tapestry out in the garden and give it a good whacking with a carpet beater. Sans distinctive tapesty, the sitting room now looks nothing like what the wizard is thinking of, so they end up with a False Destination, which is another way of saying a viscious spin-cycle between Mishap and Similar Area. Even if the wizard and the noble are lucky enough to end up in the old pub (rather than the haunted tomb, the gryphons crag, or whatever perils lurk in the abandoned hunting lodge), they may be dead by that point already due to Mishap damage.
Meanwhile, the maid hangs the tapestry back up, not bothering to tell the mistress of the house what she did. The noble is never heard from again, and the wizard--if he survived--is hardly going to want the malpractice suit for the noble's death. He lies, saying the noble never showed up for his appointment, and even if the family manages to ferret out the truth, what's left is a horrible tale of the possible mishaps of teleportation.
This is even without foul play. A clever enemy who had been entertained in the sitting room, with an artistic eye, could have had the sitting room copied in another building and set up an ambush, sending in the maid as a secret agent to take down the tapestry when the wizard is expected to teleport the noble back. Or maybe just making a copy of the room and fill it with traps so when a wizard does screw up, there's a magnet to draw him and his passengers into that Similar Area. Or, and this is always a good tactic when the noble you want dead has a wizard friend to teleport him out of ambushes, go after the wizard in a less guarded moment and have a bard use Modify Memory to give the wizard a memory of a safe place that doesn't exist (and thus an instant False Destination) and a Suggestion to use this locale the next time he needs to save the noble's bacon.
I would agree with Lathiira.
Think of it this way:
The United States has many, many diplomats. Including lots in the Middle East. They send diplomats via jet every day.
But, when the government wants to make a point, they send an carrier group into the Persian Gulf.
Teddy Roosevelt did something like this with the Great White Fleet (1907-09). "Take a good look and decide if you really want a piece of this" sort of thing.
So, if Cheliax wanted to send a diplomat to a neighboring country, would they send one man via flashy teleport spell? Or, would an armada from the Chelaxian Navy show up in slave galleys complete with a full compliment of marines in dress uniforms?
I would think they would send the diplomat via fleet, and send the "special envoy of Asmodeus" via teleport, since Taldor (or anyone else) wouldn't necessarily want a fiendish assassin in their midst.
But that's just me.
If my GM said there's no teleport, I'd be cool with it. Gandalf didn't teleport. He rode a really fast horse. LOL!
I had a DM who didn't like hold person, so it didn't exist. No sweat.
Alternately, you could call teleport a higher-level spell; say 7th. Greater teleport could be done with a wish or miracle spell, but that's it. You'd do that only when you absolutely, positively, have to be there overnight. Might cost ya.
For Golarion, the PFRPG exists, and t-port can be used as advertised, in most campaigns. It does get crazy at high level, particularly if you have more than one caster who can cast it, like I had in one campaign. It made us extremely mobile, but our globetrotting was never a breeze.
Why? Our attempts at scry/teleport/kill worked early on, but at higher levels, the baddies had mind blank, multiple places to hide out, and they were trying to scry US, forcing my sorcerer to burn 4 mind blanks a day, or else we'd be the ones getting whacked in our sleep.
Try blinking in, and a number of things can happen, like a host of readied alarms, traps and constructs, all triggered by your sudden arrival. BBEGs are notorious for having endless resources; the kind you can't take home as treasure. They're always richer than you, and they (or an accomplice) always have a quickened escape spell at the ready. You didn't surprise him, and he just went somewhere else, leaving you to deal or flee. If he or a minion casts dimensional anchor on your teleport guy, you're in for an extended stay.
I had the pleasure of playing with a crafty DM, and in spite of our uberness, we got our clocks cleaned fairly often. High level works, but it's more work for the GM. Don't fear the teleport, not even the greater one. It guarantees nothing.
BTW, I agree with the general consensus about people hiring teleports. Most folks who can afford to retain a caster for it would get limited use from that particular spell, and it can go horribly wrong for them. Better to have the flashy entourage.
If my GM said there's no teleport, I'd be cool with it. Gandalf didn't teleport. He rode a really fast horse. LOL!
Indeed. In my campaign, I want people to be impressed by a Gandalf-level character, not yawning and saying "He must've spent three years in the city watch." :-)
[cue the rebuttals: "Gandalf did all kinds of epic-level stuff when we weren't looking!!"]
Teleportation circle costs just 1000 gp, but it's a ninth level spell and it's not permanent any more. So the magic mass transit system is no more. The bad guys of Golarion, by their description, probably have easy access to teleport. I imagine that heroes and villains still do it quite a bit, while royalty do not.
There's also the question of etiquette, which is important when dealing with nobles, courts etc.
Consider the following:
The new US Ambassador to Moscow arrives on a 747 at the airport. He gets into a limo from the embassy with a Marine escort, and goes to meet President Medvedev to present his credentials.
The new US Ambassador to Moscow arrives on an Air Force transport with a couple of fighter escorts. He gets into a armoured transport vehicle, which then proceeds to the Kremlin to present his credentials while his armed soldiers clear the streets.
The new US Ambassador to Moscow flies over Red Square in an Air Force transport. He jumps out, deploys his Stars and Stripes parachute and smoke streamers, lands, unzips his flight suit, and then boogies up to the Kremlin doors present his credentials to the strains of James Brown's "Living in America".
Now while all of these COULD happen, the first would be seen as acceptable, the second would cause a diplomatic incident, and the third would be seen as unbelievably crass and undiplomatic.
In the same way, the Cheliax ambassador to Taldor COULD just teleport right into the Taldorean court with his retinue of fiends. Or turn up on a fully armed warship with armed-to-the-teeth marines. But he is surely more likely to arrive on a diplomatic vessel with a small retinue and a personal bodyguard.
The new US Ambassador to Moscow flies over Red Square in an Air Force transport. He jumps out, deploys his Stars and Stripes parachute and smoke streamers, lands, unzips his flight suit, and then boogies up to the Kremlin doors present his credentials to the strains of James Brown's "Living in America".
HAHAHAHA!
Teleportation for ambassadors is a very interesting field. Let's consider:
Andoran wants to send an emissary to Korvosa. The guy in question is among the most respected administrators of Andoran, a very rich guy who has an entire stable of servants. Let's say the need is somewhat pressing, but there IS time to send him the long way if necessary. Let's call him A.
A doesn't have an embassy waiting in Korvosa. This means that while he COULD get teleported there quickly and efficiently, he would be all alone, with only what he could carry himself. Certainly, the new regent in Korvosa has offered to house him in the castle while he stays there, but he would be entirely at the mercy of the Korvosans, who could also decide to hold him hostage if things don't work out. Most probably, Andoran would feel the risk of doing so clearly not worth taking. With a good ship, they could send soldiers, various diplomats and their aides, a few servants and bookkeepers and so on, and NOT risk having A kidnapped. Strike one for the boat trip.
Second, the time aspect. If Korvosa was important enough for Andoran, they would already have some sort of embassy there, so we can assume it's not. The question is how important is speed here, really? Is it a chance of a lifetime? Sure, splurge the money to get a number of people teleported there. Is it of moderate importance? Well, it can probably wait a little while, at least the two or three weeks sailing there would take. And while the boat trip costs very little, having all those you send being inactive during the trip itself is a bigger cost, which still doesn't match the cost of the teleportation spells.
All in all: Most likely, teleportation is used to transport things of great value (and thus vulnerable to banditry) quickly and unseen. Information has other options, dream, sending, and so on, and these are probably well used. When you need to transport people, establish embassies and the like, it's the old ways that rule the scene.
It would be kind of difficult for a new 9th-level wizard to set up a teleport courier business, since the 5th-level spell has the error chance. A wizard attempting this would have to travel between each destination the meatspace way at least once. If he was going to do this, he would probably have to travel from Egorian to Absalom via ship, to establish a teleportation "port" in each city. Having those two nodes that he is "very familiar" with would make it a relatively safe and reliable way to travel, but limits the utility of the service. A full-time diplomat-teleporting business would require several or a dozen high-level wizards.
Greater teleport is better, but it costs minimum 910 gp one way.
OTOH, the rents in Absalom are pretty high, and I'm sure there's some wizards there at the Arcanamirium or elsewhere that would be willing to provide teleports for cash to help maintain swank digs. He'd probably HAVE to offer those kind of spellcasting services just to afford a modest wizard's townhouse in a reasonable neighborhood. Absalom seems the likeliest place for this kind of service.
And certainly I'd guess that a nation at war would be making use of all the high-level wizards they can get their hands on, for teleports, fireballs, &c.
The game world certainly has to be built around the assumption that there are high-level creatures that can teleport. Abrogail Thrune II may be a child monarch, but I hear that she's got some powerful devils in her service.
If you assume that high-level spellcasting services are freely available, though, it will certainly impact the campaign--most significantly because there's tons of NPC clerics that can helpfully raise dead PCs. A campaign were every town has a 6th-level cleric is very different from a campaign where every town has a 10th-level cleric.
This is a good discussion to have. Teleport likely gets used for:
1) emergencies
2) convenience (if the ambassador or messenger is the caster)
3) return trips not voyages out
I can see enterprising wizards setting up lower level teleports for getting messages across the distances, or variations on message spells to do the same. It would be the Golarion equivalent of the diplomatic pouch. You still have to move troops and forces over land though, so even if you have better communications at times, it doesn't solve the big problems that countries have, it just improves the speed of the communication on critical issues.
He gets XP for living, not adventuring.
Yes he does. But not nearly enough to get to level 20.
I mean, what kinds of challenges does a commoner face? Does he face increasingly difficult challenges? At level 10, will the pig herder suddenly start herding dire pigs?
I don't think so, either.
What does he face? I think CR1 is the biggest challenge they face (or maybe harder ones if they work together, but then they get less XP for it), and even that is hard for a 1st-level NPC.
But say he does. To reach 20th level, you need 2,400,000 XP, even on fast. That's 6000 CR1 challenges.
That's the equivalent of one CR 1 encounter per week for 80 years (and you need to start at birth).
No, that doesn't check out.
He gets XP for living, not adventuring.Yes he does. But not nearly enough to get to level 20.
I mean, what kinds of challenges does a commoner face? Does he face increasingly difficult challenges? At level 10, will the pig herder suddenly start herding dire pigs?
I don't think so, either.
What does he face? I think CR1 is the biggest challenge they face (or maybe harder ones if they work together, but then they get less XP for it), and even that is hard for a 1st-level NPC.
But say he does. To reach 20th level, you need 2,400,000 XP, even on fast. That's 6000 CR1 challenges.
That's the equivalent of one CR 1 encounter per week for 80 years (and you need to start at birth).
No, that doesn't check out.
I see your point, but how do any NPCs get XP? It's whatever the GM decides. I like villagers with levels, which is why they don't all die immediately when a crazed goblin runs through town (at least in my world). Life is experience for them. Unless you're evil, you wouldn't hurt a villager, and have no idea what his level is, just as he doesn't know yours. It doesn't figure that he has to fight to level up. He doesn't go on adventures, but there's a table that says he could go as high as 20th level. That's rare, though.
Among any community (our current culture being a possible exception), the old and experienced are generally respected, and actually know more than the younger folks. They're good at things they were once bad at, much like adventurers. Medieval life went on about the same for centuries, with little change over time. They don't fall behind the times because the technology stays pretty static.It's not a huge thing, anyway, since villagers aren't very exciting to adventurers, so their levels go unmentioned. The young ones are out doing the hard work, the old ones do less, but teach more. Living long enough to get old makes you a pretty sharp commoner.
He gets XP for living, not adventuring.
Yes he does. But not nearly enough to get to level 20.I mean, what kinds of challenges does a commoner face? Does he face increasingly difficult challenges? At level 10, will the pig herder suddenly start herding dire pigs?
I don't think so, either.
What does he face? I think CR1 is the biggest challenge they face (or maybe harder ones if they work together, but then they get less XP for it), and even that is hard for a 1st-level NPC.
But say he does. To reach 20th level, you need 2,400,000 XP, even on fast. That's 6000 CR1 challenges.
That's the equivalent of one CR 1 encounter per week for 80 years (and you need to start at birth).
No, that doesn't check out.
I see your point, but how do any NPCs get XP? It's whatever the GM decides. I like villagers with levels, which is why they don't all die immediately when a crazed goblin runs through town (at least in my world). Life is experience for them. Unless you're evil, you wouldn't hurt a villager, and have no idea what his level is, just as he doesn't know yours. It doesn't figure that he has to fight to level up. He doesn't go on adventures, but there's a table that says he could go as high as 20th level. That's rare, though.
Among any community (our current culture being a possible exception), the old and experienced are generally respected, and actually know more than the younger folks. They're good at things they were once bad at, much like adventurers. Medieval life went on about the same for centuries, with little change over time. They don't fall behind the times because the technology stays pretty static.It's not a huge thing, anyway, since villagers aren't very exciting to adventurers, so their levels go unmentioned. The young ones are out doing the hard work, the old ones do less, but teach more. Living long enough to get old makes you a pretty sharp commoner.
Then there's the epic commoner...:)
*CLIP*
Also: Teleportation is a crazy impressive magical stunt. If it were common, it would become dull and ordinary, and that's not the type of world we want Golarion to be.
I could see a few wizards capable of teleportation getting together to form a guild that caters to the rich and powerful. Business would be far and between... but for 12 seconds worth of work you teleport your subject to its location and teleport back and bank 450 gp. Not bad for taking 2 rounds of time out of your day.
If the wizards are smart they make sure to have some good publicity and sell some other services or spells as part of a package. Eagles Splendor and some minor illusionary effects perhaps so they arrive "in style".
Yes its a crazy impressive magical stunt. Its rarity makes it a great way to flaunt your wealth and power as well and insure you make an impression upon arrival. More so if you send your retinue ahead of you by more normal means to set things up to make sure your arrival will be noticed. Spread rumors and set up a special location for you to teleport to for example.
Because of its price it'll never become "common" and with enough flash... it'll never be boring.
Whoa... one 1st level encounter every week for 60 years? Never thought of it that way... consider:
Dude turns 15. Gets his hoe, shovel and cloth bag, and starts farming. Every week, he seeks out a CR 1 challenge. He does this throughout his life (yeah, like the brain and muscle training stuff, use it or lose it), and one day he turns 75. By now he is a buff 20th level commoner, with corresponding amounts of cash, a +10 BAB, 50 hp, and saves at +6. He has also upped his 11,11,11,10,10,10 array by five points, he has 7 feats of his choice. His profession (farmer) is around +23, good enough for a pretty good income. These stats give him great saves against disease (at least better than anyone else's...), he can whup any orc without even trying, he has cash to buy some really decent equipment.
Now consider that every commoner does this. You'll end up with a situation that's a complete gerontocracy, with the hordes of elderly 20th level commoners being the leaders of ANY society. They form the defense squad (embarrassing what poor eyesight can mean in terms of friendly fire) armed with nasty canes.
No. They do NOT get a CR 1 encounter every week for 60 years.
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Teleportation for ambassadors is a very interesting field. Let's consider:
Andoran wants to send an emissary to Korvosa. The guy in question is among the most respected administrators of Andoran, a very rich guy who has an entire stable of servants. Let's say the need is somewhat pressing, but there IS time to send him the long way if necessary. Let's call him A.
A doesn't have an embassy waiting in Korvosa. This means that while he COULD get teleported there quickly and efficiently, he would be all alone, with only what he could carry himself. Certainly, the new regent in Korvosa has offered to house him in the castle while he stays there, but he would be entirely at the mercy of the Korvosans, who could also decide to hold him hostage if things don't work out. Most probably, Andoran would feel the risk of doing so clearly not worth taking. With a good ship, they could send soldiers, various diplomats and their aides, a few servants and bookkeepers and so on, and NOT risk having A kidnapped. Strike one for the boat trip.
Second, the time aspect. If Korvosa was important enough for Andoran, they would already have some sort of embassy there, so we can assume it's not. The question is how important is speed here, really? Is it a chance of a lifetime? Sure, splurge the money to get a number of people teleported there. Is it of moderate importance? Well, it can probably wait a little while, at least the two or three weeks sailing there would take. And while the boat trip costs very little, having all those you send being inactive during the trip itself is a bigger cost, which still doesn't match the cost of the teleportation spells.
All in all: Most likely, teleportation is used to transport things of great value (and thus vulnerable to banditry) quickly and unseen. Information has other options, dream, sending, and so on, and these are probably well used. When you need to transport people, establish embassies and the like, it's the old ways that rule the scene.
I would likely say that Diplomats going in 'exposed' will be second to a recon Team (very loyal and powerful PCs - based on the level of the 'Guest').
Even without an Embassy as destination - a 'safe house' destination seems likely.An intelligent Monarch would have a well guarded 'Arrivals and Departures lounge' for Diplomats and VIP Couriers.
There's a very good reason why nobles would mistrust teleport: death by interior decorating.
Your average noble is less original than they'd like to pretend. They may think their townhouses's sitting room with the tapesty depicting the noble gryphon crest of their house is unique, but it's not. Their ancestor had the tapesty copied from a fresco on the wall of his now abandoned hunting lodge deep in the forest, there's another copy on the wall of an old pub (which the publican recently paid a limner to spruce up to its original luster), and there's a fourth copy of the fresco on the inner wall of an ancient tomb, the same tomb the noble's ancestor plundered the shield with the gryphon crest from in an epic battle where he and his fellow adventurers barely escaped the resident undead, only turning, not destroying it. And the original artist who painted the tomb's fresco copied the gryphon from a (now lost) painting which the artist painted from life, from a particular crag where gryphons still land and Charm Monster could get one to pose for a painting.
Now, assuming a highly competent wizard who is intimately familiar with the noble's sitting room and that tapestry, there's zero of Mishap, a 2% chance of ending up somewhere completely random, and only a 1% chance that they accidentally end up in the abandoned hunting lodge, the old pub, the haunted tomb, or the crag which still has live gryphons which are not conveniently charmed at the moment.
This is Russian roulette already, but it gets worse. The noble decides to teleport back on the same day that his wife has engaged an overzealous new maid who has taken it upon herself to take that dusty old tapestry out in the garden and give it a good whacking with a carpet beater. Sans distinctive tapesty, the sitting room now looks nothing like what the wizard is thinking of, so they end up with a False Destination, which is another way of saying a viscious spin-cycle between Mishap and Similar Area. Even if the wizard and the noble are lucky enough to...
What a great idea for a scenario, consider it yoinked with many thanks!
Now consider that every commoner does this. You'll end up with a situation that's a complete gerontocracy, with the hordes of elderly 20th level commoners being the leaders of ANY society. They form the defense squad (embarrassing what poor eyesight can mean in terms of friendly fire) armed with nasty canes.No. They do NOT get a CR 1 encounter every week for 60 years.
Uhh, no, they don't. They wouldn't last the first week.
A wizened old 20th level commoner isn't likely to be someone a party would meet or care much about, for the most part. To say he can't exist because he doesn't fight monsters is a little silly, and not what's in the book.
Let's make a 20th level commoner. Does he have two-weapon fighting, dazzling display, cleave or shield focus? Probably not. He'd have great fortitude, improved iron will, toughness, skill focus in some commoner-type skills, endurance and throw sack of grain. Run would be a good feat for him, since that's what he'd do if he saw a monster. He'd have feats that would get him through the winter, not a fight with a dragon.
He didn't get XP fighting monsters. Neither did your BBEG. He's an abstraction written on a mini character sheet, with appropriate treasure. You chose his class and level, unless you played him in another campaign, and want to use him again with a fraction of his old treasure.
Would a 20th level commoner be dripping with magic items? No. His treasure would maybe be some land and some livestock. He's not an adventurer, so he has no need for such stuff. If he got it somehow, he'd probably sell it and buy something he could use (like more land or livestock). He probably has a really nice pitchfork, and a masterwork plow, since he's 20th level. His barn and his chicken coop are the best money can buy, made from the finest building wood, and expertly painted. He could have a champion riding horse, but a warhorse? What for? He'd ride away from a battle, not into it.
He's not likely to have a chest full of gold, since he mostly barters for things, and if he had that much money he'd retire somewhere safe, then become disillusioned and drink himself to death, since the other idle rich really won't accept him as an equal. Like a lotto winner, he may just squander his fortune. If he's smart, he'll go back to the farm with a new appreciation of the simple life, and maybe build a shrine to the farm goddess or send his kids to some school or other in the big city. Oh yeah, commoners are likely to have living relatives and probably kids, unlike adventurers. He'd want to get useful things he can leave to his family when he dies, or maybe pay a cleric to cure his wife's illness, if he can afford it.
Other commoners would come from miles around to get his advice on killing weeds and raising chickens. Rulers don't notice him until tax time. They might know he's a good farmer, if they care about such things.
He's got 20 levels of blah. He and his cabal of scheming high-level nobodies wouldn't last 5 rounds against a low-level party, if the party was warped enough to attack commoners. Commoners wouldn't attack a party, so they're no threat. A horde of geriatric commoners with full plate and magic weapons is absurd. You're as likely to find a wizard fighting a dragon with a dagger when he's got 9th level spells. He wouldn't DO that. They wouldn't do that.
In my world, there are those rare, exceptionally gifted people who can live and struggle, to finally achieve the very heights of averageness. Most will never be so lucky, and die before they get 70 hp and still-lousy saves.
They're unremarkable to anyone who's powerful, but are good at what they do, and are generally well-regarded by other commoners. The game tells me a 20th level commoner can exist. Why couldn't he?
You don't see 20th level wizards on every street corner. 20th level commoners would also be rare, but they're out there, unnoticed, if they're doing it right.
Those that want to get somewhere unnoticed are the ones using teleport--spies and assassins. They command prices that allow them to hire a wizard they know of correct temperment and tight lips to send them if speed is of the essence. Otherwise, put on a disguise.